How would you solve the problems in the Education system?

seavill

micropig wrote: »

Do you critise the suggestions and answers of your students in the same way?

From a teacher who wondered what to do if the child couldn't read:rolleyes:

My reply to your smiles include the post the smiles where about

Again we are going back to being insulting to each other.
Excellent

micropig

seavill wrote: »

Again we are going back to being insulting to each other.
Excellent

Ok so I gather from this thread that there are not behaviour issues, teachers are planning fantastic lessons and children are interested and engaged in lessons.
Edit: The facilities are grand

(Never mind the facts & figures which show otherwise-Keep shouting what we have is great)

What are teachers complaining about then?

Again I will offer my theory - The high wages have attracted greedy people to the profession, with no interest in improving the standard of education & facilities. A lot of teachers aren't interesting in hearing how they can improve their own situation and there's an awful air of helplessness

Lower the wages. Attract educated people to the profession with an interest in children and spend the money saved on SNA's & facilities

seavill

micropig wrote: »

Ok so I gather from this thread that there are not behaviour issues, teachers are planning fantastic lessons and children are interested and engaged in lessons.

(Never mind the facts & figures which show otherwise-Keep shouting what we have is great)

What are teachers complaining about then?

Again I will offer my theory - The high wages have attracted greedy people to the profession, with no interest in improving the standard of education & facilities

Lower the wages. Attract educated people to the profession with an interest in children and spend the money saved on SNA's & facilities

Well going on what you say about your teaching you have no issues plan perfect lessons and use all activities as you said you practice what you preach. So if this is true for you why can it not be true for others.

I don't remember complaining about anything.

I have already said cut pay and spend it on SNA s etc.

Attracting people and less pay generally don't go together. I'm sure you can see my point. ( and before you jump down my throat I'm not saying increase pay or anything like that)

micropig

seavill wrote: »

Well going on what you say about your teaching you have no issues plan perfect lessons and use all activities as you said you practice what you preach. So if this is true for you why can it not be true for others.

I don't remember complaining about anything.

I have already said cut pay and spend it on SNA s etc.

Attracting people and less pay generally don't go together. I'm sure you can see my point. ( and before you jump down my throat I'm not saying increase pay or anything like that)

I never said I had no issue, but I reduce behaviour problems as much as I can by planning interesting lessons, where everyone in the class can participate regardless of ability. If my students tell me I'm boring, I take it as feedback and find out what type of activities they like doing. I take this feedback and use it to inform my future lessons. I cringe when I hear teachers giving out that students won't sit at their desks for a long time & then continue to plan lessons where they are required to do so

Maybe others do not plan properly or care what their students enjoy doing. Maybe they fail them if the student says they are boring?

I am suggesting Irish teachers are give more power to deal with beahviour issues & are supported more

Yes but less pay offered will attract people who actually want to and are interested in teaching -see my point?

Edit: If no complaints, why are our students failing miserably compared to other countries?

seavill

micropig wrote: »

I never said I had no issue, but I reduce behaviour problems as much as I can by planning interesting lessons. If my students tell me I'm boring, I take it as feedback and find out what type of activities they like doing. I take this feedback and use it to inform my future lessons.

Maybe others do not plan properly or care what their students enjoy doing. Maybe they fail them if the student says they are boring?

I am suggesting Irish teachers are give more power to deal with beahviour issues & are supported more

Yes but less pay offered will attract people who actually want to and are interested in teaching -see my point?

Maybe this is what I and many others do also. Why are you so keen to say that all Irish teachers are the complete opposite of this. And please don't quote Pisa.

I was not being smart by saying see my point you clearly were however I do see your point. I believe people who want to teach will do it whatever the money

micropig

seavill wrote: »

Maybe this is what I and many others do also. Why are you so keen to say that all Irish teachers are the complete opposite of this. And please don't quote Pisa.

I was not being smart by saying see my point you clearly were however I do see your point. I believe people who want to teach will do it whatever the money

I never suggested all Irish teachers are like this, but they're certainly is a large element. I am not suggesting we remove good teachers, just ineffective ones.

Most of my comments are made in response to 'behaviour' issues teachers said they had. Any issues so far haven't been behaviour issues but teacher issues and some of the questions that where asked really shocked me that teachers didn't have the solutions themselves

Re: reducing correcting time
re: what can you do if a student........
re: Sure what good would technology do? etc
re: sure what good would resources & facilities be?
re: reducing planning time
re: not been landed with 9 classes to prepare the night before
:eek::eek:

Now I have to sleep, need to be up bright & early in case I need to give out s*it to a student who comes from a disfunctional background about not having a pen. (as if things were crap enough at home for him)

spurious

micropig wrote: »

Now I have to sleep, need to be up bright & early in case I need to give out s*it to a student who comes from a disfunctional background about not having a pen. (as if things were crap enough at home for him)

Let's hope he doesn't punch you in the face. Would that be a behaviour issue?

In the real world, where teachers are assaulted by students (and their equally dysfunctional parents) and cannot 'remove' a student from the class (or indeed the school in many cases) what would you do then? He arrives back in your class having assaulted you in front of the others and you cannot refuse to take him.

Do you have any idea at all what actually goes on in schools?

micropig

spurious wrote: »

Let's hope he doesn't punch you in the face. Would that be a behaviour issue?

In the real world, where teachers are assaulted by students (and their equally dysfunctional parents) and cannot 'remove' a student from the class (or indeed the school in many cases) what would you do then? He arrives back in your class having assaulted you in front of the others and you cannot refuse to take him.

Do you have any idea at all what actually goes on in schools?

Depends on why the students is lashing out
a)because home life is crap and he gets the same nonsense from teachers
b) he feels schools is irrelevant
c)he is frustrated at going to school in substandard conditions with no resources / support for his emotion needs
d) is he the teacher trying to get him to sit there for 40 minutes
e)another reason
f) He just feels like it

I don't think if the reasons are a-e it is necessarily the students fault, regardless there should be support to help students deal with behaviour problems.

