Would you prefer to speak Irish?

FionnK86

Im in secondary school now, Im getting C'sin honours and mocks are around the corner, personally I would love to be able to speak it fluently like my classmates but as a Dub with my parents having no sense of the language I cant cope with it in school. I love speaking it for stuff like "Ceart Go Leor" or "Failte Romhat" but I think a language and its survival depends on the least educated using it every day.

When I hear "well-off" people speaking it, its more of a show off kinda thing to do...

I am ashamed of myself for not being able to speak the language our ancestors fought for, which some may have forgotten!

later12

cassi wrote: »

The basis behind someones pride in something, be it either something you directly had a hand in or your national team, country etc doesn't always have to have a logical explanation.

Well I can't speak for everyone else, and despite what someone said earlier, I've no interest in policing others' emotions. Whether a man wants to take pride in his back garden or in his county GAA team, or his national team is really none of my business.

All I mean to say is what I personally find unacceptable. As an Irishman, I often find myself feeling defensive about Ireland or clenching my fist in satisfaction every time Ireland scores a try or puts a ball in the net.

If I can help it, I try to avoid these feelings by speaking to the rational side of my brain, and reminding myself that there is no logical reason to support a team on the grounds that we come from the same patch of land.
But I have no interest in printing pamphlets on this stuff or disseminating disaffection in my local pub as the punters shout for Paul O'Connell or Jamie Heaslip.

Whatever they choose to do is their own perogative, but this is a discussion board, and if none of us are going to share our opinions then we might as well sign off and lock ourselves away with our own private thoughts.

Noreen1

FionnK86 wrote: »

Im in secondary school now, Im getting C'sin honours and mocks are around the corner, personally I would love to be able to speak it fluently like my classmates but as a Dub with my parents having no sense of the language I cant cope with it in school. I love speaking it for stuff like "Ceart Go Leor" or "Failte Romhat" but I think a language and its survival depends on the least educated using it every day.

When I hear "well-off" people speaking it, its more of a show off kinda thing to do...

I am ashamed of myself for not being able to speak the language our ancestors fought for, which some may have forgotten!

Don't be ashamed.
My children speak fluent Irish, but some of them dislike Irish as a subject - (and English, too!:D) - not because of any difficulty with the language itself, but because of the poetry, prose etc.

If you want to learn the language, then find some classes outside of school, where Irish is spoken. You will find it is much easier than having to learn reams of poetry, appreciating different literary styles etc.

You should never feel ashamed of yourself for not being able to speak a language that you have not been allowed to speak (because in school you listen to the teacher, you do not get any real opportunity to speak the language).

Think about it. In French/German/any other language class - you get more time to speak whatever language it is you are learning, because no time is devoted to Poetry, or any of the other extras that are included in both the Irish and English syllabus.
Why Irish should be taught any differently, to those who cannot speak it, is beyond me, tbh.

I didn't learn reams of verbs before I started speaking Irish or English.
I did learn reams of verbs when starting to learn French, German, and Latin - yet Irish and English are the languages I speak fluently.
There's a reason for that, imo.

13spanner

I have an interest in Irish and enjoy using it. It's grand until you get stuck into the grammar that could be said for any language though.

Noreen1

It's just like learning English, though. No five or six year old speaking English knows anything about the grammar - but they still speak English.

Irish is no different.
Practice speaking it, and the grammar follows naturally.

Alanna Few Needle

I'm still learning Irish, but have few opportunities to use what I've learned and keeping it up is proving difficult, but as many have already said, it's a hobby. Would be nice to have it as a day to day language, however I think that's unlikely.

Alanna Few Needle wrote: »

On occassion Irish speakers have been invaluable oversea's when eves dropping on radio transmissions (conducted in English) compromised security then a unit would often look for Irish speakers (but enough of that) :cool:

During WWII Welsh and Gaelic (Scottish) speakers were highly valued in comms for the same reason, the US used native Americans as well.

Paz-CCFC

I'd prefer for Irish to be the native of language of the majority, but with a near level of English. I adore Irish and I wish I had been brought up to speak it natively. I know a few people from the Gaeltacht and I envy that they get to speak Irish at home all the time. Thankfully, I was sent to a Gaelscoil and a Gaelcholáiste, which is something I'll always be grateful for.

I see the usual arguments against Irish have come up. "Dead language", "it's of no practical use" etc. These arguments are always brought up, yet there is generally little statistics to back these up.

