SW payments for commuions-WHY

mossyc123

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Ah the old 'everybody knows' argument. I guess that is much more effective than having to produce any actual evidence or facts. So let's review the facts.

1) There is no compulsory sick leave in the working world
2) There is limited uncertified sick leave in many organisations - both public and private. In the public sector, the usual limits are;
- no more than two consecutive days uncertified
- no Friday/Monday uncertified
- more than four uncertified in any 12 month period generates a warning
- seven uncertified days means that the privilege of uncertified sick leave is withdrawn, and all sick leave has to be certified.

All standard, sensible management procedures to find the right balance between avoiding abuse of leave and having sick people dragging themselves into the office (or worse, into the hospital) and infecting all around them.

You haven't linked to any facts as far as I can see so i'll just have to take your word on it that this is general public service policy.

Policy can be different to reality, we all know that.

How did the Irish Independent come up with a figure of 4.85% absenteeism rate for the HSE and only 2.58% in the private sector?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/revealed-huge-scale-of-hospital-sick-leave-2892416.html

This is completely off-topic anyway.

It's just my opinion formed by my experiences that there is a different attitude to sick leave in the public sector then there is in the private sector.

Helix

ejmaztec wrote: »

I didn't actually say that they should, so your reply seems nonsensical in the circumstances.

as opposed to "oh the kids think it's essential, so it's ok" that you rolled out?

Meauldsegosha

mossyc123 wrote: »

You haven't linked to any facts as far as I can see so i'll just have to take your word on it that this is general public service policy.

Policy can be different to reality, we all know that.

How did the Irish Independent come up with a figure of 4.85% absenteeism rate for the HSE and only 2.58% in the private sector?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/revealed-huge-scale-of-hospital-sick-leave-2892416.html

This is completely off-topic anyway.

It's just my opinion formed by my experiences that there is a different attitude to sick leave in the public sector then there is in the private sector.

Picked a number out of thin air or misrepresentated the facts. We all know how reliable the Irish Independent is.

SerialComplaint

mossyc123 wrote: »

You haven't linked to any facts as far as I can see so i'll just have to take your word on it that this is general public service policy.

Policy can be different to reality, we all know that.

How did the Irish Independent come up with a figure of 4.85% absenteeism rate for the HSE and only 2.58% in the private sector?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/revealed-huge-scale-of-hospital-sick-leave-2892416.html

This is completely off-topic anyway.

It's just my opinion formed by my experiences that there is a different attitude to sick leave in the public sector then there is in the private sector.

Even putting to one side the usual unreliability and agenda-bashing of Independent Newspapers, there is nothing in that article that suggests that people 'have' to take a certain number of leave days. If you want to know why nurses sick leave is higher than the average private sector factory or office, have a little think about who they spend most of their days with - sick people.

TeddyTedson

Rabies wrote: »

The church should pay

They would want something in return probably.

Absolutely bizarre though.
They should scrap this whole forcing of children to make religious "decisions" at such a young age though. All they want is a few days off school and a few quid pocket money.

Hotblack Desiato

opinion guy wrote: »

c) the only reason men don't time with their partners for this stuff is because the law only gives them 3 days paternity leave - something that needs to change ASAP

There is no legal entitlement to paternity leave, at all.

Even if you want to use an annual leave day to attend the birth of your child, the employer is legally permitted to refuse it if they choose.

If you want to know why nurses sick leave is higher than the average private sector factory or office, have a little think about who they spend most of their days with - sick people.

Both people with infectious illnesses, and weak/immune compromised patients who could get very seriously ill from a nurse sneezing on them. This sort of distortion of the truth and exclusion of pertinent, but inconvenient, facts is par for the course with the Indo unfortunately.

gcgirl

The last couple of years the vomiting bug have been rampant in a few hospitals, the daughter caught it and we were there in an isolated ward for days not do good with a hyper 4 yr old, how many hospital staff have caught it and tbh it's easy enough to catch

The Scientician

ninja900 wrote: »

This sort of distortion of the truth and exclusion of pertinent, but inconvenient, facts is par for the course with the Indo unfortunately.

[INDO]Dem Polish Nurses are the worstest [/INDO]

Hotblack Desiato

The Scientician wrote: »

[INDO]Dem Polish Nurses are the worstest [/INDO]

But I hear they give great Hawaiian massages...

mossyc123

TishyO wrote: »

Picked a number out of thin air or misrepresentated the facts. We all know how reliable the Irish Independent is.

Simple thanks whoring stuff there.

Im no fan of The Indo anymore especially after the nonsense that went on this week but they have presented a % based breakdown of absenteeism levels that haven't been rejected by any union or representative body.

If it really was plucked out of thin air how come the HSE West controversy that broke last September wasn't denied anywhere?

It's a fact that sick leave is higher in the HSE then the private sector.

Leaving aside your nonsense bias against a particular newspaper group.

