Unions Demand Return Of Teachers Allowances

ucd.1985

Fear_an_tarbh wrote: »

#ut you'll happily send your kid in to be taught by someone who gets this wage, the complain that they are overpaid.

The best paid teachers in Europe should really be doing a much better job.

Fear_an_tarbh

Fear_an_tarbh wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's introduce a system where teachers (secondary school) pay is related to their performance. Let's look at the junior and leaving cert results and if over a 5 year period 10% of their students fail then let them face a 10% wage cut. If 20% of their students recieve A grades then a increase cab be given. Guaranteed that the standards of teaching and exam results would improve over night

Great idea!, lets put my 3 students with Asperger's and 5 with MGLD (Mild General Learning Disabilities) as well as the few with dyslexia, dyspraxia into a special institution (just like the good old days) and concentrate on those students who do well on written standardised tests.
And we should just expel those (I have 3 or 4) who come from abusive alcoholic backgrounds, get no support at home and have no chance of matching the results of those who come from stable leafy suburb backgrounds.
Whoever thought that education should be inclusive was crazy, this will work far better and we'll save so much money in disadvantaged areas!
:rolleyes:

That's exactly what I was suggesting.

Perhaps if teachers wages were cut there could be more money available to help disadvantaged students. If 80% percent of money invested in the school system is going on teacher wages then even a 10% cut would mean that there was 50% more available to spend on disadvantaged areas/kids.

Teacher wages are ridicolous when you consider just how poor many teachers are. Everyone had at least one secondary school teacher who could barely be bothered to head in in the morning. There's a reason that grinds are so popular in this country and that so many teachers are warning 10-20 euro an hour teaching them makes you wonder...

steddyeddy

Fear_an_tarbh wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's introduce a system where teachers (secondary school) pay is related to their performance. Let's look at the junior and leaving cert results and if over a 5 year period 10% of their students fail then let them face a 10% wage cut. If 20% of their students recieve A grades then a increase cab be given. Guaranteed that the standards of teaching and exam results would improve over night

Great idea!, lets put my 3 students with Asperger's and 5 with MGLD (Mild General Learning Disabilities) as well as the few with dyslexia, dyspraxia into a special institution (just like the good old days) and concentrate on those students who do well on written standardised tests.
And we should just expel those (I have 3 or 4) who come from abusive alcoholic backgrounds, get no support at home and have no chance of matching the results of those who come from stable leafy suburb backgrounds.
Whoever thought that education should be inclusive was crazy, this will work far better and we'll save so much money in disadvantaged areas!
:rolleyes:

This is an area close to my heart but why did you write of those with abusive backgrounds of being incapable of getting good grades?

Triangla

Fear_an_tarbh wrote: »

Great idea!, lets put my 3 students with Asperger's and 5 with MGLD (Mild General Learning Disabilities) as well as the few with dyslexia, dyspraxia into a special institution (just like the good old days) and concentrate on those students who do well on written standardised tests.
And we should just expel those (I have 3 or 4) who come from abusive alcoholic backgrounds, get no support at home and have no chance of matching the results of those who come from stable leafy suburb backgrounds.
Whoever thought that education should be inclusive was crazy, this will work far better and we'll save so much money in disadvantaged areas!
:rolleyes:

Or hire the resources needed to help these kids with the money saved from not paying ridiculous wages to teachers.

I personally know a few teachers, no hardship cases there I can tell you. They are well paid for what they do, know it and work hard at it.

Gophur

Any teachers care to suggest a way of measuring their work and results?

Any teacher care to post the salary scales for their job? (And not just focus on starting salaries)

Haelium

A lot of people in this thread are talking about judging teachers on results. This is a terrible idea and here's why. Depending on the area, some students will obviously out perform other students in other areas based on the level of wealth in that area. Another problem is the fact that when parents who care about education see that X school averages 21 while Y school averages A3, they will send their child to school X, and because they care about education, their child will do better regardless of what school they go to, thus the average of school X goes up to A1 eventually.

Finally, if we were to pay teachers based on results, how do we account for differing levels of difficulty in subject? Should a teacher who delivers A1 students in something easy like Economics be paid the same as a teacher who delivers A1 students in something difficult like Chemistry?

I'm not even going to bother discussing the issue of students taking grinds.

Gophur

Haelium wrote: »

A lot of people in this thread are talking about judging teachers on results. .....

As I posted above, let's have a measure for judging the teachers, then?

Don't measure them on the absolute result, the grades achieved, but on a measurable metric. Teachers have refused to be paid according to their work.

BTW INTO Salary scales are as follows

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/Salaries/CommonBasicScale/

Up to €53k for a National Teacher, not including any allowances.

irelandrover

How about taking the average of the results of the school you are in as a comparison as to how you are doing your job. You could take the last 5 years of leaving cert maths and compare it to the results you achieve. Therefore you are only comparing against the same level of students yet it is a method of evaluating teacher performance.

