Would you sack Kidney, yay, or nay ?

Diamondmaker

Lapin wrote: »

I hate this trend of looking for the manager/coach's head after one game.
t. :mad:

There is also the world cup to bare in mind and the pour pre RWC warm ups and poor 6N prior to that too ! Its not just this last game....

Our players need the experience and guidance of a proven winner, we need an international manager who has won RWCs as player / coach.

We have that equivilent in the provincial teams but as no players have scaled that height internationally and neither has our manager we dont have any experience of cracking the next level in the player or manager group.

Borders no.2

Like others I think at the end of the 6 nations Kidney should step aside, I don't agree with Ulster on the McLaughlin decision but it shows how ruthless the game is becoming which isn't a positive but neither is sticking with something that isn't working. As a Connacht Supporter I can tell you that much, Bradley like Kidney did a good job to start with but the end of his life cycle with the team came and went and he hung in their grimly for another few years which severely damaged his reputation and made Connacht into a laughing stock. Bradley has done reasonably well at Edinburgh again and could rebuild his reputation. Kidney could do a good job somewhere else again.

Looking at the Irish side against Wales was painful as it was obvious after 10 mins we were making the exact same mistakes as the world cup, we almost managed to fall over the line inspite of ourselves but Wales were much the better team and played with so much more purpose minus pretty much two-thirds of their first team while we used some sort of drift defence that was plainly stupid against Wales. It didn't really matter who Wales had on in that everyone knew their job and the type of game they were trying to play.

Like the world cup, the breakdown was a write off with players not committing resulting in slow ball or turnover ball on occasion.

I agree with others that this isn't a great Irish side and there are some areas like the centre where we just don't have international quality options especially with BOD missing.

International Rugby is a number of levels above Heineken Cup bar maybe the semi final or final.

Looking at our results over the past couple of years. Since France 2010 we haven't really delivered many substantial performances, defeat at home to Scotland in 2010 was unforgivable, a poor summer tour, autumn was little better, 2011 6 nations was extremely weak, good chance at a grand slam imo but we were fortunate to beat Italy and the Scots, handed France victory at the Aviva and a good first half against a poor English side papered over the cracks, warmups for the world cup were poor, win over Australia was great, game plan was limited but got the job done but we were brutally exposed against Wales and the same defensive mistakes and breakdown problems were repeated last Sunday with two of the tries being pretty much exactly the same as the world cup.

Tonights cancellation may give Kidney a reprieve in that going to Paris isn't the time to make drastic changes but Italy offers opportunities, everyone knows he will pick the same team for Italy bar injuries but I'd hope he'd try some new options.

What will happen through with Ireland slipping to 8th in the rankins is we'll become ultra-conservative for Italy and Scotland to get the wins to preserve our 2nd seeding ahead of the end of year cut off point. If we miss the 2nd pot of seeds for the next world cup Kidney will be gone.

Podge_irl

Great. Now we don't go to Paris and lose horribly and thus Kidney is going to put out exactly the same team picked for the France game against Italy. They'll win (probably poorly) and go on to lose horribly to France then instead and our best chance of introducing new players is gone.

jacothelad

Borders no.2 wrote: »

Like others I think at the end of the 6 nations Kidney should step aside, I don't agree with Ulster on the McLaughlin decision but it shows how ruthless the game is becoming which isn't a positive but neither is sticking with something that isn't working.

I can understand why most people seem to be uncomfortable with Ulster's decision to move Brian sideways. He is an absolute gentleman in a sport that is becoming increasingly the fiefdom of undesirables and slippery sophists like Kidney. Putting things in perspective, Brian asked last year if he signed for one more year, could he be guaranteed a permanent job after his one year extension was finished. In an act of generosity virtually unheard of in sport, Ulster agreed to give McLaughlin a permanent job irrespective of how he was deemed to have performed. As an Ulsterman I have reservations about Brian's performance. I'm delighted that he has landed a great job in the academy but the upswing in Ulster's performance actually has a lot to do with the arrival of Afoa and Johann Muller taking over as forwards coach and I can tell you all that Ulster's backs are revelling in how training ha gone since the arrival of Terblanche and his input is said to be astonishing. 5 Try bonuses in 7 games speaks volumes.

tolosenc

Didn't see the match, but after tonight's performance he has to go. To lose is one thing, but to do so without scoring a single point is atrocious.

molloyjh

Borders no.2 wrote: »

I agree with others that this isn't a great Irish side and there are some areas like the centre where we just don't have international quality options especially with BOD missing.

