This type of Installer will destroy the Aerial business

Cesium Clock

cast_iron wrote: »

I find this very hard to believe. I've asked for evidence a few times and none is forthcoming.

I think you are confusing "saorview" and the "saorview logo"?
They make it perfectly clear the logo is copyright and this I accept fully.

Saying an installer can't use the word "saorview" is ridiculous. If a customer asks the installer "will this aerial get me saorview?", according to you, all the installer can say is "i'm not allowed say".
And I'm not sure why scaller is thanking the post, as the post says you can't use the word "saorview" at all. Not great for business, I'd say.

no I am not, you are saying anyone can install 'Saorview', which no one can, its a brand name for the content, delivery and reception etc, of Irish DTT, therefore you cannot install 'Saorview'.

In your post earlier you should of used the word aerial or such not 'Saorview',

With statements like that no wonder 'Done Deal' is crawling with 'Saorview installers'.

liamtech

Two pence worth from a novice/enthusiast!

I think the problem in general is that door to door/done deal sellers and installers are not being clear about what it is there selling.

Example - there are many adverts for the Ariva 120 Combi that describe it as a Freesat/Saorview Combo Box - Now that's plainly not true but to those users who are not up on this technology, it is VERY confusing:

I would immediately say as i have in previous posts that I absolutely love the Ariva 120 Combi despite the fact that i dont own one- its easy to use, quick to set up, and cheap enough as to be an affordable alternative to Sky or UPC..

Obviously it has draw backs... No auto tuning of satellite stations, no red button access, not a true twin tuner, and no MHEG5 -

The problem is that people dont actually realize what that means! and these guys selling Ariva's as Freesat/Saorview Combo Boxes are obviously to blame-

I am an enthusiast, in that i believe that a FTA alternative to SKY or UPC has a Serious chance of making in roads in the irish market, but these rogue sellers are going to muddy the water - as soon as a MAJOR frequency change occurs this forum is going to be full of threads asking questions about missing stations -

Imagine what will happen when BBC re-organizes its stations or moves some of them to astra 1n... a lot of unsuspecting users are going to freak out and SKY will have a field day!

As to the installation of aerials, well i have always set my own gear up, which means if there's a problem its obviously my fault! But the installations shown here by Scaller and others are obviously going to cause a lot of issues for users. Saorview obviously adamantly recommend certified products, and thats their business - i have no issue with FTA non certified gear - but SAORVIEW really should put more emphasis on getting REPUTABLE INSTALLERS - That is potentially MORE IMPORTANT than the box -

If you deal with a reputable seller/installer then they will

• Explain the difference between Freesat & Saorview and plain FTA boxes and combis
• Install the box AND AERIAL/DISH CORRECTLY
• Provide some support for their customers in the form of what to do when Frequency changes occur - and basic manual tuning procedures

Otherwise users are going to be genuinely confused and annoyed - I have already been asked by a friend of the family a while back if these 'Free TV stations' are like a certain dodgy Digital Cable Box that made the rounds a few years ago - I explained to him the obvious difference in terms of Legality but i could see the confusion

Bruthal

Cesium Clock wrote: »

no I am not, you are saying anyone can install 'Saorview', which no one can, its a brand name for the content, delivery and reception etc, of Irish DTT, therefore you cannot install 'Saorview'.

In your post earlier you should of used the word aerial or such not 'Saorview',

With statements like that no wonder 'Done Deal' is crawling with 'Saorview installers'.

So i guess if some potential customer calls, and asks for the saorview to be installed, you wont have a clue what they are asking for?

cast_iron

Cesium Clock wrote: »

no I am not, you are saying anyone can install 'Saorview', which no one can,

So which installers can install saorview?

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

So which installers can install saorview?

None, no more than anyone could install BBC or ITV . What you can do is install a system capable of receiving such and I think this is where the problem is arising with regard to the terms being used causing confusion.

St Senan

Tony wrote: »

None, no more than anyone could install BBC or ITV . What you can do is install a system capable of receiving such and I think this is where the problem is arising in terms of the terms being used causing confusion.

Bang on Tony.

Bruthal

Tony wrote: »

None, no more than anyone could install BBC or ITV . What you can do is install a system capable of receiving such and I think this is where the problem is arising with regard to the terms being used causing confusion.

Interesting looking combo box that ariva 120. I put up an aerial a year ago after cancelling sky, and have a saorview box upstairs. That 120 looks ideal for downstairs before the aso.

