Travellers and the dole

shangri la

This is going to come across as ignorant which is not my intention but any time a specific group is identified the racist finger is pointed. This is simply a discussion.

I was watching a programe about travellers in ireland and the interviewer asked each of the youngsters what the would do when they left school and every one of them said they were going to go on the dole and get married. That was the entire plan. Every traveller I know personally is on the dole.

I know travellers face discrimination a lot but what do you make of the widespread culture of spending many years on the dole if not the majority of their adult lives?

The vast majority of travellers intend to spend many years on the dole, they are not looking for work.

Why are people allowed to spend 20+ years on the dole when they are fit and healthy and everyone other adult at their residence is doing the same thing?

Its not discrimination when its a well known fact.

biko

I'll try to save this thread by moving it to Humanities from AH.

I saw a programme where a traveller they interviewed claimed travellers doesn't view work as a steady income whereas welfare was viewed as a steady income.

What needs to be done I think is to favour inclusion into society and discourage exclusion. Promote schooling and working and remove the thinking that a person can get on the dole and stay there.

Pappacharlie

The 2nd level qualification is when you get disability allowance. Then the partner gets a 3rd level qualification and gets Carer's Allowance because they are looking after the one on disability. Now it gets really good because the carer now qualifies for a respite grant of €1200 a year so that they can pay someone to look after the one on disability while they have a break. They are all at it. On I can feel it coming on, here come the DOO GOODERS!!!

shangri la

So how much can a couple on the dole get if one is "disabled" and the other is their carer and they have 2 kids under 16 and live in a rented house in dublin with the various other allowances?

shangri la

Have any studies been done to get figures on the percentage of travellers who are long term dole receipants?

Balmed Out

How do people react if they have a new postman / barman / cleaner / gp who is a traveller.
Poorly, many will look to go elsewhere for the sevice.
Given that its fairly understandable for employers to discriminate against them.
I would think at the height of the period of near full employment it was still tough enough for a traveller to get a job and nigh on impossible at the moment.

That said welfare payments can be ridiculous with people assuming they should still be able to afford their sky tv etc.

Gonzor

Not defending or point fingers or anything. But someone said that every traveller they know is on the dole. I know a fair few travellers, a good few of them are on the dole, but then again a good few of them work. Particularly the younger ones.

Theres not much incentive for employers to hire travellers. THeres a general attitude that they rob all the time- employers dont want that. And secondly, most travellers I know cant read or write....

so in a society were you have a person who cant read/write and has an image of being a thief and then you have a guy with his degree/phd both applying for a job.... who do you suppose will get picked every time.

biko

Indeed, in a recession when it's the employers market the people with no training will lose out big time.

Father Damo

biko wrote: »

What needs to be done I think is to favour inclusion into society and discourage exclusion. Promote schooling and working and remove the thinking that a person can get on the dole and stay there.

:pac:

They exclude themselves.

In an ideal world a government with balls would strip all long term claimants (i.e. most of them) of their dole rights. At which point most would probably go to the UK and claim there. Various East European governments tacitly encourage the Roma to emigrate. Wish our crowd would do the same.

shangri la

As a previous poster mentioned, they exclude themselves.

As far as I know the travellers code forbids them from marrying a non traveller, the women are expected to marry and raise a family while they are still teenagers and alcoholism is rampant. A traveller kid is mocked by other travellers if it is thought they are trying to better themselves through education to the point they give up or move away from their school.

The original question is why should it be accepted that most are long term dole receipants when its ultimately their choice and not completely the settled peoples discrimination that is the root of the problem? Its ridiculous that the majority of the 40,000 travellers in Ireland see the dole as plan A.

gcgirl

Look at the story of Philip on the series "Raw" the chap that sleeps rough and trying to better himself as a chef only for his father to track him down and order him home, the chap that plays his father used to play Blacky Connors in Glenroe which kind of gave away the plot as soon as I seen him, Philip is a young traveller trying to better himself and personally since I know and live beside settled people that the story is a pretty real one and there are barriers and presumptions, which need to be addressed

shangri la

I don't watch that programe.

Are you saying that travellers are discouraged from working within the settled community by their families?

