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Would you sack Kidney, yay, or nay ?
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That's exactly it. The team is rudderless. The management haven't made the most of having two very good outhalves.
They are now in the position where their most important player is injured and is nearing the end of his career and they haven't a breeze on how to cope without him.
The France game last year was similar to the game yesterday. Played well in some isolated moments but lost out to a more clinical, more precise team in the end. Oh, and both games were at home.
Of course, the game yesterday was quite similar to the WC QF too, with our inability to counteract the Welsh play.
We haven't learned from last year's 6Ns and we haven't learned from the WC. Players and management alike need to be refreshed. They had an opportunity to bring in a new backs coach and didn't, lets see if they bring in some fresh players.
forget two out halfs, they have some really top class players at their disposal, and yet we are forced to watch teh tripe that unfolded, other countries would bend over backwards for the like of poc and ferris etc.... kidney is pissing the talent away0 -
Are ye guys even serious, it is only 3 years ago that he led Ireland to its first Grand Slam in 60 years, and only months since we had all of the southern hemisphere saying we were the northern team to watch. Never mind the capitulation against Wales, obviously disappointing, but the went to that world cup as rank outsiders... Let me ask you this, who would you have instead of him(queue Leinster supporters roaring Joe Schmidt) well sorry I fail to believe that his track record is any better than Kidney's, who has 2 Heineken cups to his name, and 2 more finals as well as a Grand Slam.
I hate these bandwagon jumpers, who when things are going well, they are the first to say. " Kidney top man, been saying it for years, should have replaced Eddie years ago . " Th he reality is that we do very well with limited resources, England has 12 top teams competing in its premiership every week, and they still resort to picking, New Zealander's on a regular basis. And still the state of their rugby team at the moment is very poor. We have 3 top class teams and one mediocre one. Granted Wales are in the same boat, but they are going through something of a golden spell at the moment, its only 7 years since they were standing in abyss regularly getting trounced by Ireland, and on one occasion, I recall received the wooden spoon.
Bottom line, let Kidney do his business, he is the right man for the job, for the foreseeable future0 -
Bottom line, let Kidney do his business, he is the right man for the job, for the foreseeable future
Yes, Declan won a grand slam in his first 6 Nations as head coach. Yes, he won 2 Heineken Cups.
That is then, this is now. Since the spring of 2009, Ireland (under Declan Kidney) have not moved forward.
They have had two very good performances (against Eng in last years 6N and Aus in the WC). The remainder has been distinctly average.
He is responsible for the team, he is in charge and he has failed to give this team any direction for almost 3 years now.
Any possible replacements aren't exactly beating down the door but it's time we all started asking serious questions about where this team is going - SURELY?0 -
While I would like to see Kidney go I'm not sure if it would do us any good getting rid now, likely after France we have nothing to play for and you would be causing chaos in the camp. I say let him play out this tournament and then hand him his P45. Unfortunately Kidney who is a genuine guy just hasn't the ability to manage at this standard, I am stunned to think that Kidney is happy to let Kiss, a Defence coach take over the Attack - by his very nature a defence coach is not somebody who thinks lets take the risk (Welsh style) Plus Kiss is a Rugby League man, not exactly a breeding ground for Attacking plays.
Conor O'Shea would do a good job but part of me wants to see us go Southern Hemisphere. Ewen McKenzie from the Reds would be my choice but he is probably nailed on for the OZ job.0 -
buyer95 wrote:I hate these bandwagon jumpers, who when things are going well, they are the first to say. " Kidney top man, been saying it for years, should have replaced Eddie years ago . "
And I hate how people throw words around like "band wagon jumpers" to describe passionate supporters who are sick of their team regularly under-performing.
Our resources compared to England is irrelevant. It's not as if we are plucky underdogs who are punching above their weight - we are better than that. If we expect to be treated as a top tier nation, than we have to drop this attitude of being happy as nearly-rans.buyer95 wrote:Let me ask you this, who would you have instead of him(queue Leinster supporters roaring Joe Schmidt) well sorry I fail to believe that his track record is any better than Kidney's, who has 2 Heineken cups to his name, and 2 more finals as well as a Grand Slam.
Well done, irrelevant provincial sh1t stirring. I don't know who I'd have ahead of him, but it's plain to see that we are not achieving our potential under Kidney. Our game plan simply doesn't work anymore.0 -
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Are ye guys even serious, it is only 3 years ago that he led Ireland to its first Grand Slam in 60 years, and only months since we had all of the southern hemisphere saying we were the northern team to watch. Never mind the capitulation against Wales, obviously disappointing, but the went to that world cup as rank outsiders... Let me ask you this, who would you have instead of him(queue Leinster supporters roaring Joe Schmidt) well sorry I fail to believe that his track record is any better than Kidney's, who has 2 Heineken cups to his name, and 2 more finals as well as a Grand Slam.
