Unions Demand Return Of Teachers Allowances

Seachmall

cursai wrote: »

But wheres the incentive to not be. €150+/- is not much.
THAT has to be sorted first.

And here-in lies the problem.

€150 a week is a lot more money.

I'm curious as to how much you earn when an extra €7000 a year isn't considered substantial.

micropig

Naomi00 wrote: »

...what exactly is your point? genuine question btw

It's generally taken that the level of education in Ireland is a lot higher than most other countries. And as for the amount of years, there were girls from Slovakia (on of the top countries on that list) on an exchange year in my school last year. They stay in secondary school for much longer, which is just really drawn out. I think it's because a lot of people don't go to college so staying in school longer is a good option for them.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76851841&postcount=143

Direct comparison with uk
Ireland has no where near the best education system


(we used to but then got cocky and stopped trying)

Lord TSC

Other than begrudgery, I don't get what the argument is for shorter summer holidays. If a teacher is bad and kids aren't getting a good education in 9 months a year, what makes people think that an extra month or two will improve anything? Likewise, if a student is doing really well and a teacher is good during the 9 months, is there that need for students to study for another 2 or three months of the year? The summer holidays should primarily be for kids to be kids and for families to have time to spend as families, and teachers are going to get time off as a result.

It constantly strikes me that the people who argue for longer school years are the ones who don't actually value education or are interested in their kids learning more, but are the ones who simply want rid of their kids for longer or who are just bitter about the jobs teachers have chosen. If there's an actual argument that longer school terms increases an educational value for students somewhere, far enough, but this begrudgery annoys the hell out of me...

Doc Ruby

Private sector pay is set by the market usually, which means if you have skills that are both hard to find and are useful, you will get paid well. Its also a factor of how much you can return to the company, a good sales rep can earn hundreds of thousands but they might bring in millions. The qualifications argument while it has some merit doesn't really stand up.

What's really missing from the picture is some sort of quality control. There needs to be a tracking system that builds up a clear picture of a teacher's performance over months or years, and then removes those who are underperforming. I think most people would be alright with teachers getting good pay and conditions as long as they were worth it, but we all knew the few teachers who rolled up into school drunk after lunch wearing their pioneer pin, and they spoil it for the rest.

I don't think the unions will find any kind of public support for protests in this day and age.

Naomi00

micropig wrote: »

Did you check out the direct comparison with the UK link?


It makes better reading - easier to see the direct comparison? Heres one

duration of secondary school
Ireland 5 years ranked 167th
uk 7 years ranked 27th - 40% more than Ireland

You still didn't really say what you're on about.

The education system in the UK is useless and that's well known. Most of them don't even finish school, they call GCSE results 'qualifications' which here would be like treating your Junior Cert results as a big deal which they aren't.

I still don't see what point your trying to make which is probably why no one replied to your post earlier. If you could make it more clear that would be better, statistics don't really mean anything because every country has different exams etc.

micropig

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Other than begrudgery, I don't get what the argument is for shorter summer holidays. If a teacher is bad and kids aren't getting a good education in 9 months a year, what makes people think that an extra month or two will improve anything? Likewise, if a student is doing really well and a teacher is good during the 9 months, is there that need for students to study for another 2 or three months of the year? The summer holidays should primarily be for kids to be kids and for families to have time to spend as families, and teachers are going to get time off as a result.

It constantly strikes me that the people who argue for longer school years are the ones who don't actually value education or are interested in their kids learning more, but are the ones who simply want rid of their kids for longer or who are just bitter about the jobs teachers have chosen. If there's an actual argument that longer school terms increases an educational value for students somewhere, far enough, but this begrudgery annoys the hell out of me...

Facts an figures speak louder than begrudgery
Check out the link in the post above yours

Doc Ruby

cursai wrote: »

Im not arguing the downsides of being unemployed. But wheres the incentive to not be. €150+/- is not much.
THAT has to be sorted first.

Seriously if its that great quit teaching and go on the dole. There's no future on the dole, no hope. Teaching is a career.

micropig

Naomi00 wrote: »

You still didn't really say what you're on about.