The problem here is that having very talented players has stunted the growth of those behind them due to our naturally conservative nature. How many Irish sides, provincial or international, have ever had real strength in depth? Up until Schmidt came to Leinster I don't recall ever seeing an Irish side that wasn't dependent on their top XV more or less. Squad rotation was never something we did by choice. Until it is we'll always find ourselves dependent on individuals. Which is the wrong way to go about it. We also need to bring youth along more rather than waiting until we're stuck due to injuries or severe drops in form before bringing in players in their mid to late twenties. We then need to show faith in these guys if they perform rather than dropping them the first chance we get...

Sandwlch

tolosenc wrote: »

Didn't see the match, but after tonight's performance he has to go. To lose is one thing, but to do so without scoring a single point is atrocious.

Agree. But the players have to shoulder some of the blame as well. Some of them were completely anonymous and I cant remember a single thing they did.

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

I can understand why most people seem to be uncomfortable with Ulster's decision to move Brian sideways. He is an absolute gentleman in a sport that is becoming increasingly the fiefdom of gobs*ites and slippery gougers like Kidney. Putting things in perspective, Brian asked last year if he signed for one more year, could he be guaranteed a permanent job after his one year extension was finished. In an act of generosity virtually unheard of in sport, Ulster agreed to give McLaughlin a permanent job irrespective of how he was deemed to have performed. As an Ulsterman I have reservations about Brian's performance. I'm delighted that he has landed a great job in the academy but the upswing in Ulster's performance actually has a lot to do with the arrival of Afoa and Johann Muller taking over as forwards coach and I can tell you all that Ulster's backs are revelling in how training ha gone since the arrival of Terblanche and his input is said to be astonishing. 5 Try bonuses in 7 games speaks volumes.

The act of generosity had mclaughlin shellshocked - and not in a nice way at that press conference. Is gary longwell getting the bullet in the Academy or is he being moved sideways as well? whats the spin on that one going to be like hed prefer to coach tag rugby.
mclaughlin doesn't have a forwards, backs/defence/scrum coach like every other club has? if thats the case his achievements with Ulster are even more extraordinary.

jacothelad

jm08 wrote: »

The act of generosity had mclaughlin shellshocked - and not in a nice way at that press conference. Is gary longwell getting the bullet in the Academy or is he being moved sideways as well? whats the spin on that one going to be like hed prefer to coach tag rugby.
mclaughlin doesn't have a forwards, backs/defence/scrum coach like every other club has? if thats the case his achievements with Ulster are even more extraordinary.

Neil Doak is the backs coach.
Jonny Bell is the defence coach.
Johann Muller is the forwards coach along with McLaughlin.

McLaughlin knew exactly what was going to happen a year ago. He was clearly informed what the situation would be before he signed his one year extension. He had the option to return to his position in RBAI or take on the head coach job for a year followed by a move sideways.

I'll leave it to him.

"
"Further to yesterday's press conference and the subsequent media reports I wish to clarify my situation and apologise for any misunderstanding that may have arisen.

Last year I sought and was successful in securing a permanent contract with Ulster Rugby. This allowed me the job security to leave my teaching post and follow a professional coaching career. At the same time, I extended my role as Head Coach for the 2011-12 season.

While I will be leaving the post of Head Coach in June this year I will not be leaving the staff and in fact will take on a senior coaching role within the Ulster Academy. This is an important role which I take very seriously and one to which I will bring extensive experience. It also indicates the investment we are making in our future players.

