RDF Integration

KickstartHeart

I was just reading the Reserve section on military.ie. I read this part; " included in the plan, was the formation of an integrated reserve comprising 2,656 personnel that will be fully integrated with the PDF units. These integrated personnel will have a much more dedicated training regime, training alongside their PDF comrades, under the control of the PDF unit commander. This integration is currently in the process of being formed. The scheduled timeline will be constantly monitored by the Monitoring Group, to ensure the plan maintains momentum.", under the History section of the Reserve part of the site.

I am just wondering, is there future plans for this integration? I notice that integration was due to happen a few years back but from speaking to people in the RDF, there is no integration. What are the future plans for the RDF in relation operability, training and integration? Or generally usefulness? Is the Defence Forces still going to try and make an integration work and bridge that gap between professional soldier and someone who goes on a camp in the summer and does a few 'training nights' during the year? ...Generally, what is the story with the RDF and where is it going. And If you want to say 'they'l have it gone in a few years anyway' or anything like that, don't post. The idea of just getting rid of the countries whole reserve force is simply stupid, and not actually on the cards. So leave it out. I know that the RDF has a LOT of very capable, fit, and suitable people for much more challenging military service and training. Anybody think those kinds of people are going to get a chance to do anything more challenging in the future within the RDF?

ruserious

First off, the future of the RDF is in question.
Secondly, if it does survive (personally I think it will), it will be quite a while until it recovers from the lack or recruitment past few years.
The NSR is defacto integrated in the lower ranks.

OS119

KickstartHeart wrote: »

...Anybody think those kinds of people are going to get a chance to do anything more challenging in the future within the RDF?

no.

4 reasons all conflate to doom the RDF:

1) having Labour in the coalition means that there will not be any overseas deployments that challenge the PDF - if the PDF aren't challenged, they won't need to dip into their reserves.

2) there is absolutely no money whatsoever. the government and the PDF will take the view that if they didn't need the RDF when the government was awash with money, they certainly don't need it when they are skint.

3) because integration 'didn't work' - and yes, we all know it was shot at birth - politicians view the RDF as being broken or not fit for purpose. nothing in the immediate term is going to change that.

4) given that the PDF are going to face significant redundancies, there is no chance whatsoever that they are going to tell the government that 'yeah, sure, the RDF could do X, Y, or Z, and do it for far less than it costs to employ us'.

like others, i'm not sure the government has the balls to scrap the RDF in its totality - but i would not be surprised to see the NSR pretty much preserved, while the AR is 'reconfigured' to perhaps 1000 paper members, probably with no grat, no training time, no attending allowances, no role and no actual existance.

KickstartHeart

ruserious wrote: »

First off, the future of the RDF is in question.
.

Take a look at the DoD website. The minister has asked the chief of staff to draft potential plans for an army reorg that involves "streamlining" the army AND the RDF. I gather from that they're not particularly thinking about getting rid of it, rather trying sort it out. You could be right, but I'm fairly sure they're not actually thinking about getting rid of it. It would be a bit mad to do that. I'd imagine the Defence Forces has become quite path dependent with having a reserve!?

Thanks for the replies lads. More posts and opinions still welcome

ruserious

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Take a look at the DoD website. The minister has asked the chief of staff to draft potential plans for an army reorg that involves "streamlining" the army AND the RDF. I gather from that they're not particularly thinking about getting rid of it, rather trying sort it out. You could be right, but I'm fairly sure they're not actually thinking about getting rid of it. It would be a bit mad to do that. I'd imagine the Defence Forces has become quite path dependent with having a reserve!?

Thanks for the replies lads. More posts and opinions still welcome

I 100% agree with the bold which is why I later said in the post that I think the RDF will survive.
The government has not shown to date any reason why they would make a critical juncture relating to any institution, which the RDF is in a sense.
My own opinion is the AR will be cut to mirror PDF units and NSR as is.

Doctor14

KickstartHeart wrote: »

I am just wondering, is there future plans for this integration? I notice that integration was due to happen a few years back but from speaking to people in the RDF, there is no integration.

Integration happened in 2007 & 2008. For a million different reasons, it died a death with everyone sharing in the blame. Never really had a chance. Don't see it happening again.

xflyer

I know a couple of RDF people who have specialist skills and who work with the PDF, including the ARW. If there's a future for the RDF that will be the model. Some would be ex PDF, others directly recruited.

The days when you could sign up one week and stay until your first pair of boots were issued are long over. But the current RDF is not far enough removed from the old FCA.

There is need for an RDF of some sort. But the old model is broken and out of date. If it was ever to be properly utilised it would need extra money. Does anyone think that will ever happen?

KickstartHeart

ruserious wrote: »

My own opinion is the AR will be cut to mirror PDF units and NSR as is.

Wouldn't that be a good thing though? What would that mean for the likes of the people in it who have been extremely active, and have completed NCO's courses and the likes and are quite competent?