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Even putting to one side the usual unreliability and agenda-bashing of Independent Newspapers, there is nothing in that article that suggests that people 'have' to take a certain number of leave days. If you want to know why nurses sick leave is higher than the average private sector factory or office, have a little think about who they spend most of their days with - sick people.

So do Doctors and you know what the figures are for their level of absenteeism?

Google NCHD Absenteeism and you'll find out.

"0.35% as per October 2011.
10 times lower then the HSE target of 3.5%"

So, whose bringing the averages up to nearly 5% for the HSE as a whole?

It can't all be clerical workers surely?

My point is and remains that there is a problem with a culture of entitlement within certain sectors of the public service in relation to sick leave.

I've only encountered it myself personally in a semi-state where I worked briefly and I have never encountered it in the private sector.

An acquaintance of mine has said that taking sick leave as holidays is practiced among some Nurses.

I'll take their word for it over any Union reps say on the matter or any departmental policy guideline.

As I said before, this is completely off-topic but, I don't really feel like letting something so bloody obvious be refuted without reply :pac:

opinion guy

mossyc123 wrote: »

Simple thanks whoring stuff there.

Im no fan of The Indo anymore especially after the nonsense that went on this week but they have presented a % based breakdown of absenteeism levels that haven't been rejected by any union or representative body.

If it really was plucked out of thin air how come the HSE West controversy that broke last September wasn't denied anywhere?

It's a fact that sick leave is higher in the HSE then the private sector.

Leaving aside your nonsense bias against a particular newspaper group.



So do Doctors and you know what the figures are for their level of absenteeism?

Google NCHD Absenteeism and you'll find out.

"0.35% as per October 2011.
10 times lower then the HSE target of 3.5%"

So, whose bringing the averages up to nearly 5% for the HSE as a whole?

It can't all be clerical workers surely?

My point is and remains that there is a problem with a culture of entitlement within certain sectors of the public service in relation to sick leave.

I've only encountered it myself personally in a semi-state where I worked briefly and I have never encountered it in the private sector.

An acquaintance of mine has said that taking sick leave as holidays is practiced among some Nurses.

I'll take their word for it over any Union reps say on the matter or any departmental policy guideline.

As I said before, this is completely off-topic but, I don't really feel like letting something so bloody obvious be refuted without reply :pac:

Doctors should take more sick day. Except they know if they do the HSE won't hire locums to replace them and everyone else has to work harder.

hawkelady

[Quote=mossyc123;



An acquaintance of mine has said that taking sick leave as holidays is practiced among some Nurses.

:pac:[/Quote]

I was reading this tripe up until your comment there!!!! Your acquaintance probably told you in the pub ..
I also know people in the private sector that take sick days to play golf. I dont go on a rant about it though So get off your horse and stop tarring everyone with the same brush. This goes on in every profession, a tiny minority but goes on. Live your own bloody life ffs

Hootanany

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Even putting to one side the usual unreliability and agenda-bashing of Independent Newspapers, there is nothing in that article that suggests that people 'have' to take a certain number of leave days. If you want to know why nurses sick leave is higher than the average private sector factory or office, have a little think about who they spend most of their days with - sick people.

No work No pay simple:cool:

philologos

States as a general principle shouldn't be actively supporting people to take part in religious rituals of any kind. The only role of the State in respect to religion is to promote freedom of conscience in society. Other than that, as far as I see it as a Christian it is my responsibility and the responsibility of others to promote Christianity in wider society.

Icepick

iguana wrote: »

responsibility of all adults, especially parents.

Now you are asking too much.

Greentopia

philologos wrote: »

States as a general principle shouldn't be actively supporting people to take part in religious rituals of any kind.

I agree. I think States should have no part in supporting religion full stop as I view it as a purely private activity.

philologos wrote: »

as far as I see it as a Christian it is my responsibility and the responsibility of others to promote Christianity in wider society.

As long as you don't promote it in my direction.

I neither want nor need Christianity (or indeed any other religion) in my life.

Who do you mean by "others"? Other Christians?

NakedNNettles

Totally amazed at this communion benefits...totally sick.

How many other strange benefits are there that people haven't heard about?

gizmorox

lazygal wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/struggling-families-communion-payment-slashed-182303.html

wtf is this nonsense? Payment for families for commions? Why should the taxpayer pay for this kind of non-essential spending?

They shouldn't because it's a personal,non essential expense,I'm on social welfare(not proud of it btw)and my daughter's confirmation is coming up,her godparents will pay for her outfit.fyi:This payment is considered a 'compassionate' payment and other similars would be minimal funeral expenses,one off hardship payments etc,these are not automatic entitlements and many are turned down by a community welfare officer.

ejmaztec

Helix wrote: »

as opposed to "oh the kids think it's essential, so it's ok" that you rolled out?

You must be mixing my posts up with someone else's, or failing to comprehend, because in no way did I say that it was ok.

gizmorox

NakedNNettles wrote: »

Totally amazed at this communion benefits...totally sick.