Yes, I know exactly what goes on in schools. Can you comprehend the title of the thread?

seavill

micropig wrote: »

I never suggested all Irish teachers are like this, but they're certainly is a large element. I am not suggesting we remove good teachers, just ineffective ones.

Most of my comments are made in response to 'behaviour' issues teachers said they had. Any issues so far haven't been behaviour issues but teacher issues and some of the questions that where asked really shocked me that teachers didn't have the solutions themselves

Re: reducing correcting time
re: what can you do if a student........
re: Sure what good would technology do? etc
re: sure what good would resources & facilities be?
re: reducing planning time
re: not been landed with 9 classes to prepare the night before
:eek::eek:

Now I have to sleep, need to be up bright & early in case I need to give out s*it to a student who comes from a disfunctional background about not having a pen. (as if things were crap enough at home for him)

I was going to reply but I have taken a new attitude towards idiotic posts

I came for a mature discussion and it is clear no matter what I will not get one here I would have been better off in AH

And just to finish if a dear friend of mine suddenly got a heart attack whether or not they had 50 lesson plans ready for me I would still have prep to do.

I respectfully ask you not to refer to my friend or that situation again in this thread

spurious

The mods are looking at one-issue posters who have re-regged to get around bans.

This thread smells highly of it.

savvyav

micropig wrote: »

Not just sitting in front of a computer. games on the IBW, videoing themselves etc.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it, I cannot see how the majority of students will retain anything about a language from playing a computer game. And as for your earlier point about using software for grammar and vocabulary exercises, I would like to point out that I use a very old-fashioned version of this software called 'books'. They may not be as exciting but they are even more effective. Let's not forget that the vast majority of students will actually have to handwrite (gasp!) their state exams and, judging by the state of the barely legible handwriting I get on homework exercises, this is another area that needs to be improved.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter how many fancy things you use in the classroom, if you are a good teacher it will come across and if you're a rubbish teacher fancy computer games will make no difference.

micropig

seavill wrote: »

I was going to reply but I have taken a new attitude towards idiotic posts

I came for a mature discussion and it is clear no matter what I will not get one here I would have been better off in AH

And just to finish if a dear friend of mine suddenly got a heart attack whether or not they had 50 lesson plans ready for me I would still have prep to do.

I respectfully ask you not to refer to my friend or that situation again in this thread

With all due respect it was you who brought up the issue. My questions related to why one teacher had the power to disrupt the learning of 270 students and land an unexpected workload on their colleague.

savvyav wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it, I cannot see how the majority of students will retain anything about a language from playing a computer game. And as for your earlier point about using software for grammar and vocabulary exercises, I would like to point out that I use a very old-fashioned version of this software called 'books'. They may not be as exciting but they are even more effective. Let's not forget that the vast majority of students will actually have to handwrite (gasp!) their state exams and, judging by the state of the barely legible handwriting I get on homework exercises, this is another area that needs to be improved.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter how many fancy things you use in the classroom, if you are a good teacher it will come across and if you're a rubbish teacher fancy computer games will make no difference.

yes, but children engage more with technology and surely any method which engages them in learning the language can only be a good thing. Not all students engage with books or the teacher talking, so yes I think language games, talk in the language, drama in the language, singing in the language, practicing their verbs and spelling can all be great strategies which can be used when learning a language.

If you are a good teacher, you will find out about new advances in education and use them in your classroom. A bad teacher only uses one technique, as not all students learn by the same method. Why not make learning fun & interesting for the children? How are our language students doing in relation to other countries?

Barely legible handwriting? - this says a lot about the standard of teaching in primary schools

The Black Oil

micropig wrote: »

yes, but children engage more with technology

Where are you getting this from, please?

micropig

Black Oil wrote: »

Where are you getting this from, please?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your question is serious

Link to show I'm wrong please
here a link to back up my point

Many others available on the web. I also have personal experience of this. Ask the children which would they rather: Book & teacher talking or investigating and learning themselves using technology?

micropig

Here a link to show Irish teachers well paid compared to other sectors

Here a link to show just how little our students are achieving compared to other countries You can change the country to what ever country you who like to compare it too. (overall we are ranked 167th)

here's a table for those who don't click the link & research themselves
Country Duration of secondary Education Education Attainment Secondary Education spending (% of GDP)
Ireland 5 years (rank 162th|) 22%(rank 18th) 5.5% Rank 44th (4% more than UK) & (20% more that germany)
UK 7years (rank27th) *40% more than Ireland 37% (rank 13th 68% more than Ireland) 5.3% ranked 47th
Germany 9 years (ranked 1st) 80% more than Ireland 59% (ranked 3rd) 168% more than Ireland 4.6%( Ranked 69th)


Our children achieve less and cost more than other countries.
And still we have no problems? Or is it just we can't see the solutions?

2006: Severe fall in primary school students' Irish speech levels

2006 78% of education budget spent on teachers salaries

If you pay the highest wages, you don't always get the best people

seavill

micropig wrote: »

With all due respect it was you who brought up the issue. My questions related to why one teacher had the power to disrupt the learning of 270 students and land an unexpected workload on their colleague.

I'm sure I am going to get banned for this but you are clearly an IDIOT. Every other person who has responded can see the scenario I have explained however you are the only one who does not get the logic behind what I say. I would argue with the mods that you are clearly and Idiot and that this is not abusive just fact.

I await the response from you about how "is this how you speak to your students etc etc etc.