I hate these bandwagon jumpers, who when things are going well, they are the first to say. " Kidney top man, been saying it for years, should have replaced Eddie years ago . " Th he reality is that we do very well with limited resources, England has 12 top teams competing in its premiership every week, and they still resort to picking, New Zealander's on a regular basis. And still the state of their rugby team at the moment is very poor. We have 3 top class teams and one mediocre one. Granted Wales are in the same boat, but they are going through something of a golden spell at the moment, its only 7 years since they were standing in abyss regularly getting trounced by Ireland, and on one occasion, I recall received the wooden spoon.
Bottom line, let Kidney do his business, he is the right man for the job, for the foreseeable future
The reason we were the northern side to watch wasnt because of the genius of our coach as you seem to be suggesting but because the SH took a look at our team and said..."hold on a minute, there are some serious operators here". I think you'll find that contradicts almost everything you wrote in your second paragraph.
As for the GS in 09, its fair enough to be blinded by success initially but 3 years down the line you really ought to be getting your sight back, did you not see the game on Sunday.0 -
ANever mind the capitulation against Wales, obviously disappointing, but the went to that world cup as rank outsiders...
And why were we rank outsiders ? Because DC had led us to two poor six nations in a row, and a very poor world cup warm up series. Follows it up with a poor world cup. And a poor start to the next six nations. Noticing the pattern here ?0 -
seanin4711 wrote: »last six nations we beat England (super, otherwise poor 6N for us) ,world cup we get out of the group (equalled what we have always done got out of the group no better , we beat australia,where did they finish up?) and the shambles(tin hat on it) yesterday .
hardly just one game!
For the amount of money that IRFU are willing to pay this best paid coaching set up for very average results post gland slam, I would say that they could take their pick from half a dozen decent coaches.
My list in order of preference!- Jake Whyte
- eddie jones
- clive woodward
- Marc Livremont
- John Kirwan
- Nick Mallet
Anyone that puts Marc Livremont in their top 5 selection to be next Irish coach doesn't deserve an opinion if you ask me! This is the guy who, his own players turned on and refused to let him near the dressing room for both the semi-final and final. The French could handle his eracticism, they decided after the Tonga game that they were going to do it for themeselves, and to be honest Bonaire and Harinordoqouy are special guys, but if he coached Ireland I can imagine, POC not being an automatic starter, John Hayes reinstated ala Chabal, probably as captain, probably would try one of our backs at out half,Earls maybe... Seriously though that made me laugh, Livremont, I wouldnt let him coach the local under 6's B's camogie team0 -
Are ye guys even serious, it is only 3 years ago that he led Ireland to its first Grand Slam in 60 years, and only months since we had all of the southern hemisphere saying we were the northern team to watch. Never mind the capitulation against Wales, obviously disappointing, but the went to that world cup as rank outsiders... Let me ask you this, who would you have instead of him(queue Leinster supporters roaring Joe Schmidt) well sorry I fail to believe that his track record is any better than Kidney's, who has 2 Heineken cups to his name, and 2 more finals as well as a Grand Slam.
I hate these bandwagon jumpers, who when things are going well, they are the first to say. " Kidney top man, been saying it for years, should have replaced Eddie years ago . " Th he reality is that we do very well with limited resources, England has 12 top teams competing in its premiership every week, and they still resort to picking, New Zealander's on a regular basis. And still the state of their rugby team at the moment is very poor. We have 3 top class teams and one mediocre one. Granted Wales are in the same boat, but they are going through something of a golden spell at the moment, its only 7 years since they were standing in abyss regularly getting trounced by Ireland, and on one occasion, I recall received the wooden spoon.
Bottom line, let Kidney do his business, he is the right man for the job, for the foreseeable future
Such an uninformed post, I don't even know where to begin. I'll just say that 7 years ago was 2005 and Wales won a grand slam and I'll leave it at that.0 -
Are ye guys even serious, it is only 3 years ago that he led Ireland to its first Grand Slam in 60 years
3 years is not a short time. Ireland played about 2 good games since then.only months since we had all of the southern hemisphere saying we were the northern team to watch. Never mind the capitulation against Wales, obviously disappointing, but the went to that world cup as rank outsiders...