44leto

Gophur wrote: »

As I posted above, let's have a measure for judging the teachers, then?

Don't measure them on the absolute result, the grades achieved, but on a measurable metric. Teachers have refused to be paid according to their work.

BTW INTO Salary scales are as follows

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/Salaries/CommonBasicScale/

Up to €53k for a National Teacher, not including any allowances.

Whhhaaaaat

But But how about all the impoverished teachers who posted in this thread.

vamos!

44leto wrote: »

Whhhaaaaat

But But how about all the impoverished teachers who posted in this thread.

I don have the exact figures for all deductions in % form and will not be posting the exact figures on my payslip. What I will contribute is that not all teachers are on full hours. I work part time and get paid as such. I did not choose to work part time and understand that there are a lot of people out there on 3 day weeks when they would be happy to do a full week. I, however, need to be in school all day every day hanging around for my classes. I also have to do the CPA hours and parent teacher meetings and spend at least 3 hours a week on unpaid extra curricular activities and a further 1 on extra classes. I also give up my lunchtimes to do extra oral classes. I will earn 13900 this year after tax. This includes my MA allowance and an allowance for having a first class H Dip. I am paid on the old rates. Teachers who started after Jan 11 are on less. I am not exactly on the breadline, but I am certainly not wealthy, nor do I consider myself overpaid. I can and do work during the summer.

My point regarding the freeze on qualification allowances is that NQTs have been sold out yet again by their unions. I wouldn't exactly welcome a pay cut but I really do think that an across the board cut would be fairer and much more transparent than punishing the NQTs for the sad state of affairs the country finds itself in.

vamos!

Deleted User wrote: »

That's exactly what I was suggesting.

Perhaps if teachers wages were cut there could be more money available to help disadvantaged students. If 80% percent of money invested in the school system is going on teacher wages then even a 10% cut would mean that there was 50% more available to spend on disadvantaged areas/kids.

Teacher wages are ridicolous when you consider just how poor many teachers are. Everyone had at least one secondary school teacher who could barely be bothered to head in in the morning. There's a reason that grinds are so popular in this country and that so many teachers are warning 10-20 euro an hour teaching them makes you wonder...

Please don't be naive enough to even dream that any potential cuts to teachers salaries will result in investment in other areas of education. They will be thrown in to the black hole that is our debt to the bondholders.

On the topic of grinds, it is true that grinds are helping hide the inadequacies of some teachers. This is not true of all teachers. The Leaving Cert is horrifically competitive and some students think that they will do better if the have a second opinion and some individual attention. Increases to the pupil-teacher ratio and the mixing of HL and OL classes will only fuel the grinds market. Even the most effective, well-prepared teacher will struggle to give full attention to every student in an incredibly mixed ability and multi-level class. The extra, unpaid classes at lunchtime and after school will also stop, as goodwill will be eroded by constant negative press and ingratitude.

44leto

vamos! wrote: »

I don have the exact figures for all deductions in % form and will not be posting the exact figures on my payslip. What I will contribute is that not all teachers are on full hours. I work part time and get paid as such. I did not choose to work part time and understand that there are a lot of people out there on 3 day weeks when they would be happy to do a full week. I, however, need to be in school all day every day hanging around for my classes. I also have to do the CPA hours and parent teacher meetings and spend at least 3 hours a week on unpaid extra curricular activities and a further 1 on extra classes. I also give up my lunchtimes to do extra oral classes. I will earn 13900 this year after tax. This includes my MA allowance and an allowance for having a first class H Dip. I am paid on the old rates. Teachers who started after Jan 11 are on less. I am not exactly on the breadline, but I am certainly not wealthy, nor do I consider myself overpaid. I can and do work during the summer.

My point regarding the freeze on qualification allowances is that NQTs have been sold out yet again by their unions. I wouldn't exactly welcome a pay cut but I really do think that an across the board cut would be fairer and much more transparent than punishing the NQTs for the sad state of affairs the country finds itself in.

What do you want me to say, you have a part time job and you are paid as such.

Besides with the 2000 or so who decided to take retirement before the 29th I am sure your part time status will soon be upgraded when you will enjoy a well paying job, with all that time off.

vamos!

vamos! wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

That's exactly what I was suggesting.

Perhaps if teachers wages were cut there could be more money available to help disadvantaged students. If 80% percent of money invested in the school system is going on teacher wages then even a 10% cut would mean that there was 50% more available to spend on disadvantaged areas/kids.

Teacher wages are ridicolous when you consider just how poor many teachers are. Everyone had at least one secondary school teacher who could barely be bothered to head in in the morning. There's a reason that grinds are so popular in this country and that so many teachers are warning 10-20 euro an hour teaching them makes you wonder...