Zulu

<Devils advocate> perhaps the dole payment should only be made to those who are in our society or trying to integrate into our society, and not to those who do not wish to be in our society.

ie: if you do not wish to settle down, and you wish to maintain a lifesytle contrary to the tax paying society, then, fine, you do not recieve the benfits of that same society.</Devils advocate>

sensibleken

shangri la wrote: »

As a previous poster mentioned, they exclude themselves.

As far as I know the travellers code forbids them from marrying a non traveller, the women are expected to marry and raise a family while they are still teenagers and alcoholism is rampant. A traveller kid is mocked by other travellers if it is thought they are trying to better themselves through education to the point they give up or move away from their school.

The original question is why should it be accepted that most are long term dole receipants when its ultimately their choice and not completely the settled peoples discrimination that is the root of the problem? Its ridiculous that the majority of the 40,000 travellers in Ireland see the dole as plan A.

I dont know where you get your information but my girlfriend is a traveller and there is no code saying she cant marry me. she is doing a phd at the moment and nobody is giving her anything other than encouragement. The big problem is that travellers find it so difficult to get placements in school because you either must have a house in the area, be a certain religion or have family in the school.

Stiffler2

Would it really be that difficult for the SW office to simply pull up these records of not just travellers but whoever has been on the dole longer than 10 years and simply cut it off and say "no more"

gcgirl

shangri la wrote: »

I don't watch that programe.

Are you saying that travellers are discouraged from working within the settled community by their families?

Sometimes I'd say they would, I actually read about a girl who hid that she was a settled traveller to get in to college and now she's a primary school teacher but she still has to hide the fact she is a settled traveller, there are differences in culture, we might not agree with aspects of theirs while they might disagree with aspects of our own culture,it's also hard for LGBT travellers because their are automatically disowned, Over the last 25/30 years there are more travellers going to 2nd level schools, the community groups as well are showing that education is something to be embraced and sadly like in any group you have your bad eggs but that's what we hear about, you never hear about the success stories and it's harder for travellers to try and get jobs other than working themselves which they have to do.

gcgirl

sensibleken wrote: »

shangri la wrote: »

As a previous poster mentioned, they exclude themselves.

As far as I know the travellers code forbids them from marrying a non traveller, the women are expected to marry and raise a family while they are still teenagers and alcoholism is rampant. A traveller kid is mocked by other travellers if it is thought they are trying to better themselves through education to the point they give up or move away from their school.

The original question is why should it be accepted that most are long term dole receipants when its ultimately their choice and not completely the settled peoples discrimination that is the root of the problem? Its ridiculous that the majority of the 40,000 travellers in Ireland see the dole as plan A.

I dont know where you get your information but my girlfriend is a traveller and there is no code saying she cant marry me. she is doing a phd at the moment and nobody is giving her anything other than encouragement. The big problem is that travellers find it so difficult to get placements in school because you either must have a house in the area, be a certain religion or have family in the school.

I kind of agree there a girl I grew up with married a traveller and I think she her more trouble from her family than from his family

shangri la

Zulu wrote: »

<Devils advocate> perhaps the dole payment should only be made to those who are in our society or trying to integrate into our society, and not to those who do not wish to be in our society. ie: if you do not wish to settle down, and you wish to maintain a lifesytle contrary to the tax paying society, then, fine, you do not recieve the benfits of that same society.</Devils advocate>

claiming the dole is a privilage, not a right. They can continue to live however they like but it should not revolve around being on welfare.

shangri la

This not a critique of traveller culture which it is moving towards. Everybody to their own.

I think that there are a huge number of travellers, possibly more than half, who are on the dole most of their adult life by choice.

Everyone has the choice to live their life any way they choose but they can't expect to have other people pay for it.

If there were genuine limits/restrictions on long term dole claimants and it forced travellers to reduce their unemployment rates it might be the catalyst for improvements in the standard of living and access to education/options for the next generation.

When you see large groups of traveller children waiting to be of age to claim welfare and not have any interest in anything else there is a major problem that is costing the taxpayer at least E5m a year excluding medical card costs and continuing to facilate the social divide and continues the cycle.

