Unions Demand Return Of Teachers Allowances

micropig

CatFromHue wrote: »

Does anyone know if the suspension of these allowances was notified to the recipients?

If not this is absolutely terrible management.

Not sure but the Irish Times say unions didn't know/ weren't consulted

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0201/breaking50.html

So perhaps not

44leto

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow spot the teachers, so what are yous on these days for your 20 hour week, without the allowances.

Benicetomonty

44leto wrote: »

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow spot the teachers, so what are yous on these days for your 20 hour week, without the allowances.

Grammar.And I get my allowances

CatFromHue

micropig wrote: »

Not sure but the Irish Times say unions didn't know/ weren't consulted

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0201/breaking50.html

So perhaps not

Hmmmm maybe this is just for teachers who will be starting as opposed to cuts to those who are currently employed

44leto wrote: »

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow spot the teachers, so what are yous on these days for your 20 hour week, without the allowances.

I'm not a teacher, it wouldn't matter if I were. I'd be equally as annoyed if anyone in the private sector had their pay/allowances cut without their knowledge. It's really not that difficult to understand.

Freddie59

Geuze wrote: »

Trainee acc earning less than qualified teacher.

But when qualified, the acc will probably earn more than the teacher.

Sad.

We pay people more to move money than to educate our children.

Accountants don't get three months paid holidays. If you break their salary down into the hours they actually work I'd say you'd get a shock.

Plus, the accountants are, well, accountable (unless you make a 3.2Bn error!) - like most workers in the private sector. Which is more than can be said for teachers.

Ms. Pingui

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Based on current student:teacher ratio, yeah, sure there is. But in reality, no. At least half of that 'surplus' could probably find work in special needs and TEFL positions if they were properly addressed. But they aren't.

I agree that the current student/ teacher ratio is crazy, but if in an ideal situation only half the surplus teachers could find work, there's still not exactly a demand for them.

Benicetomonty

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

I agree that the current student/ teacher ratio is crazy, but if in an ideal situation only half the surplus teachers could find work, there's still not exactly a demand for them.

End the moratorium on assistant principal positions and reduce the ratio to something like Finland (1:11, and non-coincidentally, the best education system in Europe). Problem solved. Well, if you forget the deficit that would be created.

P.C.

icescreamqueen wrote: »

My friend who is a primary school teacher completed a masters degree in special education last year. It took 2 very intense years to complete on top of doing a full days teaching. She also funded the €10,000 to do it out of HER OWN POCKET. Of course she is entitled to the extra allowance!

Sorry, she is NOT entitled to anything.

But, if she works hard, etc., the world is her oyster.

44leto

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Grammar.And I get my allowances

What can I say, I am a product of the Irish education system and it's teachers.

Ms. Pingui

micropig wrote: »

You should hear the nonsense and bitching that goes on in the staff room about how hard done by they are - Mostly by people who have never done anything only teach:rolleyes:

My sister is a primary teacher and herself and her friends (teachers aswell) are non stop moaning about how hard their job is and that they can't afford to do anything. Funny they all went on a least two foreign holidays each last year. :rolleyes:

Freddie59

P.C. wrote: »

Sorry, she is NOT entitled to anything.

But, if she works hard, etc., the world is her oyster.

In one. Well said. That is at the core of everything that is wrong with the Public Sector. "Entitlements". FFS.:mad:

44leto

CatFromHue wrote: »

Hmmmm maybe this is just for teachers who will be starting as opposed to cuts to those who are currently employed




I'm not a teacher, it wouldn't matter if I were. I'd be equally as annoyed if anyone in the private sector had their pay/allowances cut without their knowledge. It's really not that difficult to understand.

I venture to say they are the highest paid teachers in Europe and its not as if they are doing a cracking job, every time I see some newly published international educational league I see Ireland slipping some more spaces.

