The Bishops invite to the Pope.Being Catholic in Fine Gael.What's the story.??

CDfm

CDfm wrote: »

Is the Pope catholic ?

Nodin wrote: »

Again - you're making a very large number of assumptions with seemingly no back up. Again.......If you've something substantive to add to add meat to your points, please provide it.

The Pope is in fact the Leader of the Catholic Church. Here is your proof.

The Pope (from Latin: papa; from Greek: πάππας (pappas),[1] a child's word for father)[2] is the Bishop of Rome, a position that makes him the leader of the worldwide Catholic Church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope

irishh_bob

Manach wrote: »

1- The status of the Vatican according the text, "Handbook of International Law" - it is that of a state.
2- Besides domestic considerations, we Catholics make up a fair number of adherents. To tap into that worldwide community via the Vatican might be considered a good investment.

catholics can still tap the wordwide community of catholics , ever heard of facebook or the internet in general , the embassy is a facility for officaldom within diplomatic circles , the church ( people ) never had access to such channells so why would they miss them , as i said , they can network through the internet

Spacedog

Min wrote: »

The problem for FG is they know the people know the ambassador to the Holy See was removed not for financial reasons as the lies told by Eamon Gilmore. Eamon Gilmore removed the ambassador out of Rome because he is a fanatical atheist who has come from a communist background in the workers party. A party that had looked for aid from the Soviet Union, East Germany, China and even North Korea.
Back in the late 1970's Eamon Gilmore was busy taking the union of Students in Ireland to the communist world festival of youth and students.
Sure only a few years later the communists tried to kill the Pope. It is no coincidence that Gilmore is going on about the BRIC nations given he has good contacts in Russia and China going back to his Workers party days.

I think some in FG are finally starting to see who they actually got into bed with.
The deluded Eamon Gilmore for Taoiseach, Frankfurt's way or Labour's way.
It is time for FG to show some backbone and take this issue to Gilmore, who had only chose to tell lies on why the embassy was closed.

Yeah, it's the communists!!!, and I guess the priests f**kin kids had nothing to do with it? They were probably communist priests from the KGB out to discredit the church eh? Were through the looking glass here people.

Manach

Ah yes the Internet - that the device that allows people to become instant experts on diverse subjects via a "Search" function without the need to read books and/or get an education.

irishh_bob

Manach wrote: »

Ah yes the Internet - that the device that allows people to become instant experts on diverse subjects via a "Search" function without the need to read books and/or get an education.

you stated that due to the embassy being closed ,catholics would no longer have a means of communicating with thier global bretheren , i pointed to the fact that the embassys were only ever used by clerics and politicans and in an offical diplomatic capacity , if your concerns and requirements are practical based , facebook should be more usefull to lay catholicis when it comes to speaking to fellow catholics in brazil , usa , philippines than the embassy in the vatican

i happen to think that all this talk of listening posts is a smokescreen , in reality , a minority of staunch religous catholics are up in arms because they feel thier priveledge is slipping in the state

CDfm

irishh_bob wrote: »

i happen to think that all this talk of listening posts is a smokescreen , in reality , a minority of staunch religous catholics are up in arms because they feel thier priveledge is slipping in the state

Don't you think it a little bit strange that in the links that I posted and especially the photo's the lenghts these politicians are going to to be perceived as devout catholic by their supporters.

The politicians are supplying the PR image locally and this is not the international stage they are on but national & local.

* Doffs hat to Tip O'Neill*

Manach

irishh_bob wrote: »

you stated that due to the embassy being closed ,catholics would no longer have a means of communicating with thier global bretheren , i pointed to the fact that the embassys were only ever used by clerics and politicans and in an offical diplomatic capacity , if your concerns and requirements are practical based , facebook should be more usefull to lay catholicis when it comes to speaking to fellow catholics in brazil , usa , philippines than the embassy in the vatican

i happen to think that all this talk of listening posts is a smokescreen , in reality , a minority of staunch religous catholics are up in arms because they feel thier priveledge is slipping in the state

I am aware and am part of the global Catholic online community. However, at an official level, where the State apparatus is involved, is where a facebook present is hardly appropriate. Then again, if Ireland could reduce expenses by setting up facebook page per country all well and good. But, AFAIR based on the text "Diplomacy" by the Sir Harold Nicholson, Diplomacy is a nuanced world within a world, with their own language and etiquette which relies heavily on interpersonal meetings and a shared understanding of the world. This is something the internet can not replace.

