Homeopathy for Dogs

RhodeIslandRed

Does anyone have any experience of going the homeopathy route? My dog has atopic dematitis and after nine months of vet visits, six months of very expensive medicine that didn't really help at all, I'm looking into other options.

Outkast_IRE

What are you currently feeding the dog , there are established links between dermatitis and food ?

boomerang

There is an association of homeopathic vets in Ireland. My own vet is a member. Maybe let us know where you're based, and someone might be able to recommend a homeopath close to you?

Edited to add: My (homeopathic) vet is Erica Borge at Ceithre Cos Veterinary Surgeons in Tulla, Co. Clare. She is excellent. Whether or not you want to go down the homeopathic route, I'd still recommend Erica for a second opinion.

RhodeIslandRed

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

What are you currently feeding the dog , there are established links between dermatitis and food ?

I feed her an organic dry dog food. Vet is fairly sure that it's an allergy to dust mites, I think he said that the areas of her body that are affected strongly suggest it is dust mites. I am going to change her food next month though just in case.

RhodeIslandRed

boomerang wrote: »

There is an association of homeopathic vets in Ireland. My own vet is a member. Maybe let us know where you're based, and someone might be able to recommend a homeopath close to you?

Edited to add: My (homeopathic) vet is Erica Borge at Ceithre Cos Veterinary Surgeons in Tulla, Co. Clare. She is excellent. Whether or not you want to go down the homeopathic route, I'd still recommend Erica for a second opinion.

That's a coincidence because that is the vet I intend going to! I'm in Limerick and a friend recommended her.

Outkast_IRE

RhodeIslandRed wrote: »

I feed her an organic dry dog food. Vet is fairly sure that it's an allergy to dust mites, I think he said that the areas of her body that are affected strongly suggest it is dust mites. I am going to change her food next month though just in case.

Fair enought the food is organic but is there any grains in it ?

boomerang

Good for you, OP! I think you'll find the consult with Erica really worthwhile.

My sympathies to you with your poor doggy, it sounds like this condition has been an ordeal for both of you. I hope your dog finds some relief.

DBB

I have a lot of experience dealing with atopy so hope this post helps! Whilst food does influence it, the effect it has on skin tends to be indirect. It's the storage mites that live in dry commercial foods, all dry commercial food, even "top quality" dry food, which are top of the list to cause an allergic reaction, causing atopy.
So, you feed the best dry food money can buy. Dog develops atopy, in reaction to the storage mites. Dog is treated with steroids and/or immunosuppressants, atopy subsides. Treatment stops, dog continues eating food containing mites, atopy comes back, and the dog is back on treatment again. So you can see, a never ending cycle is set up.
If your dog does indeed have an allergy to storage mites, there is only one way to avoid the mites, and that's to get your dog off dry food. A fresh home made diet, or a commercial prepared fresh diet, is the order of the day. Omega 3 and vitamin e abound in fresh food, especially fish, and are seriously lacking in dry food, but these nutrients are critical for skin health and balancing the immune response. As atopy is a problem with immunity, it is critical to address it at this level too, so that your dog has a better chance of naturally fighting the allergens causing the atopy.
Is the dog a susceptible breed? Westie, cairn, or staffie, maybe? :-)

I have also heard good reports of the homeopathic vet in tulla. However, I know a fair few people who have tried homeopathic approach with atopy, without success. The diet is the thing!

sensibleken

How would homeopathy work on a dog. They have no knowledge of the placebo effect.

Cú Giobach

RhodeIslandRed wrote: »

Does anyone have any experience of going the homeopathy route? My dog has atopic dematitis and after nine months of vet visits, six months of very expensive medicine that didn't really help at all, I'm looking into other options.

Anyone considering Homoeopathy for their pet should do a bit of research about what it actually is, Wicki is a good place to start, the words that spring to mind are "snake oil" and "quackery".
Just remember the fella who invented it pulled the idea off the top of his head.
Our pets deserve better than "Voodoo", "Healing Crystals" or "Homoeopathy".

Millem

RhodeIslandRed wrote: »

Does anyone have any experience of going the homeopathy route? My dog has atopic dematitis and after nine months of vet visits, six months of very expensive medicine that didn't really help at all, I'm looking into other options.

