Would you sack Kidney, yay, or nay ?

fitz

The siege mentality thing is complete bullsh*t.
If you've good players, and a good gameplan, you shouldn't have to rely on playing headgames with your own team in order to build them up to a performance.
It's antiquated nonsense.

trackguy

fitz wrote: »

The siege mentality thing is complete bullsh*t.
If you've good players, and a good gameplan, you shouldn't have to rely on playing headgames with your own team in order to build them up to a performance.
It's antiquated nonsense.

No it's not. Used at the right time, it can be a powerful tool for motivation. Kidney overplays the hand though. In fact, he overplays the mind-games completely.

DOC is still in the team because Kidney wrongly believes he can coax international level performances from one of his most trusted lieutenants.

fitz

trackguy wrote: »

fitz wrote: »

The siege mentality thing is complete bullsh*t.
If you've good players, and a good gameplan, you shouldn't have to rely on playing headgames with your own team in order to build them up to a performance.
It's antiquated nonsense.

No it's not. Used at the right time, it can be a powerful tool for motivation. Kidney overplays the hand though. In fact, he overplays the mind-games completely.

DOC is still in the team because Kidney wrongly believes he can coax international level performances from one of his most trusted lieutenants.

My point is, if you have to resort to that kind of thing to motivate players to perform, there's something seriously wrong with the rest of your preparation. I'm not saying that blocking things out and making enemies of your opposing team doesn't have a place, but this "the whole rest of the world is against us" thing is just rubbish. Far more effective to foster belief in a gameplan that's proven effective and that all the players buy in to. I think the reason we lacked intensity at the weekend is that the players know what they've been told to do isn't working, and they're hesitant as a result.

I am pie

I think we didnt have a big or physical enough option at 12, 13 and 14 (ok north is a bit of a freak) , we could have played that team 10 times in a row and come up with the same result. Only with BOD at his peak would we stand at chance. Not sure how different an outcome we ca expect against rougerie and malzieu. Are we big enough to get up in their faces and stop the building up momentum?

funky penguin

Not too worried about them to be honest. Trimble and Bowe are big enough lads, and EOM proved that he can handle Rougerie in the HEC in 2010, which I assume is why Kidney has started hi.....


......oh.

Vanhalla

Kidney should be gotten rid of for sure. If we had a team like italy or scotland then he would be a good coach for teams like that.
but we have far more talent and once again like under o sullivan its being underused. am sick of this conservative shyte!
would love to see schmidt over the irish team but will the irfu go after someone like that? no, i spose we will end up with another **** irish conservative coach.

Third_Echelon

This is the type of guy we need in charge....

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/irish-news/cheika-ireland-have-to-physically-dominate-france-to-hell-with-the-consequences-3015905.html

As he pounds the Parisian streets, former Leinster coach Michael Cheika tries not to break stride when asked just how Ireland can emerge from the Stade de France with anything more than frostbite.

Glacial Gallic conditions inhibit any attempts to stop and philosophise like the great thinkers who thronged this glorious city a century ago. Bondi Beach this ain't.

"We're freezing our pieces off here mate," drawls the familiar voice of the Aussie, who led Leinster from the shadows of Munster to their first Heineken Cup success in 2009.

Cheika's advice to Ireland is delivered succinctly and without pomp. The plunging mercury dial requires a heated response. In effect, the Randwick man is calling for controlled aggression.

"To beat France here, you have to play without any regard for yourself," says Cheika, whose 18-month restorative adventure with Stade Francais has brought him to the very heartland of the game here.

"You have to throw everything into it. You have to intimidate them physically. That's a huge part of the game wherever you go in France and I've learned that a lot in my short time here.

frailty

"Physical intimidation can lead to mental frailty. I've seen that happen on both sides of the fence with my team here. One day we can look really great and formidable, another day we look just average.

"Ireland have to play like they played against Australia in the World Cup. That's the standard for me. And that has to become the norm for this Irish team. And when they don't play like that, it has to be viewed as a bit of a surprise."

Cheika operated a blue-nosed shift as analyst for BBC in Paris last weekend as France cruised to victory against Italy, but the majority of the chat when he returned to work after a week off was the failure by Ireland to set up a potential Grand Slam clash tomorrow night.

"There's huge respect there and it all emanates from provincial rugby. Guys were coming into my office on Monday morning saying, how can Ireland lose? They've got three teams in the final eight of the Heineken Cup quarter-finals. They see the Irish play in Europe and they wonder why it doesn't translate."

Cheika used to wonder that too until the Grand Slam happened, when a belated congregation of kindred provincial spirits adopted a mentality and a game-plan -- however limited -- that earned its just reward.

Since then, Irish international rugby has effectively achieved nothing -- bar a one-off World Cup win against Australia -- to indicate a sense of continuity or organic development from that all-conquering 2009 season. As Cheika walks and talks through Paris, you sense that despite the geographical distance that separates him from his erstwhile bailiwick, it's a theme that still intrigues him.