How many other strange benefits are there that people haven't heard about?

these are some I've heard of,clothes allowance for job interview,clothes allowance for ex prisoners,mobile phone allowance for non nationals so they can keep in touch with friends in same situation,think it's to combat isolation as there have been a lot of unreported non national suicides.Can't think of any stranger at the moment but anything would be considered by a community welfare officer then either accepted or denied.

philologos

Greentopia wrote: »

I agree. I think States should have no part in supporting religion full stop as I view it as a purely private activity.

It isn't a private activity though. My faith and the faith of others if it is of any substance will become manifest. As a Christian, I'm meant to be living according to Christian principles, and if I live by Christian principles I will inevitably stand out from the rest of society.

This has happened more simply than I think, mostly through God giving me opportunities to speak about Him. Most of the time where I've spoken about my faith has been when the topic arose first in conversation. I wouldn't be being myself if I kept that from people.

Greentopia wrote: »

As long as you don't promote it in my direction.

I neither want nor need Christianity (or indeed any other religion) in my life.

Free expressions and freedom of conscience and belief mean that there is a right to express ones beliefs freely in society. If you don't want to subscribe to them, that's your choice, but I don't believe anyone has a right to tell people not to speak and live according to their convictions. This will inevitably be a public part of their lives as well as a private part if it is of real substance. I will say though, that faith should both be a private and a public part of peoples lives simultaneously insofar as people should practice what they preach if they want to be taken seriously.

Greentopia wrote: »

Who do you mean by "others"? Other Christians?

Other Christians yes. I wouldn't expect non-Christians to promote Christianity.

Capt'n Midnight

I Heart Internet wrote: »

FYI - The church's statement on the matter

http://www.catholicbishops.ie/2012/02/02/cco-statement-faith-significance-sacraments/

posting the relevant text

In light of the public debate today on the celebration of the Sacraments, and the commercial costs facing families, the Catholic Communications Office has published the following statement:
...
However all the pressure of trying to make these sacramental days special for the child can cause parents a lot of stress. Bishops, priests and schools are very concerned about the cost issue facing parents with children for First Holy Communion and/or Confirmation and have discussed this matter in parishes. If the emphasis for sacramental preparation is placed on commercially related concerns, rather than on the spiritual significance of the sacrament, then it is not a good preparation for Catholic children.
...

SerialComplaint

Hootanany wrote: »

No work No pay simple:cool:

Yep, that's a great simple way of forcing sick people to stay at work and spread infection to their workmates.

mossyc123 wrote: »

I don't really feel like letting something so bloody obvious be refuted without reply

Funnily enough, that's exactly how I felt when I saw the nonsense (now proven to be unsubstantiated nonsense) about 'compulsory sick leave' on this thread. I just popped by to point out that this was nonsense.

Capt'n Midnight

mossyc123 wrote: »

Google NCHD Absenteeism and you'll find out.

"0.35% as per October 2011.
10 times lower then the HSE target of 3.5%"

Yeah but that's at the coal face.

Meanwhile senior civil servants still get a day off for the Kings Birthday ( He died in 1936) and Empire Day.

ziggy23

Are there many Irish kids these days that don't make their communion? I actually don't want my son to (he's only 2 now so it'll be a few years anyway) but I'd hate the thought of him being picked on or left out:( I did end up getting him christened due to pressure from the family but I felt so uncomfortable by the whole thing.

gcgirl

ziggy23 wrote: »

Are there many Irish kids these days that don't make their communion? I actually don't want my son to (he's only 2 now so it'll be a few years anyway) but I'd hate the thought of him being picked on or left out:( I did end up getting him christened due to pressure from the family but I felt so uncomfortable by the whole thing.

My daughter did not feel isolated or left out, she is treated pretty well at the time, and to be honest it would be better if parents that don't have any religious convictions at all actually did not let their kid make it al la just for the day occasion or pressurised by family, No I find is a pretty good answer

Greentopia

philologos wrote: »

It isn't a private activity though. My faith and the faith of others if it is of any substance will become manifest. As a Christian, I'm meant to be living according to Christian principles, and if I live by Christian principles I will inevitably stand out from the rest of society.

Whatever 'stand out from the rest of society means'... "Christian principles" I assume you mean such things like- 'do unto others as they would do unto you', show kindness, love, respect charity and forgivness for your family friends, neighbours and strangers alike, to live in peace with others, and so on.

I'm an atheist (someone else who 'stands out from society' you could say), and yet I know inherently and from the example my parents and society has taught me that all these things are called just being a moral and decent human being. I don't need a god to tell me to behave in a decent and responsible manner or to be a law-abiding citizen, nor do I do so only because I fear the wrath of god for not following his laws. Same goes for my atheist/agnostic friends and ex's. Funny that.

philologos wrote: »

This has happened more simply than I think, mostly through God giving me opportunities to speak about Him.

I think you'll find that was purely your mouth acting on instruction of your brain...though of course you'll disagree.

philologos wrote: »

Most of the time where I've spoken about my faith has been when the topic arose first in conversation. I wouldn't be being myself if I kept that from people.