I don't have any experience with homeopathy, but I am in the same boat as you! We have tried steroids, atopica, and now back on steroids (one every 2nd day)! Did your vet ever mention the vaccine thing they can make up for your dog?

seamus

Atopic dermatitis is the fastest-growing chronic condition in dogs at the moment, most likely due in part to excessive breeding but also due to the increasingly sterile environments that our pets now share with us.

Whereas dogs would typically have lived in kennels or other "dirty" places, they are increasingly sharing our living space (beds and sofas), which we keep excessively clean. This means that dogs do not get exposed to allergens like dust and pollen at a young age and therefore do not develop a natural tolerance for them. It's the same reason why allergies in humans are also on the rise.

The dermatitis is typically caused by one of three factors:

1. Pathogens - viruses, bacteria or fleas on the skin. Easily treated and managed
2. Dietary - Allergies to things like wheat/gluten, sugar or other foodstuffs not typical in a canine diet. Relatively easy to manage.
3. Environmental - Allergies to things like pollen, dust, dust mites, washing powder, etc.

Environmental allergies are massively growing and are very difficult to control. You should aim to rule out pathogens and dietary allergies first - have the dog de-flea'd/de-wormed/de-manged, etc. Spray your home for dust mites and fleas, and hoover at least once a week, if not more. If this doesn't help, switch to a hypoallergenic or raw meat diet.

If that doesn't help, then you're left with environmental factors. These can be determined by trial-and-error, keeping a diary etc, but it can be very hard to nail down. There are blood tests available to determine what your dog is allergic to, and to what extent. Nobody in Ireland does the tests, but most vets will take the sample and send it off to the UK.

From these tests they can derive a treatment regime which basically involves flooding the dog's system with the allergens in increasing amounts so the dog's immune system eventually gets used to it. A bit like putting your hand in water and increasing the temperature slowly so you adjust to it without flinching.

These are expensive though, and may have unsatisfactory results. As a rough rule the outcome for these test is one-third: 33% of dogs are completely cured, 33% show some improvement, 33% show no improvement.

Hope that helps.

Homeopathy has no scientific basis and is as good at curing illnesses as doing nothing.

boomerang

Does homeopathy work on animals?

In my direct experience, yes. It doesn't tend to help in cases of acute illness or a serious illness that has progressed, such as cancer. But I have seen brilliant results with animals that have chronic conditions - and where conventional veterinary medicine has failed. My own vet uses homeopathy alongside conventional treatments and a "fresh is best" approach to diet.

It's very easy to dismiss homeopathy as quackery. I was only convinced of its value by working alongside my vet in daily practice. I would certainly consider it for my own pets. It costs little, it does no harm, and it can work. The problem with homeopathy is that the results are not predictable as they don't act upon each animal in a consistent way.

5uspect

boomerang wrote: »

It's very easy to dismiss homeopathy as quackery. I was only convinced of its value by working alongside my vet in daily practice. I would certainly consider it for my own pets. It costs little, it does no harm, and it can work. The problem with homeopathy is that the results are not predictable as they don't act upon each animal in a consistent way.

Yes it is easy to dismiss because it is the very definition of quackery. It performs no better than placebo.
What's the harm?

sensibleken

boomerang wrote: »

Does homeopathy work on animals?

In my direct experience, yes. It doesn't tend to help in cases of acute illness or a serious illness that has progressed, such as cancer. But I have seen brilliant results with animals that have chronic conditions - and where conventional veterinary medicine has failed. My own vet uses homeopathy alongside conventional treatments and a "fresh is best" approach to diet.

It's very easy to dismiss homeopathy as quackery. I was only convinced of its value by working alongside my vet in daily practice. I would certainly consider it for my own pets. It costs little, it does no harm, and it can work. The problem with homeopathy is that the results are not predictable as they don't act upon each animal in a consistent way.

Its easy because you can just cite every study thats ever been done on it. And while people are wasting time and money on giving their pets sugar and water they could be getting an awful lot worse due to lack of actual treatment

boomerang

There are a lot of unqualified people out there selling themselves as homeopaths, encouraging people to quit their medications and giving advice without any professional training. No wonder the treatment is so often futile.

On the other hand, my vet is a doctor of veterinary medicine and has a MSc. I already mentioned that she uses homeopathy in conjunction with conventional treatment.

Somewhat different scenario, no?