I look forward to finishing this season strongly with the senior team and am committed to my new role developing the Ulster players of the future."

How many coaches in professional rugby have permanent jobs with all the rights etc that accrue from that? No one else I'd say. McLaughlins tenure has been enhanced by having a team containing 3 or 4 World Cup winners plus other fine players such as Ferris, Henry, Tuohy, Trimble, Cave, Mincer, Marshall, Gilroy, D'Arcy, Court, Wannenberg. The big surprise isn't that they are doing relatively well but that they are not doing better.

jimbomalley

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The rumour is this is exactly what Reddan did against England. I find that hard to believe though.

first time ive heard this, makes sense though the way we played that day....also makes sense now that murray o leary is in place while paul marshall doesnt get a sniff at the training camp despite the benefits he would gain (not advocating he start, yet, redden should but the experience could only benefit him)

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

Neil Doak is the backs coach.
Jonny Bell is the defence coach.
Johann Muller is the forwards coach along with McLaughlin.

McLaughlin knew exactly what was going to happen a year ago. He was clearly informed what the situation would be before he signed his one year extension. He had the option to return to his position in RBAI or take on the head coach job for a year followed by a move sideways.

I'll leave it to him.

"
"Further to yesterday's press conference and the subsequent media reports I wish to clarify my situation and apologise for any misunderstanding that may have arisen.

Last year I sought and was successful in securing a permanent contract with Ulster Rugby. This allowed me the job security to leave my teaching post and follow a professional coaching career. At the same time, I extended my role as Head Coach for the 2011-12 season.

While I will be leaving the post of Head Coach in June this year I will not be leaving the staff and in fact will take on a senior coaching role within the Ulster Academy. This is an important role which I take very seriously and one to which I will bring extensive experience. It also indicates the investment we are making in our future players.

I look forward to finishing this season strongly with the senior team and am committed to my new role developing the Ulster players of the future."

How many coaches in professional rugby have permanent jobs with all the rights etc that accrue from that? No one else I'd say. McLaughlins tenure has been enhanced by having a team containing 3 or 4 World Cup winners plus other fine players such as Ferris, Henry, Tuohy, Trimble, Cave, Mincer, Marshall, Gilroy, D'Arcy, Court, Wannenberg. The big surprise isn't that they are doing relatively well but that they are not doing better.

More likely that mclauglin had to go back to his teaching job to get his pension/security , which would be an unusual situation for most coaches to be as career rugby coaches , if he left when he had to, Ulster would have been in a bit of a mess, hence the promise of some sort of job with Ulster. all of those Ulster players you mention have been very injury prone. Ferris and cave missed most of last season through injury and this season ulster have been performing well - just cant figue out why ulster are doing what they are doing - a bird in the hand is better than a bird in the bush.

seems like the coaching staff are not up to the job either if they need the services of the playing staff. no harm though in players helping out with the coaching - lots of players do that like ollie le roux, bj botha and pucharello used to for munster.

jacothelad

jm08 wrote: »

More likely that mclauglin had to go back to his teaching job to get his pension/security ,

No. His pension is totally secure. The Teacher's Pension Scheme is a final salary scheme based on the number of years service. You get a % of your best years salary for each year worked. It doesn't matter if you leave teaching. You have paid the contributions and earned the pension rights which cannot be taken away. Also, these years can be supplemented by paying Additional Voluntary Contributions (AVCs). Brian I'm sure has done so and he also will be earning several times what his teacher's salary would be.



which would be an unusual situation for most coaches to be as career rugby coaches , if he left when he had to, Ulster would have been in a bit of a mess, hence the promise of some sort of job with Ulster. all of those Ulster players you mention have been very injury prone. Ferris and cave missed most of last season through injury and this season ulster have been performing well - just cant figue out why ulster are doing what they are doing - a bird in the hand is better than a bird in the bush.

Are you saying that Muller, Best, Humphreys, Kyriacou, Brady, Botha, Danielli, Pienaar, Afoa, Ferris, Henry, Tuohy, Trimble, Cave, Mincer, Marshall, Gilroy, D'Arcy, Court, Wannenberg are all injury prone? Some have had injuries but to assert that as a group they are usually unavailable due to being injury prone is nonsense.

