How would you solve the problems in the Education system?

micropig

So what other issues cause problems?
1)Lack of facilities
2)?????????


I ask this instead of offering issues which may be a problem,as it was indicated to me that I was focusing on the wrong issues

The Black Oil

Removing the non-upskillers might be a little cut and dry. If it were me, I'd say give everyone who has not done so 2-3 years to get something under their belt. Failure after that, yeah, start to look for other people.

Agreed that kids learn in different ways. This is about walking a fine line - a balancing act, imo. Kids might listen to Jollyphonics through IWBs, so I do see the value in the medium of technology, but peer interaction is definitely important - socially and for learning.

Re the IT side, I don't think we need IT professionals teaching relevant skills a) where will they come from? b) will they really have the time? and c) who'll paying them? At the older end of primary school, kids will be doing stuff in Powerpoint, etc. I don't think they need to be doing a whole lot else, typing, writing properly, working in groups of 3-4 to make a video project. At the younger end it might be Maths Circus, BBC/CBeebies online or similar. The schools I know of are primarily running Win XP, (pretty reasonably specc'd machines), which will be a problem once support for this stops in 2014 (let's not get bogged down in the OS stuff!). Upgrading - this is, again, time and money that likely isn't there. There's obsolete stuff around and donations from parents/work places, some useful...if it can be added to the pot, but again, very few people have the time to sit down and set up a PC, add to the network, etc from scratch. College is a different ball game, tbf.

Headteacher need to take more responsibility for the standard of teaching in the school

Would be interest to hear how you think this can come about, what's the mechanism to get a principal to do that?

Also, more NEPS psychologists, please, but again, that's a non-runner, I'd imagine.

micropig

Black Oil wrote: »

Removing the non-upskillers might be a little cut and dry. If it were me, I'd say give everyone who has not done so 2-3 years to get something under their belt. Failure after that, yeah, start to look for other people.

Agreed that kids learn in different ways. This is about walking a fine line - a balancing act, imo. Kids might listen to Jollyphonics through IWBs, so I do see the value in the medium of technology, but peer interaction is definitely important - socially and for learning.



Would be interest to hear how you think this can come about, what's the mechanism to get a principal to do that?

Also, more NEPS psychologists, please, but again, that's a non-runner, I'd imagine.

Agree - It's about a balancing act & varying activities so childen stay engaged.

There is a lot more you can do with interactive white boards than just listen to music, watch screen etc.

For example
Games where students pick a number-behind number is key work-student must give definition of keyword

The opposite way around teacher reads definition-2 students compete to find answer on the board, class split in two teams

Various interactive activities and children are usually motivated by a bit of healthy competition


These are only 2 examples but just show how IBW can be used, the children are learning & bit more interesting than books etc & they're are many more examples

Black Oil wrote: »

Re the IT side, I don't think we need IT professionals teaching relevant skills a) where will they come from? b) will they really have the time? and c) who'll paying them? At the older end of primary school, kids will be doing stuff in Powerpoint, etc. I don't think they need to be doing a whole lot else, typing, writing properly, making working in groups of 3-4 to make a video project. At the younger end it might be Maths Circus or similar. The schools I know of are primarily running Win XP, (pretty reasonably specc'd machines), which will be a problem once support for this stops in 2014 (let's not get bogged down in the OS stuff!). Upgrading - this is, again, time and money that likely isn't there. There's obsolete stuff around and donations from parents/work places, some useful...if it can be added to the pot, but again, very few people have the time to sit down and set up a PC, add to the network, etc from scratch. College is a different ball game, tbf..

a) I'd nearly guarantee that there is IT professionals who want to be teachers
b) Time could be factored in to their timetable for such
c) They'll be paid as full time teachers

Video projects - great example of another way technology can be used (for those that where indicating that I suggested technology is only laptops)

Students is primary school - I think at the lower end, they should be focusing on literacy and numeracy and getting the basics right. IIRC somewhere on this thread it was said that there was a 13 year who couldn't tell the time:eek::eek::eek:

Why are resources coming from parents etc (although well done parents) and not the education budget?

Not sure I agree college is a totally different ball game-Isn't this what we are preparing our children for in school?

Edit re up-skilling teachers -technology has been around for long enough, if they haven't already investigated how they can use it in their classroom & the benefits it has to support their teaching, they are not motivated teachers

micropig

@blackoil re principals - random checks on teachers classes, popping in an out, talking to students, looking at students books, it should be obvious which students are learning and which are not

Principals etc popping in and out to watch a class, should be common place so that students do not blink an eye when they come in & will happily chat to them about what they are learning

teachers shouldn't mind, because if your teaching is good it shouldn't matter who's watching

micropig

Anyone know what activities take up the bulk of headteachers & assistants day?

The Black Oil

I know some of the features of IWB software, it's handy. Going by some threads on boards there are IT people who have an interest in teaching, sure. There would be lots of kinks to iron out for it to work effectively, though. With IT, what I meant was, the emphasis at primary levels needs to be mostly about the getting the literacy and numeracy in motion, I don't feel as though there should be any shades of college expectations hanging over primary on the IT side, start pushing the IT aspect a little harder in secondary when college is around the corner. For SEN kids, I'm half tempted to say that we should take a leaf out of Temple Grandin's book and get retired IT people or scientists in to talk to kids 'it doesn't matter if what you're teaching them is old - you're lighting the spark.'

Technology is a funny thing. I wouldn't agree that those not in the know are unmotivated, a lot of them are a afraid of something new (even some of the younger teachers). They learn at different paces and you'll probably have to tell them 10 times how to fix their sound. Yes, they might have a personal notebook or smartphone, and they can write up notes, but it'll be their child or partner who has set up the kit to begin with.

I would assume that the budget and parents donating stuff is a fairly typical 'make do' Irish situation.