Just to save you a bit of time I will not be responding anymore so you are wasting your time even responding

The Black Oil

The technology issue is not as black and white as you've been asserting throughout the thread. It's not an either/or choice books vs. IT. Plenty of teachers divide kids into groups based on a colour/animals/number and kids can learn that way/reading aloud, too.

itzme

Really interesting question posed in this thread but terribly disappointing debate unfortunately. OP you've started off on the wrong vein of thought, IMO, altogether. You have just picked some really simple problems that you can understand and tried to come up with simple answers. It would be very beneficial if you truly are interested in this problem to take a step back.
Education is a system not a set of equipment and facilities. In fact it is a truly complicated system involving much more than teachers, schools and the students which has not been solved anywhere. Taking it from a simple point of view, we input kids into it and we get out adults capable of being useful in society. You talk about "Improved student attainment", "improved resources..." and so on and you haven't even thought about what we want out of students when they finish the education system. I would suggest you look into people like Ken Robinson.
We have the big companies in Ireland (and abroad) saying education isn't fit for purpose as we are not producing adults who are critical, creative and independent workers. Based on this we have started pushing for more testing, more standardisation, more forcing of teachers to follow rigid curricula and lesson plans tailored to the average not to the students they actually have in the class. This is so we can measure on a month to month basis individuals. Whats even worse is we have been going down this road or more testing, more standardisation slowly over the last 10-15 years and its only been "producing" worse graduates.
We need to start again and get a societal description of what we want from our education system and then start asking questions. Without that the questions you pose are only short term stop gaps that won't help anything. In other words, is our education system just about producing workers? Is it not meant to be about teaching ethics, creativity, showing students the wealth of opportunities out there and allowing them to make an informed decision about their potential future.

My own view, the most important thing after making this decision is to empower teachers and principals and lecturers (and so on) to do their jobs. We need to give these educators the power to be innovative (standardised testing nationwide, regular testing does not do this, it does the exact opposite it constricts them).
To do this what we need to do two things give some teeth to admins like principals/heads of departments to be able to suspend and potentially sack teachers/lecturers who aren't up to scratch. This decision should be made by the principal.
The second thing is to help them, we need to move to an inspection system that does not inspect the individual educator which just removes the authority of the principal and pressurises the educator to fit their teaching/class to standards/practices that may not be fit for their students. The inspectors should be using the reports they get from essentially the managers (principals / heads) to give these managers the support/power they need to improve their school/department.

I haven't gone into too much detail on these topics because the post would be too long, if posters find anything interesting and want me to flesh out anything just ask. Micropig, in the thread so far, to me, you have responded to difficult/important questions with simple answers. To me, this shows a lack of understanding of the real problems in educating in general (let alone in the education system) and it shows a lack of experience or possibly even interest.

Benicetomonty

I'm not sure how to measure the'decline' micropig keeps referring to. I can only assume it's relative to other countries, (which is a concern certainly) but if you truly believe the teaching and learning in Ireland specifically has actually gotten worse over the last 40 years, you are effectively advocating a return to corporal punishment, the complete removal of students with learning disabilities and the abandonment of multiple-learning styles of teaching, which, imo, are all areas in which we have made huge progress.

And for someone who so espouses the use of technology in schools, you seem to overlook the reality that instant messaging and texting are two of the biggest reasons for the decline in literacy (or at least spelling) over the last 5 years.

micropig

seavill wrote: »

I'm sure I am going to get banned for this but you are clearly an IDIOT. Every other person who has responded can see the scenario I have explained however you are the only one who does not get the logic behind what I say. I would argue with the mods that you are clearly and Idiot and that this is not abusive just fact.

I await the response from you about how "is this how you speak to your students etc etc etc.

Just to save you a bit of time I will not be responding anymore so you are wasting your time even responding

Well if it's idiotic to think that school should be about children learning and not teachers teaching then, I'm an idiot

If it is logical to say that the absence of 1 teacher should not affect the learning of 270 children, then I'm an idiot

If is ok for teachers to be asked to plan 9 classes the night before, then I'm an idiot

If the children can write in their exams, I can not answer the question because an ill-prepared teacher took the lesson that day and did not consider my learning needs, then yes I am a complete idiot

Black Oil wrote: »

The technology issue is not as black and white as you've been asserting throughout the thread. It's not an either/or choice books vs. IT. Plenty of teachers divide kids into groups based on a colour/animals/number and kids can learn that way/reading aloud, too.

I suggested it should be used more, alongside books and other teaching strategies

itzme wrote: »

Really interesting question posed in this thread but terribly disappointing debate unfortunately. OP you've started off on the wrong vein of thought, IMO, altogether. You have just picked some really simple problems that you can understand and tried to come up with simple answers. It would be very beneficial if you truly are interested in this problem to take a step back.
Education is a system not a set of equipment and facilities. In fact it is a truly complicated system involving much more than teachers, schools and the students which has not been solved anywhere. Taking it from a simple point of view, we input kids into it and we get out adults capable of being useful in society. You talk about "Improved student attainment", "improved resources..." and so on and you haven't even thought about what we want out of students when they finish the education system. I would suggest you look into people like Ken Robinson.
We have the big companies in Ireland (and abroad) saying education isn't fit for purpose as we are not producing adults who are critical, creative and independent workers. Based on this we have started pushing for more testing, more standardisation, more forcing of teachers to follow rigid curricula and lesson plans tailored to the average not to the students they actually have in the class. This is so we can measure on a month to month basis individuals. Whats even worse is we have been going down this road or more testing, more standardisation slowly over the last 10-15 years and its only been "producing" worse graduates.
We need to start again and get a societal description of what we want from our education system and then start asking questions. Without that the questions you pose are only short term stop gaps that won't help anything. In other words, is our education system just about producing workers? Is it not meant to be about teaching ethics, creativity, showing students the wealth of opportunities out there and allowing them to make an informed decision about their potential future.