Mainly I find it unacceptable for any person to make a life choice to live their life on welfare without having a genuine disability.

shangri la

Stiffler2 wrote: »

Would it really be that difficult for the SW office to simply pull up these records of not just travellers but whoever has been on the dole longer than 10 years and simply cut it off and say "no more"

some people genuinely cant work. the problem is people falsely claiming disability. stricter conditions and checkups are required.

sensibleken

shangri la wrote: »

your girlfriend is by far and away in the minority of travellers. Most don't want to go to college in my experience nevermind go on to a PHd. Im talking about travellers in their younger teenage years.

yes i know that. Im calling bollox on your idea of traveller codes and discouraging education

shangri la

sensibleken wrote: »

yes i know that. Im calling bollox on your idea of traveller codes and discouraging education

fair enough. i got that info mainly from non travellers so it may be bollox.

you will admit that there is a tiny percentage of travellers who continue education beyond age 16 and these days there are a huge number of travellers in council houses so if they wanted to go to school they could so its something within the traveller community that discourages educational progression.

if the kids family doesn't have a house/address, there will be an aunt/uncle in the majority of cases who can provide an address. As far as religion most travellers are catholic so no bother there. I don't know of any secondary school that restricts entry if you don't have a family history in that school.

That only leaves traveller culture.

sensibleken

shangri la wrote: »

fair enough. i got that info mainly from non travellers so it may be bollox.

you will admit that there is a tiny percentage of travellers who continue education beyond age 16 and these days there are a huge number of travellers in council houses so if they wanted to go to school they could so its something within the traveller community that discourages educational progression.

No, I think your placing all the blame of that at the door of the travelling community. Do you have any numbers anout how many traveller living in brick and mortar homes are in school vs those that arent or is it just another assumption

shangri la

Obviously there would be a far higher school going rate in B&M families but I assume most travelling families are in B&M homes.

There has been an enormous decline in the number of halting sites over the last 20 years so that is a fair assumption.

sensibleken

shangri la wrote: »

Obviously there would be a far higher school going rate in B&M families but I assume most travelling families are in B&M homes.

There has been an enormous decline in the number of halting sites over the last 20 years so that is a fair assumption.

Its all assumptions. All you get on a daily basis is assumptions after assumptions that fools take as facts if youre a traveller.

shangri la

Its not baseless assumptions.

Each of these assumptions are almost certainly true for Irish travellers:

1. At least 25% of travellers are on welfare. (Probably more that 50%).

2. Most travellers live in B&M homes.

3. Most travellers are catholic so are not refused access to schools based on religion.

4. Most travellers don't have a leaving cert or a qualification in a trade.

5. Schools don't discriminate or the department of education would be sued very quickly.

6. Most traveller families choose to live their lives in such a way that welfare is necessary to maintain a reasonable standard of modern living.



Which of the above assumptions would you think are false?

sensibleken

shangri la wrote: »

Its not baseless assumptions.

Each of these assumptions are almost certainly true for Irish travellers:

1. At least 25% of travellers are on welfare. (Probably more that 50%).

2. Most travellers live in B&M homes.

3. Most travellers are catholic so are not refused access to schools based on religion.

4. Most travellers don't have a leaving cert or a qualification in a trade.

5. Schools don't discriminate or the department of education would be sued very quickly.

6. Most traveller families choose to live their lives in such a way that welfare is necessary to maintain a reasonable standard of modern living.



Which of the above assumptions would you think are false?

Well if theyre not baseless please tell me what youre basing them on?

shangri la

You first. In your personal opinion based on whatever experience you have which of those assumptions do you think has a realastic chance of being wrong.

sensibleken

shangri la wrote: »

You first. In your personal opinion based on whatever experience you have which of those assumptions do you think has a realastic chance of being wrong.

No Burden of proof is yours. You are the one pulling figures and corelations out of your ass and presenting them as fact.

shangri la

No. I never said they were fact. In everw post I strongly implied they were my opinions. Those stats dont exist because it is illegal for a school or government department to ask someone if they are a traveller.


Without stats all we have are estimates and I would like you to point out which of mine you personally think are wrong. You cant have a discussion without putting forward some of your own assumptions.