Principals are often overburdened with administration - they're in meetings, following up on this and that, completing grant applications, resending stuff to the Dept because they claimed they didn't get it, writing cheques, paying subs, dealing with queries about TY work experience, enrolment, lots and lots of day to day stuff to be done. It all goes crazy in late summer June because people want everything done last minute.

micropig

Black Oil wrote: »

I know some of the features of IWB software, it's handy. Going by some threads on boards there are IT people who have an interest in teaching, sure. There would be lots of kinks to iron out for it to work effectively, though. With IT, what I meant was, the emphasis at primary levels needs to be mostly about the getting the literacy and numeracy in motion, I don't feel as though there should be any shades of college expectations hanging over primary on the IT side, start pushing the IT aspect a little harder in secondary when college is around the corner. For SEN kids, I'm half tempted to say that we should take a leaf out of Temple Grandin's book and get retired IT people or scientists in to talk to kids 'it doesn't matter if what you're teaching them is old - you're lighting the spark.'

Technology is a funny thing. I wouldn't agree that those not in the know are unmotivated, a lot of them are a afraid of something new (even some of the younger teachers). They learn at different paces and you'll probably have to tell them 10 times how to fix their sound. Yes, they might have a personal notebook or smartphone, and they can write up notes, but it'll be their child or partner who has set up the kit to begin with.

I would assume that the budget and parents donating stuff is a fairly typical 'make do' Irish situation.

Principals are often overburdened with administration - they're in meetings, following up on this and that, completing grant applications, resending stuff to the Dept because they claimed they didn't get it, writing cheques, paying subs, dealing with queries about TY work experience, enrolment, lots and lots of day to day stuff to be done. It all goes crazy in late summer June because people want everything done last minute.

For SEN students I think learning support rooms & on site resource teacher/s, one of which also trained in counselling children who are removed from class -ie teacher rings if student is totally disruptive (all in class avenues of corrective discipline exhausted). Learning support removes child from room & brings to learning support centre & counsel

We'll have to agree to disagree re teachers & technology _Although I think this invalidates their argument that they have it tough keeping students on task, surely if it is as tough as some claim, they would explore every option to improve their teaching and increase the amount of teaching techniques used in their class (do these same teachers who can't plug in speakers have an iphone?)


re principals & administration: We are paying them too high of wages to be administrators, Surely we should be utilising the skills they have? Don't the secretaries do most of this any way, assistant principals???)

I think their main focus should be on ensuring the teachers are providing a good education for the children

#15

micropig wrote: »

What do you think are the issues we should be focusing on?

Just some of the ideas. It is unlikely that the public debate in Ireland will ever stretch to anything as relevant as this - most likely we'll continue to remain bogged down in misdirected discussion - but since you asked:

Sort out the patronage issue.

Improved pre-service training, with much more of a focus on observation of best practice.

Better support for teachers in the first few years following graduation.

Move to a more clinical approach in schools, with staff collaborating in their
planning. Schools to have access to a range of services and other professionals, e.g. educational psychologists.

Give more freedom/responsibility to teachers to develop the curriculum at local level (this can only be done after the implementation of improved pre- and in-service training).

Give more freedom/responsibility to principals to choose their own staff, including the ability to get rid of teachers.

Allow for collaboration between schools.

Allow second level students to engage in large scale collaborative projects.

Forget the latest garbage that is the 'Literacy and Numeracy Plan', which won't work.

Ram home the message to parents that the level of their involvement with their children is directly related to the educational outcomes of the children.

Give much more funding to schools that educate marginalised or disadvantaged children.

Things like well-stocked classrooms, nice playgrounds and warm, modern buildings are a given.

I have more, but that will do for now. It's a bit of a pointless discussion given the state of the public finances.

micropig

#15 wrote: »

Just some of the ideas. It is unlikely that the public debate in Ireland will ever stretch to anything as relevant as this - most likely we'll continue to remain bogged down in misdirected discussion - but since you asked:

Sort out the patronage issue.

Improved pre-service training, with much more of a focus on observation of best practice.

Better support for teachers in the first few years following graduation.

Move to a more clinical approach in schools, with staff collaborating in their
planning. Schools to have access to a range of services and other professionals, e.g. educational psychologists.

Give more freedom/responsibility to teachers to develop the curriculum at local level (this can only be done after the implementation of improved pre- and in-service training).

Give more freedom/responsibility to principals to choose their own staff, including the ability to get rid of teachers.

Allow for collaboration between schools.

Allow second level students to engage in large scale collaborative projects.

Forget the latest garbage that is the 'Literacy and Numeracy Plan', which won't work.

Ram home the message to parents that the level of their involvement with their children is directly related to the educational outcomes of the children.

Give much more funding to schools that educate marginalised or disadvantaged children.

Things like well-stocked classrooms, nice playgrounds and warm, modern buildings are a given.

I have more, but that will do for now. It's a bit of a pointless discussion given the state of the public finances.

+1 on most of the issue mentions and can I ask for a link to show me what the unions are doing about these issues

I don't agree the literacy & numeracy plan won't work. Can you explain why you think it won't?

Where do you suggest we could get the funding for schools, well stocked classrooms etc(aren't these facilities, I have been talking a lot about improving facilities)

micropig

Re funding -we had the money and didn't spend it, why not?

Someone suggested to me that we didn't spend it all because the projects done came out under budget -Surely we should have twice as many schools so?

The Black Oil

Ideally, LS rooms, but physically they may be no more than a glorified broom cupboard in some cases, though they make the best of them. The right secretary will do his/her bit and keep some of the distracting stuff from the principal's desk, but a lot needs their attention, too, and often their offices are at the front of the school with them being constantly interrupted.

Some of the technology question can come back to a person's original training and the era they grew up in. I'd some training colleges must have IWBs, so you'll get an interest early on with people in college now or a few years ago. What I would suggest, if a school is getting new system, is perhaps that 2-3 staff learn it and teach others bits and pieces as they go. It's of little use to get one person giving a 15 min demo. Certainly as soon the IWBs came into one school most people said to me 'I must do a course' (they often want the IWB software installed on their personal laptops) so I think the motivation piece is there, time often isn't. They'd probably have to learn it at home. What skills do you mean, leadership?

micropig

Black Oil wrote: »

Ideally, LS rooms, but physically they may be no more than a glorified broom cupboard in some cases, though they make the best of them. The right secretary will do his/her bit and keep some of the distracting stuff from the principal's desk, but a lot needs their attention, too, and often their offices are at the front of the school with them being constantly interrupted.