My own view, the most important thing after making this decision is to empower teachers and principals and lecturers (and so on) to do their jobs. We need to give these educators the power to be innovative (standardised testing nationwide, regular testing does not do this, it does the exact opposite it constricts them).
To do this what we need to do two things give some teeth to admins like principals/heads of departments to be able to suspend and potentially sack teachers/lecturers who aren't up to scratch. This decision should be made by the principal.
The second thing is to help them, we need to move to an inspection system that does not inspect the individual educator which just removes the authority of the principal and pressurises the educator to fit their teaching/class to standards/practices that may not be fit for their students. The inspectors should be using the reports they get from essentially the managers (principals / heads) to give these managers the support/power they need to improve their school/department.

I haven't gone into too much detail on these topics because the post would be too long, if posters find anything interesting and want me to flesh out anything just ask. Micropig, in the thread so far, to me, you have responded to difficult/important questions with simple answers. To me, this shows a lack of understanding of the real problems in educating in general (let alone in the education system) and it shows a lack of experience or possibly even interest.

yes I have said what I want children to get out of the system:
Independent learners and researchers, who can investigate problems for themselves, decide whether the information is valid and relevant and be able to apply it in real life situations.

I think Irish teachers need to step back from the system and think about what they are teaching, the benefits of it and why they are using the strategies they are to teach it.

Is the childrens behaviour because of the strategies and equipment the teacher is using?

+1 on your last paragraph & I've already suggest looking at the curriculum, how we are teaching the children and why we are teaching them the content they are

micropig

Benicetomonty wrote: »

I'm not sure how to measure the'decline' micropig keeps referring to. I can only assume it's relative to other countries, (which is a concern certainly) but if you truly believe the teaching and learning in Ireland specifically has actually gotten worse over the last 40 years, you are effectively advocating a return to corporal punishment, the complete removal of students with learning disabilities and the abandonment of multiple-learning styles of teaching, which, imo, are all areas in which we have made huge progress.

And for someone who so espouses the use of technology in schools, you seem to overlook the reality that instant messaging and texting are two of the biggest reasons for the decline in literacy (or at least spelling) over the last 5 years.

No I'm not. Why corporal punishment etc.
This is what I've suggested:
Use new technology to engage children in learning and make it more fun for them
Rewards & behaviour system within schools improved-teachers & principals given control over tackling behaviour
Teachers ringing home to say student good/bad
Parents made more responsible for their children
Principals inspecting teachers more
More resources put in in to SNA's & learning support
Expanding the styles of teaching
Increasing teaching techniques use in the classroom
............etc etc

Links to show it's texts & emails that effects spelling and not ineffective teachers in primary schools (Have a look at some other threads here)

Link to show advantage & good practices using technology in the classroom

Some interesting videos for teachers to watch & learn from

Feeona

I think most teachers go above and beyond their duty for the children in their care. I think this because I have observed it.

There are some who don't but if anyone can give me an example of a profession where every single person in that profeesion goes above and beyond their daily tasks, that would be great.

I really don't see the point of this thread to be honest. Micropig is badgering excellent teachers to explain themselves. When they do explain themselves, he/she ignores what they say and then asks inflammatory questions. I mentioned that a lot of teachers do extra curricular activities and do a fantastic job, unfortunately Micropig had to point out that every teacher should be doing extra curricular activities, despite the fact that he/she does not know if those particular teachers are part of committees such as Cumann na mBunscol and so are doing things outside their remit.

I really must commend Blackoil for his/her contribution. Blackoil is neither a parent or teacher, and yet has a fantastic understanding of how a school is run.

Which is really more than can be said for Micropig. His/her insulting posts directed at the teachers in this forum have no place in debate and I really don't understand why he/she is allowed to evade answers to questions while simultaneously insulting professionals who work damn hard at their jobs.

micropig

Feeona wrote: »

I think most teachers go above and beyond their duty for the children in their care. I think this because I have observed it.

There are some who don't but if anyone can give me an example of a profession where every single person in that profeesion goes above and beyond their daily tasks, that would be great.

I really don't see the point of this thread to be honest. Micropig is badgering excellent teachers to explain themselves. When they do explain themselves, he/she ignores what they say and then asks inflammatory questions. I mentioned that a lot of teachers do extra curricular activities and do a fantastic job, unfortunately Micropig had to point out that every teacher should be doing extra curricular activities, despite the fact that he/she does not know if those particular teachers are part of committees such as Cumann na mBunscol and so are doing things outside their remit.

I really must commend Blackoil for his/her contribution. Blackoil is neither a parent or teacher, and yet has a fantastic understanding of how a school is run.

Which is really more than can be said for Micropig. His/her insulting posts directed at the teachers in this forum have no place in debate and I really don't understand why he/she is allowed to evade answers to questions while simultaneously insulting professionals who work damn hard at their jobs.

I am not badgering teachers to explain themselves-I am shocked that they are unwilling to see the solutions themselves & blame all behaviour on the children without examining their teaching styles.

No place for debate about how our education system??
Please point out where I have evaded questions?
Asking teachers to think about their teaching style and how it effects the pupils behaviour is insulting?
I never said some teachers didn't work hard, but I did suggest if all children in the lesson could not engage they are not doing it right. Please provide links to show that if the student does not have the ability it is his own fault he can't do the work and not the teachers preparation

Frankly teachers defensive attitude and inability examine what they are doing and admit there is problems is insulting to the public. But maybe now others will see what is happening and what approach some take.


I even asked in one post for someone to clarify the issues if I had interpreted them correctly
Are we following a policy now where nobody is allowed to question what is wrong and teachers are infallible?

Again, if the system is so fantastic, with great facilities & teachers why are our students under performing?

