Would you prefer to speak Irish?

Pacifist Pigeon

LordSutch wrote: »

Would be nice if you had a third option "Native English speaker with French, German, or 'other' as second language".

Maybe I dont want to speak Irish at all? but you have closed off that option, (so I can't vote).

Would be even nicer if you had "Native English speaker with Chinese/Japanese as second language".

arybvtcw0eolkf

mikemac1 wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking Makikomi, just an army question

I read somewhere there is a battalion in Galway and all commands and their daily business is done through Irish

Seems fairly cool
Is that true?

Yup, thats true to an extent.

All units in the defence forces use Irish for the likes of arm's drill, foot drill (parade ground stuff).

And Irish language course's are available to all units, but they're usually small classes and its hard to get released from your unit for a course (lots more detail I won't go into).

An Chéad Chathlán Coisithe, The 1st Infantry Battalion are based in Renmore, Co.Galway.. Originally recruitment was exclusively from the Gaeltacht area's and its working language was Irish, ie like a Gaeltacht school everyday business and chat was Irish.. But thats more or less gone now.

Although its use is still very much encouraged in the D.F.

On occassion Irish speakers have been invaluable oversea's when eves dropping on radio transmissions (conducted in English) compromised security then a unit would often look for Irish speakers (but enough of that) :cool:

Micky Dolenz

philologos wrote: »

I don't know why I should be proud of a country that I was born into. I could have been born in Botswana, or Sri Lanka.

Don't get me wrong, I have no major objections to Ireland as a country, but I don't understand why I should be proud of being born where I was born, that was out of my hands.

Thats a real German way of looking at things.

If I were born in Botswana or Sri Lanka I would be proud of my heritage and the people who came before me.

hondasam

token101 wrote: »

That's not a real world application! The only time the majority of people even come into contact with the Irish language is through TG4. I'd rather have a practical language skill that I can take elsewhere when I eventually have to emigrate than have pride on the dole!

You can take your Irish language with you as well, pride in ones country is important, this you will learn when you emigrate.
I have worked with lots of Irish native speakers, I love listening to it,I understand some of it but not a lot.

Namlub

philologos wrote: »

I don't think learning English as a second language would have been easier. I consider it an advantage that I learned English first.

+1. There seems to be an assumption that it would be taught well as a language, and as a result everyone would finish school bilingual, when there's no guarantee the curriculum wouldn't just mimic the Irish curriculum now, where thousands of students learn off essays about the recession but can't hold a conversation

dlofnep

Yes, and I took it upon myself to start learning Irish a few years ago and setup a conversational group in the city. Today, while I'm not fluent - I can hold a conversation in Irish at a very decent level, without any fears or hesitation.

The one thing I did notice is that a lot of people say they'd like to learn it, but what they really mean is that they'd love to be able to speak it, but not put the time and effort in to learn it.

I went to 2 classes - but to be honest, I learned nothing of worth in them. I learned most by sitting in the pub, having a few pints and just using it, and listening to it - picking up phrases here and there along the way. It's all a confidence building exercise.

LordSutch

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

Would be even nicer if you had "Native English speaker with Chinese/Japanese as second language".

Yes indeed, and that would come under the option I mentioned above as 'Other' (post#46).

token101

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

You could visit parts of your own country and be able to speak to the natives of those areas without feeling like a foreigner in your own land.

Why don't they speak to me in the language we both know like any person in Belgium/Holland/Germany would do when you visit their country? Why would anyone learn a language specifically to talk to someone in certain remote parts of the country?

Dostoevsky

SafeSurfer wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language

2006 Census (Irish Language)

Summary

1.66 million people having an 'ability to speak Irish' is not synonymous with '1.7 million people in the country consider themselves to be native Irish speakers'.

My name is URL

philologos wrote: »

I don't know why I should be proud of a country that I was born into. I could have been born in Botswana, or Sri Lanka.

Don't get me wrong, I have no major objections to Ireland as a country, but I don't understand why I should be proud of being born where I was born, that was out of my hands.

You could have been born into a Jewish or Muslim family but yet you have pride in being a Christian. How is it any different?

I agree though fwiw, feeling proud of a country just because you were born there is silly. Wanting the country in which you live and contribute towards to prosper and hold on to some of it's core history and traditions however; is not the same as blind patriotism imo.

Dostoevsky

More relevantly the 2006 Census compilers note the following:

'The higher the educational level attained, the more likely the ability to speak Irish. The relevant proportions for the population aged 15 years and over varied from 17.4 per cent in the case of people who left the education system with a primary education only, to 54.2 per cent for those with a degree.'

This observation explains much about the sort of people who rant against Irish.

Seachmall

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Thats a real German way of looking at things.

If I were born in Botswana or Sri Lanka I would be proud of my heritage and the people who came before me.

But your place of birth is an arbitrary reason to have pride in a culture or land.