Please don't be naive enough to even dream that any potential cuts to teachers salaries will result in investment in other areas of education. They will be thrown in to the black hole that is our debt to the bondholders.

On the topic of grinds, it is true that grinds are helping hide the inadequacies of some teachers. This is not true of all teachers. The Leaving Cert is horrifically competitive and some students think that they will do better if the have a second opinion and some individual attention. Increases to the pupil-teacher ratio and the mixing of HL and OL classes will only fuel the grinds market. Even the most effective, well-prepared teacher will struggle to give full attention to every student in an incredibly mixed ability and multi-level class. The extra, unpaid classes at lunchtime and after school will also stop, as goodwill will be eroded by constant negative press and ingratitude.

I don't believe for one second any cuts would be going back into the education system but to that's not to say that it isn't a possibility. Why are teacher unions highlighting the drastic need for extra funding in these areas and suggesting that any cuts to teachers wages be used to help in these areas. Sentiments such as that would see a lot more support for teachers who seem to thank that they are an untouchable group of society.

As for grinds, with so many teachers charging to give them you have to wonder if some teachers ate deliberately putting in less effort in class in order to cash in later on.

vamos!

44leto wrote: »

What do you want me to say, you have a part time job and you are paid as such.

Besides with the 2000 or so who decided to take retirement before the 29th I am sure your part time status will soon be upgraded when you will enjoy a well paying job, with all that time off.

The retiring teachers will not all be replaced. The realities of it is that I ,along with what I estimate to be hundreds of others (anecdotal) face long term part time status. As do new entrants. These are the people being punished and cut. Those who got in on the so called gravy train are still there and will still be there until they retire on pre 2004 pensions. This is the reality. I struggle to think of another profession that involves working and being paid for about 11 hours, working 4/5 hours for free, 1 CPA hour a week and prep. This comes to more than 11 hours. Yes, the holidays are great, but they are often unpaid and you have to be available to interview for jobs that may or may not be gone to the priest's less-qualified niece. I also don't know what kind of work you could do for the holy days, Easter hols and mid-terms, which are also unpaid for a lot. These are the kind of stories that don't make the Indo's 'over-paid lazy public servants' stories. Not everyone is on a full wage and new entrants and teachers under the age of 30ish certainly aren't!

micropig

Fear_an_tarbh wrote: »

I'm a young teacher. I get paid for a 22 hour week. Like most young teachers, very week since September I have worked 45 - 50 hours. 8 - 4 every day in school (with a 10 minute break to eat at best) then average 2 hours planning and correcting and usually 3-4 hours on Sunday. This doesn't take into account the hundred or so (again, unpaid) hours in the year that go into activities such as sports, trips away and obligatory courses.

I work out at about 9 euro an hour. I work in July and August to pay the bills.

Most people that give out about teaching wouldn't last a week in it.

You fail to mention that time for planning & correction is factored in to your time table -at least 1/2 free planning classes a day. If you can't get teachers can't get their planning & corrections done in this time with an hour after school each day - they need to organised themselves.

Just as a matter of interest - Other teachers in the school have are teaching the same material to other classes. Do teachers swap lesson plans between for them? Each school school have a scheme of work & plans done out for the year. If not bad organisation on school & teachers part. This will not be solved for more money.
The hundreds of hours spent on sports etc - rightly so. It probably breaks down to an hour a week and rightly so. It should be included in every teachers contract to run an after school club during term time. Do all your colleagues put the same dedication in to running out of class activities. If all of them did, everyone's workload would be less -so no I can't justify the level of your wages because some of your colleagues are non participating

dsmythy wrote: »

The masters allowance should not just have been kept but increased. If you want to get paid big for teaching have the credentials. Should be how it works.

Yes so more overpaid, ineffective teachers can develop power complexes.

Benicetomonty wrote: »

1) You seem to have all the answers it seems What would you do if an 18 year old with no psychiatric problems on record exposed himself in front of you? I can tell you that's something we're not taught in teacher school! More investment needed I guess :rolleyes:

2) Get them to write an essay? Very difficult when the technique of sitting down quietly with a book and a copy has been so roundly criticised. How would you propose they write this essay without paper, pen, sitting...etc?

3) That you so readily believe this is the only way I teach speaks of the prejudice, begrudgery, contempt and outright ignorance you have for teachers. Since there's nothing I can do to help you there, I bow out.

Do you want me to come in & teach the class for you?
What if a spaceship landed through the roof?

Teachers do a lot of complaining about behaviour management & the stress it causes them. Yet when I hear things like "they won't sit quietly at the desk for 40 minutes" - I'm not surprised.