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

None, no more than anyone could install BBC or ITV . What you can do is install a system capable of receiving such and I think this is where the problem is arising with regard to the terms being used causing confusion.

But what's the difference? Installers can do the whole job but never call it "Saorview"? Seriously?

My money is that people have confused the copyright of the "Saorview logo" and the service "Saorview".

What in effect is being said here is that ISAA installers that can carry the saorview logo on their vans can never say they can install saorview. I'm sorry but that's frankly ridiculous.

Peter Rhea

Yes, if Saorview are certifying equipment, they should have no objections to installations using this equipment being referred to as 'Saorview installations'. Once the logo is on the box or tv, what do they expect?

Cantona's Collars

1000 posts Peter.:cool:

Peter Rhea

Yeah, doesn't seem like over a year. :pac:

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

But what's the difference? Installers can do the whole job but never call it "Saorview"? Seriously?

No, if they install a Saorview approved box with an aerial they can say its a saorview system. If its a generic DTT receiver or a combo you cannot call it saorview even though it receives exactly the same channels.

cast_iron wrote: »

What in effect is being said here is that ISAA installers that can carry the saorview logo on their vans can never say they can install saorview. I'm sorry but that's frankly ridiculous.

I think your missing the point here and I don't think anyone is saying that. Saorview is a broadcast system , it would be like saying you can install Astra 2 in someones house which is obviously impossible as its a satellite.

Bruthal

Tony wrote: »

I think your missing the point here. Saorview is a broadcast system , it would be like saying you can install Astra 2 in someones house which is obviously impossible as its a satellite.

I dont think anyone is missing that point, it cant be more simple. But the fact is, in every day life, descriptions are often formed around the basis of whats being described.

I never heard anyone with the sky system mention that they had the astra2 installed. Most would say they had sky put in though, and everyone would know exactly what they mean.

This is just arguing over words.

Tony

robbie7730 wrote: »

This is just arguing over words.

I agree it is but the problem in the case of Saorview is that the actual description or choice of words of what it is being installed is crucial as its possible to supply a receiver that although it will receive the channels it is not a Saorview approved receiver. If you have sky put in you get a sky box

Theres no problem in selling a non approved receiver as long as the customer is made aware of this and can make an informed choice.

Cantona's Collars

Here's a company that has no less than 6 ads on Donedeal advertising Combo box installs.No mention of the boxes not being approved but the ad on Donedeal uses "SaorviewHD" in it's wording.

http://www.freetoairireland.com/index.htm

http://www.donedeal.ie/find/all/for-sale/Ireland/saorview

PressTheButton

Apparently Homer believes antenna should be on roof - especially with all those high leafy trees around, d'oh!

scruffy66 wrote: »

... some of the posts ive read remind
me of the Comic Book store owner from the SIMSONS.

Comic Book Guy would not be impressed with your sarcasm!

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

No, if they install a Saorview approved box with an aerial they can say its a saorview system. If its a generic DTT receiver or a combo you cannot call it saorview even though it receives exactly the same channels.

Says who?

I tend to agree with you on the point you make, but it's semantics what we call it. The simple fact is as long as the customers are told the difference between approved and non-approved boxes, it really makes no odds what anyone calls it.

Saorview themselves say:
Set-top-boxes will vary in terms of functionality, quality and price. Some set-top-boxes will allow for digital recording, while others will decode satellite signals in addition to the SAORVIEW signal. Be sure to ask your retailer to explain the different options to you.

My point here is that some companies are condemned and criticised with no evidence that they are not explaining the difference between the types of boxes to the customer.

The Saorview rep also today effectively stated that some door to door sales may well be legitimate.

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

Says who?

The sale of goods act for starters "Goods must be as described etc"

cast_iron wrote: »

I tend to agree with you on the point you make, but it's semantics what we call it. The simple fact is as long as the customers are told the difference between approved and non-approved boxes, it really makes no odds what anyone calls it.

If your on the receiving end of a bad deal then its hardly semantics

Kind of a contradiction there is it not? If its a non approved box then its not Saorview so why call it that ?

FRIENDO

Tony wrote: »

The sale of goods act for starters "Goods must be as described etc"

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/print.html#sec10
Section 10. (13)
Sale by description.

"13.—(1) Where there is a contract for the sale of goods by description, there is an implied condition that the goods shall correspond with the description; and if the sale be by sample as well as by description, it is not sufficient that the bulk of the goods corresponds with the sample if the goods do not also correspond with the description.