Dead Language. Is it really? There are 40,000+ native speakers, and 68,000 speak it daily outside of the education system. 475,000 speak it within the education system and, while some of those might not be at a particularly high level, some others would be fantastic at the language. The figure of 1.66 million of people who have some level of Irish, in my opinion, is probably a bit higher than reality. However, I think that there are plenty of people who underestimate their Irish. In the pub the other day, I was speaking to my friend for a good hour in Irish. Twice, at most, he stopped and asked me (through Irish) what a certain English word was in Irish. Other than that, he was well able to keep up with me. However, he said that he wasn't fluent and his Irish wasn't good at all. It was quite clear that he was. Anyway, I digress slightly from the point of Irish being a dead language. If it were dead, then no one would speak it. However, nearly 70,000 speak it on a daily basis. Manchester United get 70,000 people at their matches on a regular basis. I suppose they're a dead club, right?

It's of no practical use. It's of plenty of practical use:

• Media - TG4, Raidió na Gaeltachta, Foinse etc.
• Translating - Every act passed by the Oireachtas needs to be in Irish, as well as all amendents to Bunreacht na hÉireann. Ditto for European Union law. People who work doing the latter would be doing so in Luxembourg, I believe, which also disproves another point that says you'll never need it in a foreign country (sure, most places even in non-English native countries speak English anyway, so why bother learning their language?).
• Law - District courts encompassing Gaeltachtaí need a minimum quota of Irish-speaking judges. So, speaking fluent Irish gives you a clear leg up there. And while it's not necessary in the High Court and Supreme Court, you can bet that judges who speak it fluently are more likely to be appointed, since they could be hearing cases related to language conflicts. Irish citizens also have the right to have their cases heard in Irish, so, if the other party and/or judge is unable to speak Irish, a translator is neccessary. Likewise, Gardaí who work in stations that are in/crossover to Gaeltachtaí would need more Irish than most other places for obvious reasons.
• Education - obviously, seeing as Irish is being taught in schools, Irish speakers are needed. Gaelscoileanna are on the rise - guess who'll benefit from this? And there are jobs to be gotten in teaching languages to adults in night classes. In UCC, there's a certain course where you do an erasmus Montana in the US and teach Irish to the locals. Believe it or not, some people voluntarily attempt to learn the language.

A dead language with no practical uses? An bhfuil tú ag magadh fúm?

annascott

I can pass myself in Irish for interview level if necessary but would never call myself a native speaker. Unless it is necessary for work, I would rather not use it at all. If not given the option of phasing it out, I would like schools to have it as an extra (if at all). It is totally useless outside of Ireland. It's a shame that all children don't have a strong second language such as German, French or Spanish, which would be of some use to them unlike any of the Gaelic languages.

nice_very

I can speak: english, spanish, some Irish, some Basque, I understand some: written italian, written portuguese, very little french and german.

I would be happy with a good level of Irish, Basque, spanish, english

LH Pathe

I would prefer to do the hucklebuck.

After that, as a 2nd language i reckon I'd ituitively pick up the ould ingles anyhow through a desire to know WTF they're actually saying on tv

CianRyan

I honestly hate the Irish language. It sounds horrible.

Mike 1972

Poll missing a few options

e.g.

Irish as THIRD language (Useful continental language second)

or

No interest in learning Irish whatsoever

Poll Fail !

St.Spodo

Fluency in Irish is one thing I definitely want to achieve.

Cú Giobach

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Poll missing a few options
e.g.
Irish as THIRD language (Useful continental language second)
or
No interest in learning Irish whatsoever

Poll Fail !

Basic comprehension fail.

air assault

Id love to be able to speak fluent Irish. Sometimes im ashamed that i cant. Really brought home when Des Bishop met two Korean guys in New York City, that spoke fluent Irish and have never been here.

Mike 1972

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Basic comprehension fail.

Right back at you

A choice between two crap options is no choice at all.

Seomra Mushie

I'd like to be a native Irish-speaker only if I was also fluent in English. The question is, would we have English fluency if we still spoke Irish as a first language?

Mike 1972

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

It's of no practical use. It's of plenty of practical use:

Obtaining employment in various heavily subsidised non-jobs which the state can no longer never could afford ?

Cú Giobach

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Right back at you

A choice between two crap options is no choice at all.

I can just see you approaching some people on the street who are conducting a taste test to see if people prefer Coke or Pepsi and getting all high and mighty saying their survey fails because there is no 7-Up option and you like 7-Up, the people looking at you oddly and saying "Ok... sure, Next please", then having a good laugh in the pub later discussing some of the very odd people they met that day.

