Unions Demand Return Of Teachers Allowances

Mardy Bum

44leto wrote: »

I seen that report earlier and we don't seem to be mentioned, but I then I seen this and surprise surprise we have the best paid teachers in Europe.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=teachers%20salaries%20in%20europe&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CEAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ronanlyons.com%2F2009%2F04%2F20%2Ftackling-the-thorny-issue-of-teachers-pay%2F&ei=BIQqT-YLi7qEB7HuufsK&usg=AFQjCNEyxQtQWaWjRMR4lc4LcfOeuNc18g&cad=rja

Those figures are pre-budget cuts and pre public sector ship jumping to save lump sum payments and are averages which if calculated now and in the next year will be much less. The argument is from newly qualified teachers who are been made bare the brunt of the older teachers and just want some parity with those in the sector. Teachers have been milking the system for years with posts and other such activities but now the axe has been taken to the next generation with very little care for the country's education by gutting the posts area and increasing teacher pupil ratios and limiting permanent positions.

44leto

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Indeed their employer is, surely they should look at ways of diversifying their income revenue.
Perhaps they can sell advertisement space in schools, maybe introduce product placement.
Barbie dolls and game boys in all schools. Ad's from coca cola on the hour over the school intercom!

Now you have it, you would make a fine minister.

You have to understand our public spending has to be cut, we have no choice, surely you can't expect education not to be an area of public spending not to be cut. Teachers pay will be reduced and class sizes will be increased unless off course we discover an oil field as big as the north sea in Dublin bay.

micropig

vamos! wrote: »

Planning and corrections- I would be interested to see how you could correct 28 higher level written pieces in 90 minutes. Correcting has moved on from the red tick or X you may have gotten in school. Errors are amended and comments are made. Ditto for exam papers. Tests and the likes are easy to mark, but still take time. Planning can be done at the start of the year, but resources, games, Power Points etc have to be made. None of this is rocket science, but it is very time consuming. High-quality notes and well-prepared lessons are becoming the norm, so preparation is time consuming.

Planning and sharing- Yes teachers in any of the schools I have been in work together and plan together. This saves time but a one size fits all approach doesn't work for the students. If this worked, we could just read from the book!

The likes of offering to teach someones class really gets my gall. Everybody has experienced school, but only a teacher actually knows exactly what their job entails. The best-prepared, most innovative lesson in the world won't help if there is more than 1 0r 2 trouble makers in the class. They have an insidious effect and the teacher ends up really having to fight to encourage the others to ignore it and work on. I can only speak for the schools I have worked in, but I have rarely head of a class where the students are expected to sit quietly for 40mins. Education has moved on and if you don't work in the sector, you are unlikely to know about it and are certainly not qualified to pop in to a class to 'teach'. Just as I won't be heading anywhere near other sectors telling them that I could do their job better than them and that they are overpaid and lazy!

Why is it taking you 90 minutes to correct 28 essays then?
Something not adding up here

Any why are teachers complaining that students won't sit at their desk for 40 minutes with a book and a copy? -They shouldn't be expected to:rolleyes:

44leto

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Those figures are pre-budget cuts and pre public sector ship jumping to save lump sum payments and are averages which if calculated now and in the next year will be much less. The argument is from newly qualified teachers who are been made bare the brunt of the older teachers and just want some parity with those in the sector. Teachers have been milking the system for years with posts and other such activities but now the axe has been taken to the next generation with very little care for the country's education by gutting the posts area and increasing teacher pupil ratios and limiting permanent positions.

The figures take the pension levy into consideration and they still do awfully good.

The new teachers like the rest of anyone entering the PS will not get the deal the PS have had since bench marking and that is our new reality. Ireland PLC is no bust.

Barely Hedged

micropig wrote: »

Why is it taking you 90 minutes to correct 28 essays then?
Something not adding up here

Any why are teachers complaining that students won't sit at their desk for 40 minutes with a book and a copy? -They shouldn't be expected to:rolleyes:

I'd say 90 minutes would be quite tight to correct 28 HL essays. It would take that amount of time minimum

micropig

44leto wrote: »

I seen that report earlier and we don't seem to be mentioned, but I then I seen this and surprise surprise we have the best paid teachers in Europe.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=teachers%20salaries%20in%20europe&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CEAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ronanlyons.com%2F2009%2F04%2F20%2Ftackling-the-thorny-issue-of-teachers-pay%2F&ei=BIQqT-YLi7qEB7HuufsK&usg=AFQjCNEyxQtQWaWjRMR4lc4LcfOeuNc18g&cad=rja

And one of the worse education systems.


