How would you solve the problems in the Education system?

micropig

to clariy the 140th
students in a lot of other countries spend more time in secondary school than Irish students. We are rated at 140

Out of 181 countries we are 162 nd ie in 162 countries students spend more time than students in Ireland at secondary school.
1=most time spent in secondary school

#15

micropig wrote: »

Ok you are correct, our students are not performing as well as they could
What do you suggest we do about it
Why do you think they are under performing?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76946981&postcount=109

micropig

#15 wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76946981&postcount=109

Yes and I agreed with you on most of the issues & thanked you post

What exactly are we disagreeing on?
The only thing I disagreed with you was on the new literacy & numeracy plan not working

And asked where you thought we should get the money from???????????

Miss Lockhart

micropig wrote: »

Never, should a pupil punch a teacher in the face.

That is not the same as saying it is the student's own fault for behaving in such a manner.

The only reason I can think of to remove the blame from the student in this situation is that the student is acting in self defence.

However, you found a litany of reasons to remove the blame from the student:

micropig wrote: »

Depends on why the students is lashing out
a)because home life is crap and he gets the same nonsense from teachers
b) he feels schools is irrelevant
c)he is frustrated at going to school in substandard conditions with no resources / support for his emotion needs
d) is he the teacher trying to get him to sit there for 40 minutes
e)another reason
f) He just feels like it

I don't think if the reasons are a-e it is necessarily the students fault, regardless there should be support to help students deal with behaviour problems.

You are very quick to remove accountability from the student.

To me, that smacks of low behavioural expectations.

micropig wrote: »

But In my opinion the following are not behaviour issues:

Student talking/messing in class because they
a) do not have the ability to participate
b) They are gifted, but not stimulated enough

I generally agree.

micropig wrote: »

c) They are asked to sit for long periods while the teacher talks

That really depends. "Long" is a subjective term.

I think students should sit quietly while their teacher talks and if they don't then, with the exception of students with issues such as ADD etc, then it is a behavioural issue.

To pre-empt your tried and tested method of jumping to conclusions and putting words in posters' mouths (see any post in this thread beginning with "by that logic....."): I do not think this scenario should be the way students spend all of their time in class.


Overall, I think you are unlikely to engage teachers in a worthwhile discussion on the issues you want to address. Your confrontational style of putting words in peoples' mouths, selectively quoting and repeating your opinion as fact ad nauseum, all serve to belie your stated desire to discuss these issues with teachers.

You have engaged in this discussion in a style reminiscent of TY-standard debating:

Google a few facts, ignore all context, forget that correlation does not imply causation, quote said facts, jump on opposing team's response with "so what you're saying is you think.....(insert outrageous assertion here)", re-quote facts (still ignoring context), ignore all replies, re-quote facts etc etc etc etc

micropig

not suggesting remove blame from students but suggesting as the adult in the situation the teacher can avoid causing such confrontations

Feeona

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Overall, I think you are unlikely to engage teachers in a worthwhile discussion on the issues you want to address. Your confrontational style of putting words in peoples' mouths, selectively quoting and repeating your opinion as fact ad nauseum, all serve to belie your stated desire to discuss these issues with teachers.

In a nutshell. And you're not the only one to say it. Makes me wonder why the thread is still open?

Miss Lockhart

micropig wrote: »

not suggesting remove blame from students but suggesting as the adult in the situation the teacher can avoid causing such confrontations

You already removed the blame from the student.

"not suggesting remove blame from students but....."

"I'm not racist but......"


Both are equally fraudulent statements.

micropig

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

You already removed the blame from the student.

"not suggesting remove blame from students but....."

"I'm not racist but......"


Both are equally fraudulent statements.

You seem to be deliberately mis- interpretating what I am saying

In some cases the teacher can avoid getting in confrontational situations with the student.

Feeona

micropig wrote: »

You seem to be deliberately mis- interpretating what I am saying

I don't think she is

Miss Lockhart

micropig wrote: »

You seem to be deliberately mis- interpretating what I am saying

I will leave the deliberate misinterpretation to you thanks.

micropig wrote: »

In some cases the teacher can avoid getting in confrontational situations with the student.

That's really irrelevant to the point that you believe that it is "not necessarily the student's fault....". Whether the teacher could have done xyz in no way removes the blame from the student for their behaviour.

So far you appear to me to have low expectations for your students.

Regardless of what teachers should or should not be doing, I believe holding low expectations, behaviourally, socially, morally or academically, is one of the most damaging things a teacher can do to their students.

Contrary to your implication that there are teachers who fail to make allowances for students from disadvantaged backgrounds, I believe that too many teachers lower their expectations of such students and further disadvantage them.

micropig

Feeona wrote: »

I don't think she is

OK Just to make it perfectly clear
What I am saying is as an adult, the teacher can avoid getting in confrontation with the student

For example

Is it the end of the world if a student doesn't have a pen etc? just give them one

If the student is messing etc,In my opinion it is up to the teacher to look at their teaching and adapt it. the student may not have the ability or be gifted. It does not necessarily mean the student is bad and the teacher needs to confrontation as accuse the child of being naughty

Is it really necessary for children to sit for 40 minutes. When do you do this in the real world? If a child gets restless sitting at a desk, can you blame them? In my opinion again a situation easily avoidable by not planning lessons where students are sitting for this long

If the teacher is standing at the top of the class talking for long periods (longer that 5 -10max) and the student gets restless, I do not blame them In my opinion the teacher should talk less and design the lesson so that the student actively investigates the issue themselves.

