Would you prefer to speak Irish?

later12

dlofnep wrote: »

So, you couldn't be proud of a sibling graduating from university, because it is something you personally have no control over, or no input into?

One can have an input into a sibling's success.

A better analogy would be feeling pride in your parents for having graduated if it occurred independently of your birth or existence, which would be a little illogical indeed.

Admiration is another thing, but pride?

Seachmall

hondasam wrote: »

Yes but you did not choose your parents, it was our of you hands as you said but it has not stopped you been proud of them.
If you have lived in Ireland you should have got to know lots about the country and feel some loyalty and pride for it.
I know not everyone sees things in the same way but personally I'm fierce loyal to my country.

But your loyalty to your parents doesn't come from the simple chance of your conception. It comes from the fact they raised and provided for you.

There are plenty of people who would prefer to have little to do with their parents because their parents constantly failed them or worse.

Likewise your loyalty to your country shouldn't be based on the simple chance of your birth here, but what it has provided, or can provide, for you.

Agricola

Seachmall wrote: »

I am proud to be Irish. Partly because of the reason above (I was born here) and partly because Ireland has, and does, maintain a great presence in the technological world, contributes quite a bit to peacekeeping missions overseas and numerous other reasons.

That is a very clinical, German, way to look at it though!

For me, and probably most people, pride in your country is related to the fact that the country encompasses all of your native culture. The population in the country share a common language, common traits, a common religion, (that is changing, but for another debate) common pasttimes, common sporting interests, etc etc. When several million people have all these shared values and experiences, of course its going to breed pride in the one thing that we all have in common, we are all from the same country, in our case this island.

Micky Dolenz

later10 wrote: »

Totally. Absurd.

This is a regressive, irrational mentality that belongs in the dark ages. How on Earth can you feel proud about an accident of geography or of genetics?

In your opinion.

I will watch the upcoming 6N and hope my country men do better then the other countries we compete against. I hope the land where I live becomes a better place to live again, mainly because I live here.

Will you support your country in the upcoming fuzz ball tournament?

SafeSurfer

Dostoevsky wrote: »

I've often been in a room with 100 graduates and all of us could speak Irish. We could also speak excellent English, but we chose to speak Irish because that's how we prefer to express ourselves.

The annual general meeting of the Irish Speaking Graduates Association hardly counts.

Your assertion that higher levels of education correlate with higher levels of Irish speaking wouln't have anything to do with the compulsory nature of Irish in our education system would it?

philologos

dlofnep wrote: »

Absolutely. But it isn't the same pride as you might have for something you have personally achieved, such as graduating. But it's pride nonetheless.

A lot of what I have personally achieved is out of my own hands as well. Getting a degree, you could say is only applying what intelligence I've been given. Life is essentially about making the most of what you've been given, a whole swathe of things are out of your hands, even sometimes right down to what you have an aptitude for.

I'm thankful for what I have been given, but I praise the ultimate Creator rather than the created.

hondasam

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

In your opinion.

I will watch the upcoming 6N and hope my country men do better then the other countries we compete against. I hope the land where I live becomes a better place to live again, mainly because I live here.

Will you support your country in the upcoming fuzz ball tournament?

I know nothing about Rugby but I will want them to win because it's our team and I want them to do well.
same with the fuzz ball and any other sport we compete in.

good luck lads.

Mr. Rager

Yes, definitely. I'm shít it now, but I still make an attempt.

later12

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Will you support your country in the upcoming fuzz ball tournament?

The only country I have is a few acres of unsaleable bogland. Laying claim on an entire island is quite out of my reach, I'm afraid.

As far as I'm concerned, citizenship is a tax and services transaction. I have no interest in supporting an Irish sports team simply on account of the fact that we were all born within the same tribal jurisdiction, no. I'll watch the rugby, but if Ireland win I certainly won'ttake any pride in their success - it has nothing to do with me.

dlofnep

later10 wrote: »

One can have an input into a sibling's success.