Some of the technology question can come back to a person's original training and the era they grew up in. I'd some training colleges must have IWBs, so you'll get an interest early on with people in college now or a few years ago. What I would suggest, if a school is getting new system, is perhaps that 2-3 staff learn it and teach others bits and pieces as they go. It's of little use to get one person giving a 15 min demo. Certainly as soon the IWBs came into one school most people said to me 'I must do a course' (they often want the IWB software installed on their personal laptops) so I think the motivation piece is there, time often isn't. They'd probably have to learn it at home. What skills do you mean, leadership?

re LS: This is what I want to get rid of - make shift/do resources. Why not spend the money building suitable facilities?

re: principals & assistant principals, I'm not suggesting they do this all day, but 15 mins a day in different classrooms would give them a great indication what is going on / what type of activites

re teachers & technology: what does this say to students? When you get to a certain age you can stop learning?

Why can't all staff do a training course? / not a 15min demo but proper training? -suggestion it could be run for 1 month of the summer


Principals skills we should be utilising: their knowledge of teaching / good & new teaching practices & techniques

seavill

micropig wrote: »

I'm only suggesting solutions to the problems offered (none so far are the students fault, but all have to do with lack of motivation by the teacher to find out the level the students in the class are working at and presenting them with activities they may actually enjoy learning through.

How dare you criticise me and my teaching without knowing anything about me. As I explained I was asked to take over from someone who was suddenly taken to hospital at 8pm the night before. I had 9 single classes to prepare for and stayed up until 3am getting ready as best I could for this. i was in school next morning at 8am and the school was not open until 8.15 I then had to photocopy, get keys sort the room, get materials ready etc. It is completely impractical for me to find out the situation with 270 students (9periods x 30 students approx) within that 35mins before needing to be in class and get the materials ready.

Lack of motivation - preparing an active lesson which is differentiated, with the use of technologies, getting 4 hours sleep to acomploish this. Lack of motivation????



YOU yoruself keep going on about solutions to the problem and people not offering them. You keep referring back to how unions did not do their job back when we had money etc. How is this offering a solution to the problems you pose??????



"Why are teachers/unions not shouting about the lack of support they are been given to effectively manage behaviour problems?"

As your post pointed out previously the members of the union DID BRING UP STRIKING DUE TO RESOURCE CUTS, however were unable to strike due to CPA. and don't respond with who voted for CPA.



"And yet nobody has offered other solutions so far..............................."



If you go back to my original post I did offer solutions to the questions posed by you individually the broad sweeping statements are getting tiresome.

I will just recap on my post referring to your questions



1) The teachers and parents of the troublesome students must be made sit together to solve the problem not one acting individually



2) Longer school year - more class contact time



3) Continue planning and correcting, using all modern methods, but reduce having to do extra planning just to satisfy an inspector

4) Cut in pay across the board and this money must be specifically used for SNA's and resource hours etc. not for any other purpose within the government

5) Active learning activities however it must be realised that these cannot be done 100% of the time.

I would like you Micropig to refrain from slagging off my teaching abilities again as I believe this is extremely disrespectful and unprofessional

A lot of your suggestions come down to money I have suggested a way to solve this to a certain extent. Do not suggest I did not. Do not refer back to what unions should have done back in the good days

Feeona

#15 wrote: »

Just some of the ideas. It is unlikely that the public debate in Ireland will ever stretch to anything as relevant as this - most likely we'll continue to remain bogged down in misdirected discussion - but since you asked:

Sort out the patronage issue.

Improved pre-service training, with much more of a focus on observation of best practice.

Better support for teachers in the first few years following graduation. NQT courses are now available, as are mentors for NQT's in schools

Move to a more clinical approach in schools, with staff collaborating in their
planning. Schools to have access to a range of services and other professionals, e.g. educational psychologists. Staff do collaborate and share ideas, lessons etc. there is usually an overall school plan which informs teachers of what they should be teaching, and for other information such as the type of language to use in Mathematics etc. Schools also have access to SENO's, who come in to assess children who appear to have special needs. Unfortunately, I believe that a school only has access to SENO's for three children and no more.

Give more freedom/responsibility to teachers to develop the curriculum at local level (this can only be done after the implementation of improved pre- and in-service training).

Give more freedom/responsibility to principals to choose their own staff, including the ability to get rid of teachers.

Allow for collaboration between schools. There's nothing really to stop collaboration between schools. It often goes on unofficially. Usually down to the principal

Allow second level students to engage in large scale collaborative projects.

Forget the latest garbage that is the 'Literacy and Numeracy Plan', which won't work. Education is a dumping ground for the latest fad in research, or surveys. The government want to keep the public happy, and so want to be seen to be doing something about Literacy and Numeracy levels. Personally, I believe that the overcrowded curriculum introduced in 1999 (eleven subjects plus Religion) at primary level led to lower literacy and numeracy levels.

Ram home the message to parents that the level of their involvement with their children is directly related to the educational outcomes of the children. Some parents just don't care unfortunately. It's not unusual for a child (of parents who don't care) to come in without lunch several days in a row, or send their child in without a coat on a freezing cold day . I quickly learned how lucky I was growing up in a family with parents who cared for me.

Give much more funding to schools that educate marginalised or disadvantaged children.

Things like well-stocked classrooms, nice playgrounds and warm, modern buildings are a given.

I have more, but that will do for now. It's a bit of a pointless discussion given the state of the public finances.

Just a few points I inserted in bold in your quote. I agree that public finances would dictate most of the points you raised.

The patronage is a huge can of worms and would probably take years to implement, and even more years again to resolve any issues arising from it.