Where the topic arose....initiated by you, or people asking you to tell them about your beliefs completely out of the blue, when the topic was not brought up by them?

Because do you have any idea how annoying it is for those of us who are happy in our state of disbelief to have religious people asking personal questions about our beliefs or telling us about their faith unbidden? very annoying. And presumtuous. Just FYI.

And it's not as if no-one here has heard of the teachings of the bible or the Judeo-Christian god, it's impossible not to done so having had compulsory religious classes in school. If someone is interested they'll seek out religion for themselves. Having it foisted on them only puts more people off the subject.

philologos wrote: »

Free expressions and freedom of conscience and belief mean that there is a right to express ones beliefs freely in society. If you don't want to subscribe to them, that's your choice, but I don't believe anyone has a right to tell people not to speak and live according to their convictions.

Sure, and I have a right to tell you where to stick your bible if I have a mind to if I'm accosted by you on the street or if you knock on my door.
Not that I would put it quite like that if I spoke to you
Live by your convictions by all means but know that your 'rights' to preach to me stop when my right to privacy and the quiet enjoyment of my home begin. And also my reproductive rights as a woman but that's a whole nuther topic...

I don't think I should drag this thread any more OT into a discussion about religion so I'll leave it at that if you don't mind. It's your choice to reply of course but know that I won't be taking it any further here.

gcgirl

Greentopia wrote: »

philologos wrote: »

It isn't a private activity though. My faith and the faith of others if it is of any substance will become manifest. As a Christian, I'm meant to be living according to Christian principles, and if I live by Christian principles I will inevitably stand out from the rest of society.

Whatever 'stand out from the rest of society means'... "Christian principles" I assume you mean such things like- 'do unto others as they would do unto you', show kindness, love, respect charity and forgivness for your family friends, neighbours and strangers alike, to live in peace with others, and so on.

I'm an atheist (someone else who 'stands out from society' you could say), and yet I know inherently and from the example my parents and society has taught me that all these things are called just being a moral and decent human being. I don't need a god to tell me to behave in a decent and responsible manner or to be a law-abiding citizen, nor do I do so only because I fear the wrath of god for not following his laws. Same goes for my atheist/agnostic friends and ex's. Funny that.

philologos wrote: »

This has happened more simply than I think, mostly through God giving me opportunities to speak about Him.

I think you'll find that was purely your mouth acting on instruction of your brain...though of course you'll disagree.

philologos wrote: »

Most of the time where I've spoken about my faith has been when the topic arose first in conversation. I wouldn't be being myself if I kept that from people.

Where the topic arose....initiated by you, or people asking you to tell them about your beliefs completely out of the blue, when the topic was not brought up by them?

Because do you have any idea how annoying it is for those of us who are happy in our state of disbelief to have religious people asking personal questions about our beliefs or telling us about their faith unbidden? very annoying. And presumtuous. Just FYI.

And it's not as if no-one here has heard of the teachings of the bible or the Judeo-Christian god, it's impossible not to done so having had compulsory religious classes in school. If someone is interested they'll seek out religion for themselves. Having it foisted on them only puts more people off the subject.

philologos wrote: »

Free expressions and freedom of conscience and belief mean that there is a right to express ones beliefs freely in society. If you don't want to subscribe to them, that's your choice, but I don't believe anyone has a right to tell people not to speak and live according to their convictions.

Sure, and I have a right to tell you where to stick your bible if I have a mind to if I'm accosted by you on the street or if you knock on my door.
Not that I would put it quite like that if I spoke to you
Live by your convictions by all means but know that your 'rights' to preach to me stop when my right to privacy and the quiet enjoyment of my home begin. And also my reproductive rights as a woman but that's a whole nuther topic...

I don't think I should drag this thread any more OT into a discussion about religion so I'll leave it at that if you don't mind. It's your choice to reply of course but know that I won't be taking it any further here.

Some devote Catholics I know are possible the most unchristian people I know

KittyeeTrix

so, my daughter is making her confirmation the end of February. They will be wearing the school uniform and even though there is a "SW payment" for the clothes I will not be availing of it but will be paying for any clothes I buy for her myself.

Problem is that all the girls wear school jumpers and have done for years but now on the day of the confirmation the teacher wants them to wear cardigans.
my daughter is gonna try to borrow one as she is afraid to wear the jumper in case she gets given out to by the teacher. She was getting anxious when i said to her "Shur, wear the jumper to the church, what's your teacher gonna do?? Not let ya make it?? She replies, No, but she'll give out to me the next day!!!

My response was Well, that's grand......I'll pay for the cardigan and you can re-imburse me out of your few bob. Funny how she then decided that she could put up with the teacher giving out to her the next day for a few mins if it saves her 20-30e:D

Seriously though, is there not enough feckin hardship going on at the moment without this kind of nonsense.....Buying a cardigan specially for the day:(

Be cheaper to get a little penneys/dunnes outfit at this rate!!