Min

Spacedog wrote: »

Yeah, it's the communists!!!, and I guess the priests f**kin kids had nothing to do with it? They were probably communist priests from the KGB out to discredit the church eh? Were through the looking glass here people.

According to the liar that is Eamon Gilmore, it had nothing to do with the child abuse scandal.

Min

kraggy wrote: »

Why should we have an embassy to a "State" whose existence is solely related to a particular religion?

Should we have diplomatic buildings and extra embassy staff in a specially provided consulate in Mecca, Saudi Arabia?

How about extra ambassadorial staff in a special little buliding beside the Watchtower building in New York?

Good riddance to what has always been an unnecessary set-up.

Is Mecca now not a part of the state of Saudi Arabia?

Vatican city does not belong to the Italian state, this was decided under the Lateran treaty which gave full sovereignty to the Holy See.

irishh_bob

Manach wrote: »

I am aware and am part of the global Catholic online community. However, at an official level, where the State apparatus is involved, is where a facebook present is hardly appropriate. Then again, if Ireland could reduce expenses by setting up facebook page per country all well and good. But, AFAIR based on the text "Diplomacy" by the Sir Harold Nicholson, Diplomacy is a nuanced world within a world, with their own language and etiquette which relies heavily on interpersonal meetings and a shared understanding of the world. This is something the internet can not replace.

diplomatic relations between ireland and the vatican are purely tokenistic and ceremonial , thier are no hard political or economic issues discussed and even they are discusses , the vatican has no influence in theese areas , some people might like to think that religon is the most important thing in the world to people and politicans alike but it isnt

CDfm

Min wrote: »

According to the liar that is Eamon Gilmore, it had nothing to do with the child abuse scandal.

Would this not normally be a Cabinet decision not an individual ministers decision ? i.e. the decision to close an embassy is national policy

Has it been put to the vote and if so what was the split ?

Manach wrote: »

. Then again, if Ireland could reduce expenses by setting up facebook page per country all well and good. But, AFAIR based on the text "Diplomacy" by the Sir Harold Nicholson, Diplomacy is a nuanced world within a world, with their own language and etiquette which relies heavily on interpersonal meetings and a shared understanding of the world. This is something the internet can not replace.

What do you make about how politicians are demonstrating/communicating this to their supporters.

They seem to be on the offensive.

Nodin

Min wrote: »

Is Mecca now not a part of the state of Saudi Arabia?

......

...actually the whole thing is a bit of a red herring, as Mecca is a holy site, not the HQ of Islam, or home of some head figure.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

The Pope is in fact the Leader of the Catholic Church. Here is your proof.

Hilarious. I note you've still provided nothing to back up your assertions visa vis Labour, FG etc.

CDFM wrote:

Don't you think it a little bit strange that in the links that I posted and especially the photo's the lenghts these politicians are going to to be perceived as devout catholic by their supporters.

As pointed out earlier, Michael D is now essentially an apolitical figure, and will doubtless be turning up at Church of Ireland, Orthodox and whatever else functions its deemed appropriate to his office in pursuit of his duties.

I still await any concrete linkage - indeed any linkage at all - from you concering Michael D Higgins and the issue of the Embassy closure.

Manach wrote:

Diplomacy is a nuanced world within a world, with their own language and etiquette which relies heavily on interpersonal meetings and a shared understanding of the world. This is something the internet can not replace.

...which is why we have embassies around the world. The vatican is not the influence it was, nor is it remotely sensible to indulge its notions of grandeur with regards to having a seperate ambassador to Italy given the straits we find ourselves in.

Min wrote:

Vatican city does not belong to the Italian state, this was decided under the Lateran treaty which gave full sovereignty to the Holy See.

Earlier you claimed we had "three ambassadors in Brussels, two in Switzerland, can't remember was it two or three in the USA". Have you found any information to back this up? It seems to be in error.