You're evading the point. Assuming you have no input into a sibling's success in academia, are you asserting that you cannot be proud of them? The general argument against pride in one's country is the 'accident of birth', or 'you had no input into it' argument. Well, you being a sibling of some other is simply an accident of birth. You could have been anyone else's brother or sister. But because you grow up with them, you grow a sense of loyalty towards them - so that when they succeed, you share the sentiment of pride in them.

Pride is an emotion. You can't police the thoughts and emotions of people - we are not robots. Pride in one's nation is perfectly natural, and there is nothing irrational about it. That is why thousands of people come out to watch their country play in a myriad of sporting events, and why they all share a sentiment of pride when they perform well.

So I'm not saying that there is an onus on anyone to have pride in their country, there is nothing fundamentally irrational about it - providing of course, you understand that it's not the same type of pride one has in themselves.

later12

dlofnep wrote: »

You're evading the point. Assuming you have no input into a sibling's success in academia, are you asserting that you cannot be proud of them?

You can take pleasure at their success, but if you had zero input into it, then you cannot be proud of their achievment in the strict sense of the word, no. Being proud of a person (presumably, being related to a person) is in itself even more bizarre than national pride.

dlofnep

philologos wrote: »

I'm thankful for what I have been given, but I praise the ultimate Creator rather than the created.

Your parents?

hondasam

later10 wrote: »

The only country I have is a few acres of unsaleable bogland. Laying claim on an entire island is quite out of my reach, I'm afraid.

As far as I'm concerned, citizenship is a tax and services transaction. I have no interest in supporting an Irish sports team simply on account of the fact that we were all born within the same tribal jurisdiction, no. I'll watch the rugby, but if Ireland win I certainly won'ttake any pride in their success - it has nothing to do with me.

Why watch it then? I don't understand this tbh.

philologos

Nobody is suggesting policing everyone's emotions. That's what a lot of patriots do to those who don't have the same degree of patriotism as they do as well in all fairness.

I think the world would be a better place in some ways if people weren't so patriotic, but I could be wrong. All I can do is simply say that I don't really understand patriotism. Having said that I've found my nationality to be a much more important component of my identity since I've moved here.

dlofnep wrote: »

Your parents?

God, as far as I can tell. Fulfilling a biological process isn't quite the same thing as actually forming the individual.

dlofnep

later10 wrote: »

You can take pleasure at their success, but if you had zero input into it, then you cannot be proud of their achievment in the strict sense of the word, no. Being proud of a person (presumably, being related to a person is in itself even more bizarre).

No? Alright - that's that sorted then. Nobody can have pride in their sibling because later10 has said so. Next topic.

Seachmall

Agricola wrote: »

That is a very clinical, German, way to look at it though!

For me, and probably most people, pride in your country is related to the fact that the country encompasses all of your native culture. The population in the country share a common language, common traits, a common religion, (that is changing, but for another debate) common pasttimes, common sporting interests, etc etc. When several million people have all these shared values and experiences, of course its going to breed pride in the one thing that we all have in common, we are all from the same country, in our case this island.

The culture isn't absolutely important though. I suspect I'd have the same pride in Ireland if we all spoke Irish as I do now, when we all speak English.

I much prefer "American music" over Irish music, I don't share religion with most Irish nor do I participate in Irish sports. These things which make up culture are irrelevant to me.

The important parts of Ireland to me, and the ones I would rather base my pride on, are the ones that provide me with what other people in other countries don't have. Being Irish means I have a great platform from which to enter an industry I love (technology), it provides me with great resources in terms of education and communication, it does it's best to ensure I will never be desperate for the necessities in life (food, water, shelter etc.) and for the most part it reflects more morals when it comes to national (laws) and international levels (neutral in wars etc.).

The Irish culture as most people mean it (history, language, music, traditions, etc.) means very little to me. It's what the country provides for me and 5 million others that make me proud to be a citizen here.

later12

dlofnep wrote: »

No? Alright - that's that sorted then. Nobody can have pride in their sibling because later10 has said so. Next topic.