Jess16

CageWager wrote: »

It must be tough to be forced to work July and August just to pay the bills............ Like everyone else...

aka "If I have to work in July and August then everybody else does too because I can't stand to see anyone doing better than me so I'll have a tantrum and throw my toys out of the pram if they do"

You can't argue with ignorance so I'm not going to even try to here

EDIT: The extent of uninformed vitriol being publicly hurled at one profession here is uncontained and bordering on abusive. There is little or no moderation taking place, no logical debate and it's unacceptable for a forum to provide a public platfrom to spout unsubstantiated hatred towards a target group, which is what this thread has descended into

vamos!

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't believe for one second any cuts would be going back into the education system but to that's not to say that it isn't a possibility. Why are teacher unions highlighting the drastic need for extra funding in these areas and suggesting that any cuts to teachers wages be used to help in these areas. Sentiments such as that would see a lot more support for teachers who seem to thank that they are an untouchable group of society.

As for grinds, with so many teachers charging to give them you have to wonder if some teachers ate deliberately putting in less effort in class in order to cash in later on.

Surely 10 seconds thought would make it obvious that the teachers giving grinds aren't the lazy ones who do no prep for their own classes. Preparing notes etc takes up a huge amount of time. It would not be financially worth giving grinds if you could't use resources from your own classes. It's no big conspiracy.

44leto

vamos! wrote: »

The retiring teachers will not all be replaced. The realities of it is that I ,along with what I estimate to be hundreds of others (anecdotal) face long term part time status. As do new entrants. These are the people being punished and cut. Those who got in on the so called gravy train are still there and will still be there until they retire on pre 2004 pensions. This is the reality. I struggle to think of another profession that involves working and being paid for about 11 hours, working 4/5 hours for free, 1 CPA hour a week and prep. This comes to more than 11 hours. Yes, the holidays are great, but they are often unpaid and you have to be available to interview for jobs that may or may not be gone to the priest's less-qualified niece. I also don't know what kind of work you could do for the holy days, Easter hols and mid-terms, which are also unpaid for a lot. These are the kind of stories that don't make the Indo's 'over-paid lazy public servants' stories. Not everyone is on a full wage and new entrants and teachers under the age of 30ish certainly aren't!

But there are a lot of unemployed graduates who are flipping burgers or on the dole, I don't know why you feel because you are qualified you are automatically employed fulltime. You do know we are in a depression which hasn't even seen the bottom yet.

I sympathise as i do with any unemployed or underemployed person and I truly hope you do get a fulltime position, but I will not feel any sympathy or give any support to a teacher in a fulltime position who will shortly engage in industrial action. I think they have it good.

micropig

tigger123 wrote: »

So your argument is that in order to maintain high standards in education, the State should purposely keep the wages of Teachers low in order to only attract those who feel a calling for the profession? I completely disagree.

Can you link figures please to show this current high standard of education that our children are receiving please?

BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT

It's spouted around by teachers a lot

micropig

44leto wrote: »

Whhhaaaaat

But But how about all the impoverished teachers who posted in this thread.

They're out shopping:p

vamos!

vamos! wrote: »

Surely 10 seconds thought would make it obvious that the teachers giving grinds aren't the lazy ones who do no prep for their own classes. Preparing notes etc takes up a huge amount of time. It would not be financially worth giving grinds if you could't use resources from your own classes. It's no big conspiracy.

Never said they were lazy but rather they were deliberately teaching the bare minimum in order to cash on on grinds. There's one teacher I know of, who spends three night a week teaching 2 one hour long grind sessions each night at a cost of 15 euro per head. He takes groups of 6 per hour so that means in one evening he could be making as much as 180 euro. Most of his students are the ones he teaches on a daily basis. I'm sure he's motivated by a need to help his students and puts in 110% each day during class.

vamos!

micropig wrote: »

You fail to mention that time for planning & correction is factored in to your time table -at least 1/2 free planning classes a day. If you can't get teachers can't get their planning & corrections done in this time with an hour after school each day - they need to organised themselves.

Just as a matter of interest - Other teachers in the school have are teaching the same material to other classes. Do teachers swap lesson plans between for them? Each school school have a scheme of work & plans done out for the year. If not bad organisation on school & teachers part. This will not be solved for more money.
The hundreds of hours spent on sports etc - rightly so. It probably breaks down to an hour a week and rightly so. It should be included in every teachers contract to run an after school club during term time. Do all your colleagues put the same dedication in to running out of class activities. If all of them did, everyone's workload would be less -so no I can't justify the level of your wages because some of your colleagues are non participating




Yes so more overpaid, ineffective teachers can develop power complexes.



Do you want me to come in & teach the class for you?
What if a spaceship landed through the roof?

Teachers do a lot of complaining about behaviour management & the stress it causes them. Yet when I hear things like "they won't sit quietly at the desk for 40 minutes" - I'm not surprised.