The education system in the UK is useless and that's well known. Most of them don't even finish school, they call GCSE results 'qualifications' which here would be like treating your Junior Cert results as a big deal which they aren't.

I still don't see what point your trying to make which is probably why no one replied to your post earlier. If you could make it more clear that would be better, statistics don't really mean anything because every country has different exams etc.

OK you want me to compare it to Germany for you...hang on

lividduck

Here we again, another group of overpaid under qualified public servants demanding over the top payments!
Time has come to privatise education, lets face it the private sector will always deliver a better service, more economically and with greater flexibility.

c_man

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Other than begrudgery, I don't get what the argument is for shorter summer holidays. If a teacher is bad and kids aren't getting a good education in 9 months a year, what makes people think that an extra month or two will improve anything? Likewise, if a student is doing really well and a teacher is good during the 9 months, is there that need for students to study for another 2 or three months of the year? The summer holidays should primarily be for kids to be kids and for families to have time to spend as families, and teachers are going to get time off as a result.

Fair enough point. But during Summer time, do you agree with 'full time' teachers getting paid extra for supervising/correcting the Junior and Leaving Certs? I would have thought that should be part of the job...

midlandsmissus

louiseok01 wrote: »

Dole + rent allowance + fuel allowance= 256 euros per week

New teachers will only get 144 euro more after tax etc and will not get a medical card.

I did a degree + MA + Hdip and am will be getting paid 144 euro more than people on the dole...

Degree fees were 20, OOO EURO
MA was 15, 000
Hdip was 10, 000

this is just fees not including extra loans that were taken out for living expenses....how do they expect new teachers to pay back fees and loans and put food on the table?

Regarding the hours and holidays, teachers use this time to prepare lesson plans, fill out reports, do corrections etc for the following year. When a teacher finishes at 3 he or she spends at least 2-3 hours that evening correcting and preparing lessons for the following day.

At the end of the day education in general is going down the drain in Ireland, class sizes are crazy, nearly 40 students to one teacher in some schools. To add insult to injury, the gov want to pay teachers the min wage.

I can see your argument, but what you are not taking into account is that there are people on the dole WITH degrees and Masters.

Naomi00

micropig wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76851841&postcount=143

Direct comparison with uk
Ireland has no where near the best education system


(we used to but then got cocky and stopped trying)

The Leaving Cert is a much higher level than most countries exams. In the US you don't do work like that until college. Their exams are multiple choice, Compare that with the huge courses you have to cover in the LC. Whether you like it or not the standard in Ireland is far higher than most countries. I don't know why you're so adament about those statistics, they mean nothing.

micropig

micropig wrote: »

OK you want me to compare it to Germany for you...hang on

Compared with Germany:
http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Germany/Ireland

Still not pretty reading :mad:

Lord TSC

There needs to be a tracking system that builds up a clear picture of a teacher's performance over months or years, and then removes those who are underperforming.

First off, I do accept there needs to be a way to deal with "bad" teachers.

BUT!

How do we take on board "poor" students when dealing with underpreformance issues? Such a system presupposes all kids start with the same abilities and same potential, when that's simply not true in the slightest. Although many will not want to admit it, every class has trouble makers and kids who will struggle intellectually, and a system which punishes teachers for underpreforming could potentially punish teachers not because they are poor teachers but because they teach classes with difficulties; punish teachers who are trying their best but because of the facilities or abilities of the school cannot maintain high levels of performances.

Fair enough point. But during Summer time, do you agree with 'full time' teachers getting paid extra for supervising/correcting the Junior and Leaving Certs? I would have thought that should be part of the job...

If it's optional, you've got to pay extra. Otherwise what's the incentive? I get the point that it should be standard, but right now it's not, so if you don't pay, you won't get people correcting them, and you certainly won't get people correcting them properly.

EDIT: Just to add, if paying brings a higher level of quality control in something as important as LC corrections, then I do think extra pay is vital...

micropig

Naomi00 wrote: »

The Leaving Cert is a much higher level than most countries exams. In the US you don't do work like that until college. Their exams are multiple choice, Compare that with the huge courses you have to cover in the LC. Whether you like it or not the standard in Ireland is far higher than most countries. I don't know why you're so adament about those statistics, they mean nothing.

