This type of Installer will destroy the Aerial business

Cantona's Collars

NewHillel wrote: »

(To be clear, I am not recommending that anyone drill a chimney. If done incorrectly, or on an unsuitable structure, it could cause serious structural damage.)

This post contradicts what you just said. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78039761&postcount=181

There are no vested interests here,just experienced installers/riggers who are trying to do the right thing but are being undercut and having their profession tainted by chancers who see the saorview digital switchover as a cash cow.
When ASO is complete and the rush dies down,these guys will move onto the next thing they can make a quick buck at and leave an unholy mess behind as aerials fall off walls & chimneys,generic boxes lose channels and people realise they have been sold a pig in a poke.But of course the guy with a flyer in a shop won't be around to fix it and the "12 month guarantee" that was offered lasted the length it took him to drive out the gate.

Cesium Clock

NewHillel wrote: »

I am not an Architect or Civil Engineer so I'm not in a position to specify what constitutes 'best practice', in attaching fitments to structures.

exactly my point

Cantona's Collars

cast_iron wrote: »

How so, Tony?

The weight of the aerial can cause the bar holding it to slip down,I think Scaller posted a pic of this having happened to a dish install,the dish was left hanging upside down.

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

How so, Tony?

Gravity and leverage

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

Gravity and leverage

Ah, I see where you are coming from now.
I'd agree on the principle, but can't see it making much of a difference on a correctly installed (besides) sky dish bracket.

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

Ah, I see where you are coming from now.
I'd agree on the principle, but can't see it making much of a difference on a correctly installed (besides) sky dish bracket.

Over time it definitely does make a difference from my experience and its no big deal to fit the bracket facing down so why not do it that way

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

Over time it definitely does make a difference from my experience and its no big deal to fit the bracket facing down so why not do it that way

I've seen it too, but by then, it's usually time for a new bracket anyway. Point taken though.
Also, the quality of brackets these days isn't what it used to be, which would reinforce your argument.
I had one of the original dishes on my own house (over 10 years ago I think), and the bracket lasted longer than a second one I put up about 5 years later. I only replaced the older one a few months ago as the bracket finally gave up the ghost (the dish still perfect!).

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

Also, the quality of brackets these days isn't what it used to be, which would reinforce your argument.

Yes I agree the amount of metal used is definitely less but like everything these days made to a price I guess.

NewHillel

cast_iron wrote: »

However, I'd say it's fair game to point out bad practice (which is what people are doing here).

The difficulty, in the absence of regulation, is agreeing what constitutes 'bad' and indeed 'good' practice. Some of the criticisms levied against the installation being discussed, include:

1. Use of 'Sky' Bracket.
It is entirely irrelevant as to what the intended purpose of the bracket was. No evidence was provided that it is unfit for purpose for supporting a (small) aerial.

2. "the sky bracket is upside down, water will settle at the bend, rust then failure. water will run thru the bracket and stain the chimney on exit."
This is not true, due to the design of the bracket.

3. " Its also more stable when mounted facing down."
A stability improvement, if any, is marginal. I would argue that, for a bracket mounted on a chimney, the priority is to keep the bracket as far as possible towards the bottom of the chimney. This is facilitated by the orientation of the bracket, as installed.

4. "it would have made more sense to mount that in the attic less than 2 feet below it."
No evidence, to support that position, has been provided.

The main concern, in my view, is the mounting of the bracket on the chimney.
There is a broad consensus that this is a legitimate cause for concern. The issues then are:

1. Is this always bad practice.

2. If not, is it bad practice in the instance referred to.

3. In the circumstances where it is bad practice is it reasonable to assume that a reasonably competent installer should be aware of this.

My opinion is:

1. In the absence of regulatory guidelines, this cannot be stated with certainty. However, in the absence of such guidelines there is a onus on the installer to ensure that individual installations are safe. (There are very few chimneys that I would drill, under any circumstances.)

It is even muddier than this.
[URL="[url]http://books.google.ie/books?id=FBCfvmolEfkC&pg=PA130&dq=satellite+dish+chimney+fixings&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JW6ET_i4CcOHhQfxs-muCA&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=satellite dish chimney fixings&f=false[/url]"]This reference[/URL], purely as an example, refers to direct mounts on a chimney-breast.