Planning and corrections- I would be interested to see how you could correct 28 higher level written pieces in 90 minutes. Correcting has moved on from the red tick or X you may have gotten in school. Errors are amended and comments are made. Ditto for exam papers. Tests and the likes are easy to mark, but still take time. Planning can be done at the start of the year, but resources, games, Power Points etc have to be made. None of this is rocket science, but it is very time consuming. High-quality notes and well-prepared lessons are becoming the norm, so preparation is time consuming.

Planning and sharing- Yes teachers in any of the schools I have been in work together and plan together. This saves time but a one size fits all approach doesn't work for the students. If this worked, we could just read from the book!

The likes of offering to teach someones class really gets my gall. Everybody has experienced school, but only a teacher actually knows exactly what their job entails. The best-prepared, most innovative lesson in the world won't help if there is more than 1 0r 2 trouble makers in the class. They have an insidious effect and the teacher ends up really having to fight to encourage the others to ignore it and work on. I can only speak for the schools I have worked in, but I have rarely head of a class where the students are expected to sit quietly for 40mins. Education has moved on and if you don't work in the sector, you are unlikely to know about it and are certainly not qualified to pop in to a class to 'teach'. Just as I won't be heading anywhere near other sectors telling them that I could do their job better than them and that they are overpaid and lazy!

micropig

Deleted User wrote: »

Never said they were lazy but rather they were deliberately teaching the bare minimum in order to cash on on grinds. There's one teacher I know of, who spends three night a week teaching two hour long grind sessions each night at a cost of 15 euro per head. He takes groups of 6 per hour sithat means in one evening he could be making as much as 180 euro. Most of his students are the ones he teaches on a daily basis. I'm sure he's motivated by a need to help his students and puts in 110% each day during class.

I forgot about Grinds!!

Not many teachers stating the amount if (probably undeclared) income they receive for grinds & if a student has to take grinds outside of the school, the school should be fined. They wouldn't be too long sorting out ineffective teachers then:p

micropig

vamos! wrote: »

Planning and corrections- I would be interested to see how you could correct 28 higher level written pieces in 90 minutes. Correcting has moved on from the red tick or X you may have gotten in school. Errors are amended and comments are made. Ditto for exam papers. Tests and the likes are easy to mark, but still take time. Planning can be done at the start of the year, but resources, games, Power Points etc have to be made. None of this is rocket science, but it is very time consuming. High-quality notes and well-prepared lessons are becoming the norm, so preparation is time consuming.

Planning and sharing- Yes teachers in any of the schools I have been in work together and plan together. This saves time but a one size fits all approach doesn't work for the students. If this worked, we could just read from the book!

The likes of offering to teach someones class really gets my gall. Everybody has experienced school, but only a teacher actually knows exactly what their job entails. The best-prepared, most innovative lesson in the world won't help if there is more than 1 0r 2 trouble makers in the class. They have an insidious effect and the teacher ends up really having to fight to encourage the others to ignore it and work on. I can only speak for the schools I have worked in, but I have rarely head of a class where the students are expected to sit quietly for 40mins. Education has moved on and if you don't work in the sector, you are unlikely to know about it and are certainly not qualified to pop in to a class to 'teach'. Just as I won't be heading anywhere near other sectors telling them that I could do their job better than them and that they are overpaid and lazy!

Can you tell me others ways of assessing the work rather than the teacher sitting down and correcting it?

I can think of a few but I'll give you first go;)

vamos!

44leto wrote: »

But there are a lot of unemployed graduates who are flipping burgers or on the dole, I don't know why you feel because you are qualified you are automatically employed fulltime. You do know we are in a depression which hasn't even seen the bottom yet.

I sympathise as i do with any unemployed or underemployed person and I truly hope you do get a fulltime position, but I will not feel any sympathy or give any support to a teacher in a fulltime position who will shortly engage in industrial action. I think they have it good.

I never asked for sympathy and know how lucky I am to have any kind of a job, especially a job in my chosen sector. I do wish that non-teachers would recognise that not everyone is on full hours and that the cuts are disproportionate and affect the new entrants only. This is the bottom line. The Government has created a two-tiered system which is likely to have repercussions in the future when teacher retire and we discover that there are no senior teachers in the school, because they all upped sticks or retrained in 2012 when their wages were unfairly singled out for a cut!

I have to go and teach my final class- I promise it's well-prepared and doesn't involve reading from the book and sitting in silence for 45mins

micropig

vamos! wrote: »

I never asked for sympathy and know how lucky I am to have any kind of a job, especially a job in my chosen sector. I do wish that non-teachers would recognise that not everyone is on full hours and that the cuts are disproportionate and affect the new entrants only. This is the bottom line. The Government has created a two-tiered system which is likely to have repercussions in the future when teacher retire and we discover that there are no senior teachers in the school, because they all upped sticks or retrained in 2012 when their wages were unfairly singled out for a cut!