Exactly. That is exactly what I suggest, a ban on pride. There is no rolleyes big enough to describe the leaps in logic you seem to execute so well.

philologos

Agricola: The common religion argument never existed in Ireland. There were always people who were non-Catholics around. Most of the other things you've listed are pretty much dependant on the individual.

Micky Dolenz

later10 wrote: »

The only country I have is a few acres of unsaleable bogland. Laying claim on an entire island is quite out of my reach, I'm afraid.

As far as I'm concerned, citizenship is a tax and services transaction. I have no interest in supporting an Irish sports team simply on account of the fact that we were all born within the same tribal jurisdiction, no. I'll watch the rugby, but if Ireland win I certainly won'ttake any pride in their success - it has nothing to do with me.

Again I don't mind what you believe. More power to you.

I do have an imput into Irish rugby by being a supportor and player of the game. Without people like me Irish rugby would not exist. Same applies to all sport.

later12

hondasam wrote: »

Why watch it then? I don't understand this tbh.

Because I like the sport, I like watching people perform a set of skills that I admire. The exact same reason why I willenjoy the Scotland England match.

I find it a little tragic that someone would suggest the need to feel a tribal bond to enjoy or admire a sporting fixture.

dlofnep

later10 wrote: »

Exactly. That is exactly what I suggest, a ban on pride. There is no rolleyes big enough to describe the leaps in logic you seem to execute so well.

I'm not the one stating that one can or cannot have pride in. I'm asserting that it's not irrational if someone does. You are trying to police what is logical, and what isn't. A snide, condescending tone echoes from your posts.

dlofnep

later10 wrote: »

Because I like the sport.

So presumably - if Ireland plays New Zealand, you will have the exact same emotional response if New Zealand wins, or if Ireland wins. Right?

hondasam

later10 wrote: »

Because I like the sport, I like watching people perform a set of skills that I admire. The exact same reason why I willenjoy the Scotland England match.

I find it a little tragic that someone would suggest the need to feel a tribal bond to enjoy or admire a sporting fixture.

I have seen grown men cry over sport, it's pride in your team for most people who watch their team they cannot help but get emotionally involved.

later12

dlofnep wrote: »

So presumably - if Ireland plays New Zealand, you will have the exact same emotional response if New Zealand wins, or if Ireland wins. Right?

New Zealand isn't a great example, because I like to see the underdog win.

In the Wales vs Ireland match, I won't be shouting for a particular side.I think it's a pity that people feel the need to personalize these things. This is the reason I find the Olympics so regressive as well. Batallions of flag waving tribes endorsing these petty and divisive self-interests in a way that is so alien to what sport ought really be about - team effort, achievement and talent for their own sakes.

losthorizon

TheZohan wrote: »

I learned Latin in school, it made learning other languages a lot easier. Most english words come from Latin.

Actually they come from Greek. You went down a cul de sac with that post.

Tar.Aldarion

dlofnep wrote: »

So presumably - if Ireland plays New Zealand, you will have the exact same emotional response if New Zealand wins, or if Ireland wins. Right?

Well yes, why are you imposing how you would feel on him? I might watch it and wouldn't give a **** who won, I watch things because I enjoy watching them and it's ridiculous to ask the question, when he has stated over and over he does not feel such pride. In fact as he said, I always want the underdog to win personally, as it is exciting. If some country were supposed to get absolutely smashed by Ireland and destroyed them, I would love that game. When i watch games in the pub and people go mad at Ireland scoring and boo at the other team and I am just sitting there watching it with no emotion, people think it is quite odd

dlofnep

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Well yes, why are you imposing how you would feel on him?

I don't remember imposing anything on him. I asked the poster a question.

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I might watch it and wouldn't give a **** who won

Jaysus - I'd say you're a blast. "I'm going to watch this match!!! But first, I'm going to make sure I don't give a **** who wins!"

Chuck Stone

I would love to be able to speak Irish. I think the teaching of Irish should be voluntary now though.

I've toyed with how Later10 perceives nationalism and tribalism but I don't reject these concepts outright as being useless - they can be used for good and bad.