Let me quote from 'Satworld.ie' - a company frequently recommended by the OP:

"USES of Sky dish / Aerial wall bracket
Normally used on a gable wall or chimney to mount:
Single UHF Grid or UHF contract Aerials
a broadband aerial
Satellite dises up to 60cm
Perfect for Sky / Freesat Dishes

ADVANTAGES Sky dish / Aerial wall bracket
Small compact bracket ideal mounting a UHF aerial or satellite dish
Lowest cost way of mounting a bracket
Wall is reversible - can be used to maximise height or reach
Easier and quicker to mount than a  Chimney bracket
Versatile can be mounted on a chimney or gable wall
Comes as a complete kit with excepiton of Coach bolts"

2. It is impossible to know whether the installation referred to is inherently bad practice.
We do not know the materials that the chimney is constructed with, the mountings used, or how these were selected and sited.


3. The OP [URL="[url]http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76797539&postcount=6[/url]"]previously recommended[/URL] [URL="[url]http://satworld.ie/product-info.php?350mm_Heavy_Duty_Steel_Wall_Mount-pid260.html[/url]"]this product[/URL]
As an experienced rigger, he raised no concern about this description:

"Normally used on a wall or chimney to mount:
Satellite Dishes Aerials or antennas"

Was there not a need to tackle the issue of a supplier propagating incorrect information, if indeed this is actually the case, rather than looking at an individual installer? Given that a very experienced aerial rigger saw no reason to raise a concern, is it reasonable to expect a less experienced, though potentially still competent, installer, to be concerned?

Digitaltv

I found this from a UK aerial company :
Wall or Chimney Bracket ?

The crucial difference between a wall bracket and a chimney bracket is that the former is screwed to the wall whereas the latter is lashed to it, in fact they are sometimes referred to as lashing brackets. It is vital that this difference is appreciated because the main reason that anything bolted to a wall has any strength is the bulk of the brickwork above (and around) those to which it is actually screwed. Unless a chimney is of large proportions it is unlikely that there will be sufficient bulk/weight in it for a screwed fixing to be adequate. The answer is to use a lashing wire to tightly hold the bracket onto the corner of the chimney. For the same reason mentioned above, there should be a few courses of brick left above the installation. J-bolts are used to provide the required tension.

aidan_walsh

NewHillel banned for one week for continuing to post regarding other members despite earlier general requests and warnings to stop.

byte

On the subject of the Sky dish bracketry, I agree that it should never point up the way.

Mostly because of leverage, especially over time as the rubbish metals weaken/rot, but also, the inside of the tubing doesn't seem to be treated with paint either.

I have quite often replaced dishes whereby the L-bar pointed upwards, and after years, the dish rots away at the bend.

Aside from all that, it'd have been handier, IMO, for the installer to just use a lashing and cradle kit for both dish and aerial, at one side of chimney, regardless of all else.

Cesium Clock

byte wrote: »

On the subject of the Sky dish bracketry, I agree that it should never point up the way.

Mostly because of leverage, especially over time as the rubbish metals weaken/rot, but also, the inside of the tubing doesn't seem to be treated with paint either.

I have quite often replaced dishes whereby the L-bar pointed upwards, and after years, the dish rots away at the bend.

Aside from all that, it'd have been handier, IMO, for the installer to just use a lashing and cradle kit for both dish and aerial, at one side of chimney, regardless of all else.

spot on, problems that most of us who do this day in and day out experience.

Extinction

Sky's code of practice regarding the installation of these brackets says they should always be faced down, this is because as already stated there is a risk of rust damage to the pole from rain water. I think sky's own code regarding the use of their brackets should be enough of a reason to install them as recommended. We have all seen brackets that have been installed incorrectly rust away to nothing and experience alone tells us how to install them. The amount of damage that can be done by incorrectly installing a lashing kit is something else we have all seen, chunks of brick missing from corners of chimneys etc, it is us that see these things day in day out and I think it is correct in a public forum to discuss these things so customers are aware that the cheapest job can often be the costliest in the end.

cast_iron

byte wrote: »

Aside from all that, it'd have been handier, IMO, for the installer to just use a lashing and cradle kit for both dish and aerial, at one side of chimney, regardless of all else.