I, for reasons little known to myself, hold Ireland to a higher esteem than I do England or Wales or Scotland or whatever. And I know if I were Welsh I'd do the same for Wales. It's completely ridiculous to do so and it's nothing something I actively engage in.

Ireland is a just a normal country like many others, why should I believe it's [objectively] on a pedestal above others simply because I was born here?

My Name is URL wrote:

Wanting the country in which you live and contribute towards to prosper and hold on to some of it's core history and traditions however;

Only if you view that history and traditions as important. Subjectively, because I was born here, I think they're important to some extent. Objectively they're not, or at least I can't see why history or tradition alone is important.

Agricola

Not really. If Irish was our first language, we would have an even more insular society than we already have, and thats saying something. I like that fact that as a nation, we are culturally in tune with the english speaking world.

Ideal scenario would be for Irish language teaching to be an actual success in school, where the majority of children finish the junior or leaving cert, fluent.

Namlub

LordSutch wrote: »

Yes indeed, and that would come under the option I mentioned above as 'Other' (post#46).

#28
Way ahead of you

hondasam

philologos wrote: »

I don't know why I should be proud of a country that I was born into. I could have been born in Botswana, or Sri Lanka.

Don't get me wrong, I have no major objections to Ireland as a country, but I don't understand why I should be proud of being born where I was born, that was out of my hands.

Lots of things are out of our hands, does not stop us showing pride in them.

Micky Dolenz

token101 wrote: »

Why don't they speak to me in the language we both know like any person in Belgium/Holland/Germany would do when you visit their country? Why would anyone learn a language specifically to talk to someone in certain remote parts of the country?

You could spend the rest of your years just speaking English and noone will care . don't learn Irish.

I like to be able to have some sort of communication in the local lingo even if it's just my please and thank you.

Micky Dolenz

Seachmall wrote: »

But your place of birth is an arbitrary reason to have pride in a culture or land.

I, for reasons little known to myself, hold Ireland to a higher esteem than I do England or Wales or Scotland or whatever. And I know if I were Welsh I'd do the same for Wales. It's completely ridiculous to do so and it's nothing something I actively engage in.

Ireland is a just a normal country like many others, why should I believe it's [objectively] on a pedestal above others simply because I was born here?

Only if you view that history and traditions as important. Subjectively, because I was born here, I think they're important to some extent. Objectively they're not, or at least I can't see why history or tradition alone is important.

No one says we are better then everyone else.Thats not what pride is, well not to me anyway.

dhayashi

I would love to speak it as a first language, and I agree that it would be easier to learn English as a second language! It's quite lovely.

philologos

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Thats a real German way of looking at things.

If I were born in Botswana or Sri Lanka I would be proud of my heritage and the people who came before me.

Why?

I can be equally intrigued in people of other cultures and places. I think one would struggle to define Irish heritage in the 21st century. Many people have different ideas of heritage.

I'm pretty interested in how it is a German way of seeing things?

cocoshovel

English as first language and Irish as nothing get away from me!

token101

hondasam wrote: »

You can take your Irish language with you as well, pride in ones country is important, this you will learn when you emigrate.
I have worked with lots of Irish native speakers, I love listening to it,I understand some of it but not a lot.

In all fairness what are you going to do in Quebec, or Argentina or Brazil with Irish? Teach them póg mo thón and that's about it. You could get a job in any of those places with a useful foreign language. I'm not in favour of killing the language at all, but it shouldn't be part of any main curriculum. We should be teaching kids any one of French/Chinese/Spanish/German/Japanese/Portuguese/Arabic as core skills before Irish. These are real world skills you need in a global economy. If you want to preserve Irish, incentivise people to learn it, like having a few extra points in the LC for it like they do with Hons Maths.

Dostoevsky

LordSutch wrote: »

Maybe I dont want to speak Irish at all?

This is a revelation - mar dhea. We never would have got that impression from the perennial glorification of British rule in your posts. :rolleyes:

philologos

hondasam wrote: »

Lots of things are out of our hands, does not stop us showing pride in them.

That doesn't help me understand why I should be proud of things that are out of my hands.

corktina

why didn't you all pay attention in school?

they were all pretty keen on teaching you it (no doubt).

hondasam

token101 wrote: »

Why don't they speak to me in the language we both know like any person in Belgium/Holland/Germany would do when you visit their country? Why would anyone learn a language specifically to talk to someone in certain remote parts of the country?

How many countries have you visited? what languages can you speak?
Irish is not just spoken in remote parts of the country.

Abi

token101 wrote: »

Abi wrote: »

I wish this was England. There. I've said it.

Ryanair and Aer Lingus do flights daily.

This internetting is serious business. Innit.

Micky Dolenz

philologos wrote: »

Why?