Yeah...then we lost. Never mind the capitulation against Wales???! Right, so you point out the one good game we had and then say we have to ignore the multitude of poor ones. Great argument. We weren't rank outsiders, we were expected to reach the QFs and then go out. Which, as you may recall, is exactly what we did.Let me ask you this, who would you have instead of him.
Mallet, White, Cotter. Not to mention all the provincial coaches in the SH and club coaches in France who I am not familiar with. That's a terrible argument for keeping him.I hate these bandwagon jumpers, who when things are going well, they are the first to say. " Kidney top man, been saying it for years, should have replaced Eddie years ago .
I was never a Kidney fan. Thought he was the wrong man from the get go. Besides, things haven't been "going well" for two years so not much of a bandwagon.Th he reality is that we do very well with limited resources,
No we don't. Kidney has a worse win ratio then EOS had. We've gone two 6N with only 3 wins (and likely a third) for the first time in our history. We're doing poorer then we were when our squad options and provincial teams were worse.Bottom line, let Kidney do his business, he is the right man for the job, for the foreseeable future
Kidney's business appears to be losing games.0 -
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Are ye guys even serious, it is only 3 years ago that he led Ireland to its first Grand Slam in 60 years, and only months since we had all of the southern hemisphere saying we were the northern team to watch. Never mind the capitulation against Wales, obviously disappointing, but the went to that world cup as rank outsiders... Let me ask you this, who would you have instead of him(queue Leinster supporters roaring Joe Schmidt) well sorry I fail to believe that his track record is any better than Kidney's, who has 2 Heineken cups to his name, and 2 more finals as well as a Grand Slam.
And however many As in his Leaving Cert...0 -
That's exactly it. The team is rudderless. The management haven't made the most of having two very good outhalves.
or hookers, or blindside flankers, or scrumhalfs, or anyone of the team bar second row/outside center for that matter....
We have an abundance of wealth in the majority of positions but we still squeeze good players into bad fits. Rather then take an outside center from one of the provinces, we play a inside center that is individually deemed a better player.
Also we fail to recognise new talent and dont take form into the equation.They are now in the position where their most important player is injured and is nearing the end of his career and they haven't a breeze on how to cope without him.
Leinster can .. so why cant Ireland. Yes hes missed, but the show don't stop because of it at Leinster?The France game last year was similar to the game yesterday. Played well in some isolated moments but lost out to a more clinical, more precise team in the end. Oh, and both games were at home.
We got lost, the players could not read each other. Several times they were looking around in possession not sure were the next pass went.
Also murray/sexton, both simultaneously changed for reddan/o'gara, why separate these club players, baffling! We dont play the well versed alongside each other, taking away from the understanding of each other.Of course, the game yesterday was quite similar to the WC QF too, with our inability to counteract the Welsh play.
No plan B when a welsh player broke through the tackle. As it happened quite often they were unable to keep a flat defensive line and dropped back neither deep in cover or playing the line. In other words nothing.We haven't learned from last year's 6Ns and we haven't learned from the WC. Players and management alike need to be refreshed. They had an opportunity to bring in a new backs coach and didn't, lets see if they bring in some fresh players.
Kidney has demonstrated his ability to ignore new and fresh developments until players go and win HC medals and then they seem to get their "chance" or he has a personal attachment . We do and have ignored a lot of talent over the years, and play only "proven" players, in form or not.
We need a new coach that doesn't have these relationships with the players and have to earn the respect again (look at Joe Schmidt and what he can get out of players, without him having knowledge of them or them of him)
Personally i would have said to him the WC was his last gig and by no means give a new contract before it, unless miracles happened in NZ it was time for a natural change.
In business just because you have won a big deal (Grand Slam) doesn't mean you cannot go on to bigger better deals and sometimes even if a good job is done by a CEO.. its time for change, to enable the company to go after the next challenge.
I believe the players play their heart out for him, but employees loving a boss is not a reason to keep the boss.
My view was formed well before the welsh game and well before the WC, the writing has been on the wall for sometime. Again if this was any other business, the cut would have been professional and happened sometime ago0 -
Are ye guys even serious, it is only 3 years ago that he led Ireland to its first Grand Slam in 60 years, and only months since we had all of the southern hemisphere saying we were the northern team to watch. Never mind the capitulation against Wales, obviously disappointing, but the went to that world cup as rank outsiders... Let me ask you this, who would you have instead of him(queue Leinster supporters roaring Joe Schmidt) well sorry I fail to believe that his track record is any better than Kidney's, who has 2 Heineken cups to his name, and 2 more finals as well as a Grand Slam.