I have to go and teach my final class- I promise it's well-prepared and doesn't involve reading from the book and sitting in silence for 45mins

So you're in school working, posting on boards, complaining about the lack of time in your day to complete you duties. Irony much?

micropig

Jess16 wrote: »

aka "If I have to work in July and August then everybody else does too because I can't stand to see anyone doing better than me so I'll have a tantrum and throw my toys out of the pram if they do"

You can't argue with ignorance so I'm not going to even try to here

EDIT: The extent of uninformed vitriol being publicly hurled at one profession here is uncontained and bordering on abusive. There is little or no moderation taking place, no logical debate and it's unacceptable for a forum to provide a public platfrom to spout unsubstantiated hatred towards a target group, which is what this thread has descended into

Plenty of figures provided to back up that the education system is failing badly,

Still waiting to be proved other wise, with facts backed up with figures & links,

It would be ignorant of people to believe unsubstantiated claims thrown around here by supposedly teachers and ignore the facts &figures

Jess16

micropig wrote: »

Plenty of figures provided to back up that the education system is failing badly,

Still waiting to be proved other wise, with facts backed up with figures & links,

It would be ignorant of people to believe unsubstantiated claims thrown around here by supposedly teachers and ignore the facts &figures

See here:

Jess16 wrote: »

I am genuinely sick of people referring to statistics as though they're the only legitimate source of information to address disparaging views. The reality is that statistics are every bit as biased as the study they were made to assess and the mind that produced the formula to construct them -and most often a crutch for those unable to form a substantial argument of their own:

Or as Mark Twain succinctly put it: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics"

This is the internet -I could provide links to illustrate the world is flat if I wanted to. Get some perspective.

Gophur

With all due respect to part-time teachers, you cannot expect to get paid a full week's wage for working less than a full week.

44leto

Originally Posted by Jess16
I am genuinely sick of people referring to statistics as though they're the only legitimate source of information to address disparaging views. The reality is that statistics are every bit as biased as the study they were made to assess and the mind that produced the formula to construct them -and most often a crutch for those unable to form a substantial argument of their own:

Or as Mark Twain succinctly put it: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics"

Could you at least back that up with some statistics?

tigger123

micropig wrote: »

Plenty of figures provided to back up that the education system is failing badly,

Still waiting to be proved other wise, with facts backed up with figures & links,

It would be ignorant of people to believe unsubstantiated claims thrown around here by supposedly teachers and ignore the facts &figures

As I see it you're the one making the assertions with regard to the falling standard of education, but without backing it up with any links.

micropig

Jess16 wrote: »

See here:



This is the internet -I could provide links to illustrate the world is flat if I wanted to. Get some perspective.

Yes this is the internet, surely, somewhere on it you could find facts & figures to back up your argument


We're not your students here, who can be dictated to and believe every word you say because you're a teacher

Benicetomonty

Do you want me to come in & teach the class for you?
What if a spaceship landed through the roof?

Again....what?

Teachers do a lot of complaining about behaviour management & the stress it causes them. Yet when I hear things like "they won't sit quietly at the desk for 40 minutes" - I'm not surprised.[/QUOTE]


Hey, it was your suggestion, remember - "research a character, write an essay..." Your denial is beneath you at this stage. 4 words I never thought I'd write: Don't feed the troll.

44leto

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Do you want me to come in & teach the class for you?
What if a spaceship landed through the roof?

Again....what?

Teachers do a lot of complaining about behaviour management & the stress it causes them. Yet when I hear things like "they won't sit quietly at the desk for 40 minutes" - I'm not surprised.

Hey, it was your suggestion, remember - "research a character, write an essay..." Your denial is beneath you at this stage. 4 words I never thought I'd write: Don't feed the troll.[/QUOTE]

You make no sense

F

Benicetomonty

44leto wrote: »

Hey, it was your suggestion, remember - "research a character, write an essay..." Your denial is beneath you at this stage. 4 words I never thought I'd write: Don't feed the troll.

You make no sense

F[/QUOTE]

You should learn to teach so and offer me grinds. If only I could write that on all those essays I correct

Gophur

Also, what isn't mentioned, is the value of a teacher's pension.

At 40 years service, a teacher on the top of the scale, i.e. €53k (That's without any allowances), they will receive an annual pension of €26,500. To get that income from a bank deposit, one would have to have approx €530,000 in the Bank. (at 5% interest rate)

Add the lump sum payable on retirement and you will see the remuneration is more than generous, in fact, making many teachers millionaires.

tigger123

micropig wrote: »

Yes this is the internet, surely, somewhere on it you could find facts & figures to back up your argument


We're not your students here, who can be dictated to and believe every word you say because you're a teacher

I'm not a teacher.

Again, you've made the assertion earlier in the thread that the standards of education have fallen in the past 15 to 20 years, so it's up to you to back that up, it's not up to anyone else to disprove it. By the same logic I could assert that a green teapot is circling the earth and say it's so until you can disprove it.