Greentopia

ziggy23 wrote: »

Are there many Irish kids these days that don't make their communion? I actually don't want my son to (he's only 2 now so it'll be a few years anyway) but I'd hate the thought of him being picked on or left out:( I did end up getting him christened due to pressure from the family but I felt so uncomfortable by the whole thing.

Why not send you son to the local CoI school or Educate Together school if you have one nearby? why send him to a Catholic school if you don't want him to be brought up a Catholic?
I don't get this giving in to family pressure nonsense, he's your son, YOU (and your partner if you have one) get to make those decisions, no-one else.

You're not doing anyone any favours by not being true to yourself, least of all your son. Sorry if that sounds harsh, I just hate the enforced doctrination of kids into any religion. It should be the child's choice to decide what religion if any they want to adhere to when they grow up. I was sent to Catholic school and hated religion class. When I wasn't bored out of my brain I was being told off on more than one occasion for asking "difficult" questions about the bible and the Catholic faith that the teachers were unwilling or unable to answer.

ziggy23

gcgirl wrote: »

My daughter did not feel isolated or left out, she is treated pretty well at the time, and to be honest it would be better if parents that don't have any religious convictions at all actually did not let their kid make it al la just for the day occasion or pressurised by family, No I find is a pretty good answer

I wouldn't be into going to church myself or believe in god so yea I'd rather let my son decide himself when he's older if he believes in god etc.
And these days the kids only wear the gear once when I was a kid I was made wear my communion dress every Sunday for the next year:eek:

gcgirl

ziggy23 wrote: »

gcgirl wrote: »

My daughter did not feel isolated or left out, she is treated pretty well at the time, and to be honest it would be better if parents that don't have any religious convictions at all actually did not let their kid make it al la just for the day occasion or pressurised by family, No I find is a pretty good answer

I wouldn't be into going to church myself or believe in god so yea I'd rather let my son decide himself when he's older if he believes in god etc.
And these days the kids only wear the gear once when I was a kid I was made wear my communion dress every Sunday for the next year:eek:

Educate together is pretty good if your near one, the younger 2 are going there and it is pretty good emphasis on teaching kids, and the kids are on first name terms with their teachers.
I wore my communion dress once and that was it thank god not one for wearing dresses

cursai

What other payments are given out by the welfare officer does anybody know?
Are there payments for Christmas presents and such and how does one qualify for it.
I was listening to Newstalk the other day. Henry Mc Kean was talking to a lady who was talkin gabout her daughters communion and the payment she will be getting what struck me most was that she mentioned first that she was spending some of the money on an outfit for HERSELF.
Are Newstalk trying to annoy me or that just true to Henry McKeans form. Hes either a total numbskull or a sarcastic genius.
There must'nt be much proofing needed to claim the extra benefit if people are doing this. The cut back of the community welfare officers budget should tighten this abuse up a bit methinks.

gcgirl

cursai wrote: »

What other payments are given out by the welfare officer does anybody know?
Are there payments for Christmas presents and such and how does one qualify for it.
I was listening to Newstalk the other day. Henry Mc Kean was talking to a lady who was talkin gabout her daughters communion and the payment she will be getting what struck me most was that she mentioned first that she was spending some of the money on an outfit for HERSELF.
Are Newstalk trying to annoy me or that just true to Henry McKeans form. Hes either a total numbskull or a sarcastic genius.
There must'nt be much proofing needed to claim the extra benefit if people are doing this. The cut back of the community welfare officers budget should tighten this abuse up a bit methinks.

I just think he is trying to be the next paddy o Gorman they usually pick the most exaggerated story to put on the radio and no there is no payment for Xmas presents, plus the working poor can apply for some one off payments

philologos

Greentopia wrote: »

Whatever 'stand out from the rest of society means'... "Christian principles" I assume you mean such things like- 'do unto others as they would do unto you', show kindness, love, respect charity and forgivness for your family friends, neighbours and strangers alike, to live in peace with others, and so on.

Christian principles extend beyond common morality such as the things you listed. Christian principles also extend into how you lead your life - essentially, what I strive to do is live as God would want me to live on the basis of 1) what I can know of God's character through the Bible, 2) what I can know on the basis of Jesus' self sacrificial death for my sin on the cross.

Living on the basis of those two presuppositions has led me into disagreement with others, and it inevitably causes Christians to differ from non-Christians in society.

Greentopia wrote: »

I'm an atheist (someone else who 'stands out from society' you could say), and yet I know inherently and from the example my parents and society has taught me that all these things are called just being a moral and decent human being. I don't need a god to tell me to behave in a decent and responsible manner or to be a law-abiding citizen, nor do I do so only because I fear the wrath of god for not following his laws. Same goes for my atheist/agnostic friends and ex's. Funny that.

You don't think you need a God to do anything. The difference between me and you is that I think that reality wouldn't be the same without Him, or indeed, I don't believe that anything would exist at all without Him.

The very fact that you and I are here, as far as I'm concerned is because there is a God who created all things, you and I included as a result of the laws of the universe.