I accept the argument that you could attribute a cure to homeopathy when the disease would probably have resolved on its own anyways - but I've seen good results achieved in enough chronic skin conditions to convince me it may have some value. A homeopathic vet tends to be the consult of last resort, when all other treatment approaches have failed. At that point, even if results aren't guaranteed, I reckon it's worth a shot.

sensibleken

boomerang wrote: »

There are a lot of unqualified people out there selling themselves as homeopaths, encouraging people to quit their medications and giving medical advice without any professional training.

On the other hand, my vet is a doctor of veterinary medicine and has a MSc, using homeopathy in conjunction with conventional treatment, and at no extra cost.

Somewhat different scenario, no?

I accept the argument that you could attribute a cure to homeopathy when the disease would probably have resolved on its own anyways - but I've seen good results achieved in enough chronic conditions to convince me it does have some value. A homeopathic vet tends to be the consult of last resort, when all other treatment approaches have failed. At that point, even if results aren't guaranteed, I'd still be giving it a shot.

Do you know what homeopathy actually is though? Just have a read of it here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

If a vet is using this, even qualified, you need to see another Vet. If they used it in conjunction with conventional medicine then it was the conventional medicine the worked

5uspect

boomerang wrote: »

There are a lot of unqualified people out there selling themselves as homeopaths, encouraging people to quit their medications and giving medical advice without any professional training.

On the other hand, my vet is a doctor of veterinary medicine and has a MSc, using homeopathy in conjunction with conventional treatment, and at no extra cost.

Somewhat different scenario, no?

That's an argument from authority and is a basic logical fallacy. Just because your vet is a qualified vet doesn't make her entitled to ignore the vast amounts of evidence that show that homeopathy is nonsense.

I accept the argument that you could attribute a cure to homeopathy when the disease would probably have resolved on its own anyways - but I've seen good results achieved in enough chronic conditions to convince me it does have some value. A homeopathic vet tends to be the consult of last resort, when all other treatment approaches have failed. At that point, even if results aren't guaranteed, I'd still be giving it a shot.

Anecdote is not the same thing as evidence. Double blind clinical trials are the only way to test these kinds of claims and eliminate sources of bias. As a participant in these treatments you are biased to the outcome. Your testimony is a classic example of confirmation bias.

boomerang

Have any of you ever actually brought one of your pets for a consult with a homeopathic vet?

Look, I'm not going to spend the rest of my night defending homeopathy. I have a pretty skeptical view of alternative medicine. I'm just sharing my own direct experience - something that the naysayers don't seem to have had themselves.

Very smart people dismiss homeopathy. It makes us look clever to deride it. But you know what? Of all my friends and family, my vet is probably the smartest person I know.

It's so, so easy to dismiss it - not so easy when you see some results. Why has it persisted as an area of study for so long? (I can hear you all forming a queue to give me a smart answer to that one!)

As in all things, keep an open mind.

sensibleken

boomerang wrote: »

Have any of you ever actually brought one of your pets for a consult with a homeopathic vet?

Look, I'm not going to spend the rest of my night defending homeopathy. I have a pretty skeptical view of alternative medicine. I'm just sharing my own direct experience - something that the naysayers don't seem to have had themselves.

Very smart people dismiss homeopathy. It makes us look clever to deride it. But you know what? Of all my friends and family, my vet is probably the smartest person I know.

It's so, so easy to dismiss it - not so easy when you see some results. Why has it persisted as an area of study for so long? (I can hear you all forming a queue to give me a smart answer to that one!)

As in all things, keep an open mind.

As Tim Minchin says: if you open your mind too much your brain falls out.

If you keep an open mind against all, and i mean all, evidence, its just...i cant think of a polite word

fatmammycat

Dismissing homeopathy has nothing to do with being smart or not smart, it's to do whether there is empirical evidence that shows that it works, and no such evidence exists. The notion that something diluted down to an undetectable degree can be used to combat serious sickness is unsupportable in science, the notion that water has 'memory' is equally unsupported. That's why it's dismissed. The science dismisses it.
The reason it's been around so long for study is the same reason gods have been around so long; folk need to cling to the unsupported– despite evidence to the contrary– for some odd reason.

5uspect

Sigh, you're falling for so many of the usual arguments.

Have any of you ever actually brought one of your pets for a consult with a homeopathic vet?

Look, I'm not going to spend the rest of my night defending homeopathy. I have a pretty skeptical view of alternative medicine. I'm just sharing my own direct experience - something that the naysayers don't seem to have had themselves.