If a student punches a teacher in the face , this is not acceptable and student must be held fully accountable.

My point being there are ways of avoiding getting in to certain confrontations with students


In my opinion schools school be about facilitating students to learn

Feeona

micropig wrote: »

OK Just to make it perfectly clear

And I want to make it perfectly clear that in my opinion, Miss Lockhart was not deliberately mis-interpreting what you're saying.

byhookorbycrook

Against my better judgement to look back in, but I don't think you understand what an SNA is ,Micropig and how limited their authority is.

As to time spent in school, Irish teachers have more class-contact than many other countries in the EU.
http://www.oecd.org/document/52/0,3746,en_2649_37455_45897844_1_1_1_37455,00.html

micropig

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Against my better judgement to look back in, but I don't think you understand what an SNA is ,Micropig and how limited their authority is.

As to time spent in school, Irish teachers have more class-contact than many other countries in the EU.
http://www.oecd.org/document/52/0,3746,en_2649_37455_45897844_1_1_1_37455,00.html

We are talking about how to improve the system, not what the current term & conditions are


Won't a teacher benefit with another adult helping? Sna's main focus should be with the student they are supporting but if the student doesn't need support for that particular part of the task, it would be great for the teacher if the SNA's could help other students who are struggling

SNA can help out other weak students. SNA sitting at desk with weaker pupils, may help control behaviour

*Teacher is still in charge
**Teacher also helping out students not suggesting all of it/or even most of it is left to SNA

Feeona

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Against my better judgement to look back in, but I don't think you understand what an SNA is ,Micropig and how limited their authority is.

As to time spent in school, Irish teachers have more class-contact than many other countries in the EU.
http://www.oecd.org/document/52/0,3746,en_2649_37455_45897844_1_1_1_37455,00.html

micropig wrote: »

We are talking about how to improve the system, not what the current term & conditions are

I think it would be prudent to take the current situation into account when discussing how to solve the problems in education.

marknjb

if irish teachers have more class time than other countries why are we falling down the league table

Feeona

marknjb wrote: »

if irish teachers have more class time than other countries why are we falling down the league table

Link?

Miss Lockhart

marknjb wrote: »

if irish teachers have more class time than other countries why are we falling down the league table

If I was to adopt the logic beloved of certain posters in this thread I might jump in and say: increasing teacher classroom time decreases educational attainment in students. Teachers should spend less time in the classroom.

But that would be to ignore all context and all the complexities of the situation.

marknjb

new to all this dont know how to do links etc
pretty sure i read it somewhere

Feeona

marknjb wrote: »

new to all this dont know how to do links etc
pretty sure i read it somewhere

You might want to preface your post with 'In my opinion' so

micropig

marknjb wrote: »

if irish teachers have more class time than other countries why are we falling down the league table

I would think, in my opinion, because some of our teachers are less effective and resources & investment in schools are not on par with other countries.I don't think that some teachers have embraced advances in technology and suggest some of our lessons aren't student focused and student led

I'll be back with a link, if I can find one


Edit: & yes being average and below average are falling standards

Feeona

micropig wrote: »

I would think, in my opinion, because some of our teachers are less effective and resources & investment in schools are not on par with other countries.I don't think that some teachers have embraced advances in technology and suggest some of our lessons aren't student focused and student led

In my opinion and in my experience, I think that Irish teachers are very effective and have embraced the advances in technology, and deliver student focused and student led lessons.

marknjb

Feeona wrote: »

In my opinion and in my experience, I think that Irish teachers are very effective and have embraced the advances in technology, and deliver student focused and student led lessons.

feeona in my opinion and in my experience i think that SOME IRISH TEACHERS ARE EFFECTIVE etc etc

Feeona

marknjb wrote: »

feeona in my opinion and in my experience i think that SOME IRISH TEACHERS ARE EFFECTIVE etc etc

No, I think in my experience and in my opinion, Irish teachers are effective etc etc

micropig

I don't claim my opinion is fact, hence I highlight it is my opinion

can you give a suggestion why you think students are under performing and what can be done to improve?

Feeona

micropig wrote: »

I don't claim my opinion is fact, hence I highlight it is my opinion

Still waiting on your link. It doesn't seem to be forthcoming at all!

marknjb

Feeona wrote: »

No, I think in my experience and in my opinion, Irish teachers are effective etc etc

link

Feeona

marknjb wrote: »

link

Hmm, you haven't provided a link yet you want me to. Strange.

Toto Wolfcastle

Thread is just going around in circles at this stage.

Locked.