I hate these bandwagon jumpers, who when things are going well, they are the first to say. " Kidney top man, been saying it for years, should have replaced Eddie years ago . " Th he reality is that we do very well with limited resources, England has 12 top teams competing in its premiership every week, and they still resort to picking, New Zealander's on a regular basis. And still the state of their rugby team at the moment is very poor. We have 3 top class teams and one mediocre one. Granted Wales are in the same boat, but they are going through something of a golden spell at the moment, its only 7 years since they were standing in abyss regularly getting trounced by Ireland, and on one occasion, I recall received the wooden spoon.
Bottom line, let Kidney do his business, he is the right man for the job, for the foreseeable future
he isnt, or he would have approached the game looking to win, and prevent wales' big runners, eliminate the best aspects of their game... this he didnt do... tbh i dont know what he was trying to do.. but it wasnt to win the game.
He fails this more often than not, and then comes out with the same crap after every game... we have to work on a few things, take teh positives from the game.... that line has gotten old at this stage.0 -
Leinster can .. so why cant Ireland. Yes hes missed, but the show don't stop because of it at Leinster?
Because Leinster have a coherent, suitable and intelligent style of play. Ireland's direction under Kidney has been stay in the game and hope one of the lads can come up with something special0 -
I think people are over estimating an ageing Ireland team under estimating a very good welsh team and over estimating the level of the Heineken cup.
It wouldn't matter if Alex ferguson was in Charge. Wales are simply a better team.0 -
The reason we were the northern side to watch wasnt because of the genius of our coach as you seem to be suggesting but because the SH took a look at our team and said..."hold on a minute, there are some serious operators here". I think you'll find that contradicts almost everything you wrote in your second paragraph.
As for the GS in 09, its fair enough to be blinded by success initially but 3 years down the line you really ought to be getting your sight back, did you not see the game on Sunday.
Ok the result and overall performance on Sunday was disappointing, I'm not arguing that point, but look at it this way, we were 5 minutes away from beating the wc semi finalist, and if we had, we would go to paris next week, thinking the slam was on again.
My point really is that Kidney is the best man for the job right now, his track record says so. Someone else dismissed my comment asking who they thought would be feasible alternatives, but that is the question, who are you going to get, instead of him?
I'm not deluded, thinking that Kidney is some kind of genius, he isn't, he delegates well and has a good set up in place. But if we sacked him in the morning, realistically were would that leave us? At least give him till the end of the 6 nations, were one game in, back from a good w.c, lost a close game against a very good Wales side and already calls for him to leave...0 -
totallegend wrote: »Such an uninformed post, I don't even know where to begin. I'll just say that 7 years ago was 2005 and Wales won a grand slam and I'll leave it at that.
OK it was 8, jesus...0 -
Because Leinster have a coherent, suitable and intelligent style of play. Ireland's direction under Kidney has been stay in the game and hope one of the lads can come up with something special
Agreed and was kinda my point. Leinster have a plan Z sometimes were Ireland lacks even a plan B. No one planning to pull in or dig out if the tackle was broken yesterday .. its almost arrogant if that is not to strong of a word0 -
Patsy fyre wrote: »I think people are over estimating an ageing Ireland team under estimating a very good welsh team and over estimating the level of the Heineken cup.
It wouldn't matter if Alex ferguson was in Charge. Wales are simply a better team.
POC, Ross, DOC and Darcy are the only players in the twilight of their careers. The first two are still operating at a high level and are essential to the team. In my opinion the other two shouldn't be in the team.
The team is not ageing, its stagnating.0 -
Patsy fyre wrote: »I think people are over estimating an ageing Ireland team under estimating a very good welsh team and over estimating the level of the Heineken cup.
It wouldn't matter if Alex ferguson was in Charge. Wales are simply a better team.
The Irish team is not ageing. A few players are old and not being replaced (D'Arcy and DOC) for inexplicable reasons, which is a management fault. Otherwise the age profile is pretty good.0 -
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Patsy fyre wrote: »I think people are over estimating an ageing Ireland team under estimating a very good welsh team and over estimating the level of the Heineken cup.
It wouldn't matter if Alex ferguson was in Charge. Wales are simply a better team.
The HC is were all the money is .. like Soccer its at club level. its impossible to over estimate the level of the HC.0 -
Ok the result and overall performance on Sunday was disappointing, I'm not arguing that point, but look at it this way, we were 5 minutes away from beating the wc semi finalist, and if we had, we would go to paris next week, thinking the slam was on again.
My point really is that Kidney is the best man for the job right now, his track record says so. Someone else dismissed my comment asking who they thought would be feasible alternatives, but that is the question, who are you going to get, instead of him?
