Unions Demand Return Of Teachers Allowances

Jess16

micropig wrote: »

Why should they get paid larger salaries and have longer holidays than teachers in other countries when they standard of teaching they are providing is way below par

Are you going to continue to make sweeping statements in absolute terms or do you have inside information on the standard of education provided by every teacher in the country?

EDIT:

micropig wrote: »

I know that the years you are training your workload is actually heavier than when you are qualified. The PGDE year is hard no 2 ways about it but none of the college work to do when you qualify

Not having 'college work' does not mean less work, or at least not for those of us who do our job properly.

micropig

Naomi00 wrote: »

Teaching is one of the most stressful jobs you could have. The holidays are necessary, especially for secondary school students too, otherwise it would end up in a heart attack/breakdown of some sort, which is not up to you to decide.

How do they cope then in the UK, they only have august off? I don't see teachers dying left right and centre?

micropig

Jess16 wrote: »

Are you going to continue to make sweeping statements in absolute terms or do you have inside information on the standard of education provided by every teacher in the country?

No but I have stastics I linked to:p Any figures there from you to contradict?

I hope you have, because the figures I used are terrible reading,:(

Seachmall

Naomi00 wrote: »

Those figures are pulled out of the sky.[...] It has nothing to back up any of the info

All those figures are sourced from either OECD or UNDP. If you hover over the relevant row it'll give you the exact source if you want to investigate yourself.

Naomi00

Micropig is just trolling, it's getting stupid now.

micropig

Naomi00 wrote: »

Ah just give up already.


Those figures are pulled out of the sky. Scroll down on some of the other sections, the shíte they've made up about Ireland's literacy rates made me laugh. They're all made up, where do you think they got those figures from? It has nothing to back up any of the info, I'd advise everyone else not to bother reading that tripe.

Link to other figures please, you can't just dismiss them without providing a link to show otherwise

Seachmall

Naomi00 wrote: »

Micropig is just trolling, it's getting stupid now.

He provided completely valid links to support his arguments and even formatted them in BBCode for your ease (and doing tables in BBCode is a pain in the arse).

You can't simply ignore them and claim he's trolling.

icescreamqueen

My friend who is a primary school teacher completed a masters degree in special education last year. It took 2 very intense years to complete on top of doing a full days teaching. She also funded the €10,000 to do it out of HER OWN POCKET. Of course she is entitled to the extra allowance!

Micky Dolenz

Naomi00 wrote: »

Teaching is one of the most stressful jobs you could have. The holidays are necessary, especially for secondary school students too, otherwise it would end up in a heart attack/breakdown of some sort, which is not up to you to decide.

Have you stats to back that up? As in, it's the most stressful job.

Jess16

micropig wrote: »

No but I have stastics I linked to:p Any figures there from you to contradict?

I hope you have, because the figures I used are terrible reading,:(

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that statistics can be manipulated in order to produce agenda driven results, often to justify political policies.

I sincerely hope you present information within the classroom more maturely than you do here " "

Ms. Pingui

Naomi00 wrote: »

Teaching is one of the most stressful jobs you could have. The holidays are necessary, especially for secondary school students too, otherwise it would end up in a heart attack/breakdown of some sort, which is not up to you to decide.

This is bull. There are plenty of stressful jobs out there, and I can assure you a lot of them are more stressful than teaching. These people don't all drop dead from heart attacks without the whole summer off so why should teachers? :rolleyes:

Seachmall

Jess16 wrote: »

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that statistics can be manipulated in order to produce agenda driven results, often to justify political policies.

And anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that statistics in these discussion are the only relevant bits of information. Everything else is opinion and hearsay.

If you disagree with the statistics you can either

1. Locate a source that contradicts them
2. Show the source, or extended sources, are not reliable
3. Accept that they're correct
4. Ignore them

Note: In some countries Option 4 is indicative of mental retardation.

Chucky the tree

Southeast1 wrote: »

400 a week!!!
The dole is nearly 200, plus rent allowance, medical card and a myriad of other benefits.