Doctor14 wrote: »

Integration happened in 2007 & 2008. For a million different reasons, it died a death with everyone sharing in the blame. Never really had a chance. Don't see it happening again.

Why did it go so wrong? I genuinely don't know.

xflyer wrote: »

I know a couple of RDF people who have specialist skills and who work with the PDF, including the ARW. If there's a future for the RDF that will be the model. Some would be ex PDF, others directly recruited.

The days when you could sign up one week and stay until your first pair of boots were issued are long over. But the current RDF is not far enough removed from the old FCA.

There is need for an RDF of some sort. But the old model is broken and out of date. If it was ever to be properly utilised it would need extra money. Does anyone think that will ever happen?

Yeah I have heard of a few people doing work like that. Do you think it could be utilised in a sense, as in in the probably not so near future, if the RDF gets back on its feat and maybe integrates successfully etc. Anybody see a potential future for RDF people being sent overseas alongside their army counterparts?

ruserious

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Wouldn't that be a good thing though? What would that mean for the likes of the people in it who have been extremely active, and have completed NCO's courses and the likes and are quite competent?

Yes it is, I never said it would be a negative.

Maoltuile

xflyer wrote: »

I know a couple of RDF people who have specialist skills and who work with the PDF, including the ARW.

I think I know one of the people involved, too.

If there's a future for the RDF that will be the model. Some would be ex PDF, others directly recruited.

The days when you could sign up one week and stay until your first pair of boots were issued are long over.

The separate existence of the First and Second-line reserves is nuts. And unfortunately, the days of buggering off when you get your uniform (and tick the box for the PDF interview) is still with us - one particular waste of space took one of the recruitment slots last year, did camp and then hasn't been since, without repercussion.

But the current RDF is not far enough removed from the old FCA.

There is need for an RDF of some sort. But the old model is broken and out of date. If it was ever to be properly utilised it would need extra money. Does anyone think that will ever happen?

Fire (literally by shooting, preferably) the useless 90% of Cadre, use the savings to get the Reserve up to a functioning level to start augmenting the PDF.

Maoltuile

OS119 wrote: »

no.

4 reasons all conflate to doom the RDF:

1) having Labour in the coalition means that there will not be any overseas deployments that challenge the PDF - if the PDF aren't challenged, they won't need to dip into their reserves.

Not so. There are plenty of UN missions, same as before. Unless you're imaging that we should become part of NATO?

2) there is absolutely no money whatsoever. the government and the PDF will take the view that if they didn't need the RDF when the government was awash with money, they certainly don't need it when they are skint.

I don't see the logic in this, at all. The RDF was pretty much explicitly an accountant's cost-saving measure to create a source of 'cheap' soldiers to augment the PDF (the re-org and integration make no other sense). The ongoing drama between the Garda and their own Reserve bears watching for guessing where the Government is going with this.

3) because integration 'didn't work' - and yes, we all know it was shot at birth - politicians view the RDF as being broken or not fit for purpose. nothing in the immediate term is going to change that.

Apart from the present need of the Gov to overcome long-entrenched special interests in making efficiencies. I have a feeling that this trumps any lobbying by the PDF, if the case is made and presented properly to the DOD.

4) given that the PDF are going to face significant redundancies, there is no chance whatsoever that they are going to tell the government that 'yeah, sure, the RDF could do X, Y, or Z, and do it for far less than it costs to employ us'.

Except that the government are no fools, and are likely aware of what's going on here. As I say, it's a changed climate and many previously unsurpassable obstacles no longer are.

like others, i'm not sure the government has the balls to scrap the RDF in its totality - but i would not be surprised to see the NSR pretty much preserved, while the AR is 'reconfigured' to perhaps 1000 paper members, probably with no grat, no training time, no attending allowances, no role and no actual existance.

I don't hold to that pessimistic view. I think the RDF opportunity is finally here to step up to the plate and deliver, and the PDF lobby has never been weaker.

KickstartHeart

ruserious wrote: »

Yes it is, I never said it would be a negative.

Yes, that's why I asked would it be a good thing or not, because you didn't say.



Thanks for the replies lads. The reorg of 2012, from what has been said about it so far on the DoD site, is for the army AND the army reserve. Any ideas what they might re-organise about the army reserve?

And can anyone answer my question as to why the integration of the reserves and the army didn't work?

ruserious

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Yes, that's why I asked would it be a good thing or not, because you didn't say.



Thanks for the replies lads. The reorg of 2012, from what has been said about it so far on the DoD site, is for the army AND the army reserve. Any ideas what they might re-organise about the army reserve?

And can anyone answer my question as to why the integration of the reserves and the army didn't work?

Cut down of the 'country units'. Mirror two brigade structure.

Didn't work because of vested interests.
PDF officer corps didn't want a reserve which would be NEEDED.
They like having ye in a situation which benefits them short term (cadre) but if shít hits the fan, drop ye like a hat.

The analogy of the devil holding a man by the neck over a hole which leads to hell just to pick an apple for him springs to mind.

KickstartHeart

ruserious wrote: »

Cut down of the 'country units'. Mirror two brigade structure.