The fact is there is a serious problem with welfare dependancy within the travelling community. Your girlfriend wanted to further her education all the way to a PhD and nobody stopped her.

There is nothing stopping others from becoming electricians, builders, butcher ect if college is not for them.

Where are all these barriers to entry you speak of?

You can't deny its a cultural problem.

sensibleken

shangri la wrote: »

No. I never said they were fact. In everw post I strongly implied they were my opinions. Those stats dont exist because it is illegal for a school or government department to ask someone if they are a traveller.


Without stats all we have are estimates and I would like you to point out which of mine you personally think are wrong. You cant have a discussion without putting forward some of your own assumptions.

The fact is there is a serious problem with welfare dependancy within the travelling community. Your girlfriend wanted to further her education all the way to a PhD and nobody stopped her.

There is nothing stopping others from becoming electricians, builders, butcher ect if college is not for them.

Where are all these barriers to entry you speak of?

You can't deny its a cultural problem.

Just highlighting this for you.

Zulu

sensibleken wrote: »

Just highlighting this for you.

You deny that fact?!?


...but perhaps you are right; perhaps there isn't a serious problem with the travelling community with regards being dependant on welfare. Perhaps they are not dependant at all, they just prefer to utilise it to suppliment their lifestyles.

For me, there's a serious problem were people abuse the welfare system at cost to us: that provide it, and to others: who deserve it.

shangri la

Your highlighting something I will stand by but can't prove due to anti discrimination legislation.

If you honestly don't think that traveller culture results in an over reliance on welfare and demand stats you know don't exist to argue against a point you know to be true I will leave it at that.

We clearly have had met different factions of the community and formed contradicting opinions.

sensibleken

Zulu wrote: »

You deny that fact?!?


.

What fact? Please show where on this thread someone has actually provided a verified fact

sensibleken

shangri la wrote: »

Your highlighting something I will stand by but can't prove due to anti discrimination legislation.

If you honestly don't think that traveller culture results in an over reliance on welfare and demand stats you know don't exist to argue against a point you know to be true I will leave it at that.

We clearly have had met different factions of the community and formed contradicting opinions.

You havent even tried to prove it. What you have done is started at a conclusion and derived some assumptions based on nothing.

There are actually studies on education, life span, health in the travelling community out there. You can start at pavee point if you want to

Zulu

sensibleken wrote: »

What fact? Please show where on this thread someone has actually provided a verified fact

What a verified fact? He posted it, and I verify it - will that do? :rolleyes:

You deny that the travelling community find it difficult to get work? No??
But that dosesn't corrolate to social welfare? No?? Seriously???

It's pretty pointless discussing anything if you refuse to acknowledge basic points that are as clear as the sky is blue, and seek proof that water is wet.

Although this tactic doesn't surprise me, it often gets drummed out as an excuse to hide the obvious challanges faced by the travelling community. Sadly, avoidance doesn't solve the problems.

sensibleken

Zulu wrote: »

What a verified fact? He posted it, and I verify it - will that do? :rolleyes:

You deny that the travelling community find it difficult to get work? No??
But that dosesn't corrolate to social welfare? No?? Seriously???

It's pretty pointless discussing anything if you refuse to acknowledge basic points that are as clear as the sky is blue, and seek proof that water is wet.

Although this tactic doesn't surprise me, it often gets drummed out as an excuse to hide the obvious challanges faced by the travelling community. Sadly, avoidance doesn't solve the problems.

No, Im afraid for a discussion i need more than you verifying it.

The only avoidance Im seeing was from him avoiding verifying anything in the slightest. I should really have stopped when i saw nonsense about a traveller code forbiding intermarriage but sometimes i cant help myself

Zulu

Ah no, in fairness you are right: the travelling community doens't have a problem with social welfare.

shangri la

I have seen results that show 1 in 10 dying in the first 2 years, 1 in 3 by age 25 and over half by age 40. Thats a result of choosing to live in squalid conditions and marrying within their extended families, chronic alcoholism and surprisingly most common under 25 car accidents. These days most have copped on and get social housing or rent supplement.

*They chose to live in those conditions. Its their heritage.

I haven't seen any education study but I assume it says there are very few travellers getting a leaving cert.