Don't kid yourself the leaving certificate is harder than what other countries study:p


Its the structure of the exams, cramming years of work in in a couple of hours thats the problem;)

Link please (bolded section)

Where To

Ireland in microcosm.

Everyone wants.
No one wants to pay.

Naomi00

Naomi00 wrote: »

The Leaving Cert is a much higher level than most countries exams. In the US you don't do work like that until college. Their exams are multiple choice, Compare that with the huge courses you have to cover in the LC. Whether you like it or not the standard in Ireland is far higher than most countries. I don't know why you're so adament about those statistics, they mean nothing.

lol!!!
You must be joking

Our standard is absolutely appalling. Honours french exam is almost entirely in English ffs. It's embarrassing.

Doc Ruby

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

How do we take on board "poor" students when dealing with underpreformance issues? Such a system presupposes all kids start with the same abilities and same potential, when that's simply not true in the slightest. Although many will not want to admit it, every class has trouble makers and kids who will struggle intellectually, and a system which punishes teachers for underpreforming could potentially punish teachers not because they are poor teachers but because they teach classes with difficulties; punish teachers who are trying their best but because of the facilities or abilities of the school cannot maintain high levels of performances.

Oh hey I get it, and you can't just grade teachers on exam results because they end up "teaching to the test", ignoring all other parts of the curriculum.

But you certainly can get quality control measures in place based on a broad cross section of techniques, including ongoing dialogue with teachers themselves. The only question is why aren't they in place already, for something a vital as the education of the children of the country.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

EDIT: Just to add, if paying brings a higher level of quality control in something as important as LC corrections, then I do think extra pay is vital...

Quite the opposite in fact, if you pay too well you just get people who want the money and have no interest in doing the job well and professionally. There's a balance to be struck.

micropig

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

First off, I do accept there needs to be a way to deal with "bad" teachers.

BUT!

How do we take on board "poor" students when dealing with underpreformance issues? Such a system presupposes all kids start with the same abilities and same potential, when that's simply not true in the slightest. Although many will not want to admit it, every class has trouble makers and kids who will struggle intellectually, and a system which punishes teachers for underpreforming could potentially punish teachers not because they are poor teachers but because they teach classes with difficulties; punish teachers who are trying their best but because of the facilities or abilities of the school cannot maintain high levels of performances.


If it's optional, you've got to pay extra. Otherwise what's the incentive? I get the point that it should be standard, but right now it's not, so if you don't pay, you won't get people correcting them, and you certainly won't get people correcting them properly.

EDIT: Just to add, if paying brings a higher level of quality control in something as important as LC corrections, then I do think extra pay is vital...

a)Teachers are trained to plan & teach differentiated work for classes (at least they should be learning this on the hdip)

b)Reduce the upper level of teachers salaries and employ more SNAs


c) we are not getting value for money. Ireland's education system is in a diabolical state Some links floating around there with figures

I Heart Internet

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Other than begrudgery, I don't get what the argument is for shorter summer holidays. If a teacher is bad and kids aren't getting a good education in 9 months a year, what makes people think that an extra month or two will improve anything? Likewise, if a student is doing really well and a teacher is good during the 9 months, is there that need for students to study for another 2 or three months of the year? The summer holidays should primarily be for kids to be kids and for families to have time to spend as families, and teachers are going to get time off as a result.

It constantly strikes me that the people who argue for longer school years are the ones who don't actually value education or are interested in their kids learning more, but are the ones who simply want rid of their kids for longer or who are just bitter about the jobs teachers have chosen. If there's an actual argument that longer school terms increases an educational value for students somewhere, far enough, but this begrudgery annoys the hell out of me...

It is not cost-effective to have school buildings empty for 3-4 months of the year.

It is not cost effective to have employees on paid leave for 3-4 months of the year.

One extra month of teaching would mean upwards of 120 extra hours of teaching time. If this teaching time is somewhere near as useful as any other teaching time throughout the year then surely there is an educational benefit. If there's not an educational benefit to this 120 hours then by extension you could say that there is no educational benefit in sending a child to school at all.