Didn't work because of vested interests.
PDF officer corps didn't want a reserve which would be NEEDED.
They like having ye in a situation which benefits them short term (cadre) but if shít hits the fan, drop ye like a hat.

The analogy ?f the devil holding a man by the neck over a hole which leads to hell just to pick an apple for him springs to mind.

Isn't the RDF hugely dependent on those country units for its members though?

Maoltuile

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Isn't the RDF hugely dependent on those country units for its members though?

Yes. There's only so much of a recruiting pool, and there are very strong local and family ties to the RDF/FCÁ the length and breadth of the country.

Maoltuile

KickstartHeart wrote: »

And can anyone answer my question as to why the integration of the reserves and the army didn't work?

It was fundamentally an attempt to cynically siphon off the more committed members to provide a cheap source of soldiery, without the investment in resources that full integration (which is what should happen) would require.

KickstartHeart

Maoltuile wrote: »

It was fundamentally an attempt to cynically siphon off the more committed members to provide a cheap source of soldiery, without the investment in resources that full integration (which is what should happen) would require.

Im not sure if I know what you mean!?

Maoltuile

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Im not sure if I know what you mean!?

The creation of the "RDF" kept the existing FCÁ organisation untouched with little additional resources or purpose, apart from rationalising them to provide sources of manpower for the associated PDF units (20th and 21st Battalions were amalgamated to create the 62nd, which was the 'feeder' unit for the 2nd Bn's Integrated platoon, etc.).

galwaycyclist

Maoltuile wrote: »

The creation of the "RDF" kept the existing FCÁ organisation untouched with little additional resources or purpose, apart from rationalising them to provide sources of manpower for the associated PDF units (20th and 21st Battalions were amalgamated to create the 62nd, which was the 'feeder' unit for the 2nd Bn's Integrated platoon, etc.).

I would go further a local defence force (FCA) has a self evident mission. I am still not clear what the rdfs purpose is.

xflyer

I'm sorry the 'country units' need to go and that includes the Dublin/Cork/Galway units. Even my old regiment the 20th now 62nd. Pains me to say it. We need specialists probably attached to PDF units.

I remember my pal, RDF,I got a lift from him recently. He was on his way to some exercise with the PDF. I was in the car. I picked up his Kevlar helmet and commented on the weight of it as I put it on my head. He told me how difficult it was to get that helmet in spite of his position mostly because he was RDF.

A guy like him would be difficult to replace even within the PDF.

Those people are needed.

I hope that's recognised.

syklops

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Thanks for the replies lads. The reorg of 2012, from what has been said about it so far on the DoD site, is for the army AND the army reserve. Any ideas what they might re-organise about the army reserve?

I would imagine they will be looking for savings like all government departments at the moment. They will be using buzz words like streamlining masquerading as cuts.

KickstartHeart wrote: »

And can anyone answer my question as to why the integration of the reserves and the army didn't work?

There are a number of theories, and a number or contributing reasons. One is that the PDF didn't want the RDF integrated. It's also a bit like the current debate about interns taking jobs paid workers could do.

There was also a question mark over the general level of fitness in the RDF, which was understandable. The obvious thing was to bring in regular fitness training for the RDF but the regulations said only a qualified PT instructor could give PT classes, and the RDF basically didnt have any PT instructors, and no PDF PT instructors were made available. If the PDF had wanted the RDF integrated that could have been solved easily enough, but no decision was made and the RDF was told to try and get its fitness level up "as best you can", but with no access to training, gym equipment, etc.

In my opinion, they also did it at the wrong time. They tried to get more commitment from the RDF at a time when the country was at the greatest level of employment in 20 years. A lot of the driven, switched on members were in well paying jobs, so doing tactics on a Saturday is fine, but doing fitness tests on a Tuesday was out of the question.

So, the PDF didnt want it, there was no real political support, timing was poor, the new equipment wasn't issued properly(some units got twice the amount of PLCE, some got none), the list goes on and on.

OS119

syklops wrote: »

...So, the PDF didnt want it, there was no real political support, timing was poor, the new equipment wasn't issued properly(some units got twice the amount of PLCE, some got none), the list goes on and on.

while my understanding is that all the above is true, there is compelling evidence that many in the RDF who wanted to take part in the Integration project faced real hostility from within the RDF itself.

i've heard of people being completely blanked/abused at their units, to being 'required' by their CoC to turn up to both integrated activities and non-integrated activities (and therefore get grief at home/work and subsequently bin the integration project), to being refused mandated equipment/clothing by their parent RDF unit, or being issued the worst kit the unit could find - broken belt-kit, bergens, helmets etc...

the impression being given was that there were two issues, neither of them attractive: firstly that a significant proportion of the RDF CoC didn't want RDF people going off to the PDF, seeing a professional, motivated force and then coming back and seeing the traditional RDF CoC in their true colours, and secondly that those members of the RDF who could be thought of as 'hangovers' from the FCA were hostile to the idea that if the RDF could be radically improved, it might be used. two week paid drinking holidays for 45 yo, 20 stone corporals would be unlikely to survive in an organisation of fit, committed, trained soldiers for whom a four month tour in Chad was a distinct likelyhood.

some CoC's embraced it, but from what i've heard, they were a minority - and a small one.