I really think people really need to ask themselves what sort of people do we want educating our children. If you pay that sort of money, high calibre people will not be attracted to teaching, and those that are will leave once they realise they cant make a career at it.

lol, can't make a career on 28k for 9 months work. Only in Ireland would you hear this line. All your post highlights is how high social welfare is and that it'll be cut in the next budget. It also shows how it's hardly surprising our teaching standards are plummteting when all teachers care about is money an would nearly rather be on the dole than teach.

Southeast1 wrote: »

http://budget.irishexaminer.com/news/budget-2011-questions-and-answers-484800.html

According to this 2010 average industrial wage is 36,000

Alot more than is being proposed for new teachers.

Pretty sure the average industrial worker doesn't do 9 months every year though. You can't compare teaching to an average 9-5 job.

micropig

Naomi00 wrote: »

Bitter much?

This seems to be the only arguement AH can come up with.

Southeast1 wrote: »

People say this discussion is not based on begrudgery but yet ever second post is about the lifestyles and holiday entitlements of teachers, instead of what is supposed to be about. The effect of these cuts on new teachers which ultimately will affect the quality of education in Irish schools for years to come.

On the subject of holidays. Can anyone actually show me any evidence to suggest that a shortening of the school year will have any positive impact on the quality of education in Ireland?

Naomi00 wrote: »

You still didn't really say what you're on about.

The education system in the UK is useless and that's well known. Most of them don't even finish school, they call GCSE results 'qualifications' which here would be like treating your Junior Cert results as a big deal which they aren't.

I still don't see what point your trying to make which is probably why no one replied to your post earlier. If you could make it more clear that would be better, statistics don't really mean anything because every country has different exams etc.

Naomi00 wrote: »

Teaching is one of the most stressful jobs you could have. The holidays are necessary, especially for secondary school students too, otherwise it would end up in a heart attack/breakdown of some sort, which is not up to you to decide.

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

This is bull. There are plenty of stressful jobs out there, and I can assure you a lot of them are more stressful than teaching. These people don't all drop dead from heart attacks without the whole summer off so why should teachers? :rolleyes:

Yes they will die of heart attacks - Stastics provided by teachers in their above average jobs

Stereomaniac

I think teachers earn every cent that they make, and that they aren't valued enough. People give out about the length of their holidays and the amount they get paid. Well, I personally wouldn't like to be in school for the rest of my working life, as they are. Then I hear people giving out that they have the NERVE to protest and look for more than they have. Well who could blame them? The way the country is at the moment, it's every man for himself, and you might as well just try to take as much as you can get. So everyone chill the beans and please don't give out to me for not contributing more "intelligence."

gurramok

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I think teachers earn every cent that they make, and that they aren't valued enough. People give out about the length of their holidays and the amount they get paid. Well, I personally wouldn't like to be in school for the rest of my working life, as they are. Then I hear people giving out that they have the NERVE to protest and look for more than they have. Well who could blame them? The way the country is at the moment, it's every man for himself, and you might as well just try to take as much as you can get. So everyone chill the beans and please don't give out to me for not contributing more "intelligence."

The Gardai and the Prison Officers must have an easier job than the teachers who have to put up with from a bunch of spotty kids:rolleyes:

Nice one, greed rules. Assuming you are a genuine supporter of the teachers stance, you are saying that the teachers should screw everyone else even though their glorious leader from the Labour party said Ireland is in receivership.

Do those last two words "in receivership" mean anything to teachers assuming they are an intelligent bunch?!

Cian92

Freddie59 wrote: »

Our daughter is training to be an accountant (final year). Earning less than that. Ireland 2012. Suck it up.

As soon as your daughter qualifies she will end up earning way more than the teacher. She is a trainee Accountant, not a fully qualified accountant, of course she should be earning in and around €20k. Get over it, it will be about 34 to 40 k when she qualifies.

Jess16

Seachmall wrote: »

And anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that statistics in these discussion are the only relevant bits of information. Everything else is opinion and hearsay.

If you disagree with the statistics you can either

1. Locate a source that contradicts them
2. Show the source, or extended sources, are not reliable
3. Accept that they're correct
4. Ignore them

Note: In some countries Option 4 is indicative of mental retardation.