Link to compare any two countries education system

http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php

http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/edu-education

micropig

Barely Hedged wrote: »

I'd say 90 minutes would be quite tight to correct 28 HL essays. It would take that amount of time minimum

Not if they're already pre-corrected by the students:rolleyes:

micropig

tigger123 wrote: »

I'm not a teacher.

Again, you've made the assertion earlier in the thread that the standards of education have fallen in the past 15 to 20 years, so it's up to you to back that up, it's not up to anyone else to disprove it. By the same logic I could assert that a green teapot is circling the earth and say it's so until you can disprove it.

I'm not "dictating" anything, I'm asking a question.

I backed up my figures with links many times in the thread with links, if you have a read back

but nobody wants to read them (I even constructed a little table)

Still waiting for links to proove otherwise

Mardy Bum

44leto wrote: »

The figures take the pension levy into consideration and they still do awfully good.

The new teachers like the rest of anyone entering the PS will not get the deal the PS have had since bench marking and that is our new reality. Ireland PLC is no bust.

Exactly and thats why NQTs are looking for some parity. The union is only making this argument because they are afraid the NQTs will turn on it. Every teacher should have to carry this cut not just NQTs. Anybody who cannot see this needs to evaluate their critical faculties.

Barely Hedged

micropig wrote: »

Not if they're already pre-corrected by the students:rolleyes:

From personal experience in my school days, I'd say the insight that would be offered into my essays and how I could better my next one by more that 80% of my class mates would be utter sh1te

RichieC

I'd love to see how all the anti teachers lot here would cope with a room of ****rats all day..

micropig

Barely Hedged wrote: »

From personal experience in my school days, I'd say the insight that would be offered into my essays and how I could better my next one by more that 80% of my class mates would be utter sh1te

You'd be suprised, If you teach the children how to do it properly, they can often be harsher. Teacher just has to monitor it then. This works perfectly in other countries around the world and is seen as progressive.


Just don't let their best mate correct it!

micropig

RichieC wrote: »

I'd love to see how all the anti teachers lot here would cope with a room of ****rats all day..

Done it many a time

And if a person has an attitude like this towards children they are not suited to the teaching profession-Work in a different sector

Barely Hedged

micropig wrote: »

You'd be suprised, If you teach the children how to do it properly, they can often be harsher. Teacher just has to monitor it then. This works perfectly in other countries around the world and is seen as progressive.


Just don't let their best mate correct it!

I agree with your point and it is a refreshing approach compared to the way I was thought but it is cruical to get the students on board. It's amazing the insight you gain into you're own work when you're role in such a case is reversed.

I think in classes less than HL where the variance in abilities is much greater I'd say you'd have great difficulty in getting the students to buy into it and the return on such an approach would be quite limited. Even in HL, the class has to be quite focused and motivated on doing well. Unfortunately in my experience, and is the same in many schools from this large socio-economice background, that even people in HL couldnt be arsed and are only there because their the best of a bad lot.

Gophur

RichieC wrote: »

I'd love to see how all the anti teachers lot here would cope with a room of ****rats all day..

A common retort and not true. People are not anti-teacher, they are, however, expressing valid opinions. Criticising the salaries of teachers does not mean one is anti-teacher.

Teachers, like any other profession, should be able to justify their salaries. To retort that a critic of the salary, or the cost of a teacher, is anti-teacher, does no good.

micropig

Barely Hedged wrote: »

I agree with your point and it is a refreshing approach compared to the way I was thought but it is cruical to get the students on board. It's amazing the insight you gain into you're own work when you're role in such a case is reversed.

I think in classes less than HL where the variance in abilities is much greater I'd say you'd have great difficulty in getting the students to buy into it and the return on such an approach would be quite limited. Even in HL, the class has to be quite focused and motivated on doing well. Unfortunately in my experience, and is the same in many schools from this large socio-economice background, that even people in HL couldnt be arsed and are only there because their the best of a bad lot.

Students need to be trained in this, just a teacher does.

Don't agree it won't work, because it does. Students don't really care what they write when they think it's only the teacher who will read it and add some comments at the end

They will however put in a bit more effort if they know their other classmates are going to be looking at it.