KickstartHeart

OS119 wrote: »

while my understanding is that all the above is true, there is compelling evidence that many in the RDF who wanted to take part in the Integration project faced real hostility from within the RDF itself.

i've heard of people being completely blanked/abused at their units, to being 'required' by their CoC to turn up to both integrated activities and non-integrated activities (and therefore get grief at home/work and subsequently bin the integration project), to being refused mandated equipment/clothing by their parent RDF unit, or being issued the worst kit the unit could find - broken belt-kit, bergens, helmets etc...

the impression being given was that there were two issues, neither of them attractive: firstly that a significant proportion of the RDF CoC didn't want RDF people going off to the PDF, seeing a professional, motivated force and then coming back and seeing the traditional RDF CoC in their true colours, and secondly that those members of the RDF who could be thought of as 'hangovers' from the FCA were hostile to the idea that if the RDF could be radically improved, it might be used. two week paid drinking holidays for 45 yo, 20 stone corporals would be unlikely to survive in an organisation of fit, committed, trained soldiers for whom a four month tour in Chad was a distinct likelyhood.

some CoC's embraced it, but from what i've heard, they were a minority - and a small one.

syklops wrote: »

I would imagine they will be looking for savings like all government departments at the moment. They will be using buzz words like streamlining masquerading as cuts.



There are a number of theories, and a number or contributing reasons. One is that the PDF didn't want the RDF integrated. It's also a bit like the current debate about interns taking jobs paid workers could do.

There was also a question mark over the general level of fitness in the RDF, which was understandable. The obvious thing was to bring in regular fitness training for the RDF but the regulations said only a qualified PT instructor could give PT classes, and the RDF basically didnt have any PT instructors, and no PDF PT instructors were made available. If the PDF had wanted the RDF integrated that could have been solved easily enough, but no decision was made and the RDF was told to try and get its fitness level up "as best you can", but with no access to training, gym equipment, etc.

In my opinion, they also did it at the wrong time. They tried to get more commitment from the RDF at a time when the country was at the greatest level of employment in 20 years. A lot of the driven, switched on members were in well paying jobs, so doing tactics on a Saturday is fine, but doing fitness tests on a Tuesday was out of the question.

So, the PDF didnt want it, there was no real political support, timing was poor, the new equipment wasn't issued properly(some units got twice the amount of PLCE, some got none), the list goes on and on.

Interesting points. And is there a good future for the RDF so? Could any of these issues be rectified? Is the Defence Forces still going to try and make its Reserve Army actually useful? Or is it doomed to stay the way it is or just be done away with?

syklops

there is compelling evidence that many in the RDF who wanted to take part in the Integration project faced real hostility from within the RDF itself.

I didnt see a lot of hostility in the RDF itself, but instead more passive aggressive stuff, like courses not being announced,

... or being issued the worst kit the unit could find - broken belt-kit, bergens, helmets etc

Well I certainly saw that. I remember seeing the recruitment posters of the RDF guy in full PLCE when at the time we were still using the old pattern 58 stuff and it had not been maintained well at all. there was a few PLCE kits rumoured to be in stores but it was pooled, which, like the wet gear meant it was usually in rag order and the wrong size by the time you got it. If they had issued it, it probably would have lasted longer as people would look after their own one better than the pooled stuff.

I remember one guy going off on a course and the officer told him to beg borrow or steal some PLCE for it, and he was saying to me, he would happily steal some but there wasnt any to be found. Imagine going on a course with PDF with Pattern 58 webbing and everyone else has black berets and PLCE. Not great for morale.

syklops

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Interesting points. And is there a good future for the RDF so? Could any of these issues be rectified? Is the Defence Forces still going to try and make its Reserve Army actually useful? Or is it doomed to stay the way it is or just be done away with?

I suspect it is doomed to either stay the way it is, or get done away with. The recruitment ban has stopped fresh blood entering it. Some units tried to get some fresh blood in by discharging people who hadnt attended in a while to get permission to get some new people in. Unfortunately, they shot themselves in the foot, and all they managed to do was shrink the size of their units. A few more years of no recruitment and it will die off itself naturally.

Maoltuile

syklops wrote: »

Some units tried to get some fresh blood in by discharging people who hadnt attended in a while to get permission to get some new people in. Unfortunately, they shot themselves in the foot, and all they managed to do was shrink the size of their units. A few more years of no recruitment and it will die off itself naturally.

This, *this*, is something that Shatter should be pursued on. His reasoning for the pathetic level of recruiting allowed last year was that 'we shouldn't recruit if they can't do FTT'. Well, let's tabulate up the 'savings' from the reduction of numbers in the past year, and force him to re-allocate those mandays to allow recruitment.