I am genuinely sick of people referring to statistics as though they're the only legitimate source of information to address disparaging views. The reality is that statistics are every bit as biased as the study they were made to assess and the mind that produced the formula to construct them -and most often a crutch for those unable to form a substantial argument of their own:

Or as Mark Twain succinctly put it: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics"

oppenheimer1

finlma wrote: »

Of course they should get allowances. If you're more qualified in the private sector you get better pay as you offer more to the job. A teacher with a Masters degree should be paid more than a teacher with a normal pass degree.

It's very shortsighted to get rid of allowances. They cost very little in the grand scheme of things. If they are not offered then no one will look to educate themselves further. We need to be investing in education and improving the skillset of teachers. Getting rid of allowances is a retrograde step.

By the way a new teacher entering the profession now starts on less than €28k a year. Their weekly take home pay is not a whole lot better than the minimum wage. If we expect to get good quality teachers then we're going the wrong way about it.

If a teacher worked normal hours that 28k would equate to over €56k per annum.

Fuc 'em, they are the most mollycoddled profession in the country. An enormous number of them should be sacked for utter incompetence.


Additional qualifications in the private sector don't really affect your basic wage... it affects your career progression. It should be the same for teachers.

Naomi00

That's not funny at all, I know of people who things like that and much worse have had happen to them. I don't know why you're all making light of things like that, your reactions are pretty disappointing really.

And I'm talking about the workload, etc and it's worse for students. Some people I know end up staying up half the night finishing work then have to get up early the next day and start it all again. No one could keep that up for an entire year. There's reasons why people drop out of school during the leaving cert, and now we have no other days off.

This thread has gone totally off topic and is now just full of people with chips on their shoulder complaining that school holidays are too long. There's plenty of reasons for the length, like I've just said it's mostly for the students.

Benicetomonty

I'm not sure people realise just how much discontent with the Croke Park Agreement there is amongst teachers as well as (what seems like) the rest of the world.

This latest measure will do nothing but create a bitter atmosphere of perfectly justified resentment between NQT's and their colleagues, and I completely agree with the earlier poster who said that it would never have been accepted unchallenged but for the complete incompetence of unions to date. It's also interesting how a more devastating cut, also directed at NQT's, that went through before Christmas received so little media attention. Why? Because the unions knew about it! They're only making a fuss now because they weren't told about it.

This can be rationalised any which way but it is nothing more than a pay cut, and worse, an unequal one. It'll be a miracle if CP lasts till 2014, regardless of which 'side' provides the straw that will break the camels back.

micropig

Hourly and daily rates of pay for part-time and substitute
teachers



Primary daily rate casual (qualified teacher) €164.26
Primary daily rate (unqualified) €115.12
Primary hourly rate (unqualified) €26.07
Post-primary hourly rate casual (qualified) €40.10
Post primary hourly rate (unqualified) €36.76
Supervision and Substitution  Hourly rate  €43.04 

http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/0040-2011_New_Pay_Scales_for_New_Appointees_to_Teaching_in_2011.pdf


For a poster who asked about substitute teachers-Is this not a good wage?

Seachmall

Jess16 wrote: »

I am genuinely sick of people referring to statistics as though they're the only legitimate source of information to address disparaging views. The reality is that statistics are every bit as biased as the study they were made to assess and the mind that produced the formula to construct them -and most often a crutch for those unable to form a substantial argument of their own:

Or as Mark Twain succinctly put it: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics"

While that's a fantastic quote you have there it doesn't do much to dismiss the statistics.

In a comparison of countries a statistical comparison is far more valuable then the opinion of biased parties.

If you want to dismiss the statistics you must show them to be unreliable either due to bias, outdatedness, inaccuracy, or show their use to be a violation of first principles.

You're suggesting they're both biased, and as a result, inaccurate. Care to demonstrate this?

You can't just dismiss them because you want to. They provide valid insights.