(2) A sale of goods shall not be prevented from being a sale by description by reason only that, being exposed for sale, they are selected by the buyer.

(3) A reference to goods on a label or other descriptive matter accompanying goods exposed for sale may constitute or form part of a description.

Implied undertakings as to quality or fitness."

Thanks Tony, I actually went and had a read, My first time to read that Act.:)

Cesium Clock

cast_iron wrote: »

The Saorview rep also today effectively stated that some door to door sales may well be legitimate.

Neither SAORVIEW nor RTÉ has commissioned or endorsed any door-to-door sales activities under the SAORVIEW or RTÉ brands. The SAORVIEW logo is not permitted for use by any direct sales companies. Any approach from door-to-door sellers purporting to be acting for SAORVIEW is categorically not endorsed by SAORVIEW.
We are aware of a small number of people misrepresenting themselves as employees of RTÉ or SAORVIEW. Some of these people may be wearing clothing with the RTÉ or SAORVIEW logos, these people are not employees or agents of RTÉ or SAORVIEW. Appropriate action is being taken against anyone misusing either brand to further their sales activities.
There may be genuine door-to-door sales people in your area offering legitimate services associated with digital switchover. As with any stranger appearing on your doorstep, please exercise caution when dealing with any person offering to install a set-top-box or suggesting you need a new aerial installation*.

as above from saorview website

no 'saorview' selling, but services associated with the digital switchover.

they are taking action against anyone misusing the brands 'RTE' and 'Saorview' to further their sales activity.

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

The sale of goods act for starters "Goods must be as described etc"

Correct.
But as I said earlier:
"The simple fact is as long as the customers are told the difference between approved and non-approved" boxes, it really makes no odds what anyone calls it.

That would cover all angles form the installer's point of view. If someone is willing to accept a door to door sale, the intricacies of consumer law will be lost on them anyway.

Kind of a contradiction there is it not? If its a non approved box then its not Saorview so why call it that ?

Because it will receive all the Saorview channels. Again, if the customer is made aware of the differences between approved and non-approved, then there should be no issue.

cast_iron

zerks wrote: »

Here's a company that has no less than 6 ads on Donedeal advertising Combo box installs.No mention of the boxes not being approved but the ad on Donedeal uses "SaorviewHD" in it's wording.

What is the problem here?

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

If someone is willing to accept a door to door sale, the intricacies of consumer law will be lost on them anyway.

Wow theres a sweepeing generalised statement if ever I saw one . I doubt the NCA would share your view on what consititutes a saorview box and what does'nt. I think we will have to agree to differ on this point.

A very similar thing happened (and still does) with guys calling free to air boxes "Freesat boxes" and I know from talking to many many people over the years that in the majority of cases the difference between the two was not explained to them. I strongly suspect that similar is happening with saorview and DTT boxes

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

Wow theres a sweepeing generalised statement if ever I saw one . I doubt the NCA would share your view on what consititutes a saorview box and what does'nt. I think we will have to agree to differ on this point.

A very similar thing happened (and still does) with guys calling free to air boxes "Freesat boxes" and I know from talking to many many people over the years that in the majority of cases the difference between the two was not explained to them. I strongly suspect that similar is happening with saorview and DTT boxes

Your right in all you say Tony, and no one will disagree as to what is a Saorview box. There will be differing opinions as to whether the householder fully understood what they were buying though, and my point is that those who would happily be sold a non-approved box by a cowboy, probably wouldn't even know how or who to complain to.
I have no time for door to door selling personally, and would advise people to avoid it at all costs and do their own research before buying anything.
That's not to say it's wrong or illegal. Saorview themselves say it may well be legitimate.

Cantona's Collars

cast_iron wrote: »

What is the problem here?

Blinkered view for the sake of argument stops you from seeing the obvious problem with the ad.

I'll spell it out :Saorview logo being used to sell NON-CERTIFIED equipment.

Here's a simple comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGEvdM9f6f4

cast_iron

zerks wrote: »

I'll spell it out :Saorview logo being used to sell NON-CERTIFIED equipment.

I don't see the logo anywhere on those links. And where does it say the Saorview boxes are non-approved?