The Black Oil

I'd say once the LS teacher has the right resources (in addition to photocopied stuff, charts, exercises, word play, tests, how to get words right, etc, but they have some sort of system) the physical space matters less. Some LS teachers take their pupils to museums/out of the school, or they might give the weaker children the best slot of the day only for the child to be regularly dropped in late and miss their LS spot. I don't know how to protect against that other than asking the parent to get the child to school on time like almost everyone else.

If a principal has a good working relationship with his/her staff I don't see an issue with them spending time in the classroom, but I think your 15 minute suggestion would only really be practical on some sort of rota. Too often they'll get pulled away by a phone call or someone at the office. The assistant principals I've met do stuff like the rola and maybe some LS work. I wouldn't be against people doing a course, again this would require a bit of pre-planning and knowing when the IT stuff is ready so as to be able to learn and then jump on board once term starts. I don't think most kids would read much into some teachers being a bit slow with gadgets.

micropig

seavill wrote: »

How dare you criticise me and my teaching without knowing anything about me. As I explained I was asked to take over from someone who was suddenly taken to hospital at 8pm the night before. I had 9 single classes to prepare for and stayed up until 3am getting ready as best I could for this. i was in school next morning at 8am and the school was not open until 8.15 I then had to photocopy, get keys sort the room, get materials ready etc. It is completely impractical for me to find out the situation with 270 students (9periods x 30 students approx) within that 35mins before needing to be in class and get the materials ready.

Not critising your teaching -Just this issue re a student not able to engage in the work

If you only found out at the last minute, why did the other teaching not email you the lesson plans they had prepared / not saved on the school system?

Not suggesting you didn't work hard at preparing the lessons, but am suggesting that maybe the lessons weren't differentiated enough for all students to engage with the lesson

seavill wrote: »

Lack of motivation - preparing an active lesson which is differentiated, with the use of technologies, getting 4 hours sleep to acomploish this. Lack of motivation????

I think this is very motivated. I am only sorry for you that the lesson plans & IEP's where not saved by the other teacher on the school system & you didn't get a good nights sleep.

My comment re lack of motivation was about teachers who do not upskill to include technology in their lessons

seavill wrote: »

YOU yoruself keep going on about solutions to the problem and people not offering them. You keep referring back to how unions did not do their job back when we had money etc. How is this offering a solution to the problems you pose??????

"Why are teachers/unions not shouting about the lack of support they are been given to effectively manage behaviour problems?"

As your post pointed out previously the members of the union DID BRING UP STRIKING DUE TO RESOURCE CUTS, however were unable to strike due to CPA. and don't respond with who voted for CPA.

Who agreed to the CPA? the most powerful unions in the country (teachers unions). They could have put a clause in, we agree by x, y, z are vital to effectively running a school and if these are touched they're will be a strike

(I'm betting teachers would have a lot of public support striking over the loss of SNA's as the lack of the affects every child in the room)

My solution -I already provided this re funding
reduce the amount of the education budget spent on teachers salaries and spend it on improving facilities

Wouldn't teachers be happier with better facilities

seavill wrote: »

If you go back to my original post I did offer solutions to the questions posed by you individually the broad sweeping statements are getting tiresome.

I will just recap on my post referring to your questions

1) The teachers and parents of the troublesome students must be made sit together to solve the problem not one acting individually


2) Longer school year - more class contact time

3) Continue planning and correcting, using all modern methods, but reduce having to do extra planning just to satisfy an inspector

4) Cut in pay across the board and this money must be specifically used for SNA's and resource hours etc. not for any other purpose within the government

5) Active learning activities however it must be realised that these cannot be done 100% of the time.

I would like you Micropig to refrain from slagging off my teaching abilities again as I believe this is extremely disrespectful and unprofessional

A lot of your suggestions come down to money I have suggested a way to solve this to a certain extent. Do not suggest I did not. Do not refer back to what unions should have done back in the good days

1) I think we need to look at why children are misbehaving in class
2) Agree - but will make no difference if teacher ineffective
3) Agree, why extra planning to satisfy inspectors -all lessons should be planned to this standard the whole time
4) Absolutely agree
5) no need to do 100% of time -we must cater for all types of learners

& not slagging off your teaching ability - just suggesting solutions to the problem you presented and suggesting that this shouldn't happen

Again my suggestion for money -Reduce the amount of money spent on teachers salaries & increase the amount spent on facilities

micropig

micropig wrote: »

Again my suggestion for money -Reduce the amount of money spent on teachers salaries & increase the amount spent on facilities

You seem to be posting in the wrong forum.

Here you go: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=22


You're welcome in advance.

micropig

Black Oil wrote: »

I'd say once the LS teacher has the right resources (in addition to photocopied stuff, charts, exercises, word play, tests, how to get words right, etc, but they have some sort of system) the physical space matters less. Some LS teachers take their pupils to museums/out of the school, or they might give the weaker children the best slot of the day only for the child to be regularly dropped in late and miss their LS spot. I don't know how to protect against that other than asking the parent to get the child to school on time like almost everyone else.

If a principal has a good working relationship with his/her staff I don't see an issue with them spending time in the classroom, but I think your 15 minute suggestion would only really be practical on some sort of rota. Too often they'll get pulled away by a phone call or someone at the office. The assistant principals I've met do stuff like the rola and maybe some LS work. I wouldn't be against people doing a course, again this would require a bit of pre-planning and knowing when the IT stuff is ready so as to be able to learn and then jump on board once term starts. I don't think most kids would read much into some teachers being a bit slow with gadgets.

If the principal has only 5 mins in the class, can't they pop back later in the class/the next day to see if the teacher is varying their activities

Children are big in to technology - most of them don't remember a time before computers. I think it gives the students the impression that the school facilities are outdated and teachers who don't use it out of touch, perhaps?

micropig

Deleted User wrote: »

You seem to be posting in the wrong forum.

Here you go: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=22


You're welcome in advance.