I don't believe I'm decent, I don't believe anyone else is. We've all done what is wrong at one point or another in our lives. Biblically, this is what sin is, living in rebellion of what is right according to God's just standard. In so far as we've done wrong, we're guilty of violating God's standard and as a result as far as I believe we deserve to be punished. According to Christian interpretation this is why God became flesh through Jesus, taught, lived, was crucified on the cross and rose again on the third day.

Think about it this way. If I murdered someone 15 years ago and got away with it and then conducted my life in an entirely 'good' manner, would I still be a 'good' person. Likewise, think about it this way, if I have done plenty of things which are wrong in my life, as has everybody, ultimately if I'm judged by God at the end of time. I'll be guilty as charged. Because I have accepted that this is the case, and have realised the amazing self sacrifice of Christ, I can be forgiven as can all mankind.

TL;DR - I don't believe we are good people, we need to be transformed by God's amazing love.

So do you need God to be moral? - I think the only reason you are moral is because God gave you a conscience (Romans 2) even if you don't recognise its maker.

Greentopia wrote: »

I think you'll find that was purely your mouth acting on instruction of your brain...though of course you'll disagree.

Of course I will, because my experience disagrees with you. I've seen incredible things happen when I've prayed about opportunities to tell my non-Christian colleagues and friends about Jesus. Out of the blue on a regular basis I'm finding that other people are initiating discussions about Him and His word in such a way that all I have to do is speak for Him when these discussions arise.

Greentopia wrote: »

Where the topic arose....initiated by you, or people asking you to tell them about your beliefs completely out of the blue, when the topic was not brought up by them?

I've not been told as of yet to stop speaking about my faith in Jesus. For the most part this is because I try to do so wisely and only when people are ready to do so. If people tell me that they don't want to talk about that anymore I'll happily move on to another topic.

It was during my time at university that I began to pick up the courage to talk to people about Christianity. I was on the committee of the campus' Christian Union for 3 years. Now I'm in London working as a software developer things are a little bit different but nonetheless I plan to be open about my faith if I'm asked about what I think about those kind of topics (One of my other passions in life is computing and computer science).

Greentopia wrote: »

Because do you have any idea how annoying it is for those of us who are happy in our state of disbelief to have religious people asking personal questions about our beliefs or telling us about their faith unbidden? very annoying. And presumtuous. Just FYI.

I generally haven't asked. People have asked me. Generally the first way that people find out I'm a Christian is when they ask me what I did over the weekend and I tell them about church. Or when they ask me what I did on a certain day and I went for Bible study with my small group. I guess I could keep these things from them, but I'd be lying wouldn't I?

Why is it so wrong to be myself or do I have to be a 'closeted' Christian now? :pac:

Greentopia wrote: »

And it's not as if no-one here has heard of the teachings of the bible or the Judeo-Christian god, it's impossible not to done so having had compulsory religious classes in school. If someone is interested they'll seek out religion for themselves. Having it foisted on them only puts more people off the subject.

To a certain extent I agree that people have been taught something about what the Bible says. Although, on discussing with some of my friends here in London about this they told me that they learned very little about Christianity in school, more deference was given to other faiths.

What I will say on the other hand is that people for the most part know extremely little about what the Bible says. I remember reading the Bible for the first time, I was blown away by how much I didn't know about God. It was incredible to read what I read, it opened up the world to me. I don't think many people have a good knowledge of the Bible in Ireland or the UK, and they don't care for the most part either. This is why opening up the topic in dialogue is interesting and I feel important.

I'm supportive of any means of religious expression in public. Society is and should be a market place of ideas. I like the way on the local high street I can talk with people of varying belief systems. Muslims doing dawah (evangelism) on the street, Mormons chatting with people, Hare Krishnas chatting with people, Jehovah's Witnesses and some preachers from black churches. It makes society far more rich in that we're able to talk about the big questions out in the street even if we think that the other is wrong. That's a major strength of Western civilisation.

Greentopia wrote: »

Sure, and I have a right to tell you where to stick your bible if I have a mind to if I'm accosted by you on the street or if you knock on my door.
Not that I would put it quite like that if I spoke to you
Live by your convictions by all means but know that your 'rights' to preach to me stop when my right to privacy and the quiet enjoyment of my home begin. And also my reproductive rights as a woman but that's a whole nuther topic...

Of course you have the right where to tell me and others to shove our Bibles :pac:

Greentopia wrote: »

I don't think I should drag this thread any more OT into a discussion about religion so I'll leave it at that if you don't mind. It's your choice to reply of course but know that I won't be taking it any further here.

Feel free to PM me if you want to say anything else to me.

gcgirl wrote: »

Some devote Catholics I know are possible the most unchristian people I know

I'm not really going to argue with you on that, because I'm sure it's true.