Their will be some students who are just not capable of doing it - but then I think their lessons should be more practical. If they are not capable of correcting an essay (after being trained since primary school/1st year to do this), they are not capable of writing the essay in the first place and the type of tasks they teacher asks them to do should be different

44leto

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Exactly and thats why NQTs are looking for some parity. The union is only making this argument because they are afraid the NQTs will turn on it. Every teacher should have to carry this cut not just NQTs. Anybody who cannot see this needs to evaluate their critical faculties.

No I don't see it that way, the people who have signed the original contracts are in that legal position, it would be very difficult for any employer to get them to sign new contracts that will give them a lesser deal.

So if you are suggesting that EVERY new member of the PS should get offered the old generous terms in this current climate and lets be honest, the future does not look that bright either, you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

micropig

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Exactly and thats why NQTs are looking for some parity. The union is only making this argument because they are afraid the NQTs will turn on it. Every teacher should have to carry this cut not just NQTs. Anybody who cannot see this needs to evaluate their critical faculties.

What does the teachers union say about this? (The strongest union in the country)

It is your union who has failed you.

I agree that not just NQTs should be effected, there is room for serious cuts all across the range

Barely Hedged

micropig wrote: »

Students need to be trained in this, just a teacher does.

Don't agree it won't work, because it does. Students don't really care what they write when they think it's only the teacher who will read it and add some comments at the end

They will however put in a bit more effort if they know their other classmates are going to be looking at it.


Their will be some students who are just not capable of doing it - but then I think their lessons should be more practical. If they are not capable of correcting an essay (after being trained since primary school/1st year to do this), they are not capable of writing the essay in the first place and the type of tasks they teacher asks them to do should be different

I dont agree they'll put more effort into it if other students are reading it. Distrust among class mates can be much greater than that of the teacher. These are young kids and teenagers and the vast majority are not rational like adults and can bear grudges, dislike people etc etc over very silly things. The last thing they want is more interaction with these class mates.

If it's something that's going to be introduced from primary school up and something that is reinforced every year im all for it. As it is now would it be true to say that this is not an official policy and as a result that some do it, some dont? This disjointed approach is not very constructive and leads to my opinion from paragraph one.

Feeona

The guy who started this thread is quite clearly anti public sector. If he'd wanted a discussion with educated input from both sides, he wouldn't have put it in After Hours. But that would be expecting too much from a virulent bottom feeder.

Stark

But allowances "don't count as salary" so there should be no problem here, right?

Stark

But allowances "don't count as salary" so there should be no problem here, right?

44leto

Feeona wrote: »

The guy who started this thread is quite clearly anti public sector. If he'd wanted a discussion with educated input from both sides, he wouldn't have put it in After Hours. But that would be expecting too much from a virulent bottom feeder.

But you are getting a discussion and if the debate came out on your side I am sure you would feel differently about AHs debates. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted in this thread,

Seachmall

Feeona wrote: »

The guy who started this thread is quite clearly anti public sector. If he'd wanted a discussion with educated input from both sides, he wouldn't have put it in After Hours. But that would be expecting too much from a virulent bottom feeder.

Can't win debate.
Call everyone names.

Welcome to AH, you'll fit right in.

Mardy Bum

44leto wrote: »

No I don't see it that way, the people who have signed the original contracts are in that legal position, it would be very difficult for any employer to get them to sign new contracts that will give them a lesser deal.

So if you are suggesting that EVERY new member of the PS should get offered the old generous terms in this current climate and lets be honest, the future does not look that bright either, you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

So now you are defending the old guard of teachers? Their employer is the government it has quite a bit of power.

How and where did I suggest this, I suggested the exact opposite. I've said numerous times the country needs to make cuts like this. You are making an argument where there is not any.

Feeona

44leto wrote: »

But you are getting a discussion and if the debate came out on your side I am sure you would feel differently about AHs debates. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted in this thread,

Seachmall wrote: »

Can't win debate.
Call everyone names.

Welcome to AH, you'll fit right in.

You two must be having a field day with the anti public sector sentiment in this thread.

Jealousy will get you nowhere lads.

micropig

Barely Hedged wrote: »

I dont agree they'll put more effort into it if other students are reading it. Distrust among class mates can be much greater than that of the teacher. These are young kids and teenagers and the vast majority are not rational like adults and can bear grudges, dislike people etc etc over very silly things. The last thing they want is more interaction with these class mates.