Dave0301

micropig wrote: »

No I'm not. Why corporal punishment etc.
This is what I've suggested:
Use new technology to engage children in learning and make it more fun for them
Rewards & behaviour system within schools improved-teachers & principals given control over tackling behaviour
Teachers ringing home to say student good/bad
Parents made more responsible for their children
Principals inspecting teachers more
More resources put in in to SNA's & learning support
Expanding the styles of teaching
Increasing teaching techniques use in the classroom
............etc etc

I think what you are saying has a lot of merit to it and also that you'd find a lot of teachers in the Irish system would appreciate and encourage these kind of resources and procedures.

The reason you're being met with such opposition is that it isn't just a simple case of snapping your fingers and making this happen. The country is....well not in a good place financially lets say. You're looking at this from a very idealistic point of view. I haven't followed the whole thread but I gathered you've teaching experience in England? Now teaching over there is far more regulated and certain standards are set and have to be followed. Again I personally wouldn't be opposed to seeing Ireland implementing something similar but unfortunately it isn't as simplistic as you are making it out to be!

Toto Wolfcastle

seavill infracted for personal abuse.

This thread is a mess. This debate needs to continue without getting personal or people will be infracted/banned and the thread will be locked.

Stick to the topic without getting personal.

I'm now going to delete all the off-topic bickering.

micropig

Dave0301 wrote: »

I think what you are saying has a lot of merit to it and also that you'd find a lot of teachers in the Irish system would appreciate and encourage these kind of resources and procedures.

The reason you're being met with such opposition is that it isn't just a simple case of snapping your fingers and making this happen. The country is....well not in a good place financially lets say. You're looking at this from a very idealistic point of view. I haven't followed the whole thread but I gathered you've teaching experience in England? Now teaching over there is far more regulated and certain standards are set and have to be followed. Again I personally wouldn't be opposed to seeing Ireland implementing something similar but unfortunately it isn't as simplistic as you are making it out to be!

I never said snap you're fingers and it will happen.
I know they're are issues and that is what I want to discuss in this thread.
Why not be idealistic? If your talking about changing a system, why not talk about what is ideal
The title of the thread is what would you do to improve but according to some teachers there are no issues and nothing can be improved??

Any most if not all of the 'behaviour' issues brought up in this thread are not behaviour problems at all

caroline72

Im not sure you are a teacher micropig because you have found so much time to be on boards today.......or is this because your students are so well behaved due to your excellent teaching techniques that you can be on your smartphone at the same time as they complete their differentiated worksheets?

Not being smart but it seems to me that you don't really have a realistic knowledge of schools today so therefore I question whether your posts are genuine, or just trolling.

Toto Wolfcastle

micropig wrote: »

The title of the thread is what would you do to improve but according to teachers there are no issues and nothing can be improved??

Add a 'some' in front of 'teachers' in that sentence and you'll have a post that is allowed in this forum. We do not allow sweeping statement about all teachers (or anyone else for that matter) in this forum.

caroline72 wrote: »

Im not sure you are a teacher micropig because you have found so much time to be on boards today.......or is this because your students are so well behaved due to your excellent teaching techniques that you can be on your smartphone at the same time as they complete their differentiated worksheets?

Not being smart but it seems to me that you don't really have a realistic knowledge of schools today so therefore I question whether your posts are genuine, or just trolling.

If you have a problem with a post report it.


I suggest that posters read my warning again before posting.

#15

micropig wrote: »

Our children achieve less and cost more than other countries.

Reading and Science in PISA was average and above average, respectively.

Maths was below average.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

2006 78% of education budget spent on teachers salaries

Figures from 6 years ago. Brilliant.

Is there any reason why you are ignoring the more recent figures I mentioned?

Dave0301

micropig wrote: »

I never said snap you're fingers and it will happen.
I know they're are issues and that is what I want to discuss in this thread.
Why not be idealistic? If your talking about changing a system, why not talk about what is ideal
The title of the thread is what would you do to improve but according to teachers there are no issues and nothing can be improved??

Any most if not all of the 'behaviour' issues brought up in this thread are not behaviour problems at all

Apologies if I took you up wrong, just some of the posts implied you thought it should be easy to implement but I only read from about page 10!

As for the idealism, I agree that if the system is to be changed it should be to very best and idealistic level attainable. The idealism I was referring to was how it should/could be brought in. Which is why I alluded to the country's present financial situation. All it takes is a cursory glance at the papers and news to see it's gonna be a long time before anything like an education overhaul can be feasible. Clearly this isn't good enough nor would I use it as an excuse to let standards slip further.

One thing I would disagree with you on is your stance on the present teaching staff. The vast majority I would hazard a guess at know that there is room for improvements and would only love to see some much needed changes. You seem to feel that many teachers though are happy to just let it go and aren't trying their best?

micropig

#15 wrote: »

Reading and Science in PISA was average and above average, respectively.

Maths was below average.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand?



Figures from 6 years ago. Brilliant.

Is there any reason why you are ignoring the more recent figures I mentioned?

Please proveide links to the figures you mentioned. I added a link with the most recent figures & comparisons

Dave0301 wrote: »

Apologies if I took you up wrong, just some of the posts implied you thought it should be easy to implement but I only read from about page 10!

As for the idealism, I agree that if the system is to be changed it should be to very best and idealistic level attainable. The idealism I was referring to was how it should/could be brought in. Which is why I alluded to the country's present financial situation. All it takes is a cursory glance at the papers and news to see it's gonna be a long time before anything like an education overhaul can be feasible. Clearly this isn't good enough nor would I use it as an excuse to let standards slip further.

One thing I would disagree with you on is your stance on the present teaching staff. The vast majority I would hazard a guess at know that there is room for improvements and would only love to see some much needed changes. You seem to feel that many teachers though are happy to just let it go and aren't trying their best?

Never said easy to implement across the board.
Enough money was provided in the education budget a few years ago and the issue of resources was not addressed, so I'm not believing that lack of money is the real problem.