Last Year Cave played 22 games so he missed 7, mostly by rotation.Ferris only played in 10.

seems like the coaching staff are not up to the job either if they need the services of the playing staff. no harm though in players helping out with the coaching - lots of players do that like ollie le roux, bj botha and pucharello used to for munster.

They aren't. They are learning on the job which isn't ideal.
None of the coaching staff with the exception of McLaughlin had appropriate coaching qualifications prior to lucking out with their jobs. None of them, including Brian had experience of running a professional rugby team. Brian did have a part time input to skills under Eddie.

I'm one of very many Ulster acolytes who are supportive of the move regarding McLaughlin. I'm pretty bemused however by the way it was deliberately leaked to the press and even more disgusted by the way it has been portrayed. It's a business, not a charity for nice school teachers.

Is it a risk? Of Course. No more than it was when McLaughlin was appointed over far more experienced and suitable candidates. Strangely enough, I didn't hear a howl of fake outrage when that happened.

jm08

More than likely he had to make a decision on whether he was going to give up his teaching job as he couldn't take any more leave of absence and at his age it would not be easy leaving ni with settled family situation . as an academy coach, will he really be earning several time that what he would earn with teaching ?


i'm saying that some of ulster's big players were not available for some big matches last season. ferris would have been a huge loss for the saints qf and it was the younger players first season as well - they are now a bit more seasoned . best, ferris, trimble, cave (12 games last season , not 22 , one heinekn cup game) , wallace and touhy were all out for important games last season . (im basing that on players like tuohy missing out on ireland chances, mcfadden getting a start in the 6ns last year and botha having the reputation for being fairly crocked when leaving ulster for munster.

so humphreys decided to spend the money on playing staff - he hired them without the qualifications in the first place. not sure what qualifications jonno gibbs or greg feek had when they came to leinster or williams and foley with munster.

don't even know who the candidates were to display any outrage, they were not humiliated in public.

i don't want to be dragged any further into this debate, i feel for brian mclaughlin and i think ulster have handled this really badly.

.ak

This thread is getting awfully colorful... Won't somebody please think of the children?!

jm08

.ak wrote: »

This thread is getting awfully colorful... Won't somebody please think of the children?!

kids love colourful things

jacothelad

jm08 wrote: »

kids love colourful things

It's almost springtime. Let's brighten up the board.

heybaby

Ireland under Eddie O Sullivan:

Played 80 , 51 wins, 29 defeats win ratio 63%

Ireland under Declan Kidney :

Played 31, 17 wins, 1 draw, 13 defeats, win ratio 54%

jacothelad

heybaby wrote: »

Ireland under Eddie O Sullivan:

Played 80 , 51 wins, 29 defeats win ratio 63%

Ireland under Declan Kidney :

Played 31, 17 wins, 1 draw, 13 defeats, win ratio 54%

It would be interesting for someone to produce comparative graphs showing the win/loss trend year on year. Eddies would be pretty sready.
This year has been a bit of a shambles. Even Argentina are ahead of us in the World rankings and some genius decided that in 2012, a year in which our RWC seeding will be determined, that we should play 3 tests against the All Blacks. given that we all hope we have an all Irish ERC final and an All Irish Rabo final, I wonder what team the coach - whoever it is - will be able to field. Does no one sit down at the IRFU with the back of an envelope and write this stuff down?

irishbucsfan

I think the general consensus of this thread is Kidney for Ulster

CatFromHue

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think the general consensus of this thread is Kidney for Ulster

Well he's had Ireland, Munster twice, Leinster, and Connacht have Elwood signed up for next year so it makes sense for him to move for the Grand Slam of Irishing coaching jobs.

jacothelad

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think the general consensus of this thread is Kidney for Ulster

I'm not allowed to reply in the appropriate language. Anyway, Kidney's soujourns at NG Dragons (3 months) and Leinster (7 months) show that he wouldn't take long to bail out. It just proves that he can't live without the aprons strings of Munster. He'd never make do up here. We do play in red sometimes so that would help. I'm sure he is a real nice guy but he needs to go back to Munster.

