SW payments for commuions-WHY

Helix

ejmaztec wrote: »

A small child in a Catholic family who goes to a Catholic school, with Catholicism rammed down his or her throat would regard it as essential.

It would only be seen as "optional" by an adult who doesn't have much regard for the RCC.

it's not essential

you can talk around it any way you want, but it's not something that's essential to the person's life. it's 100% optional.

food is essential

clothes are essential

making your holy fcuking communion decked out in top of the line clothes is not essential

token101

gcgirl wrote: »

We may not see eye to eye on things but your right

It's ok, I forgive you. When the state gets so bankrupt that Ethiopa will be holding concerts for us, then you'll agree that welfare was a bit overpaid, in what will then be known as 'the good days'

stacexD

Temptamperu wrote: »

Well thenb they should take the communion out of school and have parents that want it sort it out instead of wasting everyones time in schools. same with confo get it out of school if you want it go to the priest after school.

Not up to social welfare.

Seachmall

stacexD wrote: »

€110 to save the child from being bullied for being "poor" having an "ugly dress" and not being able to afford to do anything afterwards

There's a radical new concept going around with regards various issues in schools, the government and the Public Sector in general, it's called "addressing the issue".

If children are being bullied because of their clothes we should "address the issue", not throw money at it and hope it goes away. We tried that for many years and unfortunately it stopped being effective once the money ran out.

FTGFOP

Commio... Comunism ...commnuis

Fuck it! Pre-confirmation.

micropig

Seachmall wrote: »

There's a radical new concept going around with regards various issues in schools, the government and the Public Sector in general, it's called "addressing the issue".

If children are being bullied because of their clothes we should "address the issue", not throw money at it and hope it goes away. We tried that for many years and unfortunately it stopped being effective once the money ran out.

But surely the good catholics who deem communion necessary wouldn't be so shallow to look down their noses and ridicule someone because that can't afford a dress.:rolleyes:

Arnold Layne

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

Maybe the tax payer should'nt have to pay, but if that the only way a poor child can have a rare nice day then I say let them have it. It's not much in them scheme of things and as I said before it's not like these kids are getting much in the way of nice things anyway.
It makes me sad that everyone is for themselves these days. Wheres the sense of charity and community?

This grant is not just for communions, its an exceptional needs grant.

No sense of charity and community when the kids' nice day out will consist of coke & crisps in a pub while Mammy & Daddy get pissed. Then theres the opportunity for Mammy to get a few slaps from Daddy when they get home while the child cowers in the corner.

I know this scenariio doesn't apply to all families on SW but will apply to some.

A nice day out for the communion child should be about family; not fake tan, a limo and a black eye for mammy. If the parents want their child to have a day out, then they should save for it. They are getting enough allowances already, i.e. Medical Card, Fuel Allowance, Bin Waiver, etc. The child should not associate celebrating an event with getting sloshed.

Gareth2011

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Chantelle is entitled to a nice Communion day too.

Chantelle alexis to be exact

EddyC15

I wonder do they give payments for Bar Mitzvahs and Muslim and Hindu ceremonies?

Ah, it turns out it's not just for communions. "Exceptional Needs" grant.

Icepick

Welfare claimants received an average €242 each in such payments last year, with €3.4m paid to 14,000 claimants, department figures reveal

Museums, parks 'would be forced to close'
The National Gallery would see cuts of €1.1 million over the three years, while the Irish Film Board would have its allocation reduced by almost €300,000.

General expenses of the Irish Museum of Modern Art, the Chester Beatty Library, the National Archives and the National Archives Advisory Council would be reduced by €1.5 million in total.

Regional museums, galleries and cultural centres would also be hit, with a reduction of €1.2 million over the period.

Idiocracy priorities

Chucky the tree

What other exceptional needs grants are there? Citizens.ie website doesn't give much

bedding or other essential household equipment
funeral expenses, or
other unforeseen large expenses.

Does the confirmation count aswell? What about when you get your school graduation, debs night or college graduation?

Gareth2011

Chucky the tree wrote: »

What other exceptional needs grants are there? Citizens.ie website doesn't give much




Does the confirmation count aswell? What about when you get your school graduation, debs night or college graduation?

I fu*king hope not for the debs. Thats only an excuse for students to go on a piss up to "celebrate" that they finished school. Hardly an exceptional need.

Freddie59

texidub wrote: »

Don't expect any reasonable debate from the Catholics on this matter --one of the requirements of 'faith' is the suspension of critical faculties... they are simply not capable of it (unless you're gay, a single mother, etc. etc. ... then the knives come out).

