SW payments for commuions-WHY

token101

I Heart Internet wrote: »

FFS - why blame the church because parts of Irish society moronically spend way too much money on the materialistic rubbish surrounding these events?

And how does the reduction in exceptional need payments for these things show that "the RCC's control of the govt is slipping". Seriously, how? :cool:

I've yet to see any bishop/ priest come out and condemn this. They would have been out in force 20 years ago 'protecting families against the cuts' until they were put in their place.

ItsAWindUp

token101 wrote: »

I've yet to see any bishop/ priest come out and condemn this. They would have been out in force 20 years ago 'protecting families against the cuts' until they were put in their place.

It's because they know they haven't got a leg to stand on

gurramok

I Heart Internet wrote: »

FFS - why blame the church because parts of Irish society moronically spend way too much money on the materialistic rubbish surrounding these events?

And how does the reduction in exceptional need payments for these things show that "the RCC's control of the govt is slipping". Seriously, how? :cool:

State money going to followers of a religion, only the influence of the church could have instigated it. Now its been called into question, it is one small step away from religious interference in our affairs.

I Heart Internet

token101 wrote: »

I've yet to see any bishop/ priest come out and condemn this. They would have been out in force 20 years ago 'protecting families against the cuts' until they were put in their place.

I've seen this very frequently- let's face it - the issue has been coming up for years. Any cleric I've ever heard speaking about it has been on the side of simplicity, no-fuss and modesty.

(on your second point)The Catholic Church is still very much involved in the policy and practicalities of social justice:

http://www.socialjustice.ie/
http://www.jcfj.ie/index.php
http://www.catholicbishops.ie/social/
http://www.mqi.ie/
http://www.pmvtrust.ie/

etc

token101

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I've seen this very frequently- let's face it - the issue has been coming up for years. Any cleric I've ever heard speaking about it has been on the side of simplicity, no-fuss and modesty.

(on your second point)The Catholic Church is still very much involved in the policy and practicalities of social justice:

http://www.socialjustice.ie/
http://www.jcfj.ie/index.php
http://www.catholicbishops.ie/social/
http://www.mqi.ie/
http://www.pmvtrust.ie/

etc

Except when it comes to cooperating with authorities in outing serial abusers of course. Then it's Omerta all the way.

I Heart Internet

gurramok wrote: »

State money going to followers of a religion, only the influence of the church could have instigated it. Now its been called into question, it is one small step away from religious interference in our affairs.

Fashionable nonsense.

Irish polititians giving money to Irish people who love free money......no opus dei conspiracy there.

ejmaztec

ScumLord wrote: »

So, they regard playing Mario as essential too. Kids think stupid things.

Which is a lot of people, you don't even have to view the church in any negative way to see this is a personal and optional expense. If you want to dress your child as a fairy off with you but we ain't paying for it.

My kids made their communion in England, and there was hardly any expense at all (certainly no need for a handout). I couldn't believe it when I arrived here, to see how much money was being thrown at it by competitive parents, kids dressed to the nines, and then their being dragged around the neighbours' and the relatives' houses for a cash donation.

My kids remarked that they wish they'd done their communion here, because they would have made a mint.

gurramok

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Fashionable nonsense.

Irish polititians giving money to Irish people who love free money......no opus dei conspiracy there.

Thats money to some Irish people, followers of the main religion. Thats religious politicians pandering to their religious base, what happened will probably emerge at some tribunal in the future. Did anyone else get payments? No.

I Heart Internet

gurramok wrote: »

Thats money to some Irish people, followers of the main religion. Thats religious politicians pandering to their religious base, what happened will probably emerge at some tribunal in the future. Did anyone else get payments? No.

Ummm.....I understand those payments were by means of an "exceptional need payment". So by their nature they would (or should) be on a case by case basis.

Are you saying that all government payments should be paid to everyone or nobody and that anything else is a national scandal? In that case, I'll have a widow's pension, disability allowance and 3 children's allowances please.......sure isn't it only fair, other people are getting it.