Why wrong forum?
Unless you jest then this is the form for you http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=22
Thanks in advance

*looks around to see how far away angry mob of teachers are

Feeona

Deleted User wrote: »

You seem to be posting in the wrong forum.

Here you go: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=22


You're welcome in advance.

:pac::)

The Black Oil

Dunno. I think kids get pretty pumped up at the thought of breaking away from the school books to use a PC, even if it's older than what they have at home. I'm sure some even like helping teachers sort out some of the minor technical issues.

micropig

Black Oil wrote: »

Dunno. I think kids get pretty pumped up at the thought of breaking away from the school books to use a PC, even if it's older than what they have at home. I'm sure some even like helping teachers sort out some of the minor technical issues.

+1, but the facilities need to be there in order for them to be able to use them

micropig

micropig wrote: »

Why wrong forum?
Unless you jest then this is the form for you http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=22
Thanks in advance

*looks around to see how far away angry mob of teachers are

From my days in primary school, which was as they say not today or yesterday, I should point out that if someone points at you, laughs, and says "you smell", then saying "you smell too" means you've lost. :rolleyes:

But 'n'all'n'anyways, your post deserved to be in the humour forum - only it was less funny than a lot of what gets posted there.

You were having a laugh, weren't you? :eek:

Feeona

Black Oil wrote: »

Dunno. I think kids get pretty pumped up at the thought of breaking away from the school books to use a PC, even if it's older than what they have at home. I'm sure some even like helping teachers sort out some of the minor technical issues.

My boyfriend looks after the ICT for his school. He's just recently started an after school computer club, and will be teaching the children some basic programming. He hopes that they will be able to work on the school website eventually.

micropig

Feeona wrote: »

My boyfriend looks after the ICT for his school. He's just recently started an after school computer club, and will be teaching the children some basic programming. He hopes that they will be able to work on the school website eventually.

He sounds like a good teacher re taking an interest in after school clubs & has a vision of getting the students to run the website

#15

micropig wrote: »

can I ask for a link to show me what the unions are doing about these issues

You can ask but I won't give you one because

1) I don't have one and I don't care what the union does. My points stand on their own merit, regardless of what any unions says or does.

2) The union operates on the basis of defending its members. My points relate to the broader system, so it's not likely that they will have campaigned on, or even agreed with, all the issues I raised.

3) Given your stated position that money should be diverted from salaries towards resources, why would unions enter such a debate? It's pretty dishonest to slam them for not campaigning on certain issues, and then when they do call for additional resources, they are told that it will come from salaries. That's incentivising unions to keep their heads down and out of the way.

That said, unions probably have campaigned on such issues. I don't know for sure. There are other posters here who know a lot more than I do about union issues.

I don't agree the literacy & numeracy plan won't work. Can you explain why you think it won't?

Because it's a lot of waffle, and it increases the emphasis on standardised testing. It's a rushed response to alarmist media reporting about the PISA results.
It doesn't address the curriculum at all, save for telling teachers to cut time from other (unspecified) subjects.

It doesn't really address any wider socio-economic issues in any meaningful way either.

It is extremely vague in the way it references the evidence for the new policy direction. A basic requirement for policy change is to have evidence or an expectation that the policy will work. They don't offer sources for the research that they ''cite''.
They could be citing some obscure study as a basis for the N and L plan and we would have no way of knowing.

Where do you suggest we could get the funding for schools, well stocked classrooms etc(aren't these facilities, I have been talking a lot about improving facilities)

Yes, they are facilities. My point is that it's not even a topic of debate. Everyone agrees on the need for better facilities.

I also said that funding won't be available for any of this; It's a bit of a pointless discussion given the state of the public finances.

micropig

Deleted User wrote: »

From my days in primary school, which was as they say not today or yesterday, I should point out that if someone points at you, laughs, and says "you smell", then saying "you smell too" means you've lost. :rolleyes:

But 'n'all'n'anyways, your post deserved to be in the humour forum - only it was less funny than a lot of what gets posted there.

You were having a laugh, weren't you? :eek:

Why not? Surely teachers would be happier with happier students & better buildings & facilities to work with.
Students would be happier - teachers have more/better resources to when planning their lessons - lesson can be very interesting & engaging in a proper building

happier students=more engaged students=less behaviour issue=less stress for teacher

Feeona

micropig wrote: »

He sounds like a good teacher re taking an interest in after school clubs & has a vision of getting the students to run the website

He is a great teacher, but extra curricular activities are something that a lot of teachers do whether it's GAA, running, music lessons, singing etc. Extra curricular activities are a nice way to get to know the children outside of school as there's less pressure involved and the children are keen to learn because they're really interested in the topic at hand (if they weren't, they wouldn't be there!)

micropig

#15 wrote: »

You can ask but I won't give you one because

1) I don't have one and I don't care what the union does. My points stand on their own merit, regardless of what any unions says or does.

2) The union operates on the basis of defending its members. My points relate to the broader system, so it's not likely that they will have campaigned on, or even agreed with, all the issues I raised.

3) Given your stated position that money should be diverted from salaries towards resources, why would unions enter such a debate? It's pretty dishonest to slam them for not campaigning on certain issues, and then when they do call for additional resources, they are told that it will come from salaries. That's incentivising unions to keep their heads down and out of the way.

That said, unions probably have campaigned on such issues. I don't know for sure. There are other posters here who know a lot more than I do about union issues.



Because it's a lot of waffle, and it increases the emphasis on standardised testing. It's a rushed response to alarmist media reporting about the PISA results.
It doesn't address the curriculum at all, save for telling teachers to cut time from other (unspecified) subjects.

It doesn't really address any wider socio-economic issues in any meaningful way either.

It is extremely vague in the way it references the evidence for the new policy direction. A basic requirement for policy change is to have evidence or an expectation that the policy will work. They don't offer sources for the research that they ''cite''.
They could be citing some obscure study as a basis for the N and L plan and we would have no way of knowing.



Yes, they are facilities. My point is that it's not even a topic of debate. Everyone agrees on the need for better facilities.