The State should not pay for this indoctrination process. It encourages mass membership of an organization that's rotten to the core. Let the parents take liability for that act of reckless conformity...

And yes the Church should pay. And if it doesn't don't want to pay it should introduce rules concerning simplicity of garb that remove the pressures on parents.

What a diatribe. Most Catholics find the whole fashion show aspect to be completely ludicrous. No the Church should not pay. The Church does not encourage this madness. It is the parents. Full stop. And no doubt some of the Catholic-bashers on here will spend an equally obscene amount of money on the day. Such hypocrisy. That is the real suspension of "critical faculties" as you put it.:rolleyes:

Ms. Pingui

Arnold Layne wrote: »

No sense of charity and community when the kids' nice day out will consist of coke & crisps in a pub while Mammy & Daddy get pissed. Then theres the opportunity for Mammy to get a few slaps from Daddy when they get home while the child cowers in the corner.

I know this scenariio doesn't apply to all families on SW but will apply to some.

A nice day out for the communion child should be about family; not fake tan, a limo and a black eye for mammy. If the parents want their child to have a day out, then they should save for it. They are getting enough allowances already, i.e. Medical Card, Fuel Allowance, Bin Waiver, etc. The child should not associate celebrating an event with getting sloshed.

Wow. So nobody should get help for their childs communion because some parents get drunk and become violent? You seem to have a very low opinion of people on social welfare. The majority of them are'nt like you described in your post.

Freddie59

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

Wow. So nobody should get help for their childs communion because some parents get drunk and become violent? You seem to have a very low opinion of people on social welfare. The majority of them are'nt like you described in your post.

But, unfortunately, there are an amount that are. As are some who are not on SW. But they pay for it themselves. Not the rest of us.

Temptamperu

Freddie59 wrote: »

What a diatribe. Most Catholics find the whole fashion show aspect to be completely ludicrous. No the Church should not pay. The Church does not encourage this madness. It is the parents. Full stop. And no doubt some of the Catholic-bashers on here will spend an equally obscene amount of money on the day. Such hypocrisy. That is the real suspension of "critical faculties" as you put it.:rolleyes:

And the parents of these children making the communion are muslims then?

Greentopia

stacexD wrote: »

€110 to save the child from being bullied for being "poor" having an "ugly dress" and not being able to afford to do anything afterwards

If Catholic parents feel they must dress their little darlings up like mini brides-
charity shops in the town I live have communion dresses in the window displays. ~€10/€20.

Why is it necessary to spend €110 if you're struggling to make ends meet, never mind insane amounts like €250 that I heard mentioned on the radio earlier as being the average??

And how the hell does buying expensive clothes for a religious ceremony to keep up with the expectation of your neighbours count as "Exceptional needs"? :rolleyes:

hawkelady

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

[

Wow. So nobody should get help for their childs communion because some parents get drunk and become violent? You seem to have a very low opinion of people on social welfare. The majority of them are'nt like you described in your post.

Why do you know the " majority" of people on sw??? Cause if you don't then your statement above is meaningless . You seem to want to be the voice of the families Who need this free cash to blow on a flipping party!! Do you believe this " free cash " should not be touched? Please answer. FYI , I think it should be abolished altogether, I bet no kid is going to turn up for their communion in a feckin fertiliser bag cause they are poor, do you.

Piper888

As I understand it the Constitution of this country states that:

The state may not "endow" any religion (Article 44.2.2°), nor discriminate on religious grounds (Article 44.2.3°).

Is this money from our taxes when given for communion attire not an act of 'endow' a religion.

Any Constitutional lawyers care to take up this matter and give an opinion.

Piper888.
One who pays the piper.

mrsbyrne

gcgirl wrote: »

I did not let my daughter make her communion, I told the principle my feelings towards it and as she is unfortunately baptised (I was bulled into it by several people) she could of made it but as I don't really see the point of being a hypocrite I had my mum and my cousin treating to bring her her themselves to make it and them two don't even attend church and I had to put my foot down, so any way she did not make it but she did not feel out of place or get picked on, I'm really lucky she has had some great teachers, the school used to be run by nuns I was sent there hated it and now her 2 younger siblings go to the educate together, I could have moved her only her friends are where she is.

Why did you send your daughter to a school you hated?

Ms. Pingui

hawkelady wrote: »

Why do you know the " majority" of people on sw??? Cause if you don't then your statement above is meaningless . You seem to want to be the voice of the families Who need this free cash to blow on a flipping party!! Do you believe this " free cash " should not be touched? Please answer. FYI , I think it should be abolished altogether, I bet no kid is going to turn up for their communion in a feckin fertiliser bag cause they are poor, do you.

