Would you prefer to speak Irish?

Enkidu

Wibbs wrote: »

Never mind that it's self reported and as we all know self reported surveys aren't worth jack. If they were all men on the internet would have ten inch mickeys

Have you ever considered that you might happen to post on a board frequented by fantastically endowed men? If the average boards user is loaded, hung(even the women) and has an IQ of 140, then I take them at their word, why would people that well hung lie?

Sleepy

deise go deo wrote: »

State support for the language has been luke warm at the best of times. The state has never really pushed Irish in any sphere, in education we have a compromise that dosent work, because the state failed to revive the language through education in the early days of the state, Irish fell into a kind of twighlight zone, the state could neither let it go entirely as that would be unpopular politically, but neither could it be bothered to do anything about the ineffective and often counterproductive system that Irish was thaught through.
The one actually usefull development in education for Irish, the Gaelscoil movement was not pushed by the state, it was pushed from the bottom up by parents, and often against staunch state oppisition, look up the history of the establishment of one of the first Gaelscoils in Dublin in Ballymun. State obstruction to Gaelscoils was not just in the early days either, it's still prevelant today, have a look at the hoops Gaelscoil Rath Tó in Meath had to jump through just to get state recognition.

Our education system is a complete mess. The teaching standard of Irish is a pretty low priority tbh. When was the last time you heard the CEO of a major employer complain about the lack of Irish skills in the population? Contrast that to the oft repeated calls for more IT or foreign language skills to meet the demands of the workplace.

Enkidu wrote: »

Although I understand your overall point, I just wanted to say that this technically isn't entirely accurate. It's quite common for speakers to use diglossia, where one of their languages are more naturally suited to certain areas of life. It's not a sign of a language not being real or living, in fact it's a common enough situation globally.

Then why bother translating the documents at all? English is more naturally suited to the area of government as the primary spoken language of the state. No need to waste money on translation services at all.

Secondly, why do you have native in quotation marks?

Because the vast majority of "native" Irish speakers simply aren't: they conduct their business in English. Yes, I'm aware there are some die-hard Irish speakers that use the language in their home lives but even the majority of those study, work and do most of their socialising through English.

In a similar vein I'd usually put "fluent" in quotation marks when discussing Irish speakers because, again, most reporting themselves to be so in the census aren't fluent by any stretch of the word. They may have gotten an A in Leaving Cert Irish but take the conversation outside of the scope of the course and they'd be utterly lost.

Sleepy

DyldeBrill wrote: »

you my friend must be very uneducated....

Can we have a crane to lift DyldeBrill off his high-horse here?

The arrogance you're displaying in this debate does your cause no favours. Rather than persuading someone with a point of view, you just allow them to dismiss the argument along with you.

Enkidu

Sleepy wrote: »

Then why bother translating the documents at all? English is more naturally suited to the area of government as the primary spoken language of the state. No need to waste money on translation services at all.

I'm not arguing for translating the documents, I'm just saying that, from a linguistic perspective, not having words for a certain sphere of business or law is not an indication of a dying language.

Because the vast majority of "native" Irish speakers simply aren't: they conduct their business in English.

Well, there are native speakers of Irish, so "native" speaker doesn't apply to them, rather only native speaker. Who is the group you're calling "native"?

Yes, I'm aware there are some die-hard Irish speakers that use the language in their home lives but even the majority of those study, work and do most of their socialising through English.

So? It doesn't affect whether they are native speakers or not. There are several people who are native Irish speakers, just because their parents spoke it, not because they're "die-hards". If they then go on to work or study in places where English is common that no more makes them non-native than Spanish students coming over here to study stop being native Spanish speakers.

In a similar vein I'd usually put "fluent" in quotation marks when discussing Irish speakers because, again, most reporting themselves to be so in the census aren't fluent by any stretch of the word. They may have gotten an A in Leaving Cert Irish but take the conversation outside of the scope of the course and they'd be utterly lost.

This I can understand.