Why was this money not spent on setting up proper learning support systems & investing in facilities? - The answer to this question may be the real problem

Many of the suggestions I made do not cost money

If you read this thread some teachers are saying:
Technology will not improve conditions and engage pupils, thus reducing the behaviour issues they have to address.
The facilities are fine and everything is ok
Getting students to peer & self assess will not reduce correcting time for them
Sharing plans and planning together will not reduce planning time


It's from the answers in this thread I have informed my opinion, that some teachers are happy enough

Also never said teachers aren't trying their best or working hard but to give an example

If I push a wheel barrow 5 miles in the wrong direction, I am working hard but not achieving what I should be

#15

Micropig, you should watch all of these videos.

Your contribution to this thread is of a poor standard and these will help get you up to speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR9_zy2FVS8

Do schools kill creativity?

Learning revolution

What can the world learn from Finland?

child driven education.

micropig

#15 wrote: »

Micropig, you should watch all of these videos.

Your contribution to this thread is of a poor standard and these will help get you up to speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR9_zy2FVS8

Do schools kill creativity?

Learning revolution

What can the world learn from Finland?

child driven education.

Links to figures you quoted in previous post please

Toto Wolfcastle

#15 infracted for ignoring mod warning not to get personal. There will be no more infractions handed out. From now on I will be banning people.

This thread is very close to being locked unless the discussion gets back on track.

Feeona

micropig wrote: »

Also never said teachers aren't trying their best or working hard but to give an example

That's fantastic that you think teachers are trying their best because you certainly didn't give that impression throughout the thread. I agree whole-heartedly with your new sentiment that teachers are doing their best.

micropig

Feeona wrote: »

That's fantastic that you think teachers are trying their best because you certainly didn't give that impression throughout the thread. I agree whole-heartedly with your new sentiment that teachers are doing their best.

I said many times that some teachers work very hard and try their best.

My point being on this issue is:

IF they had more resources, support managing behaviour, sna's, back up from parents etc, it would be possible for them to do better?
If there was a system where lessons are planned in advance & stored on the school system, would it eliminate the need for some teachers to stay up half the night planning if a colleague for whatever reason is absent on short notice.

So IF some teachers had what I describe above, would the amount some students are learning and retaining increase?

Less behaviour issues distracting them from learning
More engaging equipment & resources
Teachers & parents on their case if they are not performing etc

Link of one example, where I praise some teachers for working hard

Feeona

micropig wrote: »

I said many times that some teachers work very hard and try their best.

My point being on this issue is:

IF they had more resources, support managing behaviour, sna's, back up from parents etc, it would be possible for them to do better?

So IF some teachers had what I describe above, would the amount some students are learning and retaining increase?

Less behaviour issues distracting them from learning
More engaging equipment & resources
Teachers & parents on their case if they are not performing etc

As for your first point, you went on a crusade to tar another poster as a bad teacher, so I really don't believe this is a point you've been asserting all along.

Your other questions have already been answered several times over, but you seemed to have missed the answers. As a teacher, you are trained to deal with distracting behaviours although no training will ever prepare you for the real thing. Behaviour is also an issue in over crowded classrooms, or with children with special needs who are lost in a mainstream setting.
Most schools have engaging equipment and resources. I don't know why you keep asking about this?
Of course teachers and parents get on their case if they're not performing. Why do you think they don't? Please provide links/examples with your answer.

micropig

Feeona wrote: »

As for your first point, you went on a crusade to tar another poster as a bad teacher, so I really don't believe this is a point you've been asserting all along.

Check link in previous post

Feeona wrote: »

Your other questions have already been answered several times over, but you seemed to have missed the answers. As a teacher, you are trained to deal with distracting behaviours although no training will ever prepare you for the real thing. Behaviour is also an issue in over crowded classrooms, or with children with special needs who are lost in a mainstream setting.
Most schools have engaging equipment and resources. I don't know why you keep asking about this?
Of course teachers and parents get on their case if they're not performing. Why do you think they don't? Please provide links/examples with your answer.

So no behaviour issues in schools then?

I never said bad teacher but:
If the student doesn't have the ability to participate in the lesson is it

a) the students fault for not having the ability? or
b) the teachers fault for not finding out the learning needs of the students and planning accordingly?


Wouldn't investing in resources and state of the art equipment, fit for purpose facilities not go some way to solving the problem of overcrowded classrooms?

Wouldn't spending money on SNA's and proper learning support resources not help solve the problem of special needs children who are lost in a mainstream setting?

What do you consider engaging equipment and resources?

If teachers & parents are on their case, why are they under performing?

Feeona

micropig wrote: »

Check link in previous post



So no behaviour issues in schools then?

I never said bad teacher but:
If the student doesn't have the ability to participate in the lesson is it

a) the students fault for not having the ability? or
b) the teachers fault for now finding out the learning needs of the students and planning accordingly?


Wouldn't investing in resources and state of the art equipment, fit for purpose facilities not go some way to solving the problem of overcrowded classrooms?

Wouldn't spending money on SNA's and proper learning support resources not solve help to the problem of special needs children who are lost in a mainstream setting?

What do you consider engaging equipment and resources?

If teachers & parents are on their case, why are they under performing?

Point one : I stand by my assertion that you went on a crusade to tar another poster as a bad teacher.

Point 2 : why do you think there are no behaviour issues in schools? Please provide examples/links.

Point 3 : You are showing alarming naivety in thinking that a pupil's ability is defined either by themselves or the teacher and that no other factors are involved. I would suggest you read the Coleman Report (A report often used in the training of teachers) Link http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/icpsrweb/ICPSR/studies/06389

Point 4 Schools and classes have equipment and resources. But if you want state of the art, you may go begging to NAMA.

Point 5: Of course. But SNA numbers were cut. Where do you thinkt he money is going to come for new SNA's? Please provide recent figures.

Point 6: It doesn't matter what I consider to be engaging. As a teacher, it's my job to figure out what children would find engaging.