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

Hilarious. I note you've still provided nothing to back up your assertions visa vis Labour, FG etc.



As pointed out earlier, Michael D is now essentially an apolitical figure, and will doubtless be turning up at Church of Ireland, Orthodox and whatever else functions its deemed appropriate to his office in pursuit of his duties.

I still await any concrete linkage - indeed any linkage at all - from you concering Michael D Higgins and the issue of the Embassy closure.

Its an alright thread isn't it.

Lots of media links to politicians and their local and national profiles.

The thread isn't about me but about the links and articles I came across on local and national politicians media profiles and catholic profiles.

Has President Higgins had an invite to the Eucharistic Congress ? Will he attend ?

Lots of them seem to be boosting their catholic credentials.

A huge surprise for me by the way and an accidental discovery.

President Michael D Higgins visits Catholic Youth Care

Today (Thursday 26th January) President Michael D Higgins visited the Catholic Youth Care Head Office, following an invitation issued by the organisation in November.

Catholic Youth Care (CYC) is the youth services agency of the Archdiocese of Dublin. CYC provides direct youth work services and also support for voluntary youth work in Dublin, Wicklow and parts of county Kildare.

Father Jim Caffrey, Director of Catholic Youth Care said, “We invited the President to visit our head office here in Arran Quay. The President passes by our office regularly in the course of his duties and we were delighted when he accepted our invitation.”

“We realise the many demands placed on the President’s time in the early stages of his presidency and are delighted that he has taken time out of his busy schedule to visit us. Visits like this are such wonderful occasions and help to boost the spirit of the organisation at the start of what is likely to be a challenging year for many.”

A press shot more pics here

http://www.dublindiocese.ie/image-gallery/president-michael-d-higgins-visits-catholic-youth-care

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

Its an alright thread isn't it.

Lots of media links to politicians (.......)discovery.

You made a series of very specific claims. You have failed thus far to back them up. You haven't even shown that the attendance of religous services by the Taoiseach is anything new.

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

You made a series of very specific claims. You have failed thus far to back them up. You haven't even shown that the attendance of religous services by the Taoiseach is anything new.

Claims me ?

I posted lots of links and pics that are more substantial than any comments I made.

Gilmore's 'not an inch on Vatican' sparks crisis

Rosary beads at FG meeting as Noonan says 'Enda is a better Catholic than me'


By DANIEL McCONNELL Chief Reporter and jOHN DRENNAN

Sunday February 05 2012

THE Government has been plunged into its first crisis after Tanaiste Eamon Gilmore yesterday categorically rejected Fine Gael calls to reverse the decision to close the Irish embassy to the Vatican.
The astonishing row over the Vatican embassy comes on the heels of a series of spats between the coalition over cuts in the Budget, which have led to a significant deterioration of relations between FG and Labour in recent weeks.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gilmores-not-an-inch-on-vatican-sparks-crisis-3010353.html

I am not a member of any party and I don't attend any church but this is some headline.

Rosary beads at FG meeting as Noonan says 'Enda is a better Catholic than me'

Manach

irishh_bob wrote: »

diplomatic relations between ireland and the vatican are purely tokenistic and ceremonial , thier are no hard political or economic issues discussed and even they are discusses , the vatican has no influence in theese areas , some people might like to think that religon is the most important thing in the world to people and politicans alike but it isnt

Personally I reckon people tend to underrate that which they do not understand. In my case, that's Jedward. In Stalin's case, that was the Church - asking "How Many Divisions does the Pope of Rome Have?". What the Vatican does have is soft power which has lasted longer than the USSR. I lack irishh_bob's insight into the Irish diplomatic service and their procedures - but as there are many diplomatic missions present at the Vatican, and the opportunity to network within such a small environment is unparallelled.
As for influence, according to a recent speech by US Senator McConnell, Catholic charities provide services for 1/6 of patients. This represents economic activity which Irish diplomats might find of interest and represents a return on investment as measurable as various county council trade missions abroad.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

Claims me ?

I posted lots of links and pics that are more substantial than any comments I made.