DyldeBrill

Sleepy wrote: »

Can we have a crane to lift DyldeBrill off his high-horse here?

The arrogance you're displaying in this debate does your cause no favours. Rather than persuading someone with a point of view, you just allow them to dismiss the argument along with you.

On my high-horse? This is not arrogance, this is fact...

Arguments from both sides have been equally as strong and I've accepted a few very good points that were made, although I do not agree with a lot of them.

But stating that there is no Irish word for some of the terms in English is simply ignorance.Would you agree with his statement?

There are different dialects where people will mix a few words of English with their sentence like Galway.Where in Donegal you would not see this as much.

Sleepy

Enkidu wrote: »

I'm not arguing for translating the documents, I'm just saying that, from a linguistic perspective, not having words for a certain sphere of business or law is not an indication of a dying language.

Congratulations, I think you're the first lover of the Irish language I've come across that wouldn't advocate such utter waste of state and european funds.

Well, there are native speakers of Irish, so "native" speaker doesn't apply to them, rather only native speaker. Who is the group you're calling "native"?

So? It doesn't affect whether they are native speakers or not. There are several people who are native Irish speakers, just because their parents spoke it, not because they're "die-hards". If they then go on to work or study in places where English is common that no more makes them non-native than Spanish students coming over here to study stop being native Spanish speakers.

Is someone really considered a "native" Spanish speaker if they converse in English the majority of the time e.g. Irish parents living in Spain might use English in the home whereas their childs native language would be Spanish since that's what they spent most of their time speaking?

Sleepy

DyldeBrill wrote: »

you my friend must be very uneducated...

What other than arrogance would you consider that sentence to be DyldeBrill?

If I were to call you "very uneducated" for not having the same knowledge of areas I've studied that you haven't would you not be offended by that?


Now, I've not studied Irish since Junior Cert (I read comics and sat it at pass level for Leaving Cert rather than wasting my time on it tbh) but I'm still well aware that there are plenty of words in English for which there's no Irish equivalent so I hardly think it's a sign that Nothingbetter2d is "very uneducated" to surmise that the frequent usage of English words in Irish language programming is down to the lack of an appropriate Irish translation.

Enkidu

Sleepy wrote: »

Is someone really considered a "native" Spanish speaker if they converse in English the majority of the time e.g. Irish parents living in Spain might use English in the home whereas their childs native language would be Spanish since that's what they spent most of their time speaking?

Well the definition of a native speaker is a tricky one, but it's certainly not defined by which language you speak the most. In Catalonia many families might speak more Catalan or Spanish at home and it is common enough for a Catalan speaker to go to the rest of Spain and mostly speak Spanish, but they are still native speakers of Catalan. Perhaps you are using a different definition. Anyway there are several people who use Irish a lot because it is the traditional language of their home, not for reasons of being die-hards.

Sleepy wrote: »

Congratulations, I think you're the first lover of the Irish language I've come across that wouldn't advocate such utter waste of state and european funds.

Really? I'm honestly surprised sometimes by how bizarre the "language movement" must be in some people's experience. Wibbs posts above would be a decent enough outline of my position, our positions would be the same.

DyldeBrill

Sleepy wrote: »

What other than arrogance would you consider that sentence to be DyldeBrill?

If I were to call you "very uneducated" for not having the same knowledge of areas I've studied that you haven't would you not be offended by that?


Now, I've not studied Irish since Junior Cert (I read comics and sat it at pass level for Leaving Cert rather than wasting my time on it tbh) but I'm still well aware that there are plenty of words in English for which there's no Irish equivalent so I hardly think it's a sign that Nothingbetter2d is "very uneducated" to surmise that the frequent usage of English words in Irish language programming is down to the lack of an appropriate Irish translation.

I'll take that comment back and apologise, looking back it was a bit OTT

You see the thing your missing, although there may not be a word for it, there is a different term.You cannot directly translate English to Irish or visa versa.Its like any language.Its just how the script is written

deise go deo

Sleepy wrote: »

The teaching standard of Irish is a pretty low priority tbh.