Well we don't know the circumstances of the install. Perhaps the dish was already there and the lashing isn't in great nick. Then the installer would be best advised avoid the lashing and do his own thing. But your way would certainly have been a neater job too.
Personally, I'd run anyone that did that on my house. Sadly, the average joe soap knows no better and worse still, doesn't seem to care.

lawhec

WRT the pole on Sky minidish installiations, the one at my parents house was installed approx 12 years ago with the pole pointing upwards and it's still fine but yes I do think about rainwater getting in through the exposed top of it. Kind of fortunate/lucky in this case I guess.

MiCr0

STB banned for a week

Iderown

You often see two (three..) yagis mounted on match-stick thin masts. Lashing kits placed close to the bottom of chimneys and with mast clamps of such a small size that the mast easily hammers against the coping of the chimney.
Warning about using expansion type bolts in brickwork within 5 or 6 courses of the top. These bolts can expand with tremendous force and cause brick courses above them to "lift" - permanent structural damage.
End of rant.

Booms

Very relevant (and impressive) pictures in this google groups thread:
google goups tech tv

see the link on the first post:eek:

Cantona's Collars

I see one Irish man has made the CAI Rogue Traders List.

http://www.cai.org.uk/about-the-cai/cai-rogue-traders

St Senan

Here is Another wideband mounted on an upside down Sky dish wall bracket, This time he (the same guy from the last picture I put up) took down a perfectly good cradle, lashing kit and pole to drill into the chimney.
Originally there was a VHF combined with a Group A UHF on that house so there was probably no need to have a new Aerial fitted at all. But unfortunately this poor customer wouldn't know that and wasn't going to be told by someone who has jumped on the Saorview bandwagon out to make a quick killing.

kbell

..and installed a new 'digital aerial' instead.

Extinction

kbell wrote: »

..and installed a new 'digital aerial' instead.

On a new Digital bracket

Extinction

How long before this aerial and dish topple?

Digitaltv

Extinction wrote: »

How long before this aerial and dish topple?

I would say the storms this week

St Senan

Extinction wrote: »

How long before this aerial and dish topple? https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/533398/200922.jpg

Jaysus that is shocking how could any guy call himself a Digital tv Installer after sticking up that eyesore. The LNB is even the wrong type for that dish.

Extinction

A cracker of an idea to improve signal :rolleyes:

snaps

Extinction wrote: »

A cracker of an idea to improve signal :rolleyes:

Poor bugger has left his hammer there too!

Extinction

snaps wrote: »

Poor bugger has left his hammer there too!

Might be best if he left all his tools and the keys to his van there.

St Senan

Extinction wrote: »

A cracker of an idea to improve signal :rolleyes:

That has to be 1 of the worst eyesores that I have ever seen.

Ronnie Raygun

scaller wrote: »

That has to be 1 of the worst eyesores that I have ever seen.

And from ground level you wouldn't see (or care) about it at all.

Are these genuine pics taken by those who post them? Are they even in this country?

Digitaltv

Extinction wrote: »

A cracker of an idea to improve signal :rolleyes:

Two digital aerials and two digital wall mounts, must have been done by the GDS.

Extinction

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

And from ground level you wouldn't see (or care) about it at all.

Are these genuine pics taken by those who post them? Are they even in this country?

Unfortunately they are genuine and they are in this country, the installer who did both of these (who I wont name) is a member of one of the trade bodies, he has the trade body logo displayed on his van and seperate Saorview logos, on his facebook page he describes himself as 'Lead installer at Saorview'!!

MiCr0

Extinction banned for a week for ignoring mod instructions

Digitaltv

MiCr0 wrote: »

Extinction banned for a week for ignoring mod instructions

Who Bans the mods ? They sound like gods, since this is happening so much now, why bother with topic at all, you can't say boo without been banned, sure I'm next.

MiCr0

Anything relating to Terrestrial TV can be discussed in this forum, and this specific thread is about poor fitting of equipment.
This forum, or any on boards.ie, is not about discussing other users.

Any post can be reported on, there is a little stop sign under each users post.
If you have a problem with some content, use the report feature.

The reason users were banned here is because they continued to discuss other users and post off topic even after my explicit warning that people would get banned if they did.
Any user can get banned, regardless of whether or not they are a mod.
Also, I banned the 2 users in this thread, not the forum mods.