Fidelity to certain former colleagues may inhibit him from giving full expression to those misgivings, but a related enquiry about the hastily installed IRFU policy restricting the foreign influx of players, in which area Cheika was most influential -- Nacewa, Hines, Elsom, Wright, et al -- scrapes the surface of his suspicion.

"It's not my game to talk about," he does reasonably insist. "It's theirs. They can do what they want. What I do know is that within the competitions of the Heineken and the Rabo, it's flourishing over there. Young players are thriving, crowds are great and, you know, a lot of other countries are envious of the crowds and the performances.

"I don't really see anything in the last six or seven years that has been detrimental to the game in Ireland. But as I said, it's not my game to talk about."

He's immersed in a new game now. Cheika, a self-made businessman in the fashion trade before he ever took the oval game seriously, often joked in Dublin that he was not a career coach.

He's got young twins now, so you ask him what the hell is he still doing in such a pressurised environment -- exhibit A, haranguing ERC referees after losing last year's Challenge Cup final to Conor O'Shea's Harlequins in Cardiff.

"I'm more into the rebuilding of things," says the man who utterly over-hauled the culture of Leinster rugby. "It's about believing in a vision. It's all in or nothing, you know.

"I could never coach another team in this championship because I've committed so much of myself to this project.

"It's like I could never coach another team in the Pro12 because I gave my all to Leinster. After this, I might put my feet up and see what happens. But I definitely don't see it as a job."

Having arrived amidst a financial tsunami when the very existence of this famous club was threatened, Cheika's emergence with a team that still threatens to qualify for the play-offs, and remains in European competition, reflects well on his motivational skills.

"There were a few problems here and it was about addressing that. I didn't expect all the financial issues to blow up, but I just had to go through it. We got rid of 16 players and got 21 new ones.

"Slowly but surely the frailties in our club are being repaired. We've still got a long way to go on the playing field.

"There's more of a feeling of club there now, but it's one step at a time. It's hard because you're used to a certain playing level coming from Leinster and it's hard to adjust.

"It is different here. The style of rugby is different, the mentality is different. You have to get used to it."

He doesn't even miss Christmas Day on Bondi. "Ah man, it's been about eight or nine years now."

Cheika knows what he does best now. He hopes Ireland can absorb a similar lesson tomorrow.

"I know a lot of people want to focus on technicalities, but both teams have pluses and minuses and it's really going to be about who wants this one more.

"Ireland have to be physically dominant and to hell with the consequences. They shouldn't be worried about the ramifications of the physical context. Just go for it."

- David Kelly in PAris

sting60

Where are the people who banned me for giving my opinion on the appointment of Kidney.He is shocking ,clueless etc,etc.We are looking at ,at least 17 points hammering. Then to rub salt into the very infected wound RTE roll out Donal Lenehan.At least Thomas Bjorn is making me feel better.100e/w @25/1.I already have backed Ireland not be in first three[before Wales game] such is my lack of confidence in Kidney.

sting60

conno16 wrote: »

what would be the point in sacking him during the 6N?
other than to satisfy a minority of dimwits

Minority is 75% just on this site for his sacking.Please tell us [dimwits] why he should be kept on as manager.Looking for a good laugh.

jacothelad

sting60 wrote: »

Minority is 75% just on this site for his sacking.Please tell us [dimwits] why he should be kept on as manager.Looking for a good laugh.

He should be kept on. He needs to stay in employment with the IRFU until the Ulster Head Coach vacancy is filled.

JustinDee

"Ireland have to be physically dominant"
- No s***, Sherlock.

Benny Cake

JustinDee wrote: »

"Ireland have to be physically dominant"
- No s***, Sherlock.

That interview was about as revealing as a Kidney press conference..

Boom boom!

part time punk

Haven't read through the whole thread so don't know if it's been mentioned. I'm no Kidney apologist and think he should go but at what point do some of the senior players need to take some more responsibility. The team has enough leaders, provincial and Lions captains, even without BOD. So why not just go out and ignore Kidney's instructions and game-plan. He's not going to drop them anyway:D France got to a World Cup final and nearly won it ignoring their coach. I'd love to see Ireland doing something similar.

irishbucsfan

part time punk wrote: »

Haven't read through the whole thread so don't know if it's been mentioned. I'm no Kidney apologist and think he should go but at what point do some of the senior players need to take some more responsibility. The team has enough leaders, provincial and Lions captains, even without BOD. So why not just go out and ignore Kidney's instructions and game-plan. He's not going to drop them anyway France got to a World Cup final and nearly won it ignoring their coach. I'd love to see Ireland doing something similar.

The rumour is this is exactly what Reddan did against England. I find that hard to believe though.

danthefan

JustinDee wrote: »

"Ireland have to be physically dominant"
- No s***, Sherlock.