The poll is a very specific question ie "Would you rather have been born in an Ireland that spoke Irish rather than English?".
Not "what are your opinions of Irish in general" or "Which language would you prefer Ireland to speak" etc....

Noreen1

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

I'd like to be a native Irish-speaker only if I was also fluent in English. The question is, would we have English fluency if we still spoke Irish as a first language?

??? Thousands of people in the Gaeltachts are fluent in both!
I can't see why the rest of the Country would be any different.

Seomra Mushie

Noreen1 wrote: »

??? Thousands of people in the Gaeltachts are fluent in both!
I can't see why the rest of the Country would be any different.

But that's totally different! People in Gaeltacht areas were of course going to pick up English also, as it is a such a small country and there are no seas between them and English-speaking areas, apart from the few small offshore islands, the inhabitants of which would travel regularly to the mainland. I was more musing about if Britain had not colonised Ireland and the country had remained united.

Cú Giobach

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

I'd like to be a native Irish-speaker only if I was also fluent in English. The question is, would we have English fluency if we still spoke Irish as a first language?

Seeing as Bi- or even Multi-linguism is quite the norm around the world, why not?

From the Linguistic Society of America

Multilingualism isn't unusual; in fact, it's the norm for most of the world's societies. It's possible for a person to know and use three, four, or even more languages fluently.

Seomra Mushie

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Seeing as Bi- or even Multi-linguism is quite the norm around the world, why not?

From the Linguistic Society of America

Going by our woeful form at learning other languages to fluency, I'm not convinced we'd be anywhere near fluent in English.

Er, also, I do know what bilingualism is. How patronising to link that!

Cú Giobach

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

Going by our woeful form at learning other languages to fluency, I'm not convinced we'd be anywhere near fluent in English.

Er, also, I do know what bilingualism is. How patronising to link that!

I doubt our record has anything to do with some inherent lack of ability, but is for the same reason most people from other English speaking countries eg Britain, The US, Australia etc..aren't Bi-lingual, they don't need to be, due to the prevalence of English world wide.

The link wasn't to show what bi-lingualism is, but to back up my comment of it being widespread, as is the norm in internet forums.

Seomra Mushie

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

Going by our woeful form at learning other languages to fluency, I'm not convinced we'd be anywhere near fluent in English.

Er, also, I do know what bilingualism is. How patronising to link that!

Saying that though, our crapness at other languages appears to down the insistence on learning Irish in schools at the expense of other languages. Maybe if we did speak Irish fluently as a nation still, we'd be less defensive about learning foreign languages so maybe we would speak English fluently anyway. Who knows?

Cú Giobach wrote: »

The link wasn't to show what bi-lingualism is, but to back up my comment of it being widespread, as is the norm in internet forums.

And that is also patronising. I know bilingualism is widespread! But Ireland has never been as progressive on this score as other nation and our lack of borders with other countries didn't help either.

Mint Sauce

I have a few words and pharses, learnt through work and from the odd older relation. Would like to learn a bit more though, although sad to say I would rarely get the chance to use it.

Sin uile do anois.

cena

I think they should remove it from school. Teach them french etc at a younger age that well help them with jobs later on in life

Cú Giobach

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

Saying that though, our crapness at other languages appears to down the insistence on learning Irish in schools at the expense of other languages.
Maybe if we did speak Irish fluently as a nation still, we'd be less defensive about learning foreign languages so maybe we would speak English fluently anyway. Who knows?

But Ireland has never been as progressive on this score as other nation and our lack of borders with other countries didn't help either

So nothing to do with English being the main language of communication worldwide? Instead we are traumatised by Irish.
The fact that other English speaking countries also don't have a good record is irrelevant then.

And that is also patronising. I know bilingualism is widespread! .

You must be new to this kind of media, because it is quite common if someone makes a statement such as I did, without backing it up with a link, that there usually follows a flurry of post demanding "proof" of the statement.
You will just have to get used to it.

Seomra Mushie

Cú Giobach wrote: »

So nothing to do with English being the main language of communication worldwide? Instead we are traumatised by Irish.
The fact that other English speaking countries also don't have a good record is irrelevant then.

