RDF Integration

Turbine

marketty wrote: »

If there are areas where we can justifiably say the PDF is undermanned and those gaps could be filled by RDF that's all well and good, but the PDF will just see that as a way of filling up vacancies that should be going to the full time guys.

Well as long as the PDF think that, then the RDF will never be utilised in any meaningful way.

marketty wrote: »

Well there's no overtime in the PDF, just allowances.
I'm not anti RDF by the way, did my time there and have a lot of respect for those who take their service in it seriously. I would much rather see the RDF put to good use than see it disbanded, I don't want my post to come across as an attack, I'm just being realistic about how many in the PDF feel.
What sort of situations are you suggesting they be used for?
One scenario I can see is if the PDF had a lot more (2-3 times as many) people overseas at any one time, RDF personnel could take on the vacant barrack duties etc.
Of course that requires that a lot of RDF personnel be available on a temporary full time basis, but as mentioned they have no legal protection or formal arrangements with employers in this regard. Unfortunately I can't see the government taking any interest in addressing this

Apart from barrack duties and expanding overseas numbers, they could be used more for natural disaster relief. Its a bit ridiculous when there are floods, forest fires etc. that PDF are transported to a particular area from other parts of the country to help out the local PDF units when there are local RDF units ready to help, but end up completely ignored.

OS119

galwaycyclist wrote: »

I stand over my analysis.

i fear then you have a pretty poor understanding of the role of Officers and SNCO's within the Defence Forces. the very sad thing is that its probably an understanding of the role of Officers and SNCO's that you've been given by some very sub-standard individuals.

Bullying - for that is what it is - is not acceptable, it is certainly not acceptable as way for poor Officers and SNCO's to frustrate the written orders of those senior officers set above them.

it is also called Sedition and Mutiny - in the US it is resolved with three pieces of equipment: a wall, a blindfold and 62grams of 5.56mm.

marketty

Turbine wrote: »

Well as long as the PDF think that, then the RDF will never be utilised in any meaningful way.

I agree however if the PDF feel that they are as busy as they can manage and being reasonably rewarded for it in terms of promotion prospects, pay and conditions then I would imagine they'd be open to the idea. As things stand and this goes for many in the public sector they are being cut away at all the time and therefore are understandably defensive and trying to justify their existence.
I'm not being smart but imagine the reaction if part time volunteer teachers and nurses started turning up in schools and hospitals the full timers would do their nut.
I am stretching the comparison there I know, but look at how openly hostile the gardai were to the introduction of their reserve. Thankfully I think the army isn't quite that bad.

Turbine wrote: »

Apart from barrack duties and expanding overseas numbers, they could be used more for natural disaster relief. Its a bit ridiculous when there are floods, forest fires etc. that PDF are transported to a particular area from other parts of the country to help out the local PDF units when there are local RDF units ready to help, but end up completely ignored.

I agree 100% here, but this situation could prove to be a PR disaster for the reserve if the 'numbers called up' versus 'number who turned up' were made public, we both know SOME wasters who like playing soldier when weapons are involved wouldn't show up to fill sandbags. There has to be consequences for that sort of thing, but then again if people can't get out of work they can't mobilise so we're back to that again

marketty

OS119 wrote: »

it is also called Sedition and Mutiny - in the US it is resolved with three pieces of equipment: a wall, a blindfold and 62grams of 5.56mm.

Jesus over dramatic much?

OS119

marketty wrote: »

Jesus over dramatic much?

you have other descriptions of actions by officers and NCO's carried out to interfere with the lawful orders of their superiors?

please, enlighten me...

marketty

It was the execution by firing squad rather than the definition of mutiny I was taking issue with.
I doubt the US or anyone else would execute officers for making a balls of reservist integration

OS119

marketty wrote: »

...I doubt the US or anyone else would execute officers for making a balls of reservist integration

some made a balls of it, some very deliberately sought to undermine the written, lawful orders of their superior Officers.

mutiny and sedition don't just apply to 'serious' orders, they apply to all orders - members of the defence forces do not get to cherry-pick which orders are serious, and therefore have to be obeyed, and which orders are merely requests that can be ignored if they are inconvenient.

members of the RDF should be absolutely clear - orders relating to the training of members of the RDF are as compulsory as orders relating to PDF foot patrols in Chad, or orders requiring a battalion attack on an foreign aggressor on Irish territory. orders are orders, you carry them out to the letter, and to the spirit, or you leave. if you get caught, you get punished - harshly.