Naomi00

micropig wrote: »

Hourly and daily rates of pay for part-time and substitute
teachers



Primary daily rate casual (qualified teacher) €164.26
Primary daily rate (unqualified) €115.12
Primary hourly rate (unqualified) €26.07
Post-primary hourly rate casual (qualified) €40.10
Post primary hourly rate (unqualified) €36.76


http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/0040-2011_New_Pay_Scales_for_New_Appointees_to_Teaching_in_2011.pdf


For a poster who asked about substitute teachers-Is this not a good wage?

My mum is a substitute teacher.
While those numbers are good, you're not guaranteed work at all. You might get a day or two here and there, or a couple of weeks together, but after that you mightn't get a job for ages, so it's not as good as it sounds.

oppenheimer1

Naomi00 wrote: »

That's not funny at all, I know of people who things like that and much worse have had happen to them. I don't know why you're all making light of things like that, your reactions are pretty disappointing really.

And I'm talking about the workload, etc and it's worse for students. Some people I know end up staying up half the night finishing work then have to get up early the next day and start it all again. No one could keep that up for an entire year. There's reasons why people drop out of school during the leaving cert, and now we have no other days off.

This thread has gone totally off topic and is now just full of people with chips on their shoulder complaining that school holidays are too long. There's plenty of reasons for the length, like I've just said it's mostly for the students.

The long school holidays are an historic relic. Originally devised to allow children help their parents on the farm during the summer. I think that reason has long ceased to be valid.

Perhaps children wouldn't be failing maths and literacy if they spent longer in the classroom?

I would love to be minister for education and go thatcher on them. The teaching profession needs a sorting out thats long over due.

micropig

Naomi00 wrote: »

My mum is a substitute teacher.
While those numbers are good, you're not guaranteed work at all. You might get a day or two here and there, or a couple of weeks together, but after that you mightn't get a job for ages, so it's not as good as it sounds.

carpenters, plumbers, other skilled tradesmen do not get paid when they do not work

In fact most people don't get paid when they don't work:eek::eek::eek:

galwayrush

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I think teachers earn every cent that they make, and that they aren't valued enough. People give out about the length of their holidays and the amount they get paid. Well, I personally wouldn't like to be in school for the rest of my working life, as they are. Then I hear people giving out that they have the NERVE to protest and look for more than they have. Well who could blame them? The way the country is at the moment, it's every man for himself, and you might as well just try to take as much as you can get. So everyone chill the beans and please don't give out to me for not contributing more "intelligence."

Good teachers do earn every cent, bad teachers don't.

Benicetomonty

micropig wrote: »

Hourly and daily rates of pay for part-time and substitute
teachers



Primary daily rate casual (qualified teacher) €164.26
Primary daily rate (unqualified) €115.12
Primary hourly rate (unqualified) €26.07
Post-primary hourly rate casual (qualified) €40.10
Post primary hourly rate (unqualified) €36.76
Supervision and Substitution Hourly rate €43.04

http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/0040-2011_New_Pay_Scales_for_New_Appointees_to_Teaching_in_2011.pdf


For a poster who asked about substitute teachers-Is this not a good wage?

The objective words of course being substitute and part time :rolleyes:

It's not bad if it's for 12 months alright. Except it isn't. Also, my understanding is S and S will go for NQTs as a result of this legislation.

Naomi00

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The long school holidays are an historic relic. Originally devised to allow children help their parents on the farm during the summer. I think that reason has long ceased to be valid.

Perhaps children wouldn't be failing maths and literacy if they spent longer in the classroom?

I would love to be minister for education and go thatcher on them. The teaching profession needs a sorting out thats long over due.

Half the students in my year (leaving cert) are taking higher level maths.
No one failed maths in our school last year.

Yet every year people complain about levels of failure in maths etc.

So things like that are dependent on the school itself, not hours spent in a classroom. We spend 7 hours in school as it is, if you were attending a school you would know that the longer you're in there the less you can pay attention. So that extra hour or two would be wasted as no one would even be working.

micropig

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The long school holidays are an historic relic. Originally devised to allow children help their parents on the farm during the summer. I think that reason has long ceased to be valid.

Perhaps children wouldn't be failing maths and literacy if they spent longer in the classroom?