I don't know if it's irrelevant, I was just trying to muse on whether we would actually be fluent in English. There is no way to answer this, it was just interesting to consider. And as for Irish being traumatising? That's a little strong, but many of us don't have fond memories of learning it growing up.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

You must be new to this kind of media, because it is quite common if someone makes a statement such as I did, without backing it up with a link, that there usually follows a flurry of post demanding "proof" of the statement.
You will just have to get used to it.

I think common sense would probably inform you that most adults, except in remedial cases, know what bilingualism is and that many countries practice it. So it was safe to assume I was aware of it. No need to provide proof for everything.

AngryBollix

Irish is a piece of sh1t, dead, useless c*nt of a language and I wish the government had the stones to take it off life support.

AngryBollix

Wheres the "I hate the irish language" option?

Enkidu

Agricola wrote: »

Not really. If Irish was our first language, we would have an even more insular society than we already have, and thats saying something.

This is not really accurate, from a historical perspective. The Irish upper classes were closely connected with continental European intellectual life. Prior to the flight of the Earls upper-class Ireland was taking part in Renaissance. So if Irish was still spoken, the major change for most of us would be that we would be culturally more European.

AngryBollix

Enkidu wrote: »

This is not really accurate, from a historical perspective. The Irish upper classes were closely connected with continental European intellectual life. Prior to the flight of the Earls upper-class Ireland was taking part in Renaissance. So if Irish was still spoken, the major change for most of us would be that we would be culturally more European.

What language did they communicate in?

Enkidu

AngryBollix wrote: »

What language did they communicate in?

Latin and Bardic Standard Irish. Occasionally Greek.

Doc Ruby

Irish is the most awesome language on earth, where else do you get to call money "silver"? I love Irish and I think we should take pride and pleasure in our beautiful and ancient national language.

AngryBollix

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Irish is the most awesome language on earth, where else do you get to call money "silver"? I love Irish and I think we should take pride and pleasure in our beautiful and ancient national language.

That must be why its a minority language.

Cú Giobach

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

I don't know if it's irrelevant, I was just trying to muse on whether we would actually be fluent in English. There is no way to answer this, it was just interesting to consider. And as for Irish being traumatising? That's a little strong, but many of us don't have fond memories of learning it growing up.

There is no reason to assume we would be any different to any other Western European country, especially those with comparable populations, who all have very high levels of people proficient in English, and due to our geographical position we would probably have a higher level than many others.
Assuming the teaching of Irish has any effect on our ability to speak other European or world languages is quite odd, since we are no different to other English speaking countries in this regard.

I think common sense would probably inform you that most adults, except in remedial cases, know what bilingualism is and that many countries practice it. So it was safe to assume I was aware of it. No need to provide proof for everything.

Since I already stated "The link wasn't to show what bi-lingualism is" why have you repeated a statement about knowing what it is?
This is not a private conversation between you and me, and everything I (and others) write, is written with a wider readership in mind and you will find making assumptions about what such a wide audience knows and doesn't know can be quite problematic, and takes no account of the huge variety of people that read this particular forum.
If you don't like people backing up their statements with links and find it patronising, maybe you shouldn't be getting involved in this kind of media, you will find it happening quite a lot.

hondasam

AngryBollix wrote: »

Irish is a piece of sh1t, dead, useless c*nt of a language and I wish the government had the stones to take it off life support.

Your choice of words make the English language look so appealing.

3DataModem

Where's

"Native English speaker with Irish as important part of cultural heritage ( like Latin is to many countries), but no actual 'language' status."

?

Doc Ruby

AngryBollix wrote: »

That must be why its a minority language.

Your slurs don't even make sense, back to bed you, but wash the sheets first.

3DataModem

Doc Ruby wrote: »

, where else do you get to call money "silver"? .

France. And plenty of others.

Doc Ruby

3DataModem wrote: »

France. And plenty of others.

Fair play to them, I see they learned from the best.

SafeSurfer

The promotion of the Irish language and of the central role of the Catholic church were defining principles of the founders of the state in an attempt to promote an exclusive national identity.

This in and of itself may have been a noble strategy in differentiating Irish culture from that of our dominant neighbour.

However the policy became vindictive and small minded. Anything uncatholic or ungaelic were deemed unirish and undesirable. This was completely at odds with the role played by Irish people who would not identify with the new states narrow definition of Irishness,who had played a vital role in the fight for Irish freedom and the preservation of Irish culture and language.

Petty policies like preserving many state jobs for those fluent in Irish, the ban on divorce, making a pass in Irish a condition for entry to state universities and indeed for passing both the Inter cert and Leaving cert were contrary to the spirit of multiculturalism for which many fighting for an Irish republic had wanted.