I believe that was my point.

Cú Giobach

Sleepy wrote: »

Is someone really considered a "native" Spanish speaker if they converse in English the majority of the time e.g. Irish parents living in Spain might use English in the home whereas their childs native language would be Spanish since that's what they spent most of their time speaking?

If I moved to Germany today and spent the rest of my life speaking mostly German, I will still be a native English speaker till the day I die.
The term native speaker refers to ones mother tongue or possibly even tongues, a language acquired in childhood as you learned to talk, not a language you can for various reasons end up speaking the most.
People who are native speakers of a language would tend to do things like say mental arithmetic through that language, or in a sudden moment of stress cry out in that language, it goes very very deep and is inexorably entwined with our thought processes.

phonejacker

if i go to any Garda station can i demand to be spoken to as Gaeilge?

deise go deo

phonejacker wrote: »

if i go to any Garda station can i demand to be spoken to as Gaeilge?

Yes, though I would suggest asking politely would serve you better.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes, though I would suggest asking politely would serve you better.

Are you implying that one is incapable of speaking Irish to the guards without remaining civil?

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Are you implying that one is incapable of speaking Irish to the guards without remaining civil?

No, I was suggesting that asking politely would probably work better than demanding.

Sleepy

deise go deo wrote: »

I believe that was my point.

Can you not see the validity in mine though?

While I'm in favour of the removal of the compulsory status of Irish as an exam subject, I see no reason why it's teaching couldn't be modernised for those who wish to study it and would encourage any such move that didn't detract from more important study.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

No, I was suggesting that asking politely would probably work better than demanding.

Fair enough, I didn't take the word "demand" literally!

Wibbs

Enkidu wrote: »

Have you ever considered that you might happen to post on a board frequented by fantastically endowed men? If the average boards user is loaded, hung(even the women) and has an IQ of 140, then I take them at their word, why would people that well hung lie?

True. I suppose it's because I'm only 9 inches my self confidence took a hammering.

Da Shins Kelly

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I wish we didn't waste money forcing a dead language down people's throats. If you want to speak Irish, pay for lessons with your own money in your own time.

First of all, it's not a dead language and it's attitudes like this that are killing it and giving other people a bad attitude to it. Secondly, it's the Irish language, it's part of our heritage and history and if anything, there should be more time and effort put into improving the teaching of Irish and making it a better experience for learners.

It really bugs me how quickly people are prepared to just completely forget Irish and bury it instead of trying to hold onto something that holds serious cultural value, especially in an era when it seems that cultural identity is really being lost.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

First of all, it's not a dead language and it's attitudes like this that are killing it and giving other people a bad attitude to it. Secondly, it's the Irish language, it's part of our heritage and history and if anything, there should be more time and effort put into improving the teaching of Irish and making it a better experience for learners.

It really bugs me how quickly people are prepared to just completely forget Irish and bury it instead of trying to hold onto something that holds serious cultural value, especially in an era when it seems that cultural identity is really being lost.

I really don't go in for the "heritage" and "cultural" buzzwords. So what?

I'll agree that more time should be put into inproving it, but at the end of the day you have to let peopel choose for themselves - as this includes kids. It's the arrogant thinking that it SHOULD be done by EVERYONE and that EVERYONE should hang on to cultrual ideneity that pushes poeple away from it.

You have to accept that it's simply not as important to others as it is to yourself and holding this viewpoint is perfectly acceptable.

phonejacker

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

First of all, it's not a dead language and it's attitudes like this that are killing it and giving other people a bad attitude to it. Secondly, it's the Irish language, it's part of our heritage and history and if anything, there should be more time and effort put into improving the teaching of Irish and making it a better experience for learners.