RDFRA, where are you?

OS119

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Interesting points. And is there a good future for the RDF so? Could any of these issues be rectified? Is the Defence Forces still going to try and make its Reserve Army actually useful? Or is it doomed to stay the way it is or just be done away with?

i don't believe it can be significantly improved in the present circumstances - and i'm not talking about money.

the driver of improvement is neccessity - the RDF aren't neccessary, so whats the driver?

now, if you wanted real improvement, you have the minster anounce that in 18 months the RDF would provide a full battlegroup to ISAF for operations in Helmand province (or other high-intensity sh1thole of your choice) for 6 months, and that any member of the RDF who refused mobilisation would be instantly discharged. consolidate all the RDF units into single task units - Artillery, Logs, Signals, Infantry, Cav/Reece, Med Spt etc... and train the fcuk into them for a year (1 pde night a week, one single day a month, one full weekend a month, two weeks full-time trg a year and regular fitness and skill tests with failure to attend and pass resulting in discharge).

you wouldn't actually send them anywhere, but after a year of that you'd have got rid of the wasters, war-dodgers, walts and oxygen theives. you also probably end up recruiting a 'better class' of applicants - certainly the TA found a higher calibre of candidate applying once the TA started being used on a large scale. serious, talented, committed people are less likely to want to waste their time in an organisation they percieve as both being purposeless and infested with bluffers.

KickstartHeart

Well the RDF actually doesn't do anything. So ye're right. There is no reason why anyone would want to join unless they wanted to get into the actual army that gets used around the world and at home. Why aren't they given a role? Never mind helmand or anything unrealistic like that, how about bank runs? A course could be run for that for trained members. Once you have that course done, you could be able to do those duties. Giving the RDF an actual goal point to aim for (in this example providing trained disciplined personal to run armed guard duties on cash transits around the country) would surely increase standards, and motivation for members to put in effort!? I can imagine an NCO giving a class on platoon battle drills, and a member asking, sorry corporal, when will we need this, other than on exercise once every year? If the corporal turns around and says, well.. other than that... never. Why would people want to train and put in effort at all?

If the RDF could even get involved with duties like that, maybe then it could be taken further and they could be given better roles. Imagine a reserve where members could actually get the training they need and take part in overseas missions along with the army! Its not as impossible as people think. Would definitely save the state huge amounts of money having reservists that are actually useful. Imagine RDF personal even just working in oversea's camps, and getting to go out on patrols a few times while they're there. Thats a decent goal.

The RDFRA is the RDF equivalent to the PDF's representative body yeah?

Do they pressure for these sort of things? What do they actually do?

I'm sorry but to me it just seams that the reserves, with a bit of restructuring, effort, and resource re-allocation, could be something of great use to the Irish military. In simple terms, it could be considered a waste of money at the moment, but could easily be turned into something that could save huge amounts of money and be very very useful. Why is it that the idea of the RDF ever being made use of seams so far fetched to its members, no matter how much they would like to be used, or how capable they are of being used?

ruserious

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Well the RDF actually doesn't do anything. So ye're right. There is no reason why anyone would want to join unless they wanted to get into the actual army that gets used around the world and at home.

The NSR go on patrol with PDF so that's something.
Also many join out of pride of the country and wanting to contribute to the DF.

KickstartHeart

ruserious wrote: »

The NSR go on patrol with PDF so that's something.
Also many join out of pride of the country and wanting to contribute to the DF.

Sorry my mistake. I meant AR when I said RDF. My bad. Nothing I'm saying here is in relation to the NSR, they seam to be on the ball.

syklops

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Well the RDF actually doesn't do anything. So ye're right. There is no reason why anyone would want to join unless they wanted to get into the actual army that gets used around the world and at home. Why aren't they given a role? Never mind helmand or anything unrealistic like that, how about bank runs? A course could be run for that for trained members. Once you have that course done, you could be able to do those duties. Giving the RDF an actual goal point to aim for (in this example providing trained disciplined personal to run armed guard duties on cash transits around the country) would surely increase standards, and motivation for members to put in effort!? I can imagine an NCO giving a class on platoon battle drills, and a member asking, sorry corporal, when will we need this, other than on exercise once every year? If the corporal turns around and says, well.. other than that... never. Why would people want to train and put in effort at all?

If the RDF could even get involved with duties like that, maybe then it could be taken further and they could be given better roles. Imagine a reserve where members could actually get the training they need and take part in overseas missions along with the army! Its not as impossible as people think. Would definitely save the state huge amounts of money having reservists that are actually useful. Imagine RDF personal even just working in oversea's camps, and getting to go out on patrols a few times while they're there. Thats a decent goal.

The RDFRA is the RDF equivalent to the PDF's representative body yeah?

Do they pressure for these sort of things? What do they actually do?

I'm sorry but to me it just seams that the reserves, with a bit of restructuring, effort, and resource re-allocation, could be something of great use to the Irish military. In simple terms, it could be considered a waste of money at the moment, but could easily be turned into something that could save huge amounts of money and be very very useful. Why is it that the idea of the RDF ever being made use of seams so far fetched to its members, no matter how much they would like to be used, or how capable they are of being used?