I can be equally intrigued in people of other cultures and places. I think one would struggle to define Irish heritage in the 21st century. Many people have different ideas of heritage.

I'm pretty interested in how it is a German way of seeing things?

I worked in Germany and they were brought up believing that they are just born to a nation and that it is no reason to be proud of it. They would offer remark on my pride of where I came from and my allegiance to the place. Mainly because I supported Munster.

Seachmall

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

No one says we are better then everyone else.Thats not what pride is, well not to me anyway.

"Better then everyone else" is not what I was getting at. But having pride in Ireland, not Wales, because I was born in Ireland, not Wales, is stupid. To me at least.


I am proud to be Irish. Partly because of the reason above (I was born here) and partly because Ireland has, and does, maintain a great presence in the technological world, contributes quite a bit to peacekeeping missions overseas and numerous other reasons.

Those are the reasons I would argue when asked why I'm proud to be Irish, and the Irish language has little to do with them.

token101

Dostoevsky wrote: »

More relevantly the 2006 Census compilers note the following:

'The higher the educational level attained, the more likely the ability to speak Irish. The relevant proportions for the population aged 15 years and over varied from 17.4 per cent in the case of people who left the education system with a primary education only, to 54.2 per cent for those with a degree.'

This observation explains much about the sort of people who rant against Irish.

Census figures? How many people believe in their own head that they have a decent standard and will write that down but don't have a word in reality? Lots. People delude themselves out of some sense of pride. There's no way if you took 100 graduates into a room that 54 of them would be able to hold a conversation in Irish. Not a prayer.

Martyn1989

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Yeah, I'd much prefer if we all spoke Irish as our first language. I think the majority of people would be able to speak English very very proficiently as a second language, the Dutch and Norwegians have perfect English for example. We'd be still very much influenced as a society by Britain and the US in tv, film, sport ect. so most would just pick it up anyway.

I agree, I'd say we would all speak very good english.
We would also all speak english with very american or english accents because we would hear the majority off the tv.

philologos

There is a difference between saying that I like living in a certain country to saying that I am proud of that country by virtue of birth.

I prefer an open perspective to the world. I'm not particularly nationalistic or patriotic, but I prefer it that way. It means that I'm up for assessing what's around me with as little preconditions or preconceptions as is possible.

Being Irish, is simply what I am, and since moving to the UK I'm finding that it is something that marks me off as different from other people. But as for whether or not I can be proud of something I was simply born into is questionable.

hondasam

philologos wrote: »

That doesn't help me understand why I should be proud of things that are out of my hands.

You did not choose your parents, are you proud of them?

Dostoevsky

token101 wrote: »

There's no way if you took 100 graduates into a room that 54 of them would be able to hold a conversation in Irish. Not a prayer.

I've often been in a room with 100 graduates and all of us could speak Irish. We could also speak excellent English, but we chose to speak Irish because that's how we prefer to express ourselves.

philologos

hondasam wrote: »

You did not choose your parents, are you proud of them?

I've gotten to know my parents as people. It is because of what I have seen of them that I have built my impression of them. It isn't because of virtue of birth. If I was separated from either of them as I was growing up, or if I never knew either or both of them, I doubt I would feel the same way about them as I do. Strong families are important to me, primarily because of what I've experienced through being in a good family.

I don't think the analogy of Ireland as my parents is applicable. Ireland's a place where I have lived. It has its pros and it has its cons.

Dostoevsky

hondasam wrote: »

Irish is not just spoken in remote parts of the country.

This, very much this.

LordSutch

Dostoevsky wrote: »

2006 Census (Irish Language)

Summary

1.66 million people having an 'ability to speak Irish' is not synonymous with '1.7 million people in the country consider themselves to be native Irish speakers'.

It would be very interesting to see what level of Irish they speak!

Two friends of mine ticked the 'Speak Irish' box on the Census form, and neither of them can get past the Cupla Focal, this then became a talking point after the Census, and reading between the lines "they thought" it was their duty to say that they could speak Irish, and that those who didn't tick the speak Irish box "fluently" were un-patriotic, so I would take that 1.66 million Irish speakers with a very large pinch of salt. Yes I know that there's a break down on the pdf, but if people just say 'I can speak Irish' when they can't where does that leave the findings? Even I can speak the basics of Irish, but I couldn't hold a conversation in Irish, but does that mean that I should have ticked the YES box to speaking Irish?

Micky Dolenz

philologos wrote: »

That doesn't help me understand why I should be proud of things that are out of my hands.

If you don't understand, then you don't get it. All the explaining in the word won't make you get it.

Like trying to explain faith to an atheist.

jaja321

token101 wrote: »

In all fairness what are you going to do in Quebec, or Argentina or Brazil with Irish? Teach them póg mo thón and that's about it. You could get a job in any of those places with a useful foreign language. I'm not in favour of killing the language at all, but it shouldn't be part of any main curriculum. We should be teaching kids any one of French/Chinese/Spanish/German/Japanese/Portuguese/Arabic as core skills before Irish. These are real world skills you need in a global economy. If you want to preserve Irish, incentivise people to learn it, like having a few extra points in the LC for it like they do with Hons Maths.