I also said that funding won't be available for any of this; It's a bit of a pointless discussion given the state of the public finances.

Unions represent the views of their members. If the main issue their members are complaining about is lack of facilities - they why aren't the unions representing their views/

They campaigned too late. More was there in 2009 to invest in proper facilities - why not campaign then. this issue did not suddenly arise over night

I don't agree with your views on the numeracy & literacy policy. I think it improves the students vocab. Science, for example can be like a different language (using scientific terms etc to describe things)

Why rely on their research? Why not actively research it yourself?

I already suggested where the money could be found.

Why do you think students mis-behave in class?

The Black Oil

Feeona wrote: »

My boyfriend looks after the ICT for his school. He's just recently started an after school computer club, and will be teaching the children some basic programming. He hopes that they will be able to work on the school website eventually.

Good on him and for the programming. In the school I'm familiar with it's not possible to do that because of the other after school activities you pointed out - homework club, art, chess, GAA, running, etc.

micropig

Feeona wrote: »

He is a great teacher, but extra curricular activities are something that a lot of teachers do whether it's GAA, running, music lessons, singing etc. Extra curricular activities are a nice way to get to know the children outside of school as there's less pressure involved and the children are keen to learn because they're really interested in the topic at hand (if they weren't, they wouldn't be there!)

Totally agree -its a great way of getting to know the students

But every teacher should contribute some thing to extra curricular activities, not just some.

You kind of proove my point in your next sentence
Interested children = engaged children =keen to learn

seavill

micropig wrote: »

Not critising your teaching -Just this issue re a student not able to engage in the work

If you only found out at the last minute, why did the other teaching not email you the lesson plans they had prepared / not saved on the school system?

Not suggesting you didn't work hard at preparing the lessons, but am suggesting that maybe the lessons weren't differentiated enough for all students to engage with the lesson



I think this is very motivated. I am only sorry for you that the lesson plans & IEP's where not saved by the other teacher on the school system & you didn't get a good nights sleep.


Again my suggestion for money -Reduce the amount of money spent on teachers salaries & increase the amount spent on facilities

I am still enraged by your attitude, how about you try this for once I AM SORRY I GOT THAT ONE WRONG.

I am sick of repeating myself in posts as I have explained the teacher was taken into hospital at short notice I am sure their life threatening condition was more on their mind than e-mailing me their plans. They had their laptop at home obviously to do some work at home and as a result was not with me. Think of the obvious answer sometimes its the actual answer.

Instead of slagging off my lessons, which you did not see how can you even dare tell me whether they were differentiated or not. If you listened to anything I said I was preparing the best I could in a short period of time to have a lesson that was interesting and differentiated at different times. I have given you 2 sentences on my 40 minute lesson what makes you the expert on that lesson.

You are also slagging off my coleague and friend who was taken very ill urgently for not leaving everything on a plate for me. Just take a point that you were wrong say sorry and stop picking at thigns and diggin a bigger hole for yourself.

I suggested your suggestion re money back on the first page of this topic.

micropig

micropig wrote: »

Why not? Surely teachers would be happier with happier students & better buildings & facilities to work with.
Students would be happier - teachers have more/better resources to when planning their lessons - lesson can be very interesting & engaging in a proper building

happier students=more engaged students=less behaviour issue=less stress for teacher

Oh dear. This is going less well than I expected.

But fairy nuff, if the student doesn't get it first time around, methinks a good teacher would at least have a go at approaching the topic from a different angle, in the hope of achieving the desired learning outcomes. So here we go.

I've no idea what the total teacher pay bill is, which means I have no idea what percentage cut it would require to save €500 million a year from it. But since this is only an exercise, let's just bear with all of that for the sake of having a go at the question - like yon Mathematics, how you approach the problem is as important as the answer you work out at the end.

So, let's say we're the guv'ment, and we cut the pay of the teachers by €500 million a year (or per annum as the Christian Brothers used to say in my day, while they were bating the ****e out of us, not that I'm bitter or anything).

€500 million saved from the teacher pay bill. What would it be spent on?

Now, in fairness, this is a question for micropig, so if any over-zealous student jumps in with an answer they'll be sent outside the door ---- no, wait, we're not allowed do that, *bugger*

---

OK, they'll make me cross. And sad.

Over to you, dood. If we, the guv'ment, lopped €500 million off teacher pay, what would the money be spent on?

'snot a bad question, IMHO.

micropig

@ blackoil: does every teacher in the school participate in running an after school activity?
If so, this is fantastic, if not - shame on the ones that don't

savvyav

I'm noticing loads of stuff about how 'learning should be fun' and how all teachers should be multi-media wizards who put on fantastic sound and light shows with added special effects to engage their students' attention and I completely disagree. While it is fine to occasionally use technology as an aid in the classroom, it cannot and will not replace good old-fashioned teaching. Children are far too over-stimulated these days, they need to realise that not everything comes with flashing lights.
I teach languages and my main problem is that most children do not have a decent vocabulary in English, which hampers them from learning foreign languages, so I would like to see more emphasis on getting kids to read books in primary school. There also needs to be more importance placed on grammer; every year I have to revise what nouns/verbs/articles/etc are. I would also like to see languages being taught from primary school onwards rather than just in secondary schools.
I do occasionally use technology,role-plays, songs, etc in my classes, but as an occasional treat, rather than on a regular basis. The best method for getting students (secondary school anyway) to really learn something is to give lots of notes, do lots of examples together on the board (a regular whiteboard!) and give regular homework and mini-tests- and no, I don't teach in the perfect school, far from it. It sounds boring but if you have a genuine interest and passion for your subject it will come across in your teaching.
In a perfect world I would also like to have interested parents who actually care about whether their kids go to school or not, a decent library in every school, more foreign language assistants (they are the best way to make languages more 'alive' for students) and more resources available through Irish- there is a shocking lack of them, for every subject. I also feel a lot of the curricula need to be over-hauled as they are quite outdated e.g writing a formal French letter? In my 15 years of speaking French and living in Francophone countries, I have written one formal letter...for my Leaving Cert exam.

micropig

seavill wrote: »

I am still enraged by your attitude, how about you try this for once I AM SORRY I GOT THAT ONE WRONG.