Just to be clear - I think these payments are bull****. They should be removed - not just halved.

gurramok

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Ummm.....I understand those payments were by means of an "exceptional need payment". So by their nature they would (or should) be on a case by case basis.

Are you saying that all government payments should be paid to everyone or nobody and that anything else is a national scandal? In that case, I'll have a widow's pension, disability allowance and 3 children's allowances please.......sure isn't it only fair, other people are getting it.

Just to be clear - I think these payments are bull****. They should be removed - not just halved.

You're picking it up wrong. All payments should not have a religious factor to them. For example these "exceptional needs payments" were solely for Catholic religious followers, Jews or atheists did not receive any "exceptional needs payments" for their beliefs and yes atheists believe in no god(:)).

Everyone should be treated equally but they were not, RCC followers got preference under these payments, thats discrimination.

token101

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Ummm.....I understand those payments were by means of an "exceptional need payment". So by their nature they would (or should) be on a case by case basis.

Are you saying that all government payments should be paid to everyone or nobody and that anything else is a national scandal? In that case, I'll have a widow's pension, disability allowance and 3 children's allowances please.......sure isn't it only fair, other people are getting it.

Just to be clear - I think these payments are bull****. They should be removed - not just halved.

No but it should have been available for everyone to apply to. If an Islamic family turns up at the SW office and wants money for a religious occasion were they going to be compensated? What about my minority religion which believes in the sanctity of filesharing, when am I getting my free money for my Rapidshare account? The Church and state should be entirely separate entities. That's the point, and under a system which gives you more money essentially for being a Catholic that's not the case.

opinion guy

TheZohan wrote: »

It should be mandatory for kids to make their communion and confirmation in school uniform.

Hmm Zohan I must disagree. It should not be mandatory for kids to make their communion and confirmaiton no matter what they are wearing
Also school uniform - hmmm problem I have with this is I don't think this **** should be anything to do with school. Why do schools waste time indoctrinating kids in this rubbish when they could be teaching them useful stuff like Chinese ? Also if its involved in schools than kids feel a peer pressure to conform. Exhibit A:

slarkin123 wrote: »

We did discuss not letting her make it the poor child got into snap awful state. She was picked on in school and felt like she was losing her friends. I couldn't bare to see my child so depressed and i caved. We weren't out of pocket cause it was money i was saving for the communion anyway.

This **** should be NOTHING to do with schools. Let parents/churches brainwash kids on their own time and on their own eurons. Sunday school, evening school whatever. Let them wear whatever the feck they want so long as they pay for it themselves. But take it out of schools and cut the grants and the numbers will plummet anyhow as parents won't want to pay for sunday school etc.

mossyc123

opinion guy wrote: »

Hmm Zohan I must disagree. It should not be mandatory for kids to make their communion and confirmaiton no matter what they are wearing
Also school uniform - hmmm problem I have with this is I don't think this **** should be anything to do with school. Why do schools waste time indoctrinating kids in this rubbish when they could be teaching them useful stuff like Chinese ? Also if its involved in schools than kids feel a peer pressure to conform. Exhibit A:

Nonsense.

We need to improve Science/Maths/IT not waste time learning a language that is completely removed from indo-european tongues and that will be pointless as the Chinese who have money, have English!!!

I Heart Internet

gurramok wrote: »

You're picking it up wrong. All payments should not have a religious factor to them. For example these "exceptional needs payments" were solely for Catholic religious followers, Jews or atheists did not receive any "exceptional needs payments" for their beliefs and yes atheists believe in no god(:)).

Everyone should be treated equally but they were not, RCC followers got preference under these payments, thats discrimination.

No I'm not. I have no reason to doubt that if any needy family approached their local SW officer asking for money for anything of this nature they would have got a fair hearing. They, like their catholic neighbour's shouldn't have been given the money but there is nothing stopping them from applying. Nothing at all. Are you suggesting that SW officers are bigoted and would look more kindly on a catholic family than a non-religious or muslim family?

token101 wrote: »

No but it should have been available for everyone to apply to.

It was. Anyone can apply for exceptional needs payments.

token101 wrote: »

If an Islamic family turns up at the SW office and wants money for a religious occasion were they going to be compensated?