Point 7 : Coleman report http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/icpsrweb/ICPSR/studies/06389

micropig

Feeona wrote: »

Point one : I stand by my assertion that you went on a crusade to tar another poster as a bad teacher.

:rolleyes:

Feeona wrote: »

Point 2 : why do you think there are no behaviour issues in schools? Please provide examples/links.

I am not suggesting that they're are not behaviour issues in schools, but I don't believe all of it is caused by students being bad. In my opinion a lot of behaviour issues are caused because of:
a) Lack of SNA support
b)lack of facilities (maybe the equipment is outdated, maybe they are in a prefab, maybe in overcrowded classroom)
c) Students not engaging in lessons (maybe because the are not able, maybe they are gifted & bored, maybe the teaching strategy does not suit the type of learners, maybe they are just not interested in the subject, maybe they don't see the value in learning things off by heart when you can just look it up on the internet (most of have phones)etc)

Feeona wrote: »

Point 3 : You are showing alarming naivety in thinking that a pupil's ability is defined either by themselves or the teacher and that no other factors are involved. I would suggest you read the Coleman Report (A report often used in the training of teachers) Link http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/icpsrweb/ICPSR/studies/06389

Many factors involved but quite easy for some teachers to differentiate the questions asked to include all abilities. Let the students pick themselves what level they work at. Is presenting the student with work they can not do good for their self confidence & attitude to learning?

Feeona wrote: »

Point 4 Schools and classes have equipment and resources. But if you want state of the art, you may go begging to NAMA.

Point 5: Of course. But SNA numbers were cut. Where do you thinkt he money is going to come for new SNA's? Please provide recent figures.

Reduce the amount of the education budget spent on teachers salaries and spend it on facilities. reduced wages will more than likely only attract people who are genuinely interested in education. Teachers & students have better conditions.

Feeona wrote: »

Point 6: It doesn't matter what I consider to be engaging. As a teacher, it's my job to figure out what children would find engaging.

+1

Feeona wrote: »

Point 7 : Coleman report http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/icpsrweb/ICPSR/studies/06389

Not sure a link to a study carried out in the us is relevant, but heres a link to show, over all our educuation system ranks about 167th in the world, you can compare it to any other country

Interesting link on discipline techniques that backfire

tacofries

After the leaving cert look at each subject, and see what school done the best in each individual subject. Take maybe the top 5 schools for each individual subject and then compare how those teachers teach. Look for a common trend and then show that trend to every teacher in the country for that subject.

Overall it should lead to higher scores

Feeona

micropig wrote: »

:rolleyes:


Many factors involved but quite easy for some teachers to differentiate the questions asked to include all abilities. Let the students pick themselves what level they work at. Is presenting the student with work they can not do good for their self confidence & attitude to learning?


Reduce the amount of the education budget spent on teachers salaries and spend it on facilities. reduced wages will more than likely only attract people who are genuinely interested in education. Teachers & students have better conditions.


Not sure a link to a study carried out in the us is relevant, but heres a link to show, over all our educuation system ranks about 167th in the world, you can compare it to any other country

Interesting link on discipline techniques that backfire

Point 1 : I still stand by my assertion that you went on a crusade to tar another poster as a bad teacher.

Point 2: I don't know why you think that presenting a student with work they cannot do is something I agree with.

Point 3 : You did not provide a link with recent figures.

Point 4 : The Coleman Report is a big part of educational training. If you were a person interested in education, you would know about it and be interested in it.

Your link shows Ireland being compared with Germany. Just like you have asserted that a report from America would not be useful in Ireland, I can assert that a report comparing Ireland and Germany would not be useful in Ireland.

I agree with the rest of your post .

micropig

tacofries wrote: »

After the leaving cert look at each subject, and see what school done the best in each individual subject. Take maybe the top 5 schools for each individual subject and then compare how those teachers teach. Look for a common trend and then show that trend to every teacher in the country for that subject.

Overall it should lead to higher scores

Is the leaving certificate the best way though? I'm not sure if the pressure of exams etc and the leaving certificate as it stands, really shows a students progress and achievement.

Are we teaching the right kind of material to set up our children to be successful in life?

I'm of the opinion, the skills we are teaching the children need to be examined and updated to be relevant to the modern world of computers, technology etc. I think we should focus less on subject matter and more on independent inquiry skills etc

Interesting video link Children: Their lives their learning

#15

micropig wrote: »

Links to figures you quoted in previous post please

No chance of you watching the video and showing a genuine interest in the topic then? Thought not.

On that basis, I'll give you the links and exit the thread. I'm only giving you the links so that you cannot continue to make false claims throughout the rest of the thread.

From oecd.org

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/19/13/46971917.pdf

Ireland’s 15-year-old students scored above the OECD average in science.
Students in Ireland performed at the OECD average in reading and below average in
mathematics.

Wrt expenditure

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011-REV.pdf

Pay and pensions for everyone attached to the Department of Education is €5.9 billion. This figure includes the Minister, all staff working within the department, teachers, lecturers, SNAs, caretakers, secretaries, etc. Given a total budget of €8.9 billion, the percentage absorbed by pay and pensions is 66 per cent.

Stop with the 167th nonsense btw. Just think about what you are claiming for a second. I mean, really think about it, in the context of the society in which we live, the wealth of the country, international comparisons, etc. There is no metric that puts any EU-15 country so far down the scale. It's a ridiculous claim.

On that note, I am out.

Miss Lockhart

micropig wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I am not suggesting that they're are not behaviour issues in schools, but I don't believe all of it is caused by students being bad.

It would be interesting to hear what you think is a behavioural problem that is the student's own fault - since you already offered a litany of excuses as to why punching a teacher in the face may not be a student's fault.

I already thought most of what you said was nonsense, but that's where you lost your last shred of credibility.