I am sick of repeating myself in posts as I have explained the teacher was taken into hospital at short notice I am sure their life threatening condition was more on their mind than e-mailing me their plans. They had their laptop at home obviously to do some work at home and as a result was not with me. Think of the obvious answer sometimes its the actual answer.

Instead of slagging off my lessons, which you did not see how can you even dare tell me whether they were differentiated or not. If you listened to anything I said I was preparing the best I could in a short period of time to have a lesson that was interesting and differentiated at different times. I have given you 2 sentences on my 40 minute lesson what makes you the expert on that lesson.

You are also slagging off my coleague and friend who was taken very ill urgently for not leaving everything on a plate for me. Just take a point that you were wrong say sorry and stop picking at thigns and diggin a bigger hole for yourself.

I suggested your suggestion re money back on the first page of this topic.

You told me not every child in the class was able to engage. If all range of abilities could not engage-the lesson was not differentiated enough.

I'm am not an expert on your lesson again you presented the problem of the child not able to read the questions and I am referring to this incident

The Black Oil

micropig wrote: »

@ blackoil: does every teacher in the school participate in running an after school activity?
If so, this is fantastic, if not - shame on the ones that don't

Don't know, possibly around half. It really depends on on what the demand is and things like drama or Judo are done by people from outside the school.

seavill

micropig wrote: »

You told me not every child in the class was able to engage. If all range of abilities could not engage-the lesson was not differentiated enough.

I'm am not an expert on your lesson again you presented the problem of the child not able to read the questions and I am referring to this incident

And I will explain for the 3rd time I was given this class and 8 others at 8pm at night and unable to get all the information in time as explained before. I prepared an exciting lesson to try to engage everyone as much I could as I did not know any of the students.
Obviously a class you teach week in week out is a different scenario.

Your posts are idiotic at times, how hard is it to say apologies and stop insulting people.

I will also refer back probably 8 or 9 pages where YOU refused to answer my question about your background by responding with a question about my background which I answered fully and honestly.

Could you now do me the same professional courtesy and respond in a proper manner to my question. Thanks

micropig

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh dear. This is going less well than I expected.

See.. What I'm suggesting has benefits for the teacher too!

Deleted User wrote: »

But fairy nuff, if the student doesn't get it first time around, methinks a good teacher would at least have a go at approaching the topic from a different angle, in the hope of achieving the desired learning outcomes. So here we go.

A teacher should use a few different methods to teach the same topic. Children learning differently so it is important that the teacher takes a few different approaches to covering the topic

Deleted User wrote: »

I've no idea what the total teacher pay bill is, which means I have no idea what percentage cut it would require to save €500 million a year from it. But since this is only an exercise, let's just bear with all of that for the sake of having a go at the question - like yon Mathematics, how you approach the problem is as important as the answer you work out at the end.

So, let's say we're the guv'ment, and we cut the pay of the teachers by €500 million a year (or per annum as the Christian Brothers used to say in my day, while they were bating the ****e out of us, not that I'm bitter or anything).

€500 million saved from the teacher pay bill. What would it be spent on?

Now, in fairness, this is a question for micropig, so if any over-zealous student jumps in with an answer they'll be sent outside the door ---- no, wait, we're not allowed do that, *bugger*

---

OK, they'll make me cross. And sad.

Over to you, dood. If we, the guv'ment, lopped €500 million off teacher pay, what would the money be spent on?

'snot a bad question, IMHO.

1st)get rid of all prefabs. Schools with a high percentage of prefabs get bulldozed first and a state of the art, suitable for purpose building replaces it. Then work on the other schools.
2nd) Improve basic equipment in other schools to ensure all schools are of a high standard.

Once basic facilities have been improved, start improving other facilities. Bring computers & other technology in to the classroom & get the students using them

4th) keep improving

basic equipment includes sna's etc

micropig

savvyav wrote: »

I'm noticing loads of stuff about how 'learning should be fun' and how all teachers should be multi-media wizards who put on fantastic sound and light shows with added special effects to engage their students' attention and I completely disagree. While it is fine to occasionally use technology as an aid in the classroom, it cannot and will not replace good old-fashioned teaching. Children are far too over-stimulated these days, they need to realise that not everything comes with flashing lights.
I teach languages and my main problem is that most children do not have a decent vocabulary in English, which hampers them from learning foreign languages, so I would like to see more emphasis on getting kids to read books in primary school. There also needs to be more importance placed on grammer; every year I have to revise what nouns/verbs/articles/etc are. I would also like to see languages being taught from primary school onwards rather than just in secondary schools.
I do occasionally use technology,role-plays, songs, etc in my classes, but as an occasional treat, rather than on a regular basis. The best method for getting students (secondary school anyway) to really learn something is to give lots of notes, do lots of examples together on the board (a regular whiteboard!) and give regular homework and mini-tests- and no, I don't teach in the perfect school, far from it. It sounds boring but if you have a genuine interest and passion for your subject it will come across in your teaching.
In a perfect world I would also like to have interested parents who actually care about whether their kids go to school or not, a decent library in every school, more foreign language assistants (they are the best way to make languages more 'alive' for students) and more resources available through Irish- there is a shocking lack of them, for every subject. I also feel a lot of the curricula need to be over-hauled as they are quite outdated e.g writing a formal French letter? In my 15 years of speaking French and living in Francophone countries, I have written one formal letter...for my Leaving Cert exam.

technology is especially useful for languages
why are students only allowed it as a treat, go on let them enjoy learning!!

re languages surely it is encouraged that they speak it and watch programmes on it, also lets of software to test punciation, verbs etc

micropig

micropig wrote: »

1st)get rid of all prefabs. Schools with a high percentage of prefabs get bulldozed first and a state of the art, suitable for purpose building replaces it. Then work on the other schools.
2nd) Improve basic equipment in other schools to ensure all schools are of a high standard.