Argument from personal experience. As above you can't trust your personal experience because this is a biased reporter. I'm sorry to say your personal experience is untrustworthy, as would be mine. Hence I cannot let my personal experience determine my views on homeopathy. That's why double blind trials are used.

Very smart people dismiss homeopathy. It makes us look clever to deride it. But you know what? Of all my friends and family, my vet is probably the smartest person I know.

Appeal to authority, again, but contradicted by an ad hominem against intelligent people...

It's so, so easy to dismiss it - not so easy when you see some results. Why has it persisted as an area of study for so long? (I can hear you all forming a queue to give me a smart answer to that one!)

It's not an area of study. It is simply diluting the poison beyond statistical significance and drinking the result. That's it, that's all it's ever been.

It seems people have to learn to think critically, it doesn't come naturally. Often they have a simple view of the world and would rather seen a simple solution to complex problems like health.

I'm not posting here to give smart arsed answers. I sincerely believe that alternatives to medicine like homeopathy are a real danger and their use should be challenged with he full rigor we reserve for actual medicine.

As in all things, keep an open mind.

This is an awful thing to say and is highly dismissive. There is no evidence to support the claims of Homeopaths! That is the broad open minded interpretation of the data. To ignore all of that evidence is closed minded.

boomerang

It seems people have to learn to think critically, it doesn't come naturally.

I'm done contributing to the thread but ah now, that's just below the belt. I'll have you know I was educated at Trinity, UCC and NUIG, thank you very much. I'm clever enough to appreciate my own level of intelligence, but also modest enough to appreciate there are people in my life much smarter than I.

Yes, homeopathy is potentially dangerous, when sold by chancers and used in preference to conventional medicines. But as practised by my vet, it certainly does no harm.

Will follow the rest of the discussion with interest.

5uspect

I didn't mean you, I mean people in general. You asked why homeopathy has prevailed and that was part of my answer.

People talk about a cure for cancer as if someday you can take a pill and it will go away when in fact it's a complicated range of problems with vastly different causes and treatments. Snake oil merchants would have you think their magic potion cures all and this appeals to our desire for a simple uncomplicated world.

Cú Giobach

boomerang wrote: »

Does homeopathy work on animals?

In my direct experience, yes. It doesn't tend to help in cases of acute illness or a serious illness that has progressed, such as cancer. But I have seen brilliant results with animals that have chronic conditions - and where conventional veterinary medicine has failed. My own vet uses homeopathy alongside conventional treatments and a "fresh is best" approach to diet.

How can you say it was the Homoeopathic treatment (water) that had an effect when used alongside conventional treatment and dietary changes, this is like someone taking a homoeopathic remedy (water) and an aspirin for a headache and claiming that it was the homoeopathic remedy (water) that got rid of the pain, ie utter nonsense.

It's very easy to dismiss homeopathy as quackery.

Very true, because it is.

I was only convinced of its value by working alongside my vet in daily practice. I would certainly consider it for my own pets. It costs little, it does no harm, and it can work. The problem with homeopathy is that the results are not predictable as they don't act upon each animal in a consistent way.

Of course every animal will show different results/changes after being given a homoeopathic remedy (water) because it has no effect whatsoever, and each animals symptoms/illness will progress differently depending on the animal.
The only thing homoeopathy is any good for is preventing dehydration if given in nice large doses.

RhodeIslandRed

Thanks all for your replies. It is obviously a controversial subject. However without wanting to sound too flippant, you could question what is quakery when my dog's €600 a year conventional medicine is not working but I don't think the company that make it will be giving me a refund any time soon!

The other point I would make is that we are not always sure why things work. Herbs were used to treat conditions for hundereds of years and indeed many plants are the basis for many medicines. However trials have only been done on them relatively recently. People were aware that they worked, they just didn't know why.

At the end of the day, I will only do what is in the best interests of my dog and since I have gone down the conventional route for the past nine months without success I am ready to explore other options.

Cú Giobach

RhodeIslandRed wrote: »

The other point I would make is that we are not always sure why things work. Herbs were used to treat conditions for hundereds of years and indeed many plants are the basis for many medicines. However trials have only been done on them relatively recently. People were aware that they worked, they just didn't know why.

The difference between using herbs to treat various conditions and homoeopathy is that herbs contain substances that have physiological and metabolic effects on living animals/plants and homoeopathic remedies are just ordinary everyday water.
It has been shown over and over again by very reliable studies, that homoeopathy doesn't work, except by the placebo effect.