Is there criticism of the team in there somewhere? There there, no need to get all precious. Cheika has made some perfectly reasonable comments.

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The rumour is this is exactly what Reddan did against England. I find that hard to believe though.

Heard that too. But that could be a tongue-in-cheek manner of explaining why we played so well and looked a different team/gameplan...

Leinster7

Yes, last year in fact.

leeroybrown

JustinDee wrote: »

"Ireland have to be physically dominant"
- No s***, Sherlock.

Sigh. He makes an extremely valid point. Trying to take the game to the opposition and dominate them for 80 minutes is the almost in direct contravention of what happened on the pitch against Wales and in a reasonable proportion of our test matches in recent times. As Wales took the pitch to impose their strengths on us and dominate the game, I think it's reasonable to ask why we didn't try to do the same?

Ardillaun

I thought Lievremont was a dreadful coach and yet his team still got to the WC final. Kidney has a lot less to work with than the French have. It's true that our provincial teams have done well in the HC with the help of some excellent foreign players but the 6N is a step up and I'm not sure we have the talent to win this with any coach right now. So, yes, I'd like to see him go but I'm not sure it would make that much difference.

phog

Third_Echelon wrote: »

This is the type of guy we need in charge....

I haven't seen any great evidence from him that he would be an improvement. What's his record compared to Kidney's?

danthefan

phog wrote: »

I haven't seen any great evidence from him that he would be an improvement. What's his record compared to Kidney's?

Good jaysus, the entire issue perfectly wrapped up in 6 words.

Who gives a toss what Kidney's record is? He is doing an absolutely ribbish job at the moment and has been for the best part of 2 years, end of story.

For the record I would not like Cheika to take over Ireland but past glories are absolutely meaningless in the current context of the Irish team.

phog

danthefan wrote: »

Good jaysus, the entire issue perfectly wrapped up in 6 words.

Who gives a toss what Kidney's record is? He is doing an absolutely ribbish job at the moment and has been for the best part of 2 years, end of story.

For the record I would not like Cheika to take over Ireland but past glories are absolutely meaningless in the current context of the Irish team.

Did you see the post I replied to, it was in connection with a guy giving his tuppence worth on how Ireland should play and the poster saying that this is the type of guy we need, if you discount his record as a coach as you seem to want me to then he's a nobody.

All grand talking the talk from a coffee shop in Paris.

danthefan

phog wrote: »

Did you see the post I replied to, it was in connection with a guy giving his tuppence worth on how Ireland should play and the poster saying that this is the type of guy we need, if you discount his record as a coach as you seem to want me to then he's a nobody.

All grand talking the talk from a coffee shop in Paris.

Again, all you're looking at is the fact Kidney won a slam and his HECs, which is just nonsense used to justify his position. Can you see how awful a job he's doing at the moment?

As I said above I wouldn't have Cheika either but it's not because he's won less trophies than Kidney.

.ak

Ardillaun wrote: »

I thought Lievremont was a dreadful coach and yet his team still got to the WC final. Kidney has a lot less to work with than the French have. It's true that our provincial teams have done well in the HC with the help of some excellent foreign players but the 6N is a step up and I'm not sure we have the talent to win this with any coach right now. So, yes, I'd like to see him go but I'm not sure it would make that much difference.

Valid point. Except France clearly got to the final without listening to Liebremont...

phog

danthefan wrote: »

Again, all you're looking at is the fact Kidney won a slam and his HECs, which is just nonsense used to justify his position. Can you see how awful a job he's doing at the moment?

As I said above I wouldn't have Cheika either but it's not because he's won less trophies than Kidney.

I never asked you about Kidney or Cheika, I replied to Third_Echelon who said that Cheika was the type of guy we need, I questioned on what basis he was making that recommendation.

JustinDee

danthefan wrote: »

Is there criticism of the team in there somewhere? There there, no need to get all precious. Cheika has made some perfectly reasonable comments.

Its called the bleedin' obvious.

molloyjh

JustinDee wrote: »

danthefan wrote: »

Is there criticism of the team in there somewhere? There there, no need to get all precious. Cheika has made some perfectly reasonable comments.

Its called the bleedin' obvious.

What, you mean like not kicking to a talented back 3? Or not letting strong big runners build up a head of steam?

danthefan

JustinDee wrote: »

Its called the bleedin' obvious.

You'd never state the obvious. Especially not in the 2nd post in this thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056542127

The photographs were taken during the game? Well I never.

JustinDee

danthefan wrote: »

You'd never state the obvious. Especially not in the 2nd post in this thread:

http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056542127

The photographs were taken during the game? Well I never.

Well you charmer you, what I meant was that it was a composite of numerous digital shots taken throughout the game and not just four shots taken in the northern in-goal area then manipulated into one shot.

And I'm the touchy one? Lol

justsomebloke

Lads please leave it at that