Irish Olympic Participants

SARZY

Have any Irish shooters qualified, rifle, pistol or shotgun.

Sparks

Not sure about shotgun (I think Derek Burnett has, but I'm not sure).

In Rifle and Pistol, not yet. There are five quota places up for grabs in the European Championships next week (in each of Mens Air Rifle, Womens Air Rifle, Mens Air Pistol and Womens Air Pistol), and we have a team (Ray Kane, Paul O'Boyle, Aisling Miller and Peter Friend) competing for them; Ray's got a serious shot at taking a quota place, Paul's got a solid chance as well, and Peter and Aisling aren't out of the running by any means. If any of them win a quota place, they'll be making history - we've sent shooters to the Games on wildcard places in Rifle before, but we've never won a