I'm not deluded, thinking that Kidney is some kind of genius, he isn't, he delegates well and has a good set up in place. But if we sacked him in the morning, realistically were would that leave us? At least give him till the end of the 6 nations, were one game in, back from a good w.c, lost a close game against a very good Wales side and already calls for him to leave...
Kidney has a good setup? A defence coach now acting as attack coach? We have no gameplan under Kidney, we won a grand slam in probably the worst Six Nations year playing a brand of rugby that is no longer viable under the new interpretations.0 -
Patsy fyre wrote: »I think people are over estimating an ageing Ireland team under estimating a very good welsh team and over estimating the level of the Heineken cup.
It wouldn't matter if Alex ferguson was in Charge. Wales are simply a better team.
well considering we played crap and they apperently played well and still only barely won the game, i dont think anyone is over/under est anything0 -
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totallegend wrote: »Such an uninformed post, I don't even know where to begin. I'll just say that 7 years ago was 2005 and Wales won a grand slam and I'll leave it at that.[/QUOTE
Wait you ignoramus 7 years ago, 2005 Wales did win it, so you prove yourself to be severely lacking in rugby intelligence, and in turn have rendered yourself a complete idiot:D:D:D0 -
All the money in rugby is most definitely not in the HEC. The Irish team generates significantly more money then provincial teams.
How does one team with 5 matches a year with free to air rights generate more then the HC with many games on Pay per view TV? I would be baffled if the marketing of merchandise alone beats this?0 -
How does one team with 5 matches a year with free to air rights generate more then the HC with many games on Pay per view TV? I would be baffled if the marketing of merchandise alone beats this?
RTÉ and BBC still have to pay for the free to air rights, and pay handsomely. Far more people watch the 6N then the HEC and the rights are comparatively more. Merchandising wise, international rugby has a much bigger impact then provincial rugby as well.
You also have 50,000 tickets at about 80 a pop for every game.0 -
Are ye guys even serious, it is only 3 years ago that he led Ireland to its first Grand Slam in 60 years, and only months since we had all of the southern hemisphere saying we were the northern team to watch. Never mind the capitulation against Wales, obviously disappointing, but the went to that world cup as rank outsiders... Let me ask you this, who would you have instead of him(queue Leinster supporters roaring Joe Schmidt) well sorry I fail to believe that his track record is any better than Kidney's, who has 2 Heineken cups to his name, and 2 more finals as well as a Grand Slam.
I hate these bandwagon jumpers, who when things are going well, they are the first to say. " Kidney top man, been saying it for years, should have replaced Eddie years ago . " Th he reality is that we do very well with limited resources, England has 12 top teams competing in its premiership every week, and they still resort to picking, New Zealander's on a regular basis. And still the state of their rugby team at the moment is very poor. We have 3 top class teams and one mediocre one. Granted Wales are in the same boat, but they are going through something of a golden spell at the moment, its only 7 years since they were standing in abyss regularly getting trounced by Ireland, and on one occasion, I recall received the wooden spoon.
Bottom line, let Kidney do his business, he is the right man for the job, for the foreseeable future
So how do you see our future? I cannot understand how anyone can think he's doing a good job-we have being playing and getting sh1te results for 2 years with the odd exception! We should be building on winning a Grand Slam not slowly falling back towards the dark days of the 90s! Bottom line, he needs to go at the end of this tournament. We aren't going to suddenly turn into world beaters under him, it hasn't happened in the last 2 years, and it sure as hell isn't going to happen in the next 2.0 -
Patsy fyre wrote: »I think people are over estimating an ageing Ireland team under estimating a very good welsh team and over estimating the level of the Heineken cup.
It wouldn't matter if Alex ferguson was in Charge. Wales are simply a better team.
Incorrect. Leinster on their would easily beat that Welsh team. As would Toulouse, and probably Clermont.
So, with a Leinster team fielding 14 out of 15 Irish players beating that team, why can't the Irish team do it?
Gameplan. Or lack thereof.
You're right, the Wales team are better team than Ireland, because they have the WHOLE package - coaching, tactics, gameplan, foresight. Ireland just have the players and nothing else.0 -
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RTÉ and BBC still have to pay for the free to air rights, and pay handsomely. Far more people watch the 6N then the HEC and the rights are comparatively more. Merchandising wise, international rugby has a much bigger impact then provincial rugby as well.
You also have 50,000 tickets at about 80 a pop for every game.
The ERC takes the Sky money from the HCup and I'm not sure what % is given out to clubs so I would say Irish Rugby gets much more from the National side.0
This discussion has been closed.
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