Yeah its not going to happen because the PDF get an allowance for doing Cash in Transit. They would never allow that allowance to go to RDF members instead, because as they see it, if the RDF can do CIT there are other duties they could do for 'free', which could mean a reduction in funding to the Defence Forces, even a reduction in numbers. Turkeys wont vote for Christmas.

Turbine

syklops wrote: »

Yeah its not going to happen because the PDF get an allowance for doing Cash in Transit. They would never allow that allowance to go to RDF members instead, because as they see it, if the RDF can do CIT there are other duties they could do for 'free', which could mean a reduction in funding to the Defence Forces, even a reduction in numbers. Turkeys wont vote for Christmas.

This business of getting allowances just for doing your job needs to be done away with.

OS119

Turbine wrote: »

This business of getting allowances just for doing your job needs to be done away with.

while thats entirely true, thats a society wide problem, and not one that just effects the PDF. sadly however it seems deep rooted - an example that shocked me was on here, there was a vociferous debate a few years ago about whether the IG should sent a battalion battle group to Northern/Westerrn Afghanistan, and a PDF lad said he wouldn't go - and why you ask? well, because its a NATO job, and not a UN job, he wouldn't get a UN allowance.

nice.

Owryan

Turbine wrote: »

This business of getting allowances just for doing your job needs to be done away with.

Its an allowance to feed yourself and for the unsocial hours involved.

From personal experience you could be in barracks at 4am and not return till 8 or 9 that evening. The allowance just about covered the costs of feeding yourself for the day and it was nothing compared to what the gardai were getting.

As for letting the army reserve do CIT , i ve seen reservists do a no show for barrack guard too many times to run the risk of letting them do a CIT. unlike the pdf there is no comeback on them if they decide to stay in bed

Doctor14

syklops wrote: »

I didnt see a lot of hostility in the RDF itself, but instead more passive aggressive stuff, like courses not being announced

Saw far too much of it myself. Didn't go for it myself but a mate of mine who did got no end of abuse. Got a major talking to to make him withdraw his application, and when he refused he got completely blanked by the higher ups. Got so bad that he ended up being the only one in the unit to go for it - others didn't want the hassle. RDFRA did nothing. PDF unit got involved and tried to get him to make a complaint. In the end he got into the PDF full time (the PDF unit went out of its way to help him get in) and the issue petered out.
Heard of it happening right across the Battalion to a good few people. Then the whole thing got cancelled and those who had stuck it out against all the abuse were thrown to the wolves. We lost a lot of good people over it. And I don't think any future Integration will work as people in my battalion will be very reluctant to get involved.

Maoltuile

Owryan wrote: »

I've seen reservists do a no show for barrack guard too many times to run the risk of letting them do a CIT. unlike the pdf there is no comeback on them if they decide to stay in bed

Here we're in complete agreement, PDF and RDF. The little bastards should be nailed to the wall for being AWOL.

marketty

Turbine wrote: »

This business of getting allowances just for doing your job needs to be done away with.

So does this business of getting people to do other peoples jobs for free.
After tax+levies these allowances are very small, a private would hardly notice the extra money in his payslip unless he got a few escorts/guards done in the month to add up to something.
I doubt the army wants the reserve doing Jobbridge when so many privates and corporals with little prospect of promotion and limited overseas opportunities are dependant on that measly couple of quid they get for dutie to supplement their wages..
Sadly despite the HUGE reforms and efficiencies by both PDF and RDF the government will just keep chipping away at them with cuts because they are an easy target. And the harsh reality is the PDF will hang the RDF out to dry when it gets bad because at the end of the day they soldier for a living and have to protect their incomes as much as they can, without having the weaponry of unions and strikes that the rest of the public sector has at its disposal

galwaycyclist

OS119 wrote: »

while my understanding is that all the above is true, there is compelling evidence that many in the RDF who wanted to take part in the Integration project faced real hostility from within the RDF itself.

It is entirely natural for the RDF to view the "integration" proposals with skepticism. This is not the first time the PDF have tried to "integrate" the 2nd line reserve. It happened previously with FCA units attached to units of the permanent garrison. According to those who went through it (who I served with) it was a farce. The reservists basically ended up getting used as barracks dogsbodies.

OS119 wrote: »

i've heard of people being completely blanked/abused at their units, to being 'required' by their CoC to turn up to both integrated activities and non-integrated activities (and therefore get grief at home/work and subsequently bin the integration project), to being refused mandated equipment/clothing by their parent RDF unit, or being issued the worst kit the unit could find - broken belt-kit, bergens, helmets etc...