If it's something that's going to be introduced from primary school up and something that is reinforced every year im all for it. As it is now would it be true to say that this is not an official policy and as a result that some do it, some dont? This disjointed approach is not very constructive and leads to my opinion from paragraph one.

Read up about peer assessment it can develop trust.

Here's one link but they're are many others
It works perfectly- if you don't try it you will never know
http://www.nclrc.org/essentials/assessing/peereval.htm

Why does it have to be official policy? Teachers are complaining about the heavy workload correcting students work. This is an effective way of cutting their workload, leaving them more time to focus on correcting exam years.

A teacher can introduce to the students at the start of the year and the students will learn this is the way this teacher does things.(although it should be introduced from primary school onwards)

Seachmall

Feeona wrote: »

You two must be having a field day with the anti public sector sentiment in this thread.

Have moronic post pointed out.
Guess poster's position on matter and attack that.


Jaysus, you're already part of the AH family!

Freddie59

Feeona wrote: »

The guy who started this thread is quite clearly anti public sector. If he'd wanted a discussion with educated input from both sides, he wouldn't have put it in After Hours. But that would be expecting too much from a virulent bottom feeder.

I presume from you nasty little contribution that you are public sector. As 'the guy who started the thread' I am more than entitled to do so, given the drain on Public Finances, with EIGHTY PERCENT of the education budget going on wages alone.

So before you go criticising people who dare to question this madness, take a reality check.

44leto

Mardy Bum wrote: »

So now you are defending the old guard of teachers? Their employer is the government it has quite a bit of power.

How and where did I suggest this, I suggested the exact opposite. I've said numerous times the country needs to make cuts like this. You are making an argument where there is not any.

yes I see that now, apologies I misinterpreted your post.

micropig

Freddie59 wrote: »

I presume from you nasty little contribution that you are public sector. As 'the guy who started the thread' I am more than entitled to do so, given the drain on Public Finances, with EIGHTY PERCENT of the education budget going on wages alone.

So before you go criticising people who dare to question this madness, take a reality check.

I for one Freddie would like to thank you very much for starting this thread as it highlights teachers attitude approaching their work, solving problems, their debating skills and their sense of entitlement.

Feeona

Seachmall wrote: »

Have moronic post pointed out.
Guess poster's position on matter and attack that.


Jaysus, you're already part of the AH family!

Freddie59 wrote: »

I presume from you nasty little contribution that you are public sector. As 'the guy who started the thread' I am more than entitled to do so, given the drain on Public Finances, with EIGHTY PERCENT of the education budget going on wages alone.

So before you go criticising people who dare to question this madness, take a reality check.

Bitter, bitter people.

Just suck it up there boys, one day you'll be doing something worthwhile with your time.

44leto

Feeona wrote: »

You two must be having a field day with the anti public sector sentiment in this thread.

Jealousy will get you nowhere lads.

I am public sector, but even I recognise I am underworked and overpaid.

I admit that, why can't you.

Barely Hedged

micropig wrote: »

Read up about peer assessment it can develop trust.

Here's one link but they're are many others
It works perfectly- if you don't try it you will never know
http://www.nclrc.org/essentials/assessing/peereval.htm

Why does it have to be official policy? Teachers are complaining about the heavy workload correcting students work. This is an effective way of cutting their workload, leaving them more time to focus on correcting exam years.

A teacher can introduce to the students at the start of the year and the students will learn this is the way this teacher does things.(although it should be introduced from primary school onwards)

Yes, that is true but if done in a disjointed way with one teacher doing it and the other not it fails to have the impact intended and kids will just mean revert.

The reason I was wondering if it was policy is because any profession this heavily unionised will not do anything or entice members to do anything that's not official policy. Sure why would the unions - there's nothing of monetary value in it for their members.

micropig

Barely Hedged wrote: »

Yes, that is true but if done in a disjointed way with one teacher doing it and the other not it fails to have the impact intended and kids will just mean revert.

The reason I was wondering if it was policy is because any profession this heavily unionised will not do anything or entice members to do anything that's not official policy. Sure why would the unions - there's nothing of monetary value in it for their members.

It will have an impact by reducing the teachers workload and will improve the more the students do it.

Agreed, the unions would have to make it official policy before anything is done, no point on expecting teachers to use their own initiative and control what goes on in their classroom:rolleyes:

Feeona

44leto wrote: »

I am public sector, but even I recognise I am underworked and overpaid.

I admit that, why can't you.