Southeast1

micropig wrote: »

Compared with Germany:
http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Germany/Ireland

Still not pretty reading :mad:

Micropig,
Ive been off line for the last few hours as im sure you noticed. However i feel compelled to comment on your figures. Im not sure what sort of a website this is but its figure are totally off. First of all primary education in ireland is 8 not 6 years.
Secondary can be 5 but more often is 6.

chessman

how many hours a week do they work 15 or 16 i reckon,29k is bad money for those hours

Southeast1

You obviously know so much about education in Ireland chessman!!!
Not even how many hours teachers teach!

TheDriver

love some ill informed teacher bashing!
must say ye have made me laugh as usual.
well if its so good, try it and you won't be long shutting up.

jester77

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

I agree that the current student/ teacher ratio is crazy, but if in an ideal situation only half the surplus teachers could find work, there's still not exactly a demand for them.

It's very hypocritical that they give out about student:teacher ratio, yet won't take a cut to resolve this. They can't have it both ways, their wages are already being paid on borrowed money.

c_man

TheDriver wrote: »

well if its so good, try it and you won't be long shutting up.

Yeah, great argument. I hear Bertie uses that one as well.

44leto

TheDriver wrote: »

love some ill informed teacher bashing!
must say ye have made me laugh as usual.
well if its so good, try it and you won't be long shutting up.

Now now you wont be able to give the public any lines, or send a note home to our parents.

Sorry but I can't see you winning public support this time. We are all getting lashed out of it and expecting worse and I think relatively teachers still have it good.

Seachmall

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

My sister is a primary teacher and herself and her friends (teachers aswell) are non stop moaning about how hard their job is and that they can't afford to do anything. Funny they all went on a least two foreign holidays each last year. :rolleyes:

In fairness everybody complains about their jobs, I complain about my job all the time and I love it (although I do work longer hours for less pay than most teachers...).

Freddie59

Seachmall wrote: »

In fairness everybody complains about their jobs, I complain about my job all the time and I love it (although I do work longer hours for less pay than most teachers...).

Same here.

El Horseboxo

I have to laugh at the 'entitled to because I'm educated' angle.

I done a 4 year degree, followed by another 3 year degree and then a masters in the US. Never got any grants and had to use all my own money. The masters cost close to 100 grand. Followed by a years unpaid internship and then a year on 21,500 euro before moving onto a permanent position and corresponding pay scale.

If I had of been complaining for entitlements due to my education before starting in my job I wouldn't be where I am now. I had a very specific job I wanted and knew the route I had to take. And my job ain't easy either. It even requires mandatory counselling sessions due to the nature of it.

You should be paid based on your performance and role in the business etc. Not how many years you spent in college or how much your education cost.

solerina

Southeast1 wrote: »

Micropig,
Ive been off line for the last few hours as im sure you noticed. However i feel compelled to comment on your figures. Im not sure what sort of a website this is but its figure are totally off. First of all primary education in ireland is 8 not 6 years.
Secondary can be 5 but more often is 6.

The kids in the UK start secondary school at a younger age than here too so that accounts for the extra years !!

Mardy Bum

The more actuarial exams you have done the more you get paid - There is the private sector education entitlement myth burst.

An MA leaves a perspective teacher with a much greater knowledge of their subject area and will make them better teachers. Should they be paid more? Well in the current climate the government can do what they like.

lestat21

Im an unemployed teacher and I dont give a f**k about allowances, I would just like to get a job!! The TUI are really focusing on an issue that doesnt bother newly qualified teachers all that much. Why dont they give out bout the cuts to resource hours, increased pupil teacher ratio or the loss of guidance councillors??!!

Should point out that teachers dont start off at 28000 cos they dont start off on fulltime hours. There was a jobs advertised in January for 2 hours a week and if it was a local school (ie. in the same county as me) I would have applied for it...

Chucky the tree

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The more actuarial exams you have done the more you get paid - There is the private sector education entitlement myth burst.

An MA leaves a perspective teacher with a much greater knowledge of their subject area and will make them better teachers. Should they be paid more? Well in the current climate the government can do what they like.