Whoa back up here a bit. Lets put ourselves in the shoes of any decent RDF commander. This "integrated" concept is only of benefit to the parent RDF unit if the personel involved are coming back and passing on their knowledge (if the PDF way of doing things is deemed relevant ). If integration means the RDF having to carry extra mouths to feed on the books but no come back from the "integrated" resources then whats in it for the RDF? If someone has joined the RDF then in my view their primary duty is to the RDF. If that person wants to play with the PDF - but not contribute to their parent unit - then my instinctive reaction would be to tell them to get lost - go and join the PDF if thats what you're into.

galwaycyclist

syklops wrote: »

There are a number of theories, and a number or contributing reasons. One is that the PDF didn't want the RDF integrated. It's also a bit like the current debate about interns taking jobs paid workers could do.

There was also a question mark over the general level of fitness in the RDF, which was understandable. The obvious thing was to bring in regular fitness training for the RDF but the regulations said only a qualified PT instructor could give PT classes, and the RDF basically didnt have any PT instructors, and no PDF PT instructors were made available. If the PDF had wanted the RDF integrated that could have been solved easily enough, but no decision was made and the RDF was told to try and get its fitness level up "as best you can", but with no access to training, gym equipment, etc.

Are you really telling us that you believe among all the professional Engineers, Scientists, Teachers, Nurses, Drivers, Managers, Computer Technicians, Supervisors, Drivers, Mechanics etc etc etc in the FCA - that there were no professional fitness instructors? Was the problem the resource allocation within the PDF? Or a PDF refusal to recognise the resources organic to the FCA?

Also, at the risk of pointing out the obvious, if the troops are being exercised on a reasonably regular basis they won't be long getting themselves fit. Its called "incentive".

syklops wrote: »

In my opinion, they also did it at the wrong time. They tried to get more commitment from the RDF at a time when the country was at the greatest level of employment in 20 years. A lot of the driven, switched on members were in well paying jobs, so doing tactics on a Saturday is fine, but doing fitness tests on a Tuesday was out of the question.

So, the PDF didnt want it, there was no real political support, timing was poor, the new equipment wasn't issued properly(some units got twice the amount of PLCE, some got none), the list goes on and on.

You are partially correct however the real problem was the absence of any state incentive for employers to have members of the FCA/RDF on their books. Allied to this is a total absence of any legal protection for FCA/RDF members who wanted to take time for training/camps etc. This was already a problem for the FCA the failure to address this a part of the proposed re-org meant the integrated concept was fatally flawed anyway. It also meant that the FCA was already hamstrung in developing its strongest members as resources for the organisation. There was no point blaming the FCA for that or saying that the FCAs weaknesses would be remedied by a "re-org" that did not address this point.

syklops

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Are you really telling us that you believe among all the professional Engineers, Scientists, Teachers, Nurses, Drivers, Managers, Computer Technicians, Supervisors, Drivers, Mechanics etc etc etc in the FCA - that there were no professional fitness instructors? Was the problem the resource allocation within the PDF? Or a PDF refusal to recognise the resources organic to the FCA?

In my unit there was a professional fitness instructor, but his qualification wasn't recognised by the PDF. So while he could instruct us out side of the barracks(as in out side of RDF time) he couldn't do so during RDF time. That alone frustrated people.

Also, at the risk of pointing out the obvious, if the troops are being exercised on a reasonably regular basis they won't be long getting themselves fit. Its called "incentive".

Define 'troops being exercised'? Foot drill on the square for an hour a night is not going to get you 'fit' in the military sense.

galwaycyclist

syklops wrote: »

Define 'troops being exercised'? Foot drill on the square for an hour a night is not going to get you 'fit' in the military sense.

Uh no to my mind the phrase exercised involves terms like "Platoon in Attack", "Company in Defence", "Battalion in Advance" etc

syklops

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Uh no to my mind the phrase exercised involves terms like "Platoon in Attack", "Company in Defence", "Battalion in Advance" etc

Ok, now define regular basis.

Thinking back, I dont think we got as much as one manday per month. It _might_ have been once every 6 weeks or so. Maybe someone else could give their experiences/memories?

In the Autumn/Winter season so September to December, so ~16 weeks, we would have a day for the ARP, a day of Tactics, a day for gun work(I was in Artillery) and maybe some other day. So I suppose that could be one day a month, but to be honest i don't think it was that often.

KickstartHeart

So are RDF personel going to get job protection? Has it ever been proposed?

And what do the RDFRA do?

Turbine

marketty wrote: »

So does this business of getting people to do other peoples jobs for free.
After tax+levies these allowances are very small, a private would hardly notice the extra money in his payslip unless he got a few escorts/guards done in the month to add up to something.
I doubt the army wants the reserve doing Jobbridge when so many privates and corporals with little prospect of promotion and limited overseas opportunities are dependant on that measly couple of quid they get for dutie to supplement their wages..
Sadly despite the HUGE reforms and efficiencies by both PDF and RDF the government will just keep chipping away at them with cuts because they are an easy target. And the harsh reality is the PDF will hang the RDF out to dry when it gets bad because at the end of the day they soldier for a living and have to protect their incomes as much as they can, without having the weaponry of unions and strikes that the rest of the public sector has at its disposal

The RDF aren't doing the PDF's job, nevermind doing it for nothing. Even if there was a radical shake-up of the RDF and full integration with the PDF, its still a part-time role and there will still be a need for the PDF.