I would love to be minister for education and go thatcher on them. The teaching profession needs a sorting out thats long over due.

You should hear the nonsense and bitching that goes on in the staff room about how hard done by they are - Mostly by people who have never done anything only teach:rolleyes:

micropig

Failures in maths and science statistics

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1022934.shtml

Benicetomonty

micropig wrote: »

carpenters, plumbers, other skilled tradesmen do not get paid when they do not work

In fact most people don't get paid when they don't work:eek::eek::eek:

The problem there is there's a demand for teachers because the population is growing. Education is a right. Carpentry isn't.

Ms. Pingui

Benicetomonty wrote: »

The problem there is there's a demand for teachers because the population is growing. Education is a right. Carpentry isn't.

There's a huge surplus of teachers in this country is there not?

oppenheimer1

Naomi00 wrote: »

Half the students in my year (leaving cert) are taking higher level maths.
No one failed maths in our school last year.

Yet every year people complain about levels of failure in maths etc.

So things like that are dependent on the school itself, not hours spent in a classroom. We spend 7 hours in school as it is, if you were attending a school you would know that the longer you're in there the less you can pay attention. So that extra hour or two would be wasted as no one would even be working.

I'm talking about extra days in the year.

And the nations maths and literacy skills are falling despite what may be happening in your school.

micropig

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I'm talking about extra days in the year.

And the nations maths and literacy skills are falling despite what may be happening in your school.

See link in post 233 for stats

marknjb

a principle teacher who dose secteary for bom gets an allowance of 2800 per year yet if a parent on the board dose it they get nothing
it usally involves 7 or 8 meetings a year school secetary dose all the work
teachers get seven days off if they are getting married they only work 183 days a year if they cant work around that god love them

dillo2k10

I'm a student at the moment.

I've always wanted to be a teacher and I really believe that I would make a good teacher. I'm studying Finance and Economics with a minor in Geography (so I can teach Accountancy, Business Studies, Economics and Geography) and then I plan on doing a masters. But if the government keep attacking NQT's like this I won't be able to afford to be a teacher.

I will have no choice but to become something else, I'm sure I would be able to get a job that pays a lot more. I agree that teachers should be paid based on their performance, not experience and maybe some incentive to get a better qualification.

But the problem is that no once can suggest a suitable way of assessing teachers, but I think that it is something that really needs to be looked into. At the moment a teacher in a disadvantaged school in Ballymun, teaching students with behavioural issues could be doing such a good job that they are all getting A's but at the same time a teacher in Blackrock is just floating by doing the bare minimum and their students are getting B's based only on their own motivation. I believe that the first teacher should be paid a lot more.

I think that NQT's should start off on 36k for the first year. This would give them a lot of time to assess the teacher, if he/she is terrible their wages should be cut to 20k or just fired and if they are doing great it should be upped to 40k.(Much higher or much lower) They should continue to assess the teacher for the life of their teaching career and move their wages up or down based on performance regardless of how good they were in the past or how long they are teaching.

But the problem is that there isn't a good way of assessing them as of yet.

One way that I thought of, though could be expensive, would be to install cameras and mics in the classroom - only have them activated during class times.
The camera footage as well as the students grades could be a good indicator of how well the teacher is doing.
They wouldn't be constantly accessed just randomly, they could be assessed two years in a row or 5 years apart and the teacher wouldn't know when they were going to be assessed and so wont be able to temporarily modify their teaching practices to get by the assessment.

edit: Didn't read the whole thread so could be repeating stuff or ignoring something relevant someone already said.

Galwayguy35

The public sector doesnt seem to realise that we are living in different times to a few years ago when all their demands were granted. Sure its not fair that some wont get allowances that others have already but thats life, sometimes its not fair. Those of us in the private sector are just glad to have a job and have had to take pay cuts just so that the company/shop etc can stay open and keep us in work as we have no croke park agreement to fall back on. And i am one of those people on less on €400 a week that some found to be such a horrific wage to have to live on. The money isnt there muinteoiri so take it on the chin and accept the reality of the situation.