I'd have thought so - if they can prove they're in "exceptional need". As I've already said, I don't believe these events warrant it. Mabe they do.....in exceptional cases....that's for a prudent SW officer to decide I guess.

token101 wrote: »

What about my minority religion which believes in the sanctity of filesharing, when am I getting my free money for my Rapidshare account?

Talk to your SW officer....seriously.....if you don't ask you don't get.

token101 wrote: »

The Church and state should be entirely separate entities. That's the point, and under a system which gives you more money essentially for being a Catholic that's not the case.

No. That's not the case here. The system gives you more money for demonstrating an exceptional need. What constitutes an exceptional need id very subjective. I don't think funding a social/religious event/outing does.

Just another case of the church being blamed for our state's rules.

gurramok

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No I'm not. I have no reason to doubt that if any needy family approached their local SW officer asking for money for anything of this nature they would have got a fair hearing. They, like their catholic neighbour's shouldn't have been given the money but there is nothing stopping them from applying. Nothing at all. Are you suggesting that SW officers are bigoted and would look more kindly on a catholic family than a non-religious or muslim family?

Yes, not just them. The state has been bigoted against anyone who was not Catholic. It was(and is) a payment to only followers of the Catholic religion. Its stuff that an equivalent structure for Muslims in Iran would have had the Islamists proud of to copy.

mossyc123

token101 wrote: »

No but it should have been available for everyone to apply to. If an Islamic family turns up at the SW office and wants money for a religious occasion were they going to be compensated? What about my minority religion which believes in the sanctity of filesharing, when am I getting my free money for my Rapidshare account? The Church and state should be entirely separate entities. That's the point, and under a system which gives you more money essentially for being a Catholic that's not the case.

Jews are generally self sufficient and wouldn't be culturally inclined to ask for state support.

I doubt a Muslim family would be turned down by the community welfare officer if they asked ( is there a similiar ceremony in Islam?!), but, again they are immigrants who generally work hard and aren't welfare chancers.

gurramok wrote: »

You're picking it up wrong. All payments should not have a religious factor to them. For example these "exceptional needs payments" were solely for Catholic religious followers, Jews or atheists did not receive any "exceptional needs payments" for their beliefs and yes atheists believe in no god(:)).

Everyone should be treated equally but they were not, RCC followers got preference under these payments, thats discrimination.

Re discrimination:
You're either Atheist with all the advantages of not having any "indoctrination" :rolleyes: of your kids or you're not.

I personally don't agree with these payments (unless there is a serious chance of the child being "shown up" on the day) but the suggestion that you are not entitled to a payment for something you will never have to pay for is "discrimination" is utter nonsense.

I Heart Internet

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, not just them. The state has been bigoted against anyone who was not Catholic. It was(and is) a payment to only followers of the Catholic religion. Its stuff that an equivalent structure for Muslims in Iran would have had the Islamists proud of to copy.

As I said, it appears to be a payment based on "exceptional need" - based on nothing other than if you need it or not.

mossyc123

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, not just them. The state has been bigoted against anyone who was not Catholic. It was(and is) a payment to only followers of the Catholic religion. Its stuff that an equivalent structure for Muslims in Iran would have had the Islamists proud of to copy.

Utter nonsense.

gurramok

mossyc123 wrote: »

Re discrimination:
You're either Atheist with all the advantages of not having any "indoctrination" :rolleyes: of your kids or you're not.

I personally don't agree with these payments (unless there is a serious chance of the child being "shown up" on the day) but the suggestion that you are not entitled to a payment for something you will never have to pay for is "discrimination" is utter nonsense.

No its not, preference is shown to Catholics over others for these payments.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

As I said, it appears to be a payment based on "exceptional need" - based on nothing other than if you need it or not.

How is attending a church service for a child an "exceptional need"? Why should taxpayers money be donated to such religious activities??

I Heart Internet

gurramok wrote: »

How is attending a church service for a child an "exceptional need"?

It isn't. I don't think I read one single post on this topic that said it was. Not one.

gurramok wrote: »

Why should taxpayers money be donated to such religious activities??