Also, it is NOT unreasonable for parents to take there own child care needs into accout when considering these issues. To suggest that a parent "wants rid" of their child is false and a throw-away insult.

Someone asked how I would verify a teacher's performance, as if it was akin to the difficulty of putting man on the moon......

- independent peer review either through sit-ins, teaching practice, cctv??
- exam results (yes.......results are important....despite a myriad of other variables)
- submission by teachers of subject plans, etc for review
- evaluation by headmasters
- evaluation by students (they're usually more honest than we might think....it works well at 3rd level)

There are a lot of ways to verify whether a teacher does a good job or not.It is not beyond the wit of man. Currently we use none of these and even if we did nothing can be done about a bad teacher except wait..........................................................

c_man

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

If it's optional, you've got to pay extra. Otherwise what's the incentive? I get the point that it should be standard, but right now it's not, so if you don't pay, you won't get people correcting them, and you certainly won't get people correcting them properly.

Could just put it as standard into new teachers contracts. I'm sure they can spare some time from those Summer planning lessons.

As for the bold part, any teacher who is incapable of correcting an exam paper should be fired on the spot. Make room for someone who can do the job, just like every other industry.

Lord TSC

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Oh hey I get it, and you can't just grade teachers on exam results because they end up "teaching to the test", ignoring all other parts of the curriculum.

But you certainly can get quality control measures in place based on a broad cross section of techniques, including ongoing dialogue with teachers themselves. The only question is why aren't they in place already, for something a vital as the education of the children of the country.


Quite the opposite in fact, if you pay too well you just get people who want the money and have no interest in doing the job well and professionally. There's a balance to be struck.

Agreed with both there. Can't deny either things.

micropig

where do i go from here wrote: »

Ireland in microcosm.

Everyone wants.
No one wants to pay.

It might want microcosm

But it''s going to get micropig:p

frag420

Gophur wrote: »

Why should the State have to pay more to a teacher because of his/her qualifications, if he/she is doing the exact same job as someone with lesser qualifications?

All the degrees you can get will not necessarily make you a better teacher.

Irish teachers are paid very well, even under the new scales.

Do you not understand that we cannot continue to
1. borrow the money to pay Public/Civil Servants
and
2. continue to pay our Public/Civil Servants (including teachers) well over the European averages, while complaining about the interest rates we're paying on bail-out funding.

Teaching is a hard job. It's also a very cushy job. Class hours are very small and holidays are generous.

Then why did you not study to become a teacher then. Even the kids in school lmow about the cool holidays teachers get.

They also know about the exams the teachers have to correct, the supervision they have to do, the extra curricular activities they have to attend..................all outside of school hours.

Regarding performance teachers are there to teach. Students are there to learn. You cant force that on anyone

I aint a teacher but I respect the work that they do.

cursai

jester77 wrote: »

WOW is all I can say to that. Ireland is totally f*cked if people consider €150 a week more than the dole not worth working for

Oh come on. Its the idea that people are getting more than half your wages for doing nothing. Thats the non incentive! And its understandable. For people who work.
I really dont understand the shock and horror.

lividduck

Southeast1 wrote: »

Time is factored in for some prep and planning (no where near what actually takes place per week though) but not for extra curricular activities which are the life blood of schools.

As for contact hours 22 per week plus up to 3 periods of supervision and substitution. But in terms of teaching 22. I don't think that any great secret.

It works out at 735 hours per year.
For the purpose of comparison,
Belgium is 724 hours
Germany 715 hours
Norway 633
Sweden 579
Finland (of whom so much is spoken) 592

The OECD average is 703
EU average is 661

And the average worker on a 38 hour week? over 1,700 hours.
You have one hard neck!

vamos!

bluewolf wrote: »

lol!!!
You must be joking

Our standard is absolutely appalling. Honours french exam is almost entirely in English ffs. It's embarrassing.

I beg to differ. The aural section is answered in English or Irish. This proves that the students have actually understood what they have heard. The two reading comprehensions have ONE question to be answered in English at the end. This is usually worth 10 marks. Students need to demonstrate that they have understood the text as a whole. It is not basic information retrieval. The oral exam is in obviously in French and the 3 written tasks are also in French. How on earth is that an exam which is almost entirely in English?