Morpheus

I agree 100% here, but this situation could prove to be a PR disaster for the reserve if the 'numbers called up' versus 'number who turned up' were made public, we both know SOME wasters who like playing soldier when weapons are involved wouldn't show up to fill sandbags. There has to be consequences for that sort of thing, but then again if people can't get out of work they can't mobilise so we're back to that again

I dont think it would be a bad thing, on the contrary i think it would show up the govt's cack handed approach to maintaining a viable reserve for what it is... they are dealing with a component of our national defensive capability with kid gloves and prefer to let it limp along and get wheeled out once a year on o connell street.... when in reality they should be augmenting and bolstering the PDF with the RDF, they should have employment protection and should be a nationwide effort to encourage employers to hire RDF personnel as well as ramping up the training, fitness requirements and capablities of what is a very cheap way of increasing numbers of troops on short notice. It shouldnt be seen as a possible replacement for some elements of the PDF but as a viable force multiplier for the PDF.... maybe maintain a 3 brigade structure with 2 full time brigades and 1 RDF brigade could have been a good idea....

members of the RDF should be absolutely clear - orders relating to the training of members of the RDF are as compulsory as orders relating to PDF foot patrols in Chad, or orders requiring a battalion attack on an foreign aggressor on Irish territory. orders are orders, you carry them out to the letter, and to the spirit, or you leave. if you get caught, you get punished - harshly.

and therein lies one of the organisations main problems.... when you sign up, you agree to train every thurs/tues/wed and possibly 1 weekend a month, whether its shyte training or good or footdrill or running around cemetary hill in the middle of summer breathing through your ar$ehole and trying use a SINCGARS with peltors or freezing your a$$ off in an OP at 4am on a november night etc... you AGREE TO FOLLOW ORDERS.... you agree to be available when possible and the exception is that you are away the odd time... instead of the current convention of turning up when trainings good craic and if something shyte is coming up, then you dont bother your ar$e...

People studying on a training night whilst going on the beer all weekend instead of sacraficing two hours of beers at weekend to attend training... I cannot stand over the excuses people are using at the minute, it makes my blood boil to see others in the same situation MAKING the effort to be there and keep the units training momentum.

marketty

Morphéus wrote: »

I dont think it would be a bad thing, on the contrary i think it would show up the govt's cack handed approach to maintaining a viable reserve for what it is... they are dealing with a component of our national defensive capability with kid gloves and prefer to let it limp along and get wheeled out once a year on o connell street.... when in reality they should be augmenting and bolstering the PDF with the RDF, they should have employment protection and should be a nationwide effort to encourage employers to hire RDF personnel as well as ramping up the training, fitness requirements and capablities of what is a very cheap way of increasing numbers of troops on short notice. It shouldnt be seen as a possible replacement for some elements of the PDF but as a viable force multiplier for the PDF.... maybe maintain a 3 brigade structure with 2 full time brigades and 1 RDF brigade could have been a good idea....

Couldn't agree more

Maoltuile

Morphéus wrote: »

maybe maintain a 3 brigade structure with 2 full time brigades and 1 RDF brigade could have been a good idea....

+1 idea.

And stick proper go-getting career officers in the Brigade HQ, rather than the "slow boat to retirement" types (both Reserve and Permanent) that the RDF is largely stuck with right now.

Whatever about other ranks, officers who can't/won't do the job in the new Brigade should start getting ****-canned on the spot (there was a famous clear-out of a US National Guard unit at the start of the first Gulf War).

Poccington

syklops wrote: »

Yeah its not going to happen because the PDF get an allowance for doing Cash in Transit. They would never allow that allowance to go to RDF members instead, because as they see it, if the RDF can do CIT there are other duties they could do for 'free', which could mean a reduction in funding to the Defence Forces, even a reduction in numbers. Turkeys wont vote for Christmas.

We don't get an "allowance" for CiT. We get sub, which covers the cost of troops having to buy all their own food while on CiT, since they're not rationed like normal personnel on duty. Trust me, lads aren't so desperate to hang onto sub, which is **** all, that they want to keep CiT's.

They do CiT's because they're told to do them. Nothing more or less.

OS119 wrote: »

while thats entirely true, thats a society wide problem, and not one that just effects the PDF. sadly however it seems deep rooted - an example that shocked me was on here, there was a vociferous debate a few years ago about whether the IG should sent a battalion battle group to Northern/Westerrn Afghanistan, and a PDF lad said he wouldn't go - and why you ask? well, because its a NATO job, and not a UN job, he wouldn't get a UN allowance.

nice.

Well that's the joy of the interweb really, people talk bollocks on it.

The current DF members serving in A'Stan recieve the exact same Overseas Allowance as any of the DF members currently serving in the Leb.

Morphéus wrote: »

maybe maintain a 3 brigade structure with 2 full time brigades and 1 RDF brigade could have been a good idea....