To put my flag to the mast, I'm more of an evangelical Christian persuasion. Having said that I know that there are many Roman Catholics who do express Christianity in a way that I could hope to emulate. In fact a friend of mine who was a Roman Catholic was a huge catalyst in helping me think more about Christianity at school. He stood out because of his faith and I wanted to find out why.

cursai

Greentopia wrote: »

I'm an atheist (someone else who 'stands out from society' you could say),

I dont think Atheists stand out anymore. Its old hat, just like religion itself. Maybe the SW will give out payments for a non secular party on communion day. Worth a shot. I'm going down now for my 6 nations beer payment. Come on SCOTLAND.

Stereomaniac

Very good response Philologos, and you make some great points. It was a pleasure to read.

philologos

Stereomaniac wrote: »

Very good response Philologos, and you make some great points. It was a pleasure to read.

It's a good discussion, but sometimes you think it would be best had over a pint rather than on a discussion forum like this :pac:

Seachmall

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

she could put up with the teacher giving out to her the next day

As far as I'm concerned the teacher has absolutely no right to give out to anyone for wearing anything at their own communion.

The teacher's authority does not extend out of the school and certainly not into a church. What someone wears to a communion is between them and God*, not some teacher.

Even putting aside the cost of buying a new cardigan the teacher is stepping out of line making such a request.



*God's existence is assumed for the purpose of the point.

KittyeeTrix

Seachmall wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned the teacher has absolutely no right to give out to anyone for wearing anything at their own communion.

The teacher's authority does not extend out of the school and certainly not into a church. What someone wears to a communion is between them and God*, not some teacher.

Even putting aside the cost of buying a new cardigan the teacher is stepping out of line making such a request.



*God's existence is assumed for the purpose of the point.

Well, she has 3 choices
1. Borrow one if she can
2. Buy one but pay for it herself
3. Be a cheeky bugger like her mom was at that age and turn up with the jumper on and 20e extra in her pocket.............

I think I know which one she will choose:D

SerialComplaint

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Meanwhile senior civil servants still get a day off for the Kings Birthday ( He died in 1936) and Empire Day.

No they don't.

LordSutch

cursai wrote: »

Maybe the SW will give out payments for a non secular party on communion day. Worth a shot. I'm going down now for my 6 nations beer payment. Come on SCOTLAND.

I think they're mostly Presbyterians )

Hotblack Desiato

Greentopia wrote: »

Why not send you son to the local CoI school or Educate Together school if you have one nearby? why send him to a Catholic school if you don't want him to be brought up a Catholic?

I remain to be convinced that, for atheist parents, CofI schools are any better than RC ones. That said, we just got confirmation of a place for our daughter in Sept in the CofI school and they're aware of our atheism.

Some of what I've heard about the more evangelical strands of Protestantism really freaks me out. But no doubt the RCC would freak me out a lot more than it does if I hadn't been brought up in its culture. (the extremist RCC types now coming to the fore like Ronan Mullen really do freak me out)

So basically we have a choice of which religious school to send our non-religious children to :mad: although we're in Dublin there's no ET within reach of us.

skregs

Some serious thank whoring in this thread

Mike 1972

Greentopia wrote: »

Why not send you son to the local CoI school or Educate Together school if you have one nearby? .

Did you just answer your own question ?

Many parts of the country dont have either.

UndercoverSpy

Deleted User wrote: »

€242 for a communion dress :eek:

This payment is also routinely claimed for pajamas/toiletries for going into/being in/having been in hospital. Just need a note from the hospital giving the date(s) of hospitalization. Doesn't matter duration.

opinion guy

skregs wrote: »

Some serious thank whoring in this thread

Its boards there is serious thankswhoring on every thread - you are here since 2005 you'd think you'd know that by now:rolleyes:

UndercoverSpy

ninja900 wrote: »

There is no legal entitlement to paternity leave, at all.

Even if you want to use an annual leave day to attend the birth of your child, the employer is legally permitted to refuse it if they choose.



Both people with infectious illnesses, and weak/immune compromised patients who could get very seriously ill from a nurse sneezing on them. This sort of distortion of the truth and exclusion of pertinent, but inconvenient, facts is par for the course with the Indo unfortunately.

It's well documented, in all hospitals that I am aware of, that nurses highest rate of un-certified sick leave is single Saturdays, followed by single Mondays for day duty, and Friday nights for night duty. Sundays (from midnight Saturday night) are paid at double time so recovery is startlingly quick.

What you will find is the phone lines to nursing management light up all day Fridays calling in sick, and relight Saturday evening reporting recovery and ability to work the double-time (or public holiday) shifts.

There is no distortion of the truth here, this is fact. Many hospitals now compile their figures monthly. The information is available under the FOI Act and is usually available to the hospital's internal website, it was on the HSE website too.

For years it was never addressed. In recent years (3-4), hospitals have centralized the "I'm sick.........cough, cough" call to colleagues on the employee's ward, by having the employee call Nursing Management. It worked for a year or so (documented drop in absenteeism), but then employees became immune to the embarrassment of feigning to a senior manager and levels rose again. Interviews with the employee on return are now the norm to try stamp out serial offenders. It is well known that there are significantly more out sick, than ARE sick.