As for all of the posters who thanked the blatantly incorrect post, have you any idea what you are talking about, or did you see another opportunity indulge in a spot of ill-informed, petty .... teacher bashing?

partyatmygaff

bluewolf wrote: »

lol!!!
You must be joking

Our standard is absolutely appalling. Honours french exam is almost entirely in English ffs. It's embarrassing.

No it isn't. The only section that is in English are the questions in the aural comprehension (Which accounts for a small portion of the total mark). The written paper and the oral exam which accounts for the bulk of the marks is entirely in French.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a good old "Ireland sucks" rant.

I Heart Internet

frag420 wrote: »

Then why did you not study to become a teacher then.

I think this needs CAPSLOCK:

VERY FEW TAXPAYERS WHO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE PRODUCTIVITY AND SALARY OF TEACHERS WANT TO BECOME TEACHERS!

They simply want to ensure their tax euros are getting value for money and are particularly agrieved when teaching unions start giving teh poor mouth sob story.

Implying that everyone who comments negatively towards teachers secretly wants to be one is not big and it's not clever.

frag420 wrote: »

Regarding performance teachers are there to teach. Students are there to learn. You cant force that on anyone

You can't force students to learn but we must get to a stage where we can force teachers who are piss-poor at their jobs to improve.

I've gone back to check the past papers, and there are more questions in french than I remembered.
So, I was wrong, my bad

Jess16

Parents often understandably complain about how exhausted they are, how they never have a moment for themselves and how demanding it is to have children or even one child.

Though for some reason, a teacher taking care of and formally educating thirty children inside one room, for six hours a day, seems to be widely regarded as some kind of walk in the park.

It is not. It is intense, it is a huge responsibility and if you've ever experienced your child being demanding, then think for a moment how you might cope with 30 of them -all vying for your attention at once. This is not a sob story but a small insight into the reality of what teaching actually entails.

Discuss salary cuts by all means but please do not underestimate the difficulty of a job you have never done.

tayto lover

micropig wrote: »

Did you check out the direct comparison with the UK link?


It makes better reading - easier to see the direct comparison? Heres one

duration of secondary school
Ireland 5 years ranked 167th
uk 7 years ranked 27th - 40% more than Ireland

Surely that has nothing to do with the teachers so why mention it ?

micropig

tayto lover wrote: »

Surely that has nothing to do with the teachers so why mention it ?

Country Duration of secondary Education Education Attainment Secondary Education spending (% of GDP)
Ireland 5 years (rank 162th|) 22%(rank 18th) 5.5% Rank 44th (4% more than UK) & (20% more that germany)
UK 7years (rank27th) *40% more than Ireland 37% (rank 13th 68% more than Ireland) 5.3% ranked 47th
Germany 9 years (ranked 1st) 80% more than Ireland 59% (ranked 3rd) 168% more than Ireland 4.6%( Ranked 69th)


If these figures are correct our children spend less time in secondary education, achieve less and cost more than these other two countries and this has nothing to do with teachers?

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Germany/Ireland/Education


http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Ireland/United-Kingdom/Education


I asked any teachers that where here to comment and they all disappeared rambling about us having the best education in the world and no fact/figures to back it up

boobar

Freddie59 wrote: »

Are these people in the real world?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0201/teachers.html

The Teachers' Union of Ireland has called for the immediate reversal of a Government decision to suspend the payment of allowances to new teachers.

The decision reduces the pay of new entrants by up to several thousand euro.
The Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland has also strongly criticised the decision, which both unions say was taken unilaterally with no consultation.

The move affects allowances paid to teachers over and above their basic salary.

A teacher with an Honours Higher Diploma gets an additional €1,200 per year, for example, while an Honours Masters Degree attracts an extra €5,500.

I'm glad that they are representing the interests of their members.

Having said that I think the allowance paid for the Honours Masters Degree is too generous. I think myself €3000 would be much more appropriate.