1 RDF Bde could be viable but you'd still end up with 1 Bde split across a two Bde area.

RDF Sub Unit's in PDF Unit's are the way forward, IMO. With proper employment protection in place, ditching of the "Lead Bde" concept when it comes to Overseas and switch to whole Unit's being deployed together, which would of course mean, their RDF Sub Unit goes along too.

Integrate until there's no more, or as little as possible, "Us and them" attitude.

By the way, any Officer or NCO's who deliberately worked against, bullied troops and undermined attempts at making integration work, should've been up on charges. ****ing disgraceful carry on, and empire protection of the highest order. They have no place in an organisation looking to develop it's capabilites and turn itself into a viable option for the PDF and DoD to use.

KickstartHeart

Poccington wrote: »

We don't get an "allowance" for CiT. We get sub, which covers the cost of troops having to buy all their own food while on CiT, since they're not rationed like normal personnel on duty. Trust me, lads aren't so desperate to hang onto sub, which is **** all, that they want to keep CiT's.

They do CiT's because they're told to do them. Nothing more or less.



Well that's the joy of the interweb really, people talk bollocks on it.

The current DF members serving in A'Stan recieve the exact same Overseas Allowance as any of the DF members currently serving in the Leb.



1 RDF Bde could be viable but you'd still end up with 1 Bde split across a two Bde area.

RDF Sub Unit's in PDF Unit's are the way forward, IMO. With proper employment protection in place, ditching of the "Lead Bde" concept when it comes to Overseas and switch to whole Unit's being deployed together, which would of course mean, their RDF Sub Unit goes along too.

Integrate until there's no more, or as little as possible, "Us and them" attitude.

By the way, any Officer or NCO's who deliberately worked against, bullied troops and undermined attempts at making integration work, should've been up on charges. ****ing disgraceful carry on, and empire protection of the highest order. They have no place in an organisation looking to develop it's capabilites and turn itself into a viable option for the PDF and DoD to use.

Do you as an actual soldier think that what you reckon should happen with the RDF could actually happen? The minister in the publication on the DoD site about the re-org said that the Army Reserve AND the Army will be reorganized. You think they might recognize what you've suggested or something similar when they're at the drawing board?

Morpheus

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Do you as an actual soldier think that what you reckon should happen with the RDF could actually happen? The minister in the publication on the DoD site about the re-org said that the Army Reserve AND the Army will be reorganized. You think they might recognize what you've suggested or something similar when they're at the drawing board?

In fairness... there arent THAT many options open to the army about what to do with the reserve...

1. Disband the whole organization - hope this doesn't happen
2. Integrate an RDF company with a PDF Bn
3. Reduce and centralize existing units - eg for infantry in the East that could be... 67, 62 and 65 Bn's become something like 60Bn RDF available to augment all PDF infantry Bn's in the east and train in one location e.g. Gormo.
4. Have a look at other similar reserve forces in other countries and follow an existing model

Whatever is chosen, if they really want a willing and able and well trained deployable RDF standards will have to go through the ceiling ACROSS the RDF Board AND it will require SERIOUS employee protection legislation and actual repercussions for repeated non attendance to training nights and annual training.

Poccington

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Do you as an actual soldier think that what you reckon should happen with the RDF could actually happen? The minister in the publication on the DoD site about the re-org said that the Army Reserve AND the Army will be reorganized. You think they might recognize what you've suggested or something similar when they're at the drawing board?

Well, I don't post on here as a soldier.

As Morph has said, what to do with the RDF isn't a question that can be dodged forever. They will, eventually, have to deal with it.

I'd like for something like that to happen, whether people far higher up the chain think that way or not, is a whole other ball game. However, I don't see it being disbanded. Merely a case of it going through another re-org... How it's implemented and executed, is vital.

westcoastboy

The integrated section, occurred in early 2007.Jan and was dissolved by September ish that year...
When I did it around 10 of us went off the the PDF, company and were trained by a CQMS...We did a lot of running and time in the gym..I was knackered..we ran in Phoenix park..it was part of building us up to take the IT 2000' S...army fittness tests..
We were issued nearly the same gear as the PDF Soldiers...
Got paid also...
Went to a range of lecturers
and learnt comms, first aid etc..pity the rdf officers were against it...

The whole of the RDF shouldhave been like that...
Rdf great idea, piss poor management.
.last Thursdays Indo leaked that the VFM Report was going to take units out of the countryside..and reduce cadre staff from 250 to 50..

At the end of the day, the Garda Reserve concept is about helping your community whether you like it or not..it gives somethiing back...at lot would look at the RDF and say well whats its point..maybe..IMHO