I'm not "dictating" anything, I'm asking a question.

Barely Hedged

cursai wrote: »

But there only €200 a week better of. (Before expenses of working which are relevant to everyone who is working).
if they didnt work how much worse off would they be. €150+/-?? euro and a lot more free time.
Im not arguing the downsides of being unemployed. But wheres the incentive to not be. €150+/- is not much.
THAT has to be sorted first.

Isnt this the entry level rate you're talking about. Can you tell me what profession rewards recent graduates and entrants more than this?

It's a fact of building a professional career that you start off on the bottom of the pay scale and work up. Why should the teaching profession be anyway different or unique?

Hobbes

I know a good few teachers in personal life. Overall if you don't have tenure you are more or less screwed. You are left wondering if you still have a job year after year, and work extends well out of school hours.

Everyone bitching about teachers fails to realize it is damaging the children's future, and I don't mean in a spiteful teachers looking for revenge way either.

Barely Hedged

Hobbes wrote: »

Everyone bitching about teachers fails to realize it is damaging the children's future, and I don't mean in a spiteful teachers looking for revenge way either.

How?

Gophur

Hobbes wrote: »

...........
Everyone bitching about teachers fails to realize it is damaging the children's future, and I don't mean in a spiteful teachers looking for revenge way either.

Well, what do you mean?

P.C.

vamos! wrote: »

44leto wrote: »

But there are a lot of unemployed graduates who are flipping burgers or on the dole, I don't know why you feel because you are qualified you are automatically employed fulltime. You do know we are in a depression which hasn't even seen the bottom yet.

I sympathise as i do with any unemployed or underemployed person and I truly hope you do get a fulltime position, but I will not feel any sympathy or give any support to a teacher in a fulltime position who will shortly engage in industrial action. I think they have it good.

I never asked for sympathy and know how lucky I am to have any kind of a job, especially a job in my chosen sector. I do wish that non-teachers would recognise that not everyone is on full hours and that the cuts are disproportionate and affect the new entrants only. This is the bottom line. The Government has created a two-tiered system which is likely to have repercussions in the future when teacher retire and we discover that there are no senior teachers in the school, because they all upped sticks or retrained in 2012 when their wages were unfairly singled out for a cut!

I have to go and teach my final class- I promise it's well-prepared and doesn't involve reading from the book and sitting in silence for 45mins

Yes, this new 'salary' does only affect the new entrants only.
The ones already employed have contracts. They may be paid too much, but that is an argument for another day.

Are you happy with all those golden handshakes that civil servant have been getting the last few years, became I am not.
The only way to stop these is by getting the new entrants to sign different contracts.

It is not my fault that you are only entering the job market now. In fact it is no ones fault. That is just the way it is.

We need to fix the problem this country is in, one step at a time. And these new contracts is just one step. There will be more, probably not for teachers, but there will be for others in the public sector.

Mardy Bum

Gophur wrote: »

With all due respect to part-time teachers, you cannot expect to get paid a full week's wage for working less than a full week.

I don't think any of them expect to. People are saying they are part time because the majority of non teachers think that teachers now walk into a job for the rest of their lives. This is no longer the case. Even with the exit of older teachers now in February most schools thanks to the governments increased student teacher ratio are over the limit and these teachers won't be replaced. Almost every young teacher (<27) and NQT now will find themselves to be lucky to even get part time hours for the considerable future and be on yearly contracts. This encourages the brightest and best to go abroad and find a more permanent source of employment. Schooling is a crucial part to anybodies development and the government should be at least attempting to get the best into the industry. The private sector hours argument is a strawman also. The only way you can compare hours and wages is with other countries across the world and heres a study carried out across Europe by the ETI in 2008. Primary school teachers in a 2008 study by the European trade institute found Ireland the second highest in Europe in terms of hours. This has not changed since then. Ireland ranks in the top third in terms of hours in secondary schools also.

I am not saying the allowance should be kept for this reason as the country is screwed.

44leto

P.C. wrote: »

Yes, this new 'salary' does only affect the new entrants only.
The ones already employed have contracts. They may be paid too much, but that is an argument for another day.

Are you happy with all those golden handshakes that civil servant have been getting the last few years, became I am not.
The only way to stop these is by getting the new entrants to sign different contracts.

It is not my fault that you are only entering the job market now. In fact it is no ones fault. That is just the way it is.

We need to fix the problem this country is in, one step at a time. And these new contracts is just one step. There will be more, probably not for teachers, but there will be for others in the public sector.

I know the Defense Forces contracts for new entrants are very much a shadow of what entitlements the older members have. So this has started for quite a while now.

Gophur

The fact remains that teachers' employer is having to borrow the money to pay their salaries.

micropig

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Sigh. I don't think I specified anybody in particular but I guess this post can be identified as ridiculous beyond belief.