5uspect

RhodeIslandRed wrote: »

Thanks all for your replies. It is obviously a controversial subject. However without wanting to sound too flippant, you could question what is quakery when my dog's €600 a year conventional medicine is not working but I don't think the company that make it will be giving me a refund any time soon!

The other point I would make is that we are not always sure why things work. Herbs were used to treat conditions for hundereds of years and indeed many plants are the basis for many medicines. However trials have only been done on them relatively recently. People were aware that they worked, they just didn't know why.

At the end of the day, I will only do what is in the best interests of my dog and since I have gone down the conventional route for the past nine months without success I am ready to explore other options.

It's not a controversial subject. It's an established fact that homeopathy is nonsense and that the world is round. It's only a controversy in the eyes of those who would wish to promote it.

Herbs and other plants contain active ingredients with real effects (and side effects), homeopathic remedies by definition do not, in fact cannot. They perform no better than placebo. There is nothing in a homeopathic remedy except water. Nothing! Trials have been done, meta analyses of the trials have been done and there is no reliable evidence that it works better than placebo. This is a close to a fact as you can get but I feel that I have to keep repeating it regardless.

As with boomerang you're also falling for a logical fallacy, in this case an appeal to antiquity, just because we've done something for a long time doesn't make it worthwhile. I'm sorry to hear that your dog's treatment isn't having a good outcome but I would encourage you to follow an evidence based approach to your and your pet's welfare.

seamus

RhodeIslandRed wrote: »

The other point I would make is that we are not always sure why things work. Herbs were used to treat conditions for hundereds of years and indeed many plants are the basis for many medicines. However trials have only been done on them relatively recently. People were aware that they worked, they just didn't know why.

That's fine. In fact I have no problem with people eating basil or echinacea or whatever they feel like in order to try cure themselves of something. It may not work, but it's not entirely off the wall to consider that your body will benefit from consuming something.

The problem with homeopathy is not that people are skeptical that the "herb" doesn't work, the problem with homeopathy is that there is no herb. The basis behind preparing an homeopathic solution means that it's just water. When someone gives you an homeopathic vial containing "phosphorus" for example, it's a vial of water. It may have been prepared in a specific way, it may have been through the full homeopathic rigours, but those rigours mean that the vial contains water, and nothing else.

It's a bit like filling a saucepan with water, heating it until all of the water has boiled away, then handing someone an empty dry saucepan and claiming that it contains water which you can drink.

Skin conditions in dogs are a long-term problem in many cases. Nine months is not a long time to have been investigating it, and the expense can be dependent on what vet you get. We've gone to a vet who's sold us €150 worth of treatments that another vet 6 weeks later told us was never going to work and the other vet should have known that.

Please read my post from yesterday evening and work to determine the root cause of the problem. It doesn't have to be expensive - most of the investigation is done by you. Feeding your dog expensive water will not help.

What has helped us at least lessen the itching are:

1. Brushing with a medium stiff-bristled brush on a daily basis. This removes loose/dead skin and stimulates the sebaceous glands to produce natural oils which can ease the itching.

2. Washing on a semi-regular basis with a medicated shampoo. We have been given both Malaseb and Allermyl from our vet. Washing her every two weeks or so really seems to help. These are relatively expensive shampoos and prescription-only, but the bottles do last a few months. They are ones that you have to leave in for a few minutes before rinsing and re-washing. Our dog hates baths, so it's a bit of a pain, but worth it.

3. Swimming in the sea. Our dog's most severe allergies come from grass and tree pollen so the beach has none of these. The salt water also is brilliant for easing her skin in the same way that it can help similar itching in humans.

fatmammycat

It took over two years for my friend to get her basset's itching under control, mostly through trial and error. Turns out he was allergic to dust mites and had to take an antihistamine tablet every morning for the rest of his life, he had no more problems thereafter, tablets cost- 7.20 a month.
By the way, as the others have said, there is no use of herbs in homeopathy, it's water. Do what you think is correct for your dog, but be aware some problems take a lot longer to solve and unfortunately diagnosing an allergy is one of them.

JCabot

We have 2 dogs and 4 cats and use a homeopathic vet also after years of throwing money at the conventional vets and drug companies. It worked for all our animals so theres no way to explain it away as placebo.

80% of the population believe in some sort of god yet find it difficult believe in homeopathy. The drug companies are only here to make money from sick people and have had many f**k up along the way. I rermember my neighbors son was effected by thalidomide.