Take the recent success of Irish provincial rugby - it makes people proud, allows them to feel part of a successful community and I dare say helps build confidence in individuals when their team beats other world class teams.

later12

dlofnep wrote: »

I
Jaysus - I'd say you're a blast. "I'm going to watch this match!!! But first, I'm going to make sure I don't give a **** who wins!"

There's no problem with having a preference. We all have heroes, and it's great to have heroes. But it isn't necessarily logical to elevate a man or a team to that status simply because they're of your tribe or come from your island.

Agricola

Seachmall wrote: »

The culture isn't absolutely important though. I suspect I'd have the same pride in Ireland if we all spoke Irish as I do now, when we all speak English.

I much prefer "American music" over Irish music, I don't share religion with most Irish nor do I participate in Irish sports. These things which make up culture are irrelevant to me.

The important parts of Ireland to me, and the ones I would rather base my pride on, are the ones that provide me with what other people in other countries don't have. Being Irish means I have a great platform from which to enter an industry I love (technology), it provides me with great resources in terms of education and communication, it does it's best to ensure I will never be desperate for the necessities in life (food, water, shelter etc.) and for the most part it reflects more morals when it comes to national (laws) and international levels (neutral in wars etc.).

The Irish culture as most people mean it (history, language, music, traditions, etc.) means very little to me. It's what the country provides for me and 5 million others that make me proud to be a citizen here.

Well if you have a different set of reasons to have some pride in the country, then thats fine. And I fully agree with you, neutrality, stance on human rights, free speech, high levels of charity etc are very real reasons to be proud.

But they arent the set of reasons which spring to the forefront of the mind when people speak of pride in your country. Like you said yourself, the culture of Ireland as most people mean it, (history, language, music and traditions) are the things than bind most people together and engender pride. When 50,000 people's pulse quickens at an Ireland England rugby game, its not the Iraq / Afghanistan invasion by British forces thats exciting the Irish crowd! Its the history, the subjugation of the language and subversion of the culture over 800 YEARS, 800 YEARS!! C'MOOOOON!!!!!

Tar.Aldarion

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't remember imposing anything on him. I asked the poster a question.

What I mean by that is that it is a stupid question, as he already answered it in every single post? You are only asking it because you would feel differently and think it is odd that he would not.

Jaysus - I'd say you're a blast. "I'm going to watch this match!!! But first, I'm going to make sure I don't give a **** who wins!"

I don't make sure of anything, I might like to see one team win over another, as I had said, but it has nothing got to do with where I was randomly born. In that particular case I would like to see Ireland as an underdog win the game. There are any number of arbitrary reasons I might like to see one win over another. Pride is not a factor I consider.

dlofnep

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I don't make sure of anything, I might like to see one team win over another, as I had said, but it has nothing got to do with where I was randomly born. In that particular case I would like to see Ireland as an underdog win the game.

That's fine, and there is ultimately nothing wrong with that - But don't try to dictate to someone what is logical, and what isn't.

LordSutch

hondasam wrote: »

It is our language and we should be able to speak it.

No its not, English is our language.

Seachmall

Agricola wrote: »

But they arent the set of reasons which spring to the forefront of the mind when people speak of pride in your country. Like you said yourself, the culture of Ireland as most people mean it, (history, language, music and traditions) are the things than bind most people together and engender pride. When 50,000 people's pulse quickens at an Ireland England rugby game, its not the Iraq / Afghanistan invasion by British forces thats exciting the Irish crowd! Its the history, the subjugation of the language and subversion of the culture over 800 YEARS, 800 YEARS!! C'MOOOOON!!!!!

Going back to the German example, do you think a German should be embarrassed or ashamed to be German because of it's unfortunate recent history?

Chuck Stone

later10 wrote: »

I find it a little tragic that someone would suggest the need to feel a tribal bond to enjoy or admire a sporting fixture.

I agree with this.

If your only interest in sport is tribal then it's not really sport you're interested in imho

I grew up in an Irish nationalist soccer household up north and wasn't exposed to rugby but started watching Ireland playing rugby years ago. It was the nationalist aspect that drew me towards it but it was the underlying skill and tactics of the game that grew my appreciation of the sport.

later12

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Take the recent success of Irish provincial rugby - it makes people proud, allows them to feel part of a successful community and I dare say helps build confidence in individuals when their team beats other world class teams.