But surely where the RDF could be used is in situations where they could provide support to the PDF in order to reduce the need for overtime and extra allowances? You obviously won't agree with that going by your post above, but at a time when the government are trying to drive efficiencies in the Defence Forces it makes sense...

syklops

KickstartHeart wrote: »

So are RDF personel going to get job protection?

Doubtful. There is no political will for change.

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Has it ever been proposed?

Discussed, at length. I don't know if ever seriously.

KickstartHeart wrote: »

And what do the RDFRA do?

They're kind of like a union.

marketty

Turbine wrote: »

The RDF aren't doing the PDF's job, nevermind doing it for nothing. Even if there was a radical shake-up of the RDF and full integration with the PDF, its still a part-time role and there will still be a need for the PDF.

But surely where the RDF could be used is in situations where they could provide support to the PDF in order to reduce the need for overtime and extra allowances? You obviously won't agree with that going by your post above, but at a time when the government are trying to drive efficiencies in the Defence Forces it makes sense...

Well there's no overtime in the PDF, just allowances.
I'm not anti RDF by the way, did my time there and have a lot of respect for those who take their service in it seriously. I would much rather see the RDF put to good use than see it disbanded, I don't want my post to come across as an attack, I'm just being realistic about how many in the PDF feel.
What sort of situations are you suggesting they be used for?
If there are areas where we can justifiably say the PDF is undermanned and those gaps could be filled by RDF that's all well and good, but the PDF will just see that as a way of filling up vacancies that should be going to the full time guys.
One scenario I can see is if the PDF had a lot more (2-3 times as many) people overseas at any one time, RDF personnel could take on the vacant barrack duties etc.
Of course that requires that a lot of RDF personnel be available on a temporary full time basis, but as mentioned they have no legal protection or formal arrangements with employers in this regard. Unfortunately I can't see the government taking any interest in addressing this

Morpheus

marketty wrote: »

I doubt the army wants the reserve doing Jobbridge when so many privates and corporals with little prospect of promotion and limited overseas opportunities are dependant on that measly couple of quid they get for dutie to supplement their wages.

The govt enforced upper ceiling on total troop numbers that can be deployed overseas doesn't help either, that could be radically increased if the RDF was an integral component of the DF much like the TA is in england... but there i go again... apologies... i seem to be talking sense....

OS119

galwaycyclist wrote: »

...If that person wants to play with the PDF - but not contribute to their parent unit - then my instinctive reaction would be to tell them to get lost - go and join the PDF if thats what you're into.

now, i may be a bluff old traditionalist, but was fairly sure there was something about 'doing what the fcuk you are told' within the military, as well as this tiny little thing about the RDF existing to further the defence capability of the Republic of Ireland - rather to massage the ego of people who believe that the ease and convenience of their administrative lives is more important than the defence policy of the elected government of the day.

but thats just me...

galwaycyclist

OS119 wrote: »

now, i may be a bluff old traditionalist, but was fairly sure there was something about 'doing what the fcuk you are told' within the military, as well as this tiny little thing about the RDF existing to further the defence capability of the Republic of Ireland - rather to massage the ego of people who believe that the ease and convenience of their administrative lives is more important than the defence policy of the elected government of the day.

but thats just me...

It all depends on wether you think a more effective and cohesive RDF does more to further the national defence capability (my position) or wether you think the PDF cherry picking personel at the expense of RDF operational efficiency furthers that capability (your apparent position). If you want egos massaged, then in my view, the current PDF is pointless as a military force unless it is back up by a MUCH larger and internally coherent reserve/militia. It is my view that in terms of national defence "capacity" the PDF should exist to support the reserve not the other way around.


Questions?

OS119

galwaycyclist wrote: »

It all depends on wether you think a more effective and cohesive RDF does more to further the national defence capability (my position) or wether you think the PDF cherry picking personel at the expense of RDF operational efficiency furthers that capability (your apparent position). If you want egos massaged, then in my view, the current PDF is pointless as a military force unless it is back up by a MUCH larger and internally coherent reserve/militia. It is my view that in terms of national defence "capacity" the PDF should exist to support the reserve not the other way around.

its a topic for discussion and dissent in the mess, and perhaps even a letter to the Brigade Commander, it is not however a matter for debate or obviscation by Coy Cdrs or CQMS's upon reciept of a written order from the Chief of Staff.

galwaycyclist

OS119 wrote: »

its a topic for discussion and dissent in the mess, and perhaps even a letter to the Brigade Commander, it is not however a matter for debate or obviscation by Coy Cdrs or CQMS's upon reciept of a written order from the Chief of Staff.

I exist several levels below such exalted heights. And if you read my posts, in response to others publicly attacking their commanding officers, I have merely extrapolated what my opinion would be if I found myself in such authority. I stand over my analysis.