Cantona's Collars

They've edited their ads:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Here's their website. http://www.freetoairireland.com/index.htm

St Senan

Zerks there is another Guy on Done deal saying this

SAORVIEW IS IRELAND'S FRIST (First) FREE TO AIR DIGITAL TELEVISON SERVICES. IT BRINGS YOU ALL YOUR FAVOURTE CHANNELS (RTE 1, RTE 2, TV3, TG4, 3E, RTE NEWS, BBC1, BBC2, BBC3, BBC4, ITV 1, ITV2, ITV3, ITV4, SKY NEWS, CHANNEL4, E4, CHANNEL5, FILM4, MORE4, CBS ACTION, CBS DRAMA, CBS REALITY, TRUE MOVIES, TRUE ENT, HORROR CHANNEL, CBBC CHANNEL, C BEEBIES, TINY POP, POP, THE VAULT, CHART SHOW TV, GREATEST HITS, HORSE AND COUNTRY AND MANY MORE ONCE OFF PAYMENT) CRYSTAL CLEAR PICTURE ALL FOR FREE. GET READY FOR THE DIGITAL SWITCH OVER IN 2012.

Someone should inform him that there are no UK channels available on Saorview in Cork. But if he is using a non approved Mpeg4/DTT/Generic FTA satellite COMBI box then these channels would be receivable in Cork. But that type of box is not saorview approved, I don't think any Ferguson ariva receivers are saorview approved and it needs retuning every time there is a TP or frequency change and an unsuspecting customer wouldnt know this or how to retune this sort of box.

cast_iron

zerks wrote: »

They've edited their ads:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Do I have to keep spelling it out?
I see nothing wrong with what's on their website either.

scruffy66

zerks wrote: »

They've edited their ads:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Here's their website. http://www.freetoairireland.com/index.htm

If that is the best web site this guy can come up with i wouldn't worry about
him. There is no landline either , most intelligent people woudn't ring a so called company unless they had a landline.

Its just nice to know the guy fitting your TV system doesn't live in his van.

Cesium Clock

scruffy66 wrote: »

If that is the best web site this guy can come up with i wouldn't worry about
him. There is no landline either , most intelligent people woudn't ring a so called company unless they had a landline.

Its just nice to know the guy fitting your TV system doesn't live in his van.

its just a throw back from when 'Dodgey boxes' were available,

everyone knew it was available, but had little faith or life expectancy from the product,

its a shame that free to air services do not receive the same publicity as pay providers.

scruffy66

Cesium Clock wrote: »

its just a throw back from when 'Dodgey boxes' were available,

everyone knew it was available, but had little faith or life expectancy from the product,

its a shame that free to air services do not receive the same publicity as pay providers.

I think the ISAA should get all its members to join a trade union ,preferably one that pays towards the labor party,maybe then we can get the ear of the RABBIT and put some pressure on saorview to put the public in touch with legitimate tax paying , PL insured ,VAT registered and of course members of an approved body, INSTALLERS.

Almost sounds to much to ask of SAORVIEW.

NewHillel

scruffy66 wrote: »

I think the ISAA should get all its members to join a trade union ,preferably one that pays towards the labor party,maybe then we can get the ear of the RABBIT and put some pressure on saorview to put the public in touch with legitimate tax paying , PL insured ,VAT registered and of course members of an approved body, INSTALLERS.

Almost sounds to much to ask of SAORVIEW.

It is too much to ask because there are no approved bodies, ISAA, or otherwise. The Industry is unregulated and RTE have no authority to regulate it. Every post that misrepresents this position damages the ISAA further. So does every post that suggests that ISAA members are 'Saorview registered' or 'Saorview Approved'.

The Cush

This from the Wexford People, not enough installers in the country to handle the workload leading up to ASO it appears

Wexfordpeople.ie

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Cesium Clock

NewHillel wrote: »

It is too much to ask because there are no approved bodies, ISAA, or otherwise. The Industry is unregulated and RTE have no authority to regulate it. Every post that misrepresents this position damages the ISAA further. So does every post that suggests that ISAA members are 'Saorview registered' or 'Saorview Approved'.

Scruufy66 should of used the word 'recognised' instead of 'approved',

I am struggling to find any post that sugests ISAA members are 'registered' or 'approved', but it is easy to find a lot of posts by your good self criticzing the ISAA at every oppertunity.

St Senan

The Cush wrote: »

This from the Wexford People, not enough installers in the country to handle the workload leading up to ASO it appears

There is enough legit Tax paying Aerial riggers in Ireland to cope with the switch-over if they were allowed to continue to work. But they cant cope with the amount of chancers self called "Saorview Approved installers" and 1 weeks "qualified" fetac leval 5 cctv/Alarm cable cert Satellite / Digital Saor TV Installer. This crowd have used the Saorview name in a roundabout way to their advantage.