It really bugs me how quickly people are prepared to just completely forget Irish and bury it instead of trying to hold onto something that holds serious cultural value, especially in an era when it seems that cultural identity is really being lost.

i agree with you 100%. the irish language is most certainly not dead. my first language is Irish and if you don't use irish your not very Irish at all, more British

DyldeBrill

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I really don't go in for the "heritage" and "cultural" buzzwords. So what?

I'll agree that more time should be put into inproving it, but at the end of the day you have to let peopel choose for themselves - as this includes kids. It's the arrogant thinking that it SHOULD be done by EVERYONE and that EVERYONE should hang on to cultrual ideneity that pushes poeple away from it.

You have to accept that it's simply not as important to others as it is to yourself and holding this viewpoint is perfectly acceptable.

I didn't think his comments were too pushy by any means! It is our heritage and therefore more time should be put into improving the teaching of it...exactly what he said.People are ranting on a bit too much here.

If the language went tomorrow, would you not feel that a piece of our identity would go with that?

DyldeBrill

phonejacker wrote: »

i agree with you 100%. the irish language is most certainly not dead. my first language is Irish and if you don't use irish your not very Irish at all, more British

I can see this maybe getting a few dislikes

I'd consider Irish as my 1st language also, but I have many friends that don't speak a word of Irish, but they are as irish as they get.I wouldn't deem them British by any means

Iwasfrozen

DyldeBrill wrote: »

I didn't think his comments were too pushy by any means! It is our heritage and therefore more time should be put into improving the teaching of it...exactly what he said.People are ranting on a bit too much here.

If the language went tomorrow, would you not feel that a piece of our identity would go with that?

There's that "our" word again. Stop speaking for the irish nation. You speak only for yourself. If irish was gone tomorrow it wouldn't matter to me because I don't hold it in any value or consider it any part of my identity.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

DyldeBrill wrote: »

I didn't think his comments were too pushy by any means! It is our heritage and therefore more time should be put into improving the teaching of it...exactly what he said.People are ranting on a bit too much here.

If the language went tomorrow, would you not feel that a piece of our identity would go with that?

Because he (and you) fail to take into account the concept of individual freedom.

A lot of poeple feel that nationality is overrated and heritige and culture are, as I said buzzwords. What is the importance of "heritage"? What is the importance of "culture"? Culture to me is just automatically doing the same thing over and over again without thinking. So why should I learn a language that is of more importance to you than to me?

And can explain exactly what you mean by "our identity"?

DyldeBrill

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There's that "our" word again. Stop speaking for the irish nation. You speak only for yourself. If irish was gone tomorrow it wouldn't matter to me because I don't hold it in any value or consider it any part of my identity.

And that's completely fine! Our as in us Irish speakers.And if you don't speak Irish or care for it, for the 100th time its perfectly alright! I have not forced Irish onto anyone here! I have argued things that have been said about Irish language such as funding and so on.

If you don't speak it...FINE!


Tír gan saol, tír gan anam and I stand by that quote a 100%. Maybe I should re-phrase the "our identity" things are taken way to literally here!

In MY opinion I think the Irish language makes me unique, it makes me proud to be Irish, It lets me understand my native tongue.I love being able to read through old Irish, reading the thoughts of a nation where people only spoke Irish.Yes its not a najor language now but it once was.Just as the french are a proud nation, they would consider their language part as their cultural heritage, and believe it or not heritage is not a buzzword to everyone.It might be for you, but with others it means quite a lot.

Sorry for my past wording as I know you love to pick up on it.I'm talking about ME here

4zn76tysfajdxp

phonejacker wrote: »

i agree with you 100%. the irish language is most certainly not dead. my first language is Irish and if you don't use irish your not very Irish at all, more British

What does British have to do with it? Americans speak English, they're not British.

Schapiro

I'd rather be a native speaker of Irish, with English as a second language.

I won't waste my breath trying to explain why, not on here anyway. But for anyone who is interested in why it IS important to speak Irish, or any minority or indigenous language, especially in a growing global economy and culture, I urge you to read the book "Vanishing Voices" by Daniel Nettle & Suzanne Romaine.