*they/their family choose to do this.

End result: semi illerate unskilled young people on the dole who will spend most of their life on it.

*They choose this.

It is what it is, I understand you see your girlfriend experience discrimination and are disgusted by it so will jump to their defense with the cry of "show me proof" when you know its illegal to obtain that information. The lifestyle choices the travelling community make as a whole are a financial and social burden on this country. To argue otherwise or is pointless. I singled out travellers because for a much larger percentage than any other ethnic group they abuse the social system and cry out discrimination whenever anyone says, hold on here a minute, why is this abuse tolerated. If a TD drew attention to this he would be intimidated and accuse of being insensitive to the plight of the travellers.

Oryx

If I look around my own town I see plenty of workshy people abusing the dole who dont come under the 'traveller' tag. You say its cultural, and travellers' choice? Perhaps it is, but it is also because of their lack of choice. One traveller girl getting a phd does not solve the discrimination issues of everyone else.

And as I said initially, they are not the only ones abusing the welfare system, so why single them out? Why not venture into every sink estate in the country and point a finger at those people too? Its a cultural problem alright, but not the sole reserve of travellers.

shangri la

Oryx wrote: »

If I look around my own town I see plenty of workshy people abusing the dole who dont come under the 'traveller' tag. You say its cultural, and travellers' choice? Perhaps it is, but it is also because of their lack of choice. One traveller girl getting a phd does not solve the discrimination issues of everyone else.

And as I said initially, they are not the only ones abusing the welfare system, so why single them out? Why not venture into every sink estate in the country and point a finger at those people too? Its a cultural problem alright, but not the sole reserve of travellers.

read the post just above yours.

sensibleken

shangri la wrote: »

I have seen results that show 1 in 10 dying in the first 2 years, 1 in 3 by age 25 and over half by age 40. Thats a result of choosing to live in squalid conditions and marrying within their extended families, chronic alcoholism and surprisingly most common under 25 car accidents. These days most have copped on and get social housing or rent supplement.

So hang on. You are complaining about so many on the dole and then recomend they go get social housing or rent suppliment. are you actually listening to yourself?

shangri la wrote: »

I haven't seen any education study but I assume it says there are very few travellers getting a leaving cert.

*they/their family choose to do this.

End result: semi illerate unskilled young people on the dole who will spend most of their life on it.

*They choose this.

baseless assumption that does not factor in prejudice in the schooling system. baseless assuption about the dole again that you do/or do not recomend that they take advantage of.

shangri la wrote: »

It is what it is, I understand you see your girlfriend experience discrimination and are disgusted by it so will jump to their defense with the cry of "show me proof" when you know its illegal to obtain that information. The lifestyle choices the travelling community make as a whole are a financial and social burden on this country. To argue otherwise or is pointless. I singled out travellers because for a much larger percentage than any other ethnic group they abuse the social system and cry out discrimination whenever anyone says, hold on here a minute, why is this abuse tolerated. If a TD drew attention to this he would be intimidated and accuse of being insensitive to the plight of the travellers.

Whats the percentage then? Come on please funish us with it. Or at lest tell me how you know that its much larger? could it be that your pulling this stuff out of your hole again.

shangri la

I recommend they support themselves where possible. By and large they don't. That is clear to see. I don't need a survey to tell me the obvious.

As I have already said no stats exist as they cant be asked by a school or government agency if they are a traveller.

I would love to know the percentage of travellers in ireland on welfare but for now i'll continue to say the majority until i'm proven wrong.

sensibleken

shangri la wrote: »

I recommend they support themselves where possible. By and large they don't. That is clear to see. I don't need a survey to tell me the obvious.

As I have already said no stats exist as they cant be asked by a school or government agency if they are a traveller.

I would love to know the percentage of travellers in ireland on welfare but for now i'll continue to say the majority until i'm proven wrong.

As i said, baseless. you sound like someone who went around in the middle ages banging on about jews poisoning wells

flutered

they also have the right to draw the dole and trade, this is one hell of a perk.

irishh_bob

shangri la wrote: »

This is going to come across as ignorant which is not my intention but any time a specific group is identified the racist finger is pointed. This is simply a discussion.