That's a wild swing at the argument! Taxpayer's money is currently (wrongly) being spent supporting families in a perceived need. Everyone and his mam here seems to be in agreement that there are better things to spend SW money on.

Ms. Pingui

I think this grant is fair enough. I would'nt want to stop any child from a needy family from having a nice, special day for their communion. I doubt kids from genuinely poor family get any sort of treat very often. Why not just let them have their day in a nice outfit with their classmates?

lazygal

And what do the parents of non communion kids claim the money for? A nice day out? How is a nice day out an 'exceptional need'?

ItsAWindUp

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

I think this grant is fair enough. I would'nt want to stop any child from a needy family from having a nice, special day for their communion. I doubt kids from genuinely poor family get any sort of treat very often. Why not just let them have their day in a nice outfit with their classmates?

Why should the taxpayer pay though? Why does the event of a communion get special treatment?

Freddie59

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

It's because they know they haven't got a leg to stand on

It's also because, like any sane person, they do not condone the wastage on Communion Day.

Ms. Pingui

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

Why should the taxpayer pay though? Why does the event of a communion get special treatment?

Maybe the tax payer should'nt have to pay, but if that the only way a poor child can have a rare nice day then I say let them have it. It's not much in them scheme of things and as I said before it's not like these kids are getting much in the way of nice things anyway.
It makes me sad that everyone is for themselves these days. Wheres the sense of charity and community?

This grant is not just for communions, its an exceptional needs grant.

Janedoe10

I don't agree with michael I Leary / ryanair that much but it's a general entitlement sickness that some people suffer from in this welfare state . ( paid to have sex) I.e then one parent familys automatically are expecting. Hand outs . Then children are used again like this communion lark . More money . There are all the other stuff in between ..... What happpens the genuine needy suffer because free loaders corrupt the system - which is there to protect the less fortunate ... Why is it now that communions for some is anothe excuse for a drink fest .. . If logic is been used based on past experiences there should be payments for one person house holds as they are losing out on allowances that their. Child laden neighbours are getting ... Human rights issue if u ask me ... You could almost laugh at this as it sounds so ludricious .

lazygal

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

Maybe the tax payer should'nt have to pay, but if that the only way a poor child can have a rare nice day then I say let them have it. It's not much in them scheme of things and as I said before it's not like these kids are getting much in the way of nice things anyway.
It makes me sad that everyone is for themselves these days. Wheres the sense of charity and community?

This grant is not just for communions, its an exceptional needs grant.

Which is more likely to be granted:
1) A request for a few bob for a communion
2) A request for a few bob for a nice day out

I doubt any request for an exceptional NEEDS payment for a 'nice day out' would be entertained. A communion need not cost anything, its not a need. No church would refuse first communion to a child because they didn't have a nice outfit and a day out planned.

boobar

Blazer wrote: »

You see...it's shít like this that should be cut asap.
I've a mate on social and he's off the cigarettes and getting the nicorette inhalers on his medical card and it's saving him about €50 a week..So not only is he saving on cigarettes but also on the cure...it's fúckin ridiculous and these kind of payouts need to stop asap.
God knows how much money is being wasted on crap like this..:mad:

Too bloddy right, lads givin up smokes....what next...they'll be off the gargle as well!

kelle

KTRIC wrote: »

Do you really want your 8 year old making his/her communion in a swim suit ??

Well I wouldn't, but my daughter wore a dress and accessories I borrowed from a friend and she looked just as beautiful as the rest of her class. The same dress and attire will be worn by my younger daughter in 3 years time.
You can also buy them in St Vincent de Paul shops or eBay. Why spend so much?
And why there is a grant for this is beyond me.

Jack_Russell

these payments are pure nonsense.

why should hard-pressed taxpayers have to subsidise some inner-city knacker's day out?

we truly live in a Banana republic.:rolleyes:

Ms. Pingui

lazygal wrote: »

Which is more likely to be granted:
1) A request for a few bob for a communion
2) A request for a few bob for a nice day out

I doubt any request for an exceptional NEEDS payment for a 'nice day out' would be entertained. A communion need not cost anything, its not a need. No church would refuse first communion to a child because they didn't have a nice outfit and a day out planned.