"We would be outraged if Notre Dame Cathedral or the Great Pyramid of Giza were demolished to make way for modern buildings. We should be similarly appalled when languages - monuments to human genius far more ancient and complex than anything we have built with our hands - erode." -David Harrison

DyldeBrill

I must say Stephen Fry did quite a bit for the Irish language! Fair play to him being on Ros na Rún also!

Cú Giobach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There's that "our" word again. Stop speaking for the irish nation. You speak only for yourself. If irish was gone tomorrow it wouldn't matter to me because I don't hold it in any value or consider it any part of my identity.

Interesting, but really really sad.
Nothing but what you consider part of your identity or culture has any value to you or is of any worth.
As someone who feels all cultures have a value, and enrich the human experience with variety and "colour", comments like that make me shudder to the core because I know you are actually serious.
What makes it worse is that you are not talking about some far off obscure culture, but that of your neighbours, obviously not your friend's as surely you would value or mourn the loss of part of a friend's culture even if it isn't yours, though I suppose the word "empathy" isn't in your vocabulary.

Edit: I just want to add to this and say regarding "our", and I think I might be speaking for many many people. To me "our" means all the people of Ireland whoever they are, for example, I would in any argument say Protestantism is part of our culture even though that is not my family's faith nor part of my own personal culture, but it is part of my culture as an Irishman.

smokedeels

No need for it. I speak the language of the culture I identify with.

It's nice to learn another language too but Irish isn't useful to me.

Sleepy

phonejacker wrote: »

i agree with you 100%. the irish language is most certainly not dead. my first language is Irish and if you don't use irish your not very Irish at all, more British

Well done. You've just helped hurt the language even further.

This "you're not Irish if you don't speak the language / play GAA / practice an a-la-carte bastardised version of Catholicism / vote Fianna Fail / wear the green jersey / conform to my way of thinking" bull**** does nothing to further your cause.

Wibbs

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

First of all, it's not a dead language and it's attitudes like this that are killing it and giving other people a bad attitude to it. Secondly, it's the Irish language, it's part of our heritage and history and if anything, there should be more time and effort put into improving the teaching of Irish and making it a better experience for learners.

It really bugs me how quickly people are prepared to just completely forget Irish and bury it instead of trying to hold onto something that holds serious cultural value, especially in an era when it seems that cultural identity is really being lost.

Are you fully fluent as Gaelige? If not, how can you have such an opinion? If not, what are you hoping to prove? If not, your argument falls dead on it's arse.

Cú Giobach

Wibbs wrote: »

Are you fully fluent as Gaelige? If not, how can you have such an opinion? If not, what are you hoping to prove? If not, your argument falls dead on it's arse.

I'd like to comment about fluency in a language, and one's support for or feelings towards that language.
My point will be that one's level of fluency does not equate to one's level of support for a language.

Firstly, the important issue that to attain a high level of fluency in any language takes a lot of time, effort and preferably immersion, so because of the very nature of modern life, even with the best of will these may not be possible for many people.
So, would not having time for Irish lessons because of struggling to pay a mortgage, show anything other than someone feels keeping a roof over their family's head is more important to them than "saving" the Irish language?

Secondly, a person could be a genuinely fanatical supporter of a language, but for what could be any number of reasons is just beginning to learn that language, with the ultimate aim of becoming fluent.
So, does the fact that someone is just begining to learn a language somhow equate to a lesser level of support, than that of someone who is further along in the process?

Thirdly, many people have a genuine difficulty learning another language and would never really attain a good level of fluency no matter how hard they try.
So, would someone's difficulty with language learning somehow equate to a lesser level of support, despite the fact that they are actually trying to learn it?

And finally, the very thought of trying to learn another language can fill many people with dread, and though they might love to speak another language, they often find the hardest hurdle is actually making a start.
In any group of (adult) language learners an oft heard comment is "I've wanted to do this for years, but was always nervous about taking the first step".