Thinking back over the teachers I had when in secondary school and the majority of them really weren't very good at their job. Two in particular were beyond woeful and could be used as the poster boys for the cut wages further birgade

My German teacher was the very definition of useless, she missed the 2 months leading up to the leaving cert as she was in rehab for alcoholism and the school didn't bother getting in a replacement. She was constantly hungover in class and missing weeks at a time during my years in the school. We made numerous complaints about her conduct but nothing was ever done about her.

There was also an unqualified teacher teaching English to leaving cert students. Thank Christ I didn't have him as he was supposed to be terrible. What he was doing teaching without his proper qualifications I'll never know but the school kept him on for over two years. Only 2 of his class of 20 something passed the pass paper in the Leaving and a handful dropped down to foundation on the day.

Lord TSC

Naomi00 wrote: »

My mum is a substitute teacher.
While those numbers are good, you're not guaranteed work at all. You might get a day or two here and there, or a couple of weeks together, but after that you mightn't get a job for ages, so it's not as good as it sounds.

This so much. In the 18 months since I've qualified, I've had 10 days of sub work, 4 of those in the last week. And truth be told, I'm the lucky one of my generation. I know people who qualified at the same time as me who have got no work. Its not that sub teachers are getting five days a week for the entire year, and it's actually getting harder and harder to get sub work.

Boulevardier

When it comes to exam stats, you just can't win. If the results get better then that is due to dumbing down standards. If they get worse, then its due to poor teaching.

CageWager

Lol at teaching being the most stressful job... sure, it's stressful, a lot of jobs are.

I'd love to stick a teacher in a call centre job making €400 per week having waankers screaming down the phone at you non stop for 7.25 hours a day, 5 days a week. 20 days holidays per year.

Most jobs are shyte, most people dont get paid enough. get over it.

For the teacher bashers, some people are lucky enough to have a permanent job and nice holidays. begrudgery is a horrible thing.

We all have it pretty bad at the moment, going round in circles blaming each other is keeping this country on its knees.

Benicetomonty

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

There's a huge surplus of teachers in this country is there not?

Based on current student:teacher ratio, yeah, sure there is. But in reality, no. At least half of that 'surplus' could probably find work in special needs and TEFL positions if they were properly addressed. But they aren't.

micropig

CatFromHue

Does anyone know if the suspension of these allowances was notified to the recipients?

If not this is absolutely terrible management.

mossyc123

Cian92 wrote: »

As soon as your daughter qualifies she will end up earning way more than the teacher. She is a trainee Accountant, not a fully qualified accountant, of course she should be earning in and around €20k. Get over it, it will be about 34 to 40 k when she qualifies.

How is that "way more" then a Teacher?

Accountancy route is 3/4 year primary degree (1st class honours or 2:1 required to get into the big firms).

Next up is 3+ years of work as a Junior.

Professional exams are taken at this time and if you're lucky you'll get them paid for by the firm and adequate study leave (exams and tuition can cost 3-4k per annum ... on a wage of 18-20k!)

After you've qualified it's about constant improvement and showing a partner/firm that you are worth taking on for the forseeable future.

Arguably, the polar opposite of the "made permanent, sorted for life" environment of a newly-minted teacher.

Im personally in favour of Teachers, Nurses, Gardai, etc being well remunerated... BUT the idea that 28k isn't a good starting salary in the current environment is pretty ridicilous!

Seachmall

Boulevardier wrote: »

If the results get better then that is due to dumbing down standards.

Not if the exams weren't dumbed down...?

44leto

I would rather support a pedophile protest then a teachers protest. Off all the jobs in this country they have the very least to complain about, I would give my left testicle for their pay and paid time leave.

Benicetomonty

44leto wrote: »

I would rather support a pedophile protest then a teachers protest. Off all the jobs in this country they have the very least to complain about, I would give my left testicle for their pay and paid time leave.

Or you could just qualify :rolleyes: What would you do 'for a few million euro' I wonder...

CageWager

44leto wrote: »

I would rather support a pedophile protest then a teachers protest. Off all the jobs in this country they have the very least to complain about, I would give my left testicle for their pay and paid time leave.

You'll need both of those testicles for the paedophile protest