Maybe because due to cutbacks I'm not getting paid?

44leto

Feeona wrote: »

Maybe because due to cutbacks I'm not getting paid?

If it was a cutback you are still getting paid, but less, or were you laid off which is nearly impossible in the PS and I know this.

Where To

Feeona wrote: »

Bitter, bitter people.

Just suck it up there boys, one day you'll be doing something worthwhile with your time.

The only bitter people that I can see in this thread are those struggling with the realisation that their chosen profession is viewed as no more or less demanding, stressful, meaningful or downright superior to any other (be it garda, nurse, doctor, busdriver or binman) by the general public.

Some of the best educators have never stepped foot in a classroom and have no qualifications whatsoever.*

*a teacher told me that

Feeona

44leto wrote: »

If it was a cutback you are still getting paid, but less, or were you laid off which is nearly impossible in the PS and I know this.

Ok I'll put it in plain English-I don't have a job. The school I was working in last year lost a teacher due to increase in class sizes. I was that lucky teacher.

Feeona

where do i go from here wrote: »

The only bitter people that I can see in this thread are those struggling with the realisation that their chosen profession is viewed as no more or less demanding, stressful, meaningful or downright superior to any other (be it garda, nurse, doctor, busdriver or binman) by the general public.

I think you're blinkered if you believe this. Only a bitter person could start a thread like this one.

micropig

Feeona wrote: »

Ok I'll put it in plain English-I don't have a job. The school I was working in last year lost a teacher due to increase in class sizes. I was that lucky teacher.

Many people don't have jobs. Just because you trained as a teacher does not entitle you to a job, no more than anyone else.

If having trouble finding work in teaching, look at retraining in other sectors - Many other people have done it. Your teaching qualification will not be a waste because you have gained some communication skills etc, and these are transferable. If you really want to be in the role of a teacher have you looked at jobs, as a trainer in the private sector? ie training people starting work in a factory etc?

Feeona

Seachmall wrote: »

:pac:



I never sank this low before.

EDIT : I'll take it to PM

Seachmall

Feeona wrote: »

You think it's funny I lost my job?


Wanker tbh

I don't think it's funny. I think your comments were obnoxious and I responded as such.


I apologize for that comment by the way, I've deleted it. It was completely unnecessary, sorry.


The other comments I maintain.

44leto

Feeona wrote: »

Ok I'll put it in plain English-I don't have a job. The school I was working in last year lost a teacher due to increase in class sizes. I was that lucky teacher.

I am sorry to hear that. But you did accuse me of being bitter.

Feeona

44leto wrote: »

I am sorry to hear that. But you did accuse me of being bitter.

No I didn't

Feeona

micropig wrote: »

Many people don't have jobs. Just because you trained as a teacher does not entitle you to a job, no more than anyone else.

If having trouble finding work in teaching, look at retraining in other sectors - Many other people have done it. Your teaching qualification will not be a waste because you have gained some communication skills etc, and these are transferable. If you really want to be in the role of a teacher have you looked at jobs, as a trainer in the private sector? ie training people starting work in a factory etc?

Another poster didn't believe that I lost my job, or wasn't getting paid, and I clarified it for them.

If you want to take it off on this tangent, be my guest.

micropig

Southeast1 wrote: »

Micropig,
Ive been off line for the last few hours as im sure you noticed. However i feel compelled to comment on your figures. Im not sure what sort of a website this is but its figure are totally off. First of all primary education in ireland is 8 not 6 years.
Secondary can be 5 but more often is 6.

Just to pick up on this point about the figures I quoted

Junior and senior infants are seen to be on par with kindergarden in other countries.

Wiki link I know but I'll provide more if required (and the opposite of this is backed up by link)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland


Maybe we should also look at downgrading the salaries of teachers who teacher these years in line with other childcare providers?


Transition year -is usually & should be filled with activities to improve the life skills of pupils, not academic achievement focused towards exams

Where To

Feeona wrote: »

I think you're blinkered if you believe this. Only a bitter person could start a thread like this one.

So you think teachers deserve to be treated differently than everyone else?

Seriously?

Feeona

where do i go from here wrote: »

So you think teachers deserve to be treated differently than everyone else?

Seriously?

Freddie59

44leto wrote: »

I am public sector, but even I recognise I am underworked and overpaid.

I admit that, why can't you.

Fair play to you for your honesty. She can't admit it, because she is an actual bottom feeder.