Well you must know them all so!
Why would'nt I side with the kids who don't have much? I bet you would'nt care if someone did have turn up in a "feckin fertiliser bag", because then at least they would'nt have spent your taxes on a dress. :rolleyes:

Helix

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

Wow. So nobody should get help for their childs communion because some parents get drunk and become violent? You seem to have a very low opinion of people on social welfare. The majority of them are'nt like you described in your post.

nobody should get help for their child's communion, unless it's the church offering the money, because the tax payer should not be subsidising indoctrination. they don't do it in any other religion

Ms. Pingui

Helix wrote: »

nobody should get help for their child's communion, unless it's the church offering the money, because the tax payer should not be subsidising indoctrination. they don't do it in any other religion

That's a fair enough reason for being against it.

Arnold Layne

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

Wow. So nobody should get help for their childs communion because some parents get drunk and become violent? You seem to have a very low opinion of people on social welfare. The majority of them are'nt like you described in your post.

I do not have a low opinion of people on Social Wellfare as most do not avail of these "exception payments" from our taxes. Nor is my opinion based on those who, through no fault of their own, have fallen on hard times.

I do, however, have a very low opinion of the 3.9 - 4.9% of those on Social Welfare that are long term recipients and have never paid any taxes to the state. I refer to the percentage range above as this is the percentage that did not work or seek to work when Ireland was in full employment.These are the people who have always worked in the "black economy" but feel that their earned money is for themselves to piss down the drain while the state must look after their children. I have had numerous dealings with this ilk over the past decade and have absolutely no regard for them.

I do not see why my taxes have to pay for these families while they have contributed nothing to society.

Take off your rose tinted glasses and look at the real world.

Jack_Russell

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

Wow so everyone who cant afford clothes for their childs communion is an "inner city knacker"?

no, but that's where the overwhelming majority of these daft payments are goin.

and why should be paying for this quasi religious bull**** anyhow?
if parents want to get their little knacker all dolled up, they should do on their own time & at their own expense.

this country is an open-air lunatic assylum.

Ms. Pingui

Arnold Layne wrote: »

I do not have a low opinion of people on Social Wellfare as most do not avail of these "exception payments" from our taxes. Nor is my opinion based on those who, through no fault of their own, have fallen on hard times.

I do, however, have a very low opinion of the 3.9 - 4.9% of those on Social Welfare that are long term recipients and have never paid any taxes to the state. I refer to the percentage range above as this is the percentage that did not work or seek to work when Ireland was in full employment.These are the people who have always worked in the "black economy" but feel that their earned money is for themselves to piss down the drain while the state must look after their children. I have had numerous dealings with this ilk over the past decade and have absolutely no regard for them.


I do not see why my taxes have to pay for these families while they have contributed nothing to society.

Take off your rose tinted glasses and look at the real world.

I have no regard for people like that either, but you said yourself it's only 3.9- 4.9% so thats the minority. I don't think that nobody should be helped just because there is a small number of people that will abuse it.

Caraville

Didn't read through the whole thread, but the whole making their communion in their school uniform thing might seem like a good idea, does that not enforce the while Catholic hold and connection the Church has over our schools?

I just think people need to cop the hell on and stop making their child's communion into some sort of mini wedding tack fest. The government should not be funding that. I have 2 sisters and we all wore the same communion dress, there are plenty of perfectly good hand-me-downs that people could use.

By the way, I know it's not popular to admit this around here but I'm Catholic and I would imagine the vast majority of us would disagree with this SW payment. I'm also a teacher (I'm really leaving myself open to ridicule now! :-P) and I can think of dozens of other things that need to be paid for as regards children instead if this ridiculous handout.

not yet

Jack_Russell wrote: »

no, but that's where the overwhelming majority of these daft payments are goin.

and why should be paying for this quasi religious bull**** anyhow?
if parents want to get their little knacker all dolled up, they should do on their own time & at their own expense.

this country is an open-air lunatic assylum.

But what about the vulnerable..........they are the ones that are taking the brunt of this recession and it's not on.

gcgirl

mrsbyrne wrote: »

gcgirl wrote: »

I did not let my daughter make her communion, I told the principle my feelings towards it and as she is unfortunately baptised (I was bulled into it by several people) she could of made it but as I don't really see the point of being a hypocrite I had my mum and my cousin treating to bring her her themselves to make it and them two don't even attend church and I had to put my foot down, so any way she did not make it but she did not feel out of place or get picked on, I'm really lucky she has had some great teachers, the school used to be run by nuns I was sent there hated it and now her 2 younger siblings go to the educate together, I could have moved her only her friends are where she is.