No it won't. Being able to control teenagers, explain things in a simple and easy to understand manner is far more important than a PHD.

micropig

solerina wrote: »

The kids in the UK start secondary school at a younger age than here too so that accounts for the extra years !!

What age do they start secondary school at?

How many years do they spend in secondary & secondary school in each country?

Please provide links to back up your figures. Thanks

Mardy Bum

Chucky the tree wrote: »

No it won't. Being able to control teenagers, explain things in a simple and easy to understand manner is far more important than a PHD.

A greater understanding of the subject area will make it far easier for a teacher to explain themselves clearly and simply. Teachers who cant control a class are generally those who are bad at these things.

micropig

Chucky the tree wrote: »

No it won't. Being able to control teenagers, explain things in a simple and easy to understand manner is far more important than a PHD.

Your only teaching basic subjects to leaving cert level. 1st year uni will cover any subject knowledge needed;)

Pacifist Pigeon

Where's Jeremy Clarkson when you need him...

Personally, I think all school should be private.

Chucky the tree

Mardy Bum wrote: »

A greater understanding of the subject area will make it far easier for a teacher to explain themselves clearly and simply. Teachers who cant control a class are generally those who are bad at these things.

I don't agree. You don't need a PHD or Masters to be a good teacher, if that's the case then maybe no one with a degree should be allowed teacher if they can't explain the subject properly.

micropig

Mardy Bum wrote: »

A greater understanding of the subject area will make it far easier for a teacher to explain themselves clearly and simply. Teachers who cant control a class are generally those who are bad at these things.

Teachers who can't control a class have

a) no authority
b) boring and ill prepared lessons


Ever seen bored children with a playstation?

Benicetomonty

44leto wrote: »

I venture to say they are the highest paid teachers in Europe and its not as if they are doing a cracking job, every time I see some newly published international educational league I see Ireland slipping some more spaces.

They aren't.

And OECD figures place Ireland in the bottom half of European countries' actual investment in education. So slipping standards is no great surprise. We have one of the most ineffective TEFL programmes in Europe in place to deal with an influx of foreign national children that is probably unmatched in the EU if you take into consideration Ireland's relatively small population. And you're genuinely surprised the literacy rate is in decline?!
I'm sorry if you had a bad experience in school but you can't blame teachers for all your problems. The level of misinformation displayed by too many people on this thread is actually depressing. Not to mention way off the point. If anyone here genuinely believes teachers only work 22 hours a week, you are beyond deluded.

Mardy Bum

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I don't agree. You don't need a PHD or Masters to be a good teacher, if that's the case then maybe no one with a degree should be allowed teacher if they can't explain the subject properly.

Obviously not. I didn't say you MUST have a masters or a PhD to be a good teacher, I said it helps though and will improve any teacher who studies toward one.

Mardy Bum

micropig wrote: »

Teachers who can't control a class have

a) no authority
b) boring and ill prepared lessons


Ever seen bored children with a playstation?

A teacher who is professional and has engaging class plans ready before the class will have no trouble with establishing authority. Its the teachers who go into a class with nothing prepared and are reading out of a book who will struggle with authority because of their lack of preparation. It all comes down to preparation.

Preparation breeds authority.

micropig

Mardy Bum wrote: »

A teacher who is professional and has engaging class plans ready before the class will have no trouble with establishing authority. Its the teachers who go into a class with nothing prepared and are reading out of a book who will struggle with authority because of their lack of preparation. It all comes down to preparation.

Preparation breeds authority.

+1 All in the preparation & knowing your students' abilities & interests:D

micropig

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

So the PISA statistics were just my imagination?

oppenheimer1

micropig wrote: »

Wrong person to quote, sorry!

MysticalRain

TheDriver wrote: »

love some ill informed teacher bashing!
must say ye have made me laugh as usual.
well if its so good, try it and you won't be long shutting up.

You remind me of a chef in a restaurant telling a patron to shut up and cook the food themselves if they complain about it. You wouldn't get very far in the private sector with that sort of attitude.