I was watching a programe about travellers in ireland and the interviewer asked each of the youngsters what the would do when they left school and every one of them said they were going to go on the dole and get married. That was the entire plan. Every traveller I know personally is on the dole.

I know travellers face discrimination a lot but what do you make of the widespread culture of spending many years on the dole if not the majority of their adult lives?

The vast majority of travellers intend to spend many years on the dole, they are not looking for work.

Why are people allowed to spend 20+ years on the dole when they are fit and healthy and everyone other adult at their residence is doing the same thing?

Its not discrimination when its a well known fact.

its a very valid question , ireland is fairly unique in that regardless of how long you are unemployed and drawing benefits , the amount you recieve doesnt change , even countries with world famous wellfare states like denmark have a sliding scale after a period of time

as for travellers , thier are various QUANGO,s in ireland which more or less encourage travellers to see themselves as perpetual victims of prejudice , theese liberals instill a sense of entitlement within travellers , excusing thier indifferent attitudes to social norms as culture

irishh_bob

sensibleken wrote: »

I dont know where you get your information but my girlfriend is a traveller and there is no code saying she cant marry me. she is doing a phd at the moment and nobody is giving her anything other than encouragement. The big problem is that travellers find it so difficult to get placements in school because you either must have a house in the area, be a certain religion or have family in the school.

must be a certain religon ?

irishh_bob

shangri la wrote: »

Its not baseless assumptions.

Each of these assumptions are almost certainly true for Irish travellers:

1. At least 25% of travellers are on welfare. (Probably more that 50%).

2. Most travellers live in B&M homes.

3. Most travellers are catholic so are not refused access to schools based on religion.

4. Most travellers don't have a leaving cert or a qualification in a trade.

5. Schools don't discriminate or the department of education would be sued very quickly.

6. Most traveller families choose to live their lives in such a way that welfare is necessary to maintain a reasonable standard of modern living.



Which of the above assumptions would you think are false?

25% of travellers are on wellfare :eek: , in your dreams , try trebbling that figure and you would probabley be underestimating , even the ones who work at putting down tarmacadam and painting farm buildings :rolleyes: work for cash in the main and are offically unemployed

shangri la

sensibleken wrote: »

As i said, baseless. you sound like someone who went around in the middle ages banging on about jews poisoning wells

Would you say more than half of travellers are not on some form of welfare?


This is no longer about burden of proof. Its simply a discussion and all your saying is that I can't discuss my opinion without stats that are illegal to collect.

shangri la

Ken, you might get off the fence and give your opinion rather than saying if the stats can't be shown I shouldn't give my opinion.

shangri la wrote: »

Each of these assumptions are almost certainly true for Irish travellers:

1. At least 25% of travellers are on welfare. (Probably more that 50%).

2. Most travellers live in B&M homes.

3. Most travellers are catholic so are not refused access to schools based on religion.

4. Most travellers don't have a leaving cert or a qualification in a trade.

5. Schools don't discriminate or the department of education would be sued very quickly.

6. Most traveller families choose to live their lives in such a way that welfare is necessary to maintain a reasonable standard of modern living.



Which of the above assumptions would you think are false?

susiebubbles

Equality tribunal found that the school in Tipperary was in fact discriminating against travellers in their school admission policy.

http://www.pila.ie/download/pdf/equality_trib_judgement_mary_stokes_on_behalf_of_son_john.pdf

There are interesting stats on the number of traveller children in 2nd level (1988 there were fewer than 100, 1999-961, 2088-2,874)

Other studies that include traveller children and barriers to education;

http://www.ucc.ie/law/pdf/Barriers-to-Childrens-Rights-Executive-Summary.pdf

http://www.spd.dcu.ie/main/academic/special_education/documents/StPatricksCollegeSENReport2010_000.pdf

http://www.oco.ie/assets/files/Barrierstorealisationofchildren_x0027_srights.pdf

Most organisations expect that their employees have the Leaving Cert so with so few travellers getting their LC and high illiteracy levels how can they be expected to get most jobs?

The Dept of Education is not responsible for schools admission policy and are fighting tooth and nail in the courts not to be.