Why did you send your daughter to a school you hated?

Because its changed since I was there turn over from nuns running it and it's at the time the only option now we have 3 schools to pick from since the old boys/girls school are both co ed from this year

ejmaztec

Helix wrote: »

it's not essential

you can talk around it any way you want, but it's not something that's essential to the person's life. it's 100% optional.

food is essential

clothes are essential

making your holy fcuking communion decked out in top of the line clothes is not essential

It doesn't seem to sinking in does it?

I'm talking about this from the child's point of view, as I've already explained. As far as the child is concerned, it's essential to him or her, largely to do with how big a thing is made of the day by the school, the church and the parents.

I don't think it's essential, you don't think it's essential, but a child in his or her small world would worry themselves into a frenzy if they thought that they looked like the odd one out.

As I've said several times in this thread, it's the fault of competitive parents, clothing shop-keepers and anyone else trying to milk the occasion for every penny they can get.

up for anything

Greentopia wrote: »

If Catholic parents feel they must dress their little darlings up like mini brides-

Jack_Russell wrote: »

if parents want to get their little knacker all dolled up

What nice ways to describe children! Dismissive and abusive. :rolleyes:

Caraville wrote: »

Didn't read through the whole thread, but the whole making their communion in their school uniform thing might seem like a good idea, does that not enforce the while Catholic hold and connection the Church has over our schools?

I just think people need to cop the hell on and stop making their child's communion into some sort of mini wedding tack fest. The government should not be funding that. I have 2 sisters and we all wore the same communion dress, there are plenty of perfectly good hand-me-downs that people could use.

By the way, I know it's not popular to admit this around here but I'm Catholic and I would imagine the vast majority of us would disagree with this SW payment. I'm also a teacher (I'm really leaving myself open to ridicule now! :-P) and I can think of dozens of other things that need to be paid for as regards children instead if this ridiculous handout.

Yes, so can I. One of them being their teachers' holiday pay.

Seachmall

ejmaztec wrote: »

It doesn't seem to sinking in does it?

I'm talking about this from the child's point of view, as I've already explained. As far as the child is concerned, it's essential to him or her, largely to do with how big a thing is made of the day by the school, the church and the parents.

I don't think it's essential, you don't think it's essential, but a child in his or her small world would worry themselves into a frenzy if they thought that they looked like the odd one out.

As I've said several times in this thread, it's the fault of competitive parents, clothing shop-keepers and anyone else trying to milk the occasion for every penny they can get.

The day a child's opinion of what's essential is determining our government expenditure is the day our society collapses.

We all agree it's not essential. What's the problem?

iguana

saa wrote: »

Parents who choose to put their child through this know for years its coming up, put a little aside for clothes and if needs be get a small amount such as 50 euro that will cover quite a bit of the outfit. It's not like needing a suit for a funeral, you know its coming up.

When I made my communion my dad was a poorly paid binman and the sole earner in our family. We lived in a corporation house in Moyross, an area so infamous that I don't think you need to be from Limerick to have heard of it but I've hyper-linked it anyway. A few months before my communion my youngest brother was born and a few months after my communion my other brother started school, two fairly expensive events. Coincidentally I made my communion on the 17th of May 1986, the same day as Self Aid, the country was not in a good place.

Yet not only did my parents cover the costs of my communion with money they had put away for it, five months later they bought a biggish house in a nice area with a 15% deposit. They did that by prioritising the things which were important to them, sacrificing most luxuries, saving every spare penny they had and never getting in any unnecessary debt. It's not always easy to plan ahead and save, especially on a low income but it is certainly possible and is the responsibility of all adults, especially parents.

hawkelady

All parents will know 12 months or more in advance of their little Chantelle or Anto getting their communion !! Save a few bob ffs. Or wear a fertiliser bag!! One way or the other tax money shouldn't be used for the piss up.

Monife

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

A communion is a religious ceremony and a nice day out it not? Of course the church isnt going to refuse first communion to a child without a new outfit. I just think its really petty to make a child feel like the odd one out from their class just because their parents might not have a lot of money. Why are people so against kids having their day with the rest of their class for the sake of a few bob?