Digital Saor TV installer. why don't they use Digital Free TV installer. and play ball on a level playing field along with the Aerial riggers who still have restrictions placed on them.

Has RTE/Saorview been in contact with them.

icdg

Can I again ask that the pro-ISAA/anti-ISAA arguments be taken elsewhere. This forum isn't the place for it. I don't want to bring in a formal rule banning discussion of trade associations but TBH that is the direction we are heading if it keeps up.

Can we also keep the heat (and use of bold) down.

Lastly but most importantly, can I ask people NOT to make particular allegations against particular installers. We know that there are unscrupulous installers out there - I myself have seen plenty of posters about my locality advertising "Sign Up to Saorview - Free-To-Air Satellite TV - 200 Channels", which given that Saorview is digital terrestrial, has 8 channels, and you do not ever "sign up" to it, is very wrong. Nonetheless I'd ask people to be careful about this.

I'm watching this thread. If any of the above is ignored, closure is an option.

St Senan

More good and tidy installs from some qualified and professional installers let loose on the unsuspecting public and are ruining this business.

Sponge Bob

Ahhhhh, my favourite. Sky Installers.

Premier

scaller wrote: »

More good and tidy installs from some qualified and professional installers let loose on the unsuspecting public and are ruining this business.

Na Scaller it just has to be this, picture of the year award, and this installer told the owner after being paid that it will come on in a couple of hours :rolleyes: I did have to look twice thought i was seeing things

Installer.jpg

cast_iron

scaller wrote: »

More good and tidy installs from some qualified and professional installers let loose on the unsuspecting public and are ruining this business.

Shameful installs. Look like DIY jobs. Are we sure they are "professional" outfits?

zg3409

Premier wrote: »

I did have to look twice thought i was seeing things

I had to look 3 times to see what the big problem was!!! I just thought the rusty pole and the cable without restraint was the problem.

In case others miss it ..... Look at the LNB ..... now look again.

Are we sure the guy did not have a go himself, then gave up and blamed someone else? Was the dish brand new? Looks like a dish was removed from another house and the guy had a go himself

It couldn't be a new Sky install... could it?

ISAA

This picture is easily explained, the signal is been bounced from the satellite to the house and back again to the LNB pointing at the house.

NewHillel

ISAA wrote: »

This picture is easily explained, the signal is been bounced from the satellite to the house and back again to the LNB pointing at the house.

Na, that won't work.

Its an uplink, for local content.

It is simply the funniest picture I have seen in years.

Sponge Bob

God Bless the Sky Installer...shortly to try his 'hand' at Soreview as they call it.

Booms

You should send that into Bill Wright's Rogues' Gallery it's in a class of its own.

Cantona's Collars

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Ahhhhh, my favourite. Sky Installers.

First 2 pics from Scaller don't look like a recent Sky install,the dish looks new but that lnb is ancient.More like a bodged FTA install using bits found in the back of a van.

Still doesn't excuse what was done,if I caught someone trying to do that at my house I'd run 'em.

Must try and get a pic of the install up the road from me where the installer clamped two bars together with u-bolts to keep the dish out from the wall to 'see' the satellite rather than simply install the dish a few feet nearer the front of the gable.I don't know how it has lasted so long.

The one with the backward lnb can't beat the moron in Gorey who couldn't get a signal at the front of the house he was attempting to do an install at,despite the fact all the other dishes were on the front of the other houses he decided that he'd probably get a better signal at the back.Help was offered but he declined saying he knew what he was doing as he was a professional and had "done a bit of this stuff before"

FRIENDO

cast_iron wrote: »

Shameful installs. Look like DIY jobs. Are we sure they are "professional" outfits?

I think the majority of DIY people I know take pride in the job's they do at home, it may take them along time to get the work right but they generally do a good job.

I also believe the jobs carried out in the above pictures are carried out by people who call themselves installers (they are not good installers) they are rogues.

St Senan

Installs from qualified installers let loose on the public after a crash course training fitting Dishes and Aerials.

ISAA

scaller wrote: »

Installs from qualified installers let loose on the public after a crash course training fitting Dishes and Aerials.

But I thought the dish GROWS with the tree, so you end up with a larger dish for more signal