It is testament to the success of the proponents of an Ireland that was Gaelic and catholic that both are still held as being synonymous with being Irish to this day.

Take for example the surprise that Ireland had a cricket team recently or the debate on non Gaelic games being played at Croke Park.

The politicization of the Irish language continues. The new terminal at Dublin airport has signs in English and Irish, not French not German. Is this practical? The same goes for Dublin bus with An Lar.

Official government documents and EU documents must be published in both Irish and English. Is this necessary? Or is it merely providing employment for a Gaelgori elite? The number of requests for EU legislation including the Nice and Lisbon treaties in Irish form would suggest that it is a waste of resources.

Irish is a sacred cow in this country but I would argue that it is a sacred cow that produces no milk and we can no longer afford to feed.

Seomra Mushie

Cú Giobach wrote: »

. Since I already stated "The link wasn't to show what bi-lingualism is" why have you repeated a statement about knowing what it is?

Yup, you said you linked it to show bilingualism was widespread... another very obvious fact that didn't require a link.

Doc Ruby

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The promotion of the Irish language and of the central role of the Catholic church were defining principles of the founders of the state in an attempt to promote an exclusive national identity.

This in and of itself may have been a noble strategy in differentiating Irish culture from that of our dominant neighbour.

However the policy became vindictive and small minded. Anything uncatholic or ungaelic were deemed unirish and undesirable. This was completely at odds with the role played by Irish people who would not identify with the new states narrow definition of Irishness,who had played a vital role in the fight for Irish freedom and the preservation of Irish culture and language.

Petty policies like preserving many state jobs for those fluent in Irish, the ban on divorce, making a pass in Irish a condition for entry to state universities and indeed for passing both the Inter cert and Leaving cert were contrary to the spirit of multiculturalism for which many fighting for an Irish republic had wanted.

It is testament to the success of the proponents of an Ireland that was Gaelic and catholic that both are still held as being synonymous with being Irish to this day.

Take for example the surprise that Ireland had a cricket team recently or the debate on non Gaelic games being played at Croke Park.

The politicization of the Irish language continues. The new terminal at Dublin airport has signs in English and Irish, not French not German. Is this practical? The same goes for Dublin bus with An Lar.

Official government documents and EU documents must be published in both Irish and English. Is this necessary? Or is it merely providing employment for a Gaelgori elite? The number of requests for EU legislation including the Nice and Lisbon treaties in Irish form would suggest that it is a waste of resources.

Irish is a sacred cow in this country but I would argue that it is a sacred cow that produces no milk and we can no longer afford to feed.

This is a new one, an "Irish language"="Catholic Church" troll.

SafeSurfer

Doc Ruby wrote: »

This is a new one, an "Irish language"="Catholic Church" troll.

You are misquoting me. The fact that Catholicism and the Irish language were promoted after independence is hardly a new idea.



http://gombeennation.blogspot.com/2011/09/making-of-gaelic-catholic-state.html

http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Irish_Ireland

http://www.humanrights.ie/index.php/2011/11/11/book-review-fischer-on-education-and-religion-in-ireland/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGrNf2RXmfk

Doc Ruby

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You are misquoting me. The fact that Catholicism and the Irish language were promoted after independence is hardly a new idea.

I'm not denying that, what I'm saying is there is no reason to bring the Catholic church and its entirely unsavoury effect on this country into the thread unless you were trying to make out the two were equivalent in some manner.

Which is a bit reprehensible I'm sure most would agree.

Eathrin

In the last two years of school (Doing LC) I've really stepped up my Irish and now speak just about fluently. Sadly, even from such a position I can expect to gradually lose that as there's no opportunity to actually practically use the language in this country!

Cú Giobach

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

Yup, you said you linked it to show bilingualism was widespread... another very obvious fact that didn't require a link.

You must be very new here to say that.
Or are you one of those people who naively believes that just because they know something, that everybody else automatically knows it too?

SafeSurfer

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I'm not denying that, what I'm saying is there is no reason to bring the Catholic church and its entirely unsavoury effect on this country into the thread unless you were trying to make out the two were equivalent in some manner.

Which is a bit reprehensible I'm sure most would agree.

My point is that they were both used as tools of exclusion. That somehow if you were catholic and Irish speaking you were somehow more Irish than a non catholic non Irish speaker. I think this is relevant in the context of the Ireland we live in today.