Hope this clears things up.
MiCr0

Digitaltv

Are we allowed to discuss Associations, groups etc, as these are not single people.

And if not why.

MiCr0

I'll let the forum mods answer that one.

B bopp

Digitaltv wrote: »

MiCr0 wrote: »

Extinction banned for a week for ignoring mod instructions

Who Bans the mods ? They sound like gods, since this is happening so much now, why bother with topic at all, you can't say boo without been banned, sure I'm next.

Seems to be true... some people get banned for nothing yet others can post photos and say where they are trading from without any bans being issued. who mods the mods

MiCr0

B bopp wrote: »

Digitaltv wrote: »

MiCr0 wrote: »

Extinction banned for a week for ignoring mod instructions

Who Bans the mods ? They sound like gods, since this is happening so much now, why bother with topic at all, you can't say boo without been banned, sure I'm next.

Seems to be true... some people get banned for nothing yet others can post photos and say where they are trading from without any bans being issued. who mods the mods

I just don't get this, do you have an issue with comments made by one of the mods?
I get all the reported posts, and I can't remember seeing any reports from either of you?
The users were banned for a week for off topic comments after a very specific warning.
Was this not clear enough?

Digitaltv

why is it that the thread is call THIS TYPE OF INSTALLER WILL DESTROY THE AERIAL BUSINESS and people post pictures of poor quality workmanship, and you ban them ?
Is this not an open forum ? to discuss the above topic, and the bad quality installs ?

I don't see any names been mentioned, or where they?

B bopp

My point is that the thread seems to be a pedestal for certain people to slag off competition that they have in their area (I'm not commenting on the quality of the installs, in most cases the installs are of a poor quality) but if others mention anything remotely directed at the thread they get banned...ie. popcorn anyone

MiCr0

Digitaltv wrote: »

why is it that the thread is call THIS TYPE OF INSTALLER WILL DESTROY THE AERIAL BUSINESS and people post pictures of poor quality workmanship, and you ban them ?
Is this not an open forum ? to discuss the above topic, and the bad quality installs ?

I don't see any names been mentioned, or where they?

Nobody was banned for posting pictures of poor workmanship.
As I keep saying, people are banned for off topic posts and attacking other users.

MiCr0

excollier banned for a week

MiCr0

As i said before, any off topic chat is going to result in a week ban.

If you have an issue with the forum, take it too the feedback forum and get it discussed properly.

We've had constant threads here getting dragged off topic and becoming derailed due to comments about the other users.

I've had enough of it and clearly the other users of the forum have too.

Digitaltv is banned for a week too for the OT post.

B bopp

MiCr0 wrote: »

As i said before, any off topic chat is going to result in a week ban.

If you have an issue with the forum, take it too the feedback forum and get it discussed properly.

We've had constant threads here getting dragged off topic and becoming derailed due to comments about the other users.

I've had enough of it and clearly the other users of the forum have too.

Digitaltv is banned for a week too for the OT post.

So please for clarity could you define exactly the posts that warranted excollier and digitaltv to be banned

MiCr0

The posts were off topic to the this thread which specifically about the quality of aerial installations.
Both were a smart-ass comments.

B bopp

MiCr0 wrote: »

The posts were off topic to the this thread which specifically about the quality of aerial installations.
Both were a smart-ass comments.

again i ask which ones... there were other posts which were far more directed at individuals and escaped bans. ones that clearly identified businesses and yet nothing said.

MiCr0

This is the only time i'm going to say this.

If you have an issue with how this forum is being moderated, please start a thread in the feedback forum.
NOT in this thread.
I had previously thought that I had this warning already in place in this thread, but it was actually in another thread in this forum.
I'd banned B Bopp because of this, but this has now been removed.

I'd encourage all users who have an opinion on this forum to start a discussion in feedback.

Clearly the community here has very strong thoughts on what is a way of receiving TV for some, and a business for others.

But this forum and specifically this thread isn't the place to do this.

icdg

Okay, take it to the Admins if you have problems with the Mods here. Otherwise more bans will be handed out.

If anything, we are too lenient. This will not be the case going forward.

Re trade associations, we'll get back to this shortly...