Yes, you.

Explain what the link is supposed to be between Michael D and the vatican embassy etc. Whats the point of highlighting his attendance at religous events/ceremonies?

Explain what the significance of Enda's mass attendance is supposed to be.

Give some basis and flesh out your claim that " the leadership & government are out of step with the rank and file of their respective parties ".

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, you.

I am honoured that you think I control the presidential diary.

Explain what the link is supposed to be between Michael D and the vatican embassy etc. Whats the point of highlighting his attendance at religous events/ceremonies?

It is/was part of his public image with the voters.

Part of the Eucharistic Congress takes part in the Phoenix Park where he lives.

Explain what the significance of Enda's mass attendance is supposed to be.

Give some basis and flesh out your claim that " the leadership & government are out of step with the rank and file of their respective parties ".

It is his public profile and it has come to national prominence in recent months.

Its mad that all these religious references are surfacing.

Why is it happening ?

The two biggest partners seem to be eyeing up for an election. Their PR is how they connect with voters.

Maybe Labour needs some fresh protest campaign's , how 'bout

"Keep your Sacrament from our President" or "Keep your Rosary away from our Embassy"

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

I am honoured that you think I control the presidential diary.

It is/was part of his public image with the voters.

When did Michael D Higgins bring either religion in general or the church into the election?

What "is/was" part of his "public image" with the Voters?

CDfm wrote: »

It is his public profile and it has come to national prominence in recent months.

Its mad that all these religious references are surfacing.

There's absolutely nothing new or "mad" about it. Enda condemned the Vatican on 20th July 2011 . Gilmore announced the Embassy closure on 4th November 2011.

Yet here we are
Enda at Lenihans funeral - 14th June 2011
http://www.passedaway.com/in_the_news/hundreds_attend_funeral_of_former_irish_minister/554/

Enda at Funeral mass of RUC man April 5th, 2011
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/IPg9_fyks_m/Funeral+Takes+Place+Police+Constable+Ronan/7XDo9hBGkVo/Martin+McGuinness

Enda at 1916 Service May 5th 2011
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0504/rising.html

...and so on.

I'd say the only thing "surfacing" is your interest in whether or not enda kenny attends religous services.

CDfm wrote: »

"Keep your Sacrament from our President" or "Keep your Rosary away from our Embassy"

Whats that to do with anything? Why would Michael D need a campaign on his behalf I have to say that its very difficult to know what you're trying to say here.

Nodin

I asked the question

Give some basis and flesh out your claim that " the leadership & government are out of step with the rank and file of their respective parties

I'm still awaiting a reply.

mikeyboy

It's just a thought but isn't it perfectly possible for the Taoiseach to be a religiously devout Roman Catholic and still believe that the diplomatic mission to the Vatican serves no useful purpose?

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

I asked the question



I'm still awaiting a reply.

It is not my opinions but those that showed up in the press. Read the links.

mikeyboy wrote: »

It's just a thought but isn't it perfectly possible for the Taoiseach to be a religiously devout Roman Catholic and still believe that the diplomatic mission to the Vatican serves no useful purpose?

It is the backbenchers that have acted.

Backbenchers have some power but are under the whip for legislation.

There is also a lot of material being published about Labour being anti-catholic

http://www.irishcatholic.ie/site/content/labour-set-ban-catholics-civil-service

http://theamerican.ie/catholic-schools-feel-bullied-and-intimidated-by-irish-politics/

http://irishcatholics.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=catholics&action=display&thread=711

Have you seen any links that show a different perspective.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

It is not my opinions but those that showed up in the press. Read the links.

..............

I've seen nothing that agrees with the thrust of your argument as I understand it, hence the question.

I await a response to -

When did Michael D Higgins bring either religion in general or the church into the election?

What "is/was" part of his "public image" with the Voters?

CDfm wrote:

Keep your Sacrament from our President" or "Keep your Rosary away from our Embassy"

Whats that to do with anything? Why would Michael D need a campaign on his behalf I have to say that its very difficult to know what you're trying to say here.

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

I await a response to -

When did Michael D Higgins bring either religion in general or the church into the election?