They could save €1 a week and they would have double that amount. Surely it's not hard for people to save €1 a week. The state shouldn't have to pick up the tab just so a child feels included. The state is there to pay for the childs shelter and food (where there is a need for it), not a dress to celebrate a religious event.

bonzos

We need the money for the childer....Daddy is busy robbing home heating oil

ejmaztec

ejmaztec wrote: »

As I've said several times in this thread, it's the fault of competitive parents

grand
they can pay for it themselves so

gurramok

ejmaztec wrote: »

I don't think it's essential, you don't think it's essential, but a child in his or her small world would worry themselves into a frenzy if they thought that they looked like the odd one out..

Same can be said for that child who has not got the latest game console while their friends all have one.

Learn to say no.

southsiderosie

ejmaztec wrote: »

It doesn't seem to sinking in does it?

I'm talking about this from the child's point of view, as I've already explained. As far as the child is concerned, it's essential to him or her, largely to do with how big a thing is made of the day by the school, the church and the parents.

I don't think it's essential, you don't think it's essential, but a child in his or her small world would worry themselves into a frenzy if they thought that they looked like the odd one out.

As I've said several times in this thread, it's the fault of competitive parents, clothing shop-keepers and anyone else trying to milk the occasion for every penny they can get.

So should women get a bridal subsidy because she is "expected" to wear a big white dress and every relative in a 100-mile radius will show up for a party featuring a bad DJ and dry chicken?

The government doesn't need to be in the business of funding what is essentially Keeping Up With The Joneses - not that it can afford to anyway.

ejmaztec

bluewolf wrote: »

grand
they can pay for it themselves so

The competitive parents do pay for it themselves, because they're the ones with the big wads.:P

Hotblack Desiato

not yet wrote: »

But what about the vulnerable..........they are the ones that are taking the brunt of this recession and it's not on.

Where's my NAMA, Joe?

Capt'n Midnight

micropig wrote: »

Children preparing for communion in schools:eek:, most of which are badly equiped:eek: some of which are prefabs:eek: and the government spends money on buying communion dresses:eek:


Not sure which part of the above sentence makes me madder:mad:

Would it be the part where the government don't build schools or help anyone building schools until long afterwards ?



The reason why most schools here were setup by religious orders is because they were the only ones investing in the future.


Be interesting to know how much money has been spent on pre-fabs over the years and how many real schools this money would have built :mad:

Capt'n Midnight

stacexD wrote: »

€110 to save the child from being bullied for being "poor" having an "ugly dress" and not being able to afford to do anything afterwards

Fine the bullies ? :pac:


Or make sure everyone knows it's about the communion and not clothes and cash.

DEFTLEFTHAND

It's turned into a grotesque fashion parade in recent years as well as an excuse to throw a party. The sacrament itself is wasted on the children anyway as they're too young to properly comprehend its meaning.

In my view nobody should receive any of the sacraments until they're of an age to make an informed and conscious decision to either join the Church or decline to do so.

Greentopia

up for anything wrote: »

What nice ways to describe children! Dismissive and abusive. :rolleyes:

"Little darlings" is nowhere close to being abusive language. And dismissive is incorrect also so I don't know why you've quoted that comment from me.

I don't have anything against children-childfree by choice myself but not because I have anything against children; I was simply using that term to denote the type of attitude i see some parents as having that says "nothing's too good for my little darling"-in this case people who can't afford it spending obscene amounts of money on a communion dress and expecting the cost to be covered by the State.

gcgirl

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

It's turned into a grotesque fashion parade in recent years as well as an excuse to throw a party. The sacrament itself is wasted on the children anyway as they're too young to properly comprehend its meaning.

In my view nobody should receive any of the sacraments until they're of an age to make an informed and conscious decision to either join the Church or decline to do so.

My own thoughts exactly

ejmaztec

southsiderosie wrote: »

So should women get a bridal subsidy because she is "expected" to wear a big white dress and every relative in a 100-mile radius will show up for a party featuring a bad DJ and dry chicken?

The government doesn't need to be in the business of funding what is essentially Keeping Up With The Joneses - not that it can afford to anyway.

I'm sure that if you're hard-up, and make an appointment with the local Community Welfare Officer, he'll make sure that you look your best for the big day.:P

Mike 1972

IPAM wrote: »

Another welfare thread, imagine that...

Not often one comes across a well founded one though
.

TheZohan wrote: »

It should be mandatory for kids to make their communion and confirmation in school uniform.

Au contraire.

Religion should have no place in the "education" system.

(Niether should uniforms but thats another matter entirely)

Seachmall

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Fine the bullies ? :pac:

I'm sure there's a benefit they can claim for that.

micropig

I've not read all this yet but just wondering



CAN THEY NOT WEAR THEIR PYJAMAS



BUISNESS IDEA: Start making communion pyjamas:p


(I'll sell them for €75 and still make a profit;)