1) Authority is important but because expulsions still happen, it does not guarantee cooperation. The most authoratative teacher in Ireland has had at least one student that they couldn't discipline.

2) 'Boring'. This is a word at least one student per class has used/will use to describe every poet/novel/play and movie I have done and probably ever will on the English syllabus. And I fail them for it. And your use of it here deserves the same treatment.

3) Teachers can't compete with Playstations. No argument there. What's your point? When parents don't care, children can play the computer for 10 hours a day. A secondary school teacher will see them for 40 minutes. I have no idea what this means at all. Do you think it's bad teaching to expect a student to sit reasonably still for 40mins with a book and a copy and do some work? Or could that possibly be the student's problem and not the teacher's?

Benicetomonty wrote: »

.................

Again....what?......



Hey, it was your suggestion, remember - "research a character, write an essay..." Your denial is beneath you at this stage. 4 words I never thought I'd write: Don't feed the troll.

It was my suggestion to a teacher who wondered why children wouldn't sit at a desk for 40 minutes with a book and a copy, and considered this good teaching.

Break up your lessons. Ever heard of a starter, main body (split in to different tasks) and a plenary? This is a perfect example of bad, lazy teaching.


Teachers failing children because the children give feedback that the lessons are boring?

Benicetomonty wrote: »

You make no sense

F

You should learn to teach so and offer me grinds. If only I could write that on all those essays I correct

Since teachers don't seem to be able to figure out a way to reduce the amount of time spent doing corrections. Here it is:

Getting the students to use Peer assessment and self assessment, informally and formally throughout their tasks. They are often tougher than the teacher at picking up mistakes. All the teacher has to do is then is glance through them. Students learn on how to improve the next time (not all students will take on board or even read your comments) Why should they take your feedback when you don't respect them enough to take theirs?

44leto

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I don't think any of them expect to. People are saying they are part time because the majority of non teachers think that teachers now walk into a job for the rest of their lives. This is no longer the case. Even with the exit of older teachers now in February most schools thanks to the governments increased student teacher ratio are over the limit and these teachers won't be replaced. Almost every young teacher (<27) and NQT now will find themselves to be lucky to even get part time hours for the considerable future and be on yearly contracts. This encourages the brightest and best to go abroad and find a more permanent source of employment. Schooling is a crucial part to anybodies development and the government should be at least attempting to get the best into the industry. The private sector hours argument is a strawman also. The only way you can compare hours and wages is with other countries across the world and heres a study carried out across Europe by the ETI in 2008. Primary school teachers in a 2008 study by the European trade institute found Ireland the second highest in Europe in terms of hours. This has not changed since then. Ireland ranks in the top third in terms of hours in secondary schools also.

I am not saying the allowance should be kept for this reason as the country is screwed.

I seen that report earlier and we don't seem to be mentioned, but I then I seen this and surprise surprise we have the best paid teachers in Europe.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=teachers%20salaries%20in%20europe&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CEAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ronanlyons.com%2F2009%2F04%2F20%2Ftackling-the-thorny-issue-of-teachers-pay%2F&ei=BIQqT-YLi7qEB7HuufsK&usg=AFQjCNEyxQtQWaWjRMR4lc4LcfOeuNc18g&cad=rja

smash

The more I think about this, the more annoyed I get. With the obscene levels of government spending in Ireland, how dare they demand something like this be reinstated.

vamos!

micropig wrote: »

Break up your lessons. Ever heard of a starter, main body (split in to different tasks) and a plenary? This is a perfect example of bad, lazy teaching.





Since teachers don't seem to be able to figure out a way to reduce the amount of time spent doing corrections. Here it is:

Getting the students to use Peer assessment and self assessment, informally and formally throughout their tasks. They are often tougher than the teacher at picking up mistakes. All the teacher has to do is then is glance through them. Students learn on how to improve the next time (not all students will take on board or even read your comments) Why should they take your feedback when you don't respect them enough to take theirs?

Wow call Mr Quinn and tell him to hand over the reins to mircopig! AFL and peer assessment? Dividing a lesson into sections? Ground breaking stuff!

I wanted to point out that the removal of the allowances target the easy touch of new entrants. An honest pay cut would be fairer and more effective. Now that I have learned revolutionary teaching methods from a keyboard expert and made my point, I have had enough of this thread and the ramblings of a clueless troll. God bless the teacher fortunate enough to teach his/her children or future children. They will have their work cut out for them!

RobbieTheRobber

Gophur wrote: »

The fact remains that teachers' employer is having to borrow the money to pay their salaries.

Indeed their employer is, surely they should look at ways of diversifying their income revenue.
Perhaps they can sell advertisement space in schools, maybe introduce product placement.
Barbie dolls and game boys in all schools. Ad's from coca cola on the hour over the school intercom!