Also, you seem to believe that only you can define what is or isn't a behavioural problem. Your opinion is not fact.

You appear to have extremely low expectations of students' abilities and behaviours. You want to explain away every example of inattentiveness or poor work as simply down to the teacher. You seem eager to excuse their failings at every hand's turn.

Sometimes students have to be held accountable for their own behaviour and their own work.

No doubt you will reply now by repeating the same statements and questions you have already posted ad nauseum - implying that I am saying there are no behaviour problems, no issues with teaching methodologies, no issues with differentiation, no issues with planning etc etc etc.

NOTE I have not commented one way or the other on these issues.

.

micropig

#15 wrote: »

No chance of you watching the video and showing a genuine interest in the topic then? Thought not.

On that basis, I'll give you the links and exit the thread. I'm only giving you the links so that you cannot continue to make false claims throughout the rest of the thread.

From oecd.org

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/19/13/46971917.pdf



Wrt expenditure

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011-REV.pdf




Stop with the 167th nonsense btw. Just think about what you are claiming for a second. I mean, really think about it, in the context of the society in which we live, the wealth of the country, international comparisons, etc. There is no metric that puts any EU-15 country so far down the scale. It's a ridiculous claim.

On that note, I am out.

Regardsless of my links to show Ireland is http://www.nationmaster.com/red/country/ei-ireland/edu-education&all=1

Sorry I had the figure of 167th in my head but this is to do with time spent in school, so I will admit my mistake there, compared to other countries, is still not good enough though

So average & below average is good enough as indicated in the 2009 stats? In my opinion it is not. Our children are not stupider than children in any other, so that leads me to believe it is the teaching methods and resources we are using.


* in these statistics our junior & senior infants are not included as they are seen on par with Kindergarden/pre school in other countries

**not saying junior & senior infants are not important but the same work is done with the pupils in kindergarden/pre-school

Interesting link: students talking about what they think of the Junior cert reform, it includes them saying:

If I was the Minister for Education and Skills, I would …
> If young people were Minister for Education and Skills for a day, they would change
the Junior Cycle to 2 years and the Senior Cycle to 3 years. They would have fewer
exam subjects in the Junior Cert. Some would introduce continuous assessment in the
form of project-based work or continuous exams.
> If young people had a say in developing the Junior Cycle curriculum, they would offer
a wider choice of subjects and place more emphasis on practical subjects and social
and life skills.
> Young people would also encourage new teaching methods and ways of learning,
such as student-led learning and open discussions.
> If young people were in charge of the Department of Education and Skills, they would
ensure teachers were assessed more rigorously and encourage consultation with
students as regards the assessment of teachers. They would also promote a more
positive relationship between students and teachers.
> Other changes young people would like to make included a school-book renting
scheme in all schools; greater consultation with students and teachers on decisionmaking within schools; better facilities in schools; independent counsellors and drugs
workers in all schools; and no education cut-backs

micropig

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

It would be interesting to hear what you think is a behavioural problem that is the student's own fault - since you already offered a litany of excuses as to why punching a teacher in the face may not be a student's fault.

I already thought most of what you said was nonsense, but that's where you lost your last shred of credibility.

Also, you seem to believe that only you can define what is or isn't a behavioural problem. Your opinion is not fact.

You appear to have extremely low expectations of students' abilities and behaviours. You want to explain away every example of inattentiveness or poor work as simply down to the teacher. You seem eager to excuse their failings at every hand's turn.

Sometimes students have to be held accountable for their own behaviour and their own work.

No doubt you will reply now by repeating the same statements and questions you have already posted ad nauseum - implying that I am saying there are no behaviour problems, no issues with teaching methodologies, no issues with differentiation, no issues with planning etc etc etc.

NOTE I have not commented one way or the other on these issues.

.

Never, should a pupil punch a teacher in the face. I have said before that in some schools a better support system to help teachers deal with behavioral problems is needed and more consequences introduced for students.

But In my opinion the following are not behaviour issues:


Student talking/messing in class because they
a) do not have the ability to participate
b) They are gifted, but not stimulated enough
c) They are asked to sit for long periods while the teacher talks

& pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds have enough problems at home. I think school should be a welcoming place for them (at least they made the effort to turn up) and should not have more hassle from a teacher over not having pens etc..We should be doing all we can to accommodate these types of students in the class and encouraging them attend school.

All of the above are avoidable

Things I would consider behaviour issues
Defying teachers instructions intentionally (but I think teachers need to consider what exactly they are instructing them to do and why it is relevant/necessary)

refusing to participate in the work

Prob a few more


Edit: +1 students need to be held more accountable for their behaviour & work

Edit: link to show 2011 high failure rates for leaving certificate maths & science

micropig

I changed the link in post 247, as I had added the wrong one

Here is the correct link to show how Ireland is doing overall

#15

micropig wrote: »

140th is still not good enough though

140th in years spent in secondary education?

ffs.

So average & below average is good enough as indicated in the 2009 stats?

No it isn't, and this is a prime example of your behaviour in this thread. I've already stated that we need to improve. You thanked the fúcking post ffs.

You asked for a link to my claim that we were average, above average and below average in the 3 PISA subjects.

I gave the link.

Instead of conceding the point and admitting that I was correct, you shift the goalposts and try to imply that I think the results are good enough, despite having already said we need to improve.

micropig

#15 wrote: »

140th in years spent in secondary education?

ffs.


No it isn't, and this is a prime example of your behaviour in this thread. I've already stated that we need to improve. You thanked the fúcking post ffs.

You asked for a link to my claim that we were average, above average and below average in the 3 PISA subjects.

I gave the link.

Instead of conceding the point and admitting that I was correct, you shift the goalposts and try to imply that I think the results are good enough, despite having already said we need to improve.

Ok you are correct, our students are not performing as well as they could
What do you suggest we do about it
Why do you think they are under performing?