Sandwlch

heybaby wrote: »

Ireland under Eddie O Sullivan:

Played 80 , 51 wins, 29 defeats win ratio 63%

Ireland under Declan Kidney :

Played 31, 17 wins, 1 draw, 13 defeats, win ratio 54%

Interesting. Any stats for only the matches against serious teams (discarding USA, Japan, etc) ?

irishbucsfan

jacothelad wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think the general consensus of this thread is Kidney for Ulster

I'm not allowed to reply in the appropriate language. Anyway, Kidney's soujourns at NG Dragons (3 months) and Leinster (7 months) show that he wouldn't take long to bail out. It just proves that he can't live without the aprons strings of Munster. He'd never make do up here. We do play in red sometimes so that would help. I'm sure he is a real nice guy but he needs to go back to Munster.

I really don't think even Munster would want him back at this stage.

Until he updates his playing style to be somewhat reminiscent of something remotely succesful under the current rules I can't see him being succesful at any level.

ormond lad

jacothelad wrote: »

I'm not allowed to reply in the appropriate language. Anyway, Kidney's soujourns at NG Dragons (3 months) and Leinster (7 months) show that he wouldn't take long to bail out. It just proves that he can't live without the aprons strings of Munster. He'd never make do up here. We do play in red sometimes so that would help. I'm sure he is a real nice guy but he needs to go back to Munster.

No thanks, dont want to see him anywhere near a coaching role with munster tbh

Hagz

Sandwlch wrote: »

Interesting. Any stats for only the matches against serious teams (discarding USA, Japan, etc) ?

Ireland under O'Sullivan
NZ: 0/8
AUS: 2/7
South Africa: 2/4
France: 1/10
England: 4/7
Wales: 7/9
Scotland: 9/10

Ireland under Kidney
NZ: 0/4
AUS: out of 4 games, 1 win and a draw
South Africa: 1/2
France: 1/5
England: 3/4
Wales: 2/5
Scotland: 2/4

tolosenc

jacothelad wrote: »

It would be interesting for someone to produce comparative graphs showing the win/loss trend year on year. Eddies would be pretty sready.
This year has been a bit of a shambles. Even Argentina are ahead of us in the World rankings and some genius decided that in 2012, a year in which our RWC seeding will be determined, that we should play 3 tests against the All Blacks. given that we all hope we have an all Irish ERC final and an All Irish Rabo final, I wonder what team the coach - whoever it is - will be able to field. Does no one sit down at the IRFU with the back of an envelope and write this stuff down?

Some of the reasoning behind the "let's not take risks" attitude was in relation to us trying to get a top spot for thext world cup. There is substantially more danger of Tonga catching us than us catching Aus. If they win the Pacific Cup and get a shock win over, say Aus (*cough* Samoa), we'd need to hope Argentina lose all their Rugby Championship matches, possibly heavily, in order to retain a second spot.

Sandwlch

Hagz wrote: »

Ireland under O'Sullivan
NZ: 0/8
AUS: 2/7
South Africa: 2/4
France: 1/10
England: 4/7
Wales: 7/9
Scotland: 9/10

Ireland under Kidney
NZ: 0/4
AUS: out of 4 games, 2 wins and a draw
South Africa: 1/2
France: 1/5
England: 3/4
Wales: 2/5
Scotland: 2/4

O'Sullivan win 45%
Kidney win 39%

jacothelad

V. 6N sides
EOS 58%
Deccie,45%

danthefan

Having a mental block here, when was our other win against Aus under Kidney? I can remember the draw and the loss over there and obviously the RWC win but that's it...

Hagz

danthefan wrote: »

Having a mental block here, when was our other win against Aus under Kidney? I can remember the draw and the loss over there and obviously the RWC win but that's it...

Was a mistake, fixed now.