I look forward to the day when the Germans finally put an end to this insanity, and pull the plug on the Croke Park Agreement.

micropig

Benicetomonty wrote: »

They aren't.

And OECD figures place Ireland in the bottom half of European countries' actual investment in education. So slipping standards is no great surprise. We have one of the most ineffective TEFL programmes in Europe in place to deal with an influx of foreign national children that is probably unmatched in the EU if you take into consideration Ireland's relatively small population. And you're genuinely surprised the literacy rate is in decline?!
I'm sorry if you had a bad experience in school but you can't blame teachers for all your problems. The level of misinformation displayed by too many people on this thread is actually depressing. Not to mention way off the point. If anyone here genuinely believes teachers only work 22 hours a week, you are beyond deluded.

Please, if I have been an offender of misinformation, please point it out to me & I will clarify


(You have to back up your facts with links please & no saying statistics are silly because you know some who went to school once & this didn't happen to them)

Thanks

(I think its good we clarify, what is fact and what is fiction)

micropig

Yet again when I for facts or figures to back up the other side of the argument non, are forth coming


* Awaits to be told I'm just bitter

Benicetomonty

micropig wrote: »

Teachers who can't control a class have

a) no authority
b) boring and ill prepared lessons


Ever seen bored children with a playstation?

Sigh. I don't think I specified anybody in particular but I guess this post can be identified as ridiculous beyond belief.

1) Authority is important but because expulsions still happen, it does not guarantee cooperation. The most authoratative teacher in Ireland has had at least one student that they couldn't discipline.

2) 'Boring'. This is a word at least one student per class has used/will use to describe every poet/novel/play and movie I have done and probably ever will on the English syllabus. And I fail them for it. And your use of it here deserves the same treatment.

3) Teachers can't compete with Playstations. No argument there. What's your point? When parents don't care, children can play the computer for 10 hours a day. A secondary school teacher will see them for 40 minutes. I have no idea what this means at all. Do you think it's bad teaching to expect a student to sit reasonably still for 40mins with a book and a copy and do some work? Or could that possibly be the student's problem and not the teacher's?

CageWager

micropig wrote: »

* Awaits to be told I'm just bitter

you're just bitter

micropig

CageWager wrote: »

you're just bitter

thanks I was doubting myself there for a minute:D

I thought I had been sucked in to the world of dillusion

CageWager

micropig wrote: »

thanks I was doubting myself there for a minute:D

I thought I had been sucked in to the world of dillusion

You're welcome my friend!

Anyway, lets change the subject... what about these feckin teachers and their summer holidays? :D:D

Benicetomonty

CageWager wrote: »

You're welcome my friend!

Anyway, lets change the subject... what about these feckin teachers and their summer holidays? :D:D

Here we go...:) Bah, Im going to bed. First class at 9 40am, don't want to be late!

Rocksteadykk

I'm a trainee teacher at the moment...it's bad enough the NQT's getting hit with the paycuts now they are taking away any incentive for teacher's to take part in any professional development. I agree that cuts need to be made...but what I don't think is fair is that it's always the NQT's taking the brunt of the cuts. These are the people with no power or support and no voice within the unions. So basically the unions will throw us to the dogs while they work away happily on their excellent salaries (including their allowances). I don't think it's fair that 2 teachers qualifying within one year of one another can earn possibly 6-7k in the difference...where's the equality in that?

micropig

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Sigh. I don't think I specified anybody in particular but I guess this post can be identified as ridiculous beyond belief.

1) Authority is important but because expulsions still happen, it does not guarantee cooperation. The most authoratative teacher in Ireland has had at least one student that they couldn't discipline.