Critic says President’s poems are a ‘crime against literature’



He says that Mr Higgins attempts comedy with 'Jesus appears in Dublin in 1990 at the Port & Docks Board site' but he dismisses it as a "lame duck".

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/arts/critic-says-presidents-poems-are-a-crime-against-literature-3015849.html

What "is/was" part of his "public image" with the Voters?

His profile amongst poets has hit an all time low.

Michael D Higgins is no poet

Billed as Ireland's poet-president, Higgins's verse is strikingly poor
Read Higgins's poem 'When Will My Time Come?'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/nov/01/michael-d-higgins-no-poet

Whats that to do with anything? Why would Michael D need a campaign on his behalf I have to say that its very difficult to know what you're trying to say here.

I am not doing anything and there is no message just an observation about what is appearing in the press.

Godge

This is a crazy thread full of nonsense claim and counter-claim.


(1) Switzerland - we have two embassies in Switzerland, one in Berne to the country of Switzerland, one to the UN in Geneva.
(2) US - we have two embassies in the US - one in Washington to the US and another in New York to the UN. We also have consulates in New York, Boston, Chicago and San Francisco (at least(
(3) Brussels - we have at least two embassies in Brussels - one to Belgium, one to the EU. We might also have one to NATO.
(4) Beyond that I am finding it difficult to figure out what the OP is on about
(5) Enda Kenny made a speech about the Catholic Church and the abuse of Irish children - it was the best speech by any politician in the last 20 years
(6) Gilmore rightly closed the Vatican embassy
(7) Mary McAleese went to Mass and other religious ceremonies, so does Michael D. Higgins
(8) Bertie Ahern went out to the Archbishop of Dublin for advice, Enda goes nowhere near him
(9) Politicians go to funerals and other religious occasions, always have, always will.


None of the above is in any way controversial (except for the Bertie bit).

CDfm

@Godge

(4) Beyond that I am finding it difficult to figure out what the OP is on about

I am not arguing a point here. I was driving down the N11 when the Government statement about potentially inviting the pope "if he wants to come" came over the radio. Clumsy wording.

A few articles had caught my eye in local papers where the backdrop framing of the stories had been religion. Photo captions etc. That's interesting.

Throwaway local stuff. Struck me as odd in a PR way too.

It has poped up a lot and it is interesting.

Why is it ? Is there a build up to local elections ?

I must say - President Higgins is quiet a networker and his campaign work was fairly inclusive. Not relevant here.

I an very surprised at the gung-ho catholic support material that's come out of Fine Gael.

raymon

Hi CdFm

I am wondering what the thread is about .

Is it about the fact that FG issued a clumsy statement about potentially inviting the pope "if he wants to come", or is it about hypocrisy of FG going to church but closing an embassy.

I have followed the links , but I'm still not clear about if there is a point .

Can you summarise what the thread is about

CDfm

Hi Raymon

The title "being catholic in fine gael" is as close to it as I can get. The news item on the government papal invite was just weird. If the thread is unclear it is because the position is unclear.

Fine Gael is classed as a " christian democrat party" and when I heard the item my reaction was that this would not really connect with its core voter. Part of this demographic would attend the Eucharistic Conference. I suppose the grass roots "shared constituency."

FG "head office" have just had a major spat with the Pope. The statement read like "we don't give a **** if the Pope visits or not" .

I once worked for a local newspaper and always pick them up and flick thru them -wherever I am. I noticed that there has been an - upping the ante - FG pro catholic local politician stuff.

In the absence of any debate in Fine Gael I picked what the local papers covered. Party representatives at local level are commenting.

Then after I posted after Noonan's "Enda is a better catholic than me" emerged - I am wondering where that came from.

(President Higgins in contrast during the election seemed to have that middle Ireland gig sewn up - I met him in Dublin and my friend did in Galway.

Labour & Eamonn Gilmore are identified as anti-catholic but that is the coallition partner )

So I wonder what it all means.

CDfm

raymon

Thanks CdFm . That explains it.

I personally believe that religion and politics should not mix at all .

The Vatican deserves an embassy no more than Lesotho , Andorra, Monaco, Liechtenstein etc