Remember now, this is only about "level of fluency" not about people who would claim to support, but would never attempt to use what they have of a language, or even try to learn it.

Wibbs

Agreed on all points CG. I myself would support the language and would truly hate to see it die out, just not to the degree of others. However in the Irish language environment in particular, there seems to be a crazily high proportion of people who all claim to support it, sometimes quite vociferously, but yet have never learned or even attempted to learn to speak it. Maybe it's that unique Irish mindset of "well it is and it isn't". We do love our contradictions

Dannyboy83

The bit I don't understand is the way people constantly say:
"I'd love to be able to .........."
"I wish I would have ........"
etc.
(i.e. I wish somebody else would do the work for me, I'm not going to)

Why do we rarely hear:
"Actually I'm going to get off my hole and do something about this"
"Actually I'm going to sit down this evening after work and study for an hour"

Many people here seem to wish they could speak Irish without doing any of the work. I think this is a trait of a mono-lingual population.
Monolingual speakers do not understand how much work it takes just to maintain a second language, not to mind learn it.

It's not something you can just acquire and possess, like a Plasma TV.
It's much more like something you have to work at on a regular basis - like the ability to run a full marathon or to bench-press 200kg.
If you stop working at it, the ability fades.

Having said all that - if you really want to do it, you can.
So what is stopping people?

Maybe it's a problem with my understanding of people? Is that it?
When I hear people say, I'd love to speak Irish - I think they really mean it.
Maybe I should really be just treating it the same as the overweight women in work who start a diet every monday morning and finish it by lunch?

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Having said all that - if you really want to do it, you can.
So what is stopping people?

Thats actually a very good question, obviously there is a certain amount of wistfullness when people say things like that, but there are also pratical concerns, learning a language is a time consuming business, and it takes a good while before you start seeing the results.

Another issue is that there can often be a certain amount of anxiety when it comes to speaking Irish, fear of making mistakes or meeting someone with a chip on their sholder against the language.

I have encountered a certain perception that if your not fluent then your not good enough. If someone hears me speaking Irish they tend to assume that I'm from a Gaeltacht area or fluent in the language(I'm neither btw), the idea that someone would speak a language without being fluent somehow seems exceptional.
I have often met people who say they can't speak Irish, and end up talking to them in Irish for an hour, its often not that they can't but that they don't have the confidence to.

Dannyboy83

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The bit I don't understand is the way people constantly say:
"I'd love to be able to .........."
"I wish I would have ........"
etc.
(i.e. I wish somebody else would do the work for me, I'm not going to)

Why do we rarely hear:
"Actually I'm going to get off my hole and do something about this"
"Actually I'm going to sit down this evening after work and study for an hour"

+1

I'm actively trying to learn Irish, I was raised in the UK so Irish is to me a completely foreign language.
I would guess that my current level of Irish is similar to third or fifth year primary school.
I know this because I help the kids with their homework and can understand the coursework.

It takes a lot of hard work to learn a language and it needs time and dedication, sometimes I just give up for a few weeks and then get back into it.

phonejacker

any suggestions of how could the Irish language could be revived?

KatiexKOUTURE--

I'd love to be able to speak the language and I'm doing my Leaving at the moment so I am still learning.

I have a problem though with how it's taught in this country, I've been learning the language for 13 years and still really only know a very small amount of Irish. Surely we should have a nation of fluent speakers if the teaching was up to scratch?

IcedOut

Id prefer to speak Chinese. Then the people that work in the take-away will actually understand me.

KatiexKOUTURE--

KatiexKOUTURE-- wrote: »

I'd love to be able to speak the language and I'm doing my Leaving at the moment so I am still learning.

I have a problem though with how it's taught in this country, I've been learning the language for 13 years and still really only know a very small amount of Irish. Surely we should have a nation of fluent speakers if the teaching was up to scratch?

I suspect that the vast majority of those children have parents who couldn't give a fúck about Irish and the children pick up on it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

I suspect that the vast majority of those children have parents who couldn't give a fúck about Irish and the children pick up on it.