A communion is a religious ceremony and a nice day out it not? Of course the church isnt going to refuse first communion to a child without a new outfit. I just think its really petty to make a child feel like the odd one out from their class just because their parents might not have a lot of money. Why are people so against kids having their day with the rest of their class for the sake of a few bob?

Sandwlch

Because Ireland used to be a catholic country. Despite it now having grown out of it, some after effects are still being felt.

Ms. Pingui

Jack_Russell wrote: »

these payments are pure nonsense.

why should hard-pressed taxpayers have to subsidise some inner-city knacker's day out?

we truly live in a Banana republic.:rolleyes:

Wow so everyone who cant afford clothes for their childs communion is an "inner city knacker"?

saa

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

Maybe the tax payer should'nt have to pay, but if that the only way a poor child can have a rare nice day then I say let them have it. It's not much in them scheme of things and as I said before it's not like these kids are getting much in the way of nice things anyway.
It makes me sad that everyone is for themselves these days. Wheres the sense of charity and community?

This grant is not just for communions, its an exceptional needs grant.

Ahem post poor child in da house~.. If there wasn't the expectation to wear a dress (which can be bought online from 26 euro new) or a suit then there wouldn't be this problem, they're children they would look precious in their uniform with a ribbon on. I think there are better means of funding benefits directly for disadvantaged children, a religious ceremony should be special regardless of expense, it is an optional private mater.

I am not for myself I do community work and I see issues with this payment, I have seen the full list of CWO benefits and this payment is very different because the parents have years to plan for it, they're choosing to do it, its a one off and does not cost hundreds and there is no need for the expenses we see today with communions.

lazygal

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

A communion is a religious ceremony and a nice day out it not? Of course the church isnt going to refuse first communion to a child without a new outfit. I just think its really petty to make a child feel like the odd one out from their class just because their parents might not have a lot of money. Why are people so against kids having their day with the rest of their class for the sake of a few bob?

Because, for whatever reason, this payment is for a Catholic ceremony. Somehow, the tradition or rule grew that a religious sacrament, requiring no money, was worthy of an 'exceptional needs' payment for what most people think is totally unnecessary expenditure on clothes and a party. If the child is left out of the class, well that says more about our divisive religious education system and the priorities of the other parents than anything else.

Would you think its ok for a parent to request an exceptional needs payment for a birthday party? Is that a need?

LordSutch

Rabies wrote: »

The church should pay

Too right, and its the Roman Catholic Church that should pay and no other Church ! (some of us are not RCs you know) - the whole thing is a farce & we are still talking about it in amazement this evening, its a crazy perk that should never have existed, the banana republic is alive & well.

slarkin123

opinion guy wrote: »

TheZohan wrote: »

It should be mandatory for kids to make their communion and confirmation in school uniform.

Hmm Zohan I must disagree. It should not be mandatory for kids to make their communion and confirmaiton no matter what they are wearing
Also school uniform - hmmm problem I have with this is I don't think this **** should be anything to do with school. Why do schools waste time indoctrinating kids in this rubbish when they could be teaching them useful stuff like Chinese ? Also if its involved in schools than kids feel a peer pressure to conform. Exhibit A:

slarkin123 wrote: »

We did discuss not letting her make it the poor child got into snap awful state. She was picked on in school and felt like she was losing her friends. I couldn't bare to see my child so depressed and i caved. We weren't out of pocket cause it was money i was saving for the communion anyway.

This **** should be NOTHING to do with schools. Let parents/churches brainwash kids on their own time and on their own eurons. Sunday school, evening school whatever. Let them wear whatever the feck they want so long as they pay for it themselves. But take it out of schools and cut the grants and the numbers will plummet anyhow as parents won't want to pay for sunday school etc.