It is important to recognise extra qualifications that teachers gain but I would like to see a more focussed allowance programme whereby higher allowances are paid to teachers who gain Masters & PHDs in disciplines where there is a shortage e.g. mathematics, IT, sceinces etc

micropig

Jess16 wrote: »

Parents often understandably complain about how exhausted they are, how they never have a moment for themselves and how demanding it is to have children or even one child.

Though for some reason, a teacher taking care of and formally educating thirty children inside one room, for six hours a day, seems to be widely regarded as some kind of walk in the park.

It is not. It is intense, it is a huge responsibility and if you've ever experienced your child being demanding, then think for a moment how you might cope with 30 of them -all vying for your attention at once. This is not a sob story but a small insight into the reality of what teaching actually entails.

Discuss salary cuts by all means but please do not underestimate the difficulty of a job you have never done.

I have done it;) That's how I know exactly whats involved:p

micropig

boobar wrote: »

I'm glad that they are representing the interests of their members.

Having said that I think the allowance paid for the Honours Masters Degree is too generous. I think myself €3000 would be much more appropriate.

It is important to recognise extra qualifications that teachers gain but I would like to see a more focussed allowance programme whereby higher allowances are paid to teachers who gain Masters & PHDs in disciplines where there is a shortage e.g. mathematics, IT, sceinces etc

Yes so am I, its a bigger pity there not representing the interests of the students:(

midlandsmissus

cursai wrote: »

Oh come on. Its the idea that people are getting more than half your wages for doing nothing. Thats the non incentive! And its understandable. For people who work.
I really dont understand the shock and horror.

I'm sorry but you walked right into that one.

Now you know how we feel about holidays/part time hours

You're saying why work for something when others are getting a similiar amount for doing less.

Why should we work a 37.5 hour week for the same/less money then some-one on a 22 hour week working 9 months out of the year? Where's the incentive there?

And that's why teachers will never win any argument with the public when they are looking for more.

boobar

micropig wrote: »

Yes so am I, its a bigger pity there not representing the interests of the students:(

Fair point Micropig, cuts in this area will inevitably affect students.

The exodus of teachers in late February as a result of the early retirement scheme will leave some major challenges for those facing in to major exams like the Leaving Cert.

micropig

% that find school boring

UK 54%

Ireland 67% (24%more than UK)

I smiled at that one but I'm not surprised

micropig

boobar wrote: »

Fair point Micropig,cuts in this area will inevitably affect students

The exodus of teachers in late February as a result of the early retirement scheme will leave some major challenges for those facing in to major exams like the Leaving Cert.

Its not just about the cuts how can teachers justify their large salaries, holidays and standards of teaching when levels of attainment of the students are so low compared to other countries?

I thought leaving cert teachers who where retiring would stay on till June. Was there not talk about this at one stage?

Lu Tze

vamos! wrote: »

I beg to differ. The aural section is answered in English or Irish. This proves that the students have actually understood what they have heard. The two reading comprehensions have ONE question to be answered in English at the end. This is usually worth 10 marks. Students need to demonstrate that they have understood the text as a whole. It is not basic information retrieval. The oral exam is in obviously in French and the 3 written tasks are also in French. How on earth is that an exam which is almost entirely in English?

As for all of the posters who thanked the blatantly incorrect post, have you any idea what you are talking about, or did you see another opportunity indulge in a spot of ill-informed, petty .... teacher bashing?

Physics course was made simpler. When my bro did the LC, there was a vast and comprehensive electrical section, when i did it almost all this was removed as it had been seen as too difficult, only left with the wheatstone bridge. That may have been removed since.

This is not isolated, i have heard the same of chemistry though do not recall what was removed. The maths papers have been getting easier, though that was my opinion when doing them prior to LC.

boobar

micropig wrote: »

I thought leaving cert teachers who where retiring would stay on till June. Was there not talk about this at one stage?

I can't be sure but I think it's optional for them to stay on until June and that they would return on a basic rate of pay.

tayto lover

micropig wrote: »

Country Duration of secondary Education Education Attainment Secondary Education spending (% of GDP)
Ireland 5 years (rank 162th|) 22%(rank 18th) 5.5% Rank 44th (4% more than UK) & (20% more that germany)
UK 7years (rank27th) *40% more than Ireland 37% (rank 13th 68% more than Ireland) 5.3% ranked 47th
Germany 9 years (ranked 1st) 80% more than Ireland 59% (ranked 3rd) 168% more than Ireland 4.6%( Ranked 69th)


If these figures are correct our children spend less time in secondary education, achieve less and cost more than these other two countries and this has nothing to do with teachers?