More the education system, to be honest. If anything, parents are quiet happy to push for bilingual kids.

Ikky Poo2

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

More the education system, to be honest. If anything, parents are quiet happy to push for bilingual kids.

TBH I’ve yet to find a parent who is supportive of their children learning Irish, except those who have sent them to the gaelscoil of course.

NinjaK

phonejacker wrote: »

any suggestions of how could the Irish language could be revived?

teach it in school?!

GaryIrv93

at the end of the day though all a language is (including irish and english), is how we use our vocal chords to make a sound. nothing more than that really.
what's funny is with Irish, many people are so desperate to keep it alive, but they don't seem to give a **** about these languages which have died out. why should irish be any different? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct_language#Recently_extinct_languages

irish just isin't useful in this day and age, most if not all people in this country can speak English better than Iish, could people not just accept that we speak english as our general spoken language? there's not a chance people will start speaking irish as fluently as english in this country, even if some new policy was introduced that people would get executed on the spot if they spoke english instead of irish.

i can understand that some people want to keep it alive, and value it, but why is it forced on the rest of the country to ''learn'' it in school? most people will never speak a word of it again, and the fact that its compulsory - which violates the most basic human right: the right to freedom and the right to speak their own language, is just disgusting. it should become non-compulsory in schools - thank you fine gael for copping that on, which the other parties didn't! let people speak and choose their own language, and we'd have no problems. if you want to speak irish, then go ahead, but it shouldn't be forced in people like myself, who don't want to speak it.

dlofnep

Wibbs wrote: »

Agreed on all points CG. I myself would support the language and would truly hate to see it die out, just not to the degree of others. However in the Irish language environment in particular, there seems to be a crazily high proportion of people who all claim to support it, sometimes quite vociferously, but yet have never learned or even attempted to learn to speak it. Maybe it's that unique Irish mindset of "well it is and it isn't". We do love our contradictions

This is true. I setup an Irish group in my city a few years back.. We've had over 100 people pass through the doors.. but only about 12-14 people have come back with any regularity.

So while I certainly believe that many people would love to be able to speak Irish, not as many are willing to put in the effort required. Which if I must be honest, isn't even that much. I pop into a pub once a week for a coffee/tea - sometimes a few pints if my health permits. It's a nice social meet, without any classroom pressure.. A real genuine environment that's not forced.

I think some of those however who have not come back have probably felt out of their depths when sitting down for the first time, and hearing everyone conversing in Irish. It's new for many people to hear Irish being spoken naturally, with free-flowing conversation.. They feel as if they are not up to it or good enough.

Dannyboy83

KatiexKOUTURE-- wrote: »

I'd love to be able to speak the language and I'm doing my Leaving at the moment so I am still learning.

I have a problem though with how it's taught in this country, I've been learning the language for 13 years and still really only know a very small amount of Irish. Surely we should have a nation of fluent speakers if the teaching was up to scratch?

This is part of the (very unfortunate) misconception we have due to being a monolingual nation - the idea that we can reform the system and produce fluent speakers. That's not possible.
To attain fluency requires immersion, to retain fluency requires sustained bursts of high exposure.

I had the same misconceptions myself until I started learning languages independently. You naturally think after 13 years of language learning you should be fluent.
Of course, if it were the case, then people would become fluent much more often. Those who do become fluent actively pursue the language, in a way the average pupil does not - usually by going to gaelscoils, going to Irish college, being educated through Irish, speaking Irish in the family home or living in a Gaelteacht.

I'll bet even the brain boxes you went to school with who got 10 As in the leaving cert, even they are not fluent, if they have only learned though the school system.
Brain boxes are able to overcome the inadequacies of their teachers/system to achieve proficiency. So why are they not fluent in Irish?
The answer is because they would not need to overcome the education system - they would need to overcome the general population's apathy and resistance.