Once basic facilities have been improved, start improving other facilities. Bring computers & other technology in to the classroom & get the students using them

4th) keep improving

basic equipment includes sna's etc

Sorry, mate, but that's a fail.

I don't want to write off your performance entirely, but I'm afraid it is definitely an F.

It's a pity. Such a potentially bright student too.

micropig

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry, mate, but that's a fail.

I don't want to write off your performance entirely, but I'm afraid it is definitely an F.

It's a pity. Such a potentially bright student too.

Why? What seems to be the issue.
can you give me more constructive feedback on why I fail to help me improve?

#15

micropig wrote: »

Unions represent the views of their members. If the main issue their members are complaining about is lack of facilities - they why aren't the unions representing their views/

They campaigned too late. More was there in 2009 to invest in proper facilities - why not campaign then. this issue did not suddenly arise over night

How do you know they didn't campaign?

Have you looked on their websites and checked past campaigns?

I haven't, and I'm not going to assume, because I don't know either way.

I don't agree with your views on the numeracy & literacy policy. I think it improves the students vocab. Science, for example can be like a different language (using scientific terms etc to describe things)

Fine, we'll see who is right in 15 years when the current crop of Junior Infants have passed through the system under the new plan.

Why rely on their research? Why not actively research it yourself?

I have actively researched it. That's exactly why I have no confidence in the policymakers in the DES.

I already suggested where the money could be found.

Yes, teachers' pockets.
And you want unions to campaign for this.

Why do you think students mis-behave in class?

There are loads of reasons, each child is different.

seavill

micropig wrote: »

Why? What seems to be the issue.
can you give me more constructive feedback on why I fail to help me improve?

Could you please answer my post to help me improve my understanding of you.

savvyav

Technology is useful for languages? In very small doses! Put most children in front of a computer and try to get them to do any language-based activity and most of the them will immediately try to open Google Translate or Babelfish on the sly...policing that alone takes up most of the class. It's also very hard to find suitable resources for the Irish curriculum online- most are geared towards the UK.
Anyway I managed to take up two foreign languages in college without oodles of technology and that was only 10 years ago. All we had was language lab once a week, which was listening comprehensions and we watched films as part of our cultural studies class. Seeing as I only turned 17 a month before I started college there wasn't a huge difference in age between me in 1st year of college and the average 5th or 6th year students...

micropig

seavill wrote: »

And I will explain for the 3rd time I was given this class and 8 others at 8pm at night and unable to get all the information in time as explained before. I prepared an exciting lesson to try to engage everyone as much I could as I did not know any of the students.
Obviously a class you teach week in week out is a different scenario.

Your posts are idiotic at times, how hard is it to say apologies and stop insulting people.

I will also refer back probably 8 or 9 pages where YOU refused to answer my question about your background by responding with a question about my background which I answered fully and honestly.

Could you now do me the same professional courtesy and respond in a proper manner to my question. Thanks

OK I am sorry you did not differentiate you lesson to include all abilities of learners
I am sorry I think the information and lesson plans should be made available to you??????????????????????????????????????

micropig

micropig wrote: »

Why? What seems to be the issue.
can you give me more constructive feedback on why I fail to help me improve?

I sure can, based on the sound advice given to me in my youth (a long time ago, alas) by some excellent teachers.

You didn't address the question asked. You addressed a different question, but not the one that was asked of you. This means that although you probably scored some marks for setting out some argument and opinion, you were starting from a terribly low base because you weren't actually addressing your answer to the problem contained in the question.

Or, to summarise:

To answer the question well, you must first read the question well.

Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he will eat for a lifetime. A popular saying in my school days (ahhh, Jaysus be with the youth of us). I could take a shortcut and simply tell you what the correct answer is - but that would not represent an optimum learning outcome. I'm going for the optimum, and so should you.

micropig

savvyav wrote: »

Technology is useful for languages? In very small doses! Put most children in front of a computer and try to get them to do any language-based activity and most of the them will immediately try to open Google Translate or Babelfish on the sly...policing that alone takes up most of the class. It's also very hard to find suitable resources for the Irish curriculum online- most are geared towards the UK.
Anyway I managed to take up two foreign languages in college without oodles of technology and that was only 10 years ago. All we had was language lab once a week, which was listening comprehensions and we watched films as part of our cultural studies class. Seeing as I only turned 17 a month before I started college there wasn't a huge difference in age between me in 1st year of college and the average 5th or 6th year students...

Not just sitting in front of a computer. games on the IBW, videoing themselves etc.

micropig

Deleted User wrote: »

I sure can, based on the sound advice given to me in my youth (a long time ago, alas) by some excellent teachers.

You didn't address the question asked. You addressed a different question, but not the one that was asked of you. This means that although you probably scored some marks for setting out some argument and opinion, you were starting from a terribly low base because you weren't actually addressing your answer to the problem contained in the question.

Or, to summarise:

To answer the question well, you must first read the question well.

Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he will eat for a lifetime. A popular saying in my school days (ahhh, Jaysus be with the youth of us). I could take a shortcut and simply tell you what the correct answer is - but that would not represent an optimum learning outcome. I'm going for the optimum, and so should you.

my point earlier in the thread - teach the children to be independent researchers, train then where to find & validate relevant information is better than just giving them the information

seavill

micropig wrote: »

OK I am sorry you did not differentiate you lesson to include all abilities of learners
I am sorry I think the information and lesson plans should be made available to you??????????????????????????????????????

Ok we will try it a different way as you suggest to take into account you are obviously not the type of learner I am currently aiming my questions at.

Knowing what you know now about the situation, how the information was not available to me for 9am in the morning as would have been ideal, however did not work in practice, and putting yourself in my shoes at that time how would you have done it differently.

And could you respond instead of ignoring my questions in relation to background and I would ask you not to repost the same answer that has been put out numerous times before "would my background make my points any less valid" or something along this line.