When you see the figures, they also include other hospital employees and show the highest rate of sick leave generally goes like this
Porters (highest)
Catering Staff
Health Care Assistants
Clerical/Admin Staff
Nurses
Other Allied Health Professionals - e.g. Physios, Radiographers
Senior hospital management
Doctors (lowest)

someuser905

philologos wrote: »

Christian principles extend beyond common morality such as the things you listed. Christian principles also extend into how you lead your life - essentially, what I strive to do is live as God would want me to live on the basis of 1) what I can know of God's character through the Bible, 2) what I can know on the basis of Jesus' self sacrificial death for my sin on the cross.

Living on the basis of those two presuppositions has led me into disagreement with others, and it inevitably causes Christians to differ from non-Christians in society.



You don't think you need a God to do anything. The difference between me and you is that I think that reality wouldn't be the same without Him, or indeed, I don't believe that anything would exist at all without Him.

The very fact that you and I are here, as far as I'm concerned is because there is a God who created all things, you and I included as a result of the laws of the universe.

I don't believe I'm decent, I don't believe anyone else is. We've all done what is wrong at one point or another in our lives. Biblically, this is what sin is, living in rebellion of what is right according to God's just standard. In so far as we've done wrong, we're guilty of violating God's standard and as a result as far as I believe we deserve to be punished. According to Christian interpretation this is why God became flesh through Jesus, taught, lived, was crucified on the cross and rose again on the third day.

Think about it this way. If I murdered someone 15 years ago and got away with it and then conducted my life in an entirely 'good' manner, would I still be a 'good' person. Likewise, think about it this way, if I have done plenty of things which are wrong in my life, as has everybody, ultimately if I'm judged by God at the end of time. I'll be guilty as charged. Because I have accepted that this is the case, and have realised the amazing self sacrifice of Christ, I can be forgiven as can all mankind.

TL;DR - I don't believe we are good people, we need to be transformed by God's amazing love.

So do you need God to be moral? - I think the only reason you are moral is because God gave you a conscience (Romans 2) even if you don't recognise its maker.



Of course I will, because my experience disagrees with you. I've seen incredible things happen when I've prayed about opportunities to tell my non-Christian colleagues and friends about Jesus. Out of the blue on a regular basis I'm finding that other people are initiating discussions about Him and His word in such a way that all I have to do is speak for Him when these discussions arise.



I've not been told as of yet to stop speaking about my faith in Jesus. For the most part this is because I try to do so wisely and only when people are ready to do so. If people tell me that they don't want to talk about that anymore I'll happily move on to another topic.

It was during my time at university that I began to pick up the courage to talk to people about Christianity. I was on the committee of the campus' Christian Union for 3 years. Now I'm in London working as a software developer things are a little bit different but nonetheless I plan to be open about my faith if I'm asked about what I think about those kind of topics (One of my other passions in life is computing and computer science).



I generally haven't asked. People have asked me. Generally the first way that people find out I'm a Christian is when they ask me what I did over the weekend and I tell them about church. Or when they ask me what I did on a certain day and I went for Bible study with my small group. I guess I could keep these things from them, but I'd be lying wouldn't I?

Why is it so wrong to be myself or do I have to be a 'closeted' Christian now? :pac:



To a certain extent I agree that people have been taught something about what the Bible says. Although, on discussing with some of my friends here in London about this they told me that they learned very little about Christianity in school, more deference was given to other faiths.

What I will say on the other hand is that people for the most part know extremely little about what the Bible says. I remember reading the Bible for the first time, I was blown away by how much I didn't know about God. It was incredible to read what I read, it opened up the world to me. I don't think many people have a good knowledge of the Bible in Ireland or the UK, and they don't care for the most part either. This is why opening up the topic in dialogue is interesting and I feel important.

I'm supportive of any means of religious expression in public. Society is and should be a market place of ideas. I like the way on the local high street I can talk with people of varying belief systems. Muslims doing dawah (evangelism) on the street, Mormons chatting with people, Hare Krishnas chatting with people, Jehovah's Witnesses and some preachers from black churches. It makes society far more rich in that we're able to talk about the big questions out in the street even if we think that the other is wrong. That's a major strength of Western civilisation.



Of course you have the right where to tell me and others to shove our Bibles :pac:



Feel free to PM me if you want to say anything else to me.



I'm not really going to argue with you on that, because I'm sure it's true.

To put my flag to the mast, I'm more of an evangelical Christian persuasion. Having said that I know that there are many Roman Catholics who do express Christianity in a way that I could hope to emulate. In fact a friend of mine who was a Roman Catholic was a huge catalyst in helping me think more about Christianity at school. He stood out because of his faith and I wanted to find out why.

I reject that.

philologos

someuser905 wrote: »

I reject that.

And that's your liberty of course. We live in a market place of ideas. From my POV, mere rejection doesn't make it any less true. From your POV it seems that I'm just talking nonsense.