It goes to the heart of the debate really:
Q.What do people hope will be the outcome of reforming Irish?

If an Irish person believes that we can reform the curriculum and begin to produce fluent speakers, then they are fundamentally mistaken.
You could have the very best teachers in the world, following the very best methods. It will still never be achieved.
We didn't produce fluent Latin & Greek speakers in the 50s.
We didn't produce fluent Irish speakers in the 30s or the 90s.
We don't even produce fluent French & German speakers now.
We are asking the impossible of Irish teachers.

Our schools will never produce fluent Irish speakers, unless they all become Gaelscoils, Irish becomes the dominant language, and a significant body of the population are prepared to sacrifice the dominance of Hiberno-English.
The best we can do in the current Ireland is help you to prepare yourself for becoming fluent.

This is what they had to do in Wales.
People are looking at the Welsh system, wondering how they are managing to achieve such success compared to us.
People's minds are blown by the fact that Israel achieved full penetration in a generation.
People are looking at the school system as though it holds the key.......people are looking in the wrong place.
What do these nations have in common?
The answer is that the all sacrificed the dominance of one language, in order to promote a different language, be it Yiddish, Russian, German, English etc.

Now - compare Ireland:
We pay lip service to the language in school, we never hear it spoken in the home, or among friends. We do not even practise or use the language, not to mind immerse ourselves.
After school, you will never hear the language spoken again, unless you go hunting in search of it.
Then we are confused why our system is not delivering results.

If you spent 13 years reading about how to drive a car, you will probably be technically very good in some aspects, but unless you actually sit into the car and actually drive, then all you have ever done is prepare for a driving test that was never going to come anyway, and if it ever does come, you are not going to be a good driver....you've never dealt with the high pressure situation of driving a car at 100kmph with cars coming the opposite direction, the road becoming narrorwer, imperfect weather conditions............. how could you be a competent driver in fairness?


In every country, there is always a dominant language.
I will take Lithuania as an example because it's a country I'm familiar with.
In the capital, Vilnius, the dominant language is Russian. Polish is also prominent. Lithuanian is not very frequently spoken.
In the second city, Kaunas - This is the nationalist city - You will get funny looks or may even be spat at in the street if you are heard speaking Russian.
If you want your kids to learn Russian in Kaunas, then you send them to a Russian school, they will be educated through Russian, they will have Russian friends.
Russian must become an active part of their daily life in school, at home and among friends.
If you took the Irish system to Kaunas and expected the pupils to become fluent Russian speakers, they would probably have you checked into a psychological ward for examination.

To achieve fluency you need immersion.
Immersion in Ireland would require:
A) All primary schools become Gaelscoils
Education is conducted through Irish
C) The general population would need to begin conversing in Irish and desist from speaking English, in public and in private


I didn't particularly like language learning in school nor was I was particularly good at it, just average really.
After school, I discovered I really enjoyed learning language and actually had a bit of a talent for it.
I became fluent in Polish, took me about 3 years to get a conversational level, then the real work started, although it was good fun.
In all honesty, I now struggle desperately to retain the language, even tho I am exposed to Russian on a daily basis and there is a large similarity.
I simply don't get the exposure I once had.


Irish people really need to realise that unless they are prepared to get up off their armchair and actively start learning and using the language, then they are no different from the same people who publicly proclaim they wish to look like David Beckham, but simply won't/don't want to go without those 5 pints on a Saturday night.

grenache

The government needs to stop paying the language 'lip service'. Either fully suppport it by creating a proper network of gaelscoilenna, leading to a bi-lingual society, or else just leave it go the way of Cornish.

Just cut out this half @rsed way of promoting it. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing properly. The current system is keeping it alive, but the language is in no way thriving. The overwhelming majority of Irish people have nothing more than basic Irish - a damning indictment of how Irish is taught in our schools.

Like i said, lip service.

a-k-47

Love to see this poll in scandinavia or anywhere else in europe, 38% not wanting to speak their native tongue.:o shame.