I agree with you. The sooner the better religion is taken out of the schools. The time spent studying religion could be be better served on maths and English.

texidub

Don't expect any reasonable debate from the Catholics on this matter --one of the requirements of 'faith' is the suspension of critical faculties... they are simply not capable of it (unless you're gay, a single mother, etc. etc. ... then the knives come out).

The State should not pay for this indoctrination process. It encourages mass membership of an organization that's rotten to the core. Let the parents take liability for that act of reckless conformity...

And yes the Church should pay. And if it doesn't don't want to pay it should introduce rules concerning simplicity of garb that remove the pressures on parents.

token101

Jack_Russell wrote: »

these payments are pure nonsense.

why should hard-pressed taxpayers have to subsidise some inner-city knacker's day out?

we truly live in a Banana republic.:rolleyes:

Jesus, I'm far from a bleeding heart softie, but that's a bit harsh!

Ms. Pingui

saa wrote: »

Ahem post poor child in da house~.. If there wasn't the expectation to wear a dress (which can be bought online from 26 euro new) or a suit then there wouldn't be this problem, they're children they would look precious in their uniform with a ribbon on. I think there are better means of funding benefits directly for disadvantaged children, a religious ceremony should be special regardless of expense, it is an optional private mater.

I am not for myself I do community work and I see issues with this payment, I have seen the full list of CWO benefits and this payment is very different because the parents have years to plan for it, they're choosing to do it, its a one off and does not cost hundreds and there is no need for the expenses we see today with communions.

Ya, but as it is children do not wear their uniforms.

Parents are choosing to do it... so they can't choose to do it if they can't afford it? Religious ceremonies are only for the well off these days?

So what if they have years to plan for it? Some people out there are very badly off and just can't afford to save anything, and if they can save if might be for something more urgent.

Temptamperu

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

Maybe the tax payer should'nt have to pay, but if that the only way a poor child can have a rare nice day then I say let them have it. It's not much in them scheme of things and as I said before it's not like these kids are getting much in the way of nice things anyway.
It makes me sad that everyone is for themselves these days. Wheres the sense of charity and community?

This grant is not just for communions, its an exceptional needs grant.

Reading that you would swear they where still running after coal trucks with buckets. These poor kids have plenty of nice days and most of it payed for by the tax payer.

micropig

Children preparing for communion in schools:eek:, most of which are badly equiped:eek: some of which are prefabs:eek: and the government spends money on buying communion dresses:eek:


Not sure which part of the above sentence makes me madder:mad:

partyatmygaff

texidub wrote: »

Don't expect any reasonable debate from the Catholics on this matter --one of the requirements of 'faith' is the suspension of critical faculties... they are simply not capable of it

Spare us the drivel.

In any case, I don't see the sense in the government paying for communions. Notwithstanding the fact that Roman Catholicism isn't the only denomination/religion in Ireland, they don't pay for Catholic baptisms, weddings or funerals so why should they pay an allowance for communions?

Chuck Stone

Collective insanity.

It's a disease that I shall name I.C.P.S.P.

Irish Catholic Princess Syndrome by Proxy.

Look at me! I invented a new 'disease'.

Chinasea

It shouldn't be reduced it should be scrapped.

I think it is interesting that yet another 'benefit' has come to light that most of us seemed to know nothing about except of course for the usual "disadvantaged" scroungers.

Well just a minute, my family, my relations all wore the same hand me down communion dress and thought nothing of it.

Ms. Pingui

Temptamperu wrote: »

Reading that you would swear they where still running after coal trucks with buckets. These poor kids have plenty of nice days and most of it payed for by the tax payer.

How do you know?

lazygal

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

How do you know?

How do you know they don't?

stacexD

€110 to save the child from being bullied for being "poor" having an "ugly dress" and not being able to afford to do anything afterwards

Ms. Pingui

lazygal wrote: »

How do you know they don't?

I'm sure some do, but personally I know plenty of kids who don't.

Temptamperu

stacexD wrote: »

€110 to save the child from being bullied for being "poor" having an "ugly dress" and not being able to afford to do anything afterwards

Well thenb they should take the communion out of school and have parents that want it sort it out instead of wasting everyones time in schools. same with confo get it out of school if you want it go to the priest after school.