This is due to schools having no effective awards/punishment system in place. It is up to the school & the teachers within the school to implement an effective behaviour control policy

But I'm betting if I said a rewards system rewards & lunch time detentions, you would tell me that teachers can't give up their lunch time without more money.:rolleyes:

Get together with the other teachers, principals & BOM & address this problem

1 student being disruptive in a class. Hardly the same as 30 disruptive students

The action to be taken
1) Is there a medical condition
2) Find out what level he is at, may he's not keeping up with the class, maybe hes too advanced for the class
3) Catering a lesson (quite easy to adapt a lesson plan and use differentiation, if your a skilled teacher)
4) Chat to the child, find out what his interests are. Differentiate the lesson to incorporate his interests.
5) Move it up to the next level ie form tutor, principal & Parents


At the same time reward the disruptive every time you seeing him do something good
Don't hold grudges

But before you do this you have to have a clear behaviour management plan in place so that the children know the rules and that there will be consequences for obeying/disobeying rules

Always follow up bad behaviour. Get parents involved. Ring them to tell them child, good &/ bad. creates strong home-school bonds

Benicetomonty wrote: »

2) 'Boring'. This is a word at least one student per class has used/will use to describe every poet/novel/play and movie I have done and probably ever will on the English syllabus. And I fail them for it. And your use of it here deserves the same treatment.

Get them to act out a poet, play. children love acting stuff out & when they are actively participating less likely to bored. Try and make the subject material relevant to their daily lives. Relationships, death etc. (I'm not an english teacher but with all the education teachers have I'm sure you'll come up with a few more ideas). Don't just sit at the top of the class telling them to take down notes. Have you watched the film of the play. Get them to research a character on the internet and write an essay on the sim ilarities on their daily lives. Plan your class so the children have to actively participate in the lesson and can't opt out. (I'm not an english teacher but that what I came up with off the top of my head )

Benicetomonty wrote: »

3) Teachers can't compete with Playstations. No argument there. What's your point? When parents don't care, children can play the computer for 10 hours a day. A secondary school teacher will see them for 40 minutes. I have no idea what this means at all. Do you think it's bad teaching to expect a student to sit reasonably still for 40mins with a book and a copy and do some work? Or could that possibly be the student's problem and not the teacher's?

Yes I think this is incredibly lazy teaching. Students sitting a desk for 40 mins with a copy and a pen:D don't expect the impossible., but do plan a lesson so they are not doing this for a full 40 minutes see above for some ideas to make your lessons more interesting and interactive for the students


& Learn some classroom management & behaviour control techniques

If this is the standard of teachers that we are producing, no wonder the education system is the way it is

I have so much education to do an above average job - To sit at the top of the class and dictate notes to the children sitting at their desks taking notes and expecting them to sit still for 40 minutes :rolleyes: I wouldn't sit still for 40 minutes in this type of class

Innovation people!!:p

Where To

Rocksteadykk wrote: »

I'm a trainee teacher at the moment...it's bad enough the NQT's getting hit with the paycuts now they are taking away any incentive for teacher's to take part in any professional development. I agree that cuts need to be made...but what I don't think is fair is that it's always the NQT's taking the brunt of the cuts. These are the people with no power or support and no voice within the unions. So basically the unions will throw us to the dogs while they work away happily on their excellent salaries (including their allowances). I don't think it's fair that 2 teachers qualifying within one year of one another can earn possibly 6-7k in the difference...where's the equality in that?

I don't think its fair that people doing my private sector job were earning up to 20k ten years ago more than I am now.

Life has a habit of not being fair.;)

44leto

Benicetomonty wrote: »

They aren't.

And OECD figures place Ireland in the bottom half of European countries' actual investment in education. So slipping standards is no great surprise. We have one of the most ineffective TEFL programmes in Europe in place to deal with an influx of foreign national children that is probably unmatched in the EU if you take into consideration Ireland's relatively small population. And you're genuinely surprised the literacy rate is in decline?!
I'm sorry if you had a bad experience in school but you can't blame teachers for all your problems. The level of misinformation displayed by too many people on this thread is actually depressing. Not to mention way off the point. If anyone here genuinely believes teachers only work 22 hours a week, you are beyond deluded.

My question was not about investment in education but teachers salaries, so get googling and find me a country in Europe that pays their teachers more.

I also have to add, your retirement age really takes the piss.