You actually do get extra points if you do your leaving cert through Irish

wilkie2006

I'd love to be able to speak Irish fluently. Although I concede it's also down to the student to make an effort, I feel the education system has failed hundred of thousand of people. When you spend 16-odd years learning Irish but can't speak a word of it when you leave school - but can get by with French after 3 years - there's something wrong.

philologos

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

If you don't understand, then you don't get it. All the explaining in the word won't make you get it.

Like trying to explain faith to an atheist.

I don't know if that is true. It is possible for an atheist to become a Christian.

It should be possible for you to convince me as to why I should be proud of something I have no control over. I'm a reasonable person for the most part

token101

Dostoevsky wrote: »

I've often been in a room with 100 graduates and all of us could speak Irish. We could also speak excellent English, but we chose to speak Irish because that's how we prefer to express ourselves.

Were you doing Irish as a course or part of your course? If you took 100 average 3rd level graduates, business, IT, arts, most wouldn't be able to hold a conversation in Irish. Saying otherwise is a fallacy. I used to think I could speak a reasonable level of Irish until I picked up a Times supplement and realised I only understood every third word or so. I'd say most are similar.

later12

We are the only English speaking country in the Eurozone. I don't think we fully appreciate the importance of this as a selling point for the R&D and financial services industries.

I know the OP didn't want to swell on commercial aspects, but I think it is a significant matter.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Like trying to explain faith to an atheist.

Or atheism to philologos.

Micky Dolenz

philologos wrote: »

I don't know if that is true. It is possible for an atheist to become a Christian.

It should be possible for you to convince me as to why I should be proud of something I have no control over. I'm a reasonable person for the most part

To be honest and in the nicest possible way I don't care enough to try and convince anyone how they should feel about the land where they come from. Every person for themselves. I'll love you no matter what you believe

dlofnep

philologos wrote: »

It should be possible for you to convince me as to why I should be proud of something I have no control over. I'm a reasonable person for the most part

So, you couldn't be proud of a sibling graduating from university, because it is something you personally have no control over, or no input into?

Pride isn't something defined by a strict set of rules. It is an emotion. And it starts with appreciation. Someone can appreciate the culture of the country that they were born in, grew up in. A country that has a magical array of folklore dating back centuries, music and dance. So - Can someone be proud of their country and it's culture? Absolutely. But it isn't the same pride as you might have for something you have personally achieved, such as graduating. But it's pride nonetheless.

hondasam

philologos wrote: »

I don't think the analogy of Ireland as my parents is applicable. Ireland's a place where I have lived. It has its pros and it has its cons.

Yes but you did not choose your parents, it was our of you hands as you said but it has not stopped you been proud of them.
If you have lived in Ireland you should have got to know lots about the country and feel some loyalty and pride for it.
I know not everyone sees things in the same way but personally I'm fierce loyal to my country.

later12

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Thats a real German way of looking at things.

If I were born in Botswana or Sri Lanka I would be proud of my heritage and the people who came before me.

Totally. Absurd.

This is a regressive, irrational mentality that belongs in the dark ages. How on Earth can you feel proud about an accident of geography or of genetics?

token101

hondasam wrote: »

How many countries have you visited? what languages can you speak?
Irish is not just spoken in remote parts of the country.

Most of Europe, bit of US. I can speak a little Irish and a little French (wouldn't confidently hold a full blown conversation in either). Your point?

I have never entered a shop in any city or big town in Ireland and been greeted in Irish. Never in my 25 years. It's only ever happened to me in Cape Clear, Inverin and Ring. They are all relatively remote.

4zn76tysfajdxp

philologos wrote: »

I don't understand why I should be proud of being born where I was born, that was out of my hands.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Thats a real German way of looking at things.

I'm proud to be a German.

philologos

hondasam: I've explained to you about why I feel the way I do about my parents. It is for the most part due to what I have learned about my parents that makes it rather easy for me to respect them. It's not quite the same thing as patriotism would be.

I just don't understand there's a sense that people must be loyal to the country that they were born in, or why people must have some kind of deep connection to everything. I like Ireland as a place, and many friends of mine naturally are there but I don't know how I could say anything more about it.

dlofnep: I don't know why I should be specifically proud of my nationality though. There's little ways that Ireland has no doubt had an overwhelming impact upon me, but it is when I go beyond saying that I think Ireland's a good enough country to claiming that I have some pride for it that I find a little bit uneasy. That's probably just me, I'm not a fan of patriotism of any kind, it's a turn off. Many of the Irish forms of patriotism can be quite dogmatic too.