Oh yes, and in fact for this reason it's perfectly logical for those who do involve themselves with the team (at whatever level) to support that team simply by way of association.

And there's no doubt that victorious national team can give all sorts of people a 'lift', just think back to when Ireland beat England in Croke Park and went on to win the triple crown a few years ago. I was delighted myself (but I wasn't being totally rational). That gave a huge lift to people starting to feel the slow decline into economic disaster.

I don't take pleasure in being a wet blanket when it comes to sport and the national team,and I know that people do take pleasure in it, and I'm sure they have better things to do than concern themselves with the logical validity of such pride.

But, if we are to broach that subject, I would suggest that for the average punter like myself, a nationalist affiliation is a broadly irrational one.

Agricola

Seachmall wrote: »

Going back to the German example, do you think a German should be embarrassed or ashamed to be German because of it's unfortunate recent history?

No, why?

later12

Seachmall wrote: »

Going back to the German example, do you think a German should be embarrassed or ashamed to be German because of it's unfortunate recent history?

I think that's an excellent question, but surely that's an argument against "800 years" nationalism in itself? In terms that historical responsibility or suffering is not hereditary.

My ancestors did lots of good things, my ancestors also did very many bad things. I take no relief for the good, nor shame for the bad. I am a remote observer, just as many of us are when we look at this island's history.

Cú Giobach

later10 wrote: »

But, if we are to broach that subject, I would suggest that for the average punter like myself, a nationalist affiliation is a broadly irrational one.

Far from it, as a social species we are evolutionarily conditioned to form groupings and to put a higher value on members of our own "group".
This then manifests itself in many ways, including national pride.

SafeSurfer

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

Samuel Johnson

later12

Cú Giobach wrote: »

as a social species we are evolutionarily conditioned to form groupings and to put a higher value on members of our own "group".

We certainly are.

But we inherited lots of forms of social conditioning including antipathy or lack of concern toward those beyond our tribe, and the denigration of women, and male aggression, and so on.

Not all things that have come to us through evolution are positive. Natural selection, and these animalistic and hereditary forms of conditioning have no foresight. They tend to promote what allows individuals to populate the environment; they do not necessarily promote that which allows individuals to be happy, or kind, or logical.

Cú Giobach

later10 wrote: »

We certainly are.

But we inherited lots of forms of social conditioning including antipathy or lack of concern toward those beyond our tribe, and the denigration of women, and male aggression, and so on.

Not all things that have come to us through evolution are positive. Natural selection, and these animalistic and hereditary forms of conditioning have no foresight. They tend to promote what allows individuals to populate the environment; they do not necessarily promote that which allows individuals to be happy, or kind, or logical.

Which is why having issues with the healthy release of these characteristics through things like sporting events etc is illogical and possibly even harmful.

Micky Dolenz

SafeSurfer wrote: »

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

Samuel Johnson

As if he can talk.

Snakes on a plane!! Like hello.

SafeSurfer

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

As if he can talk.

Snakes on a plane!! Like hello.

He's dead Micky, he's dead.

Worms in a box.

later12

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Which is why having issues with the healthy release of these characteristics through things like sporting events etc is illogical and possibly even harmful.

Harmful?

Well now I'm just intrigued.

Cú Giobach

later10 wrote: »

Harmful?

Well now I'm just intrigued.

Good.

Noreen1

LordSutch wrote: »

hondasam wrote: »

It is our language and we should be able to speak it.

No its not, English is our language.

Speak for yourself, please. Irish is my language.

later12

Perhaps the HSE should sponsor the Ireland team for the 6 Nations. You know,just so as to raise awareness of the harmful side effects of not fully embracing the national team.

Namlub

Noreen1 wrote: »

Speak for yourself, please. Irish is my language.

She writes, in English.

Micky Dolenz

Logic and sport don't make good bed fellows.