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Germany/Ireland/Education


http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Ireland/United-Kingdom/Education


I asked any teachers that where here to comment and they all disappeared rambling about us having the best education in the world and no fact/figures to back it up

As far as I know teachers have no say in the length of a child's education. It's the Department surely.

micropig

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I'm sorry but you walked right into that one.

Now you know how we feel about holidays/part time hours

You're saying why work for something when others are getting a similiar amount for doing less.

Why should we work a 37.5 hour week for the same/less money then some-one on a 22 hour week working 9 months out of the year? Where's the incentive there?

And that's why teachers will never win any argument with the public when they are looking for more.

Why should they get paid larger salaries and have longer holidays than teachers in other countries when they standard of teaching they are providing is way below par

e standard of education in Ireland is dismal when you compare it to other countries

cursai

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I'm sorry but you walked right into that one.

Now you know how we feel about holidays/part time hours

You're saying why work for something when others are getting a similiar amount for doing less.

Why should we work a 37.5 hour week for the same/less money then some-one on a 22 hour week working 9 months out of the year? Where's the incentive there?

And that's why teachers will never win any argument with the public when they are looking for more.

Thats not fair. Teachers do work a couple of hours at home as well. i can attest to that. im not a teacher. the girlf is.
this is silly anyway. Everyone blames everyone else for having a cushy number when there lads out there who never worked a day in their lives LAUGHING at us mugs.

Jess16

micropig wrote: »

I have done it;) That's how I know exactly whats involved:p

Well then you'll know all about working 18 hour days for 4 months straight in your final year of training in order to meet the standard that's expected of you. Though I think the real issue here might be not all teachers working to the same high standards and the rest of us being branded as a result.

micropig

tayto lover wrote: »

As far as I know teachers have no say in the length of a child's education. It's the Department surely.

Ok fair point just to put the figures in some context


Unioins talk to the departments you know;)

Naomi00

micropig wrote: »

Country Duration of secondary Education Education Attainment Secondary Education spending (% of GDP)
Ireland 5 years (rank 162th|) 22%(rank 18th) 5.5% Rank 44th (4% more than UK) & (20% more that germany)
UK 7years (rank27th) *40% more than Ireland 37% (rank 13th 68% more than Ireland) 5.3% ranked 47th
Germany 9 years (ranked 1st) 80% more than Ireland 59% (ranked 3rd) 168% more than Ireland 4.6%( Ranked 69th)


If these figures are correct our children spend less time in secondary education, achieve less and cost more than these other two countries and this has nothing to do with teachers?

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Germany/Ireland/Education


http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Ireland/United-Kingdom/Education


I asked any teachers that where here to comment and they all disappeared rambling about us having the best education in the world and no fact/figures to back it up

Ah just give up already.


Those figures are pulled out of the sky. Scroll down on some of the other sections, the shíte they've made up about Ireland's literacy rates made me laugh. They're all made up, where do you think they got those figures from? It has nothing to back up any of the info, I'd advise everyone else not to bother reading that tripe.

micropig

Jess16 wrote: »

Well then you'll know all about working 18 hour days for 4 months straight in your final year of training in order to meet the standard that's expected of you. Though I think the real issue here might be not all teachers working to the same high standards and the rest of us being branded as a result.

Yes, I do and I know that the years you are training your workload is actually heavier than when you are qualified. The PGDE year is hard no 2 ways about it but none of the college work to do when you qualify

Naomi00

micropig wrote: »

Why should they get paid larger salaries and have longer holidays than teachers in other countries when they standard of teaching they are providing is way below par

e standard of education in Ireland is dismal when you compare it to other countries

Teaching is one of the most stressful jobs you could have. The holidays are necessary, especially for secondary school students too, otherwise it would end up in a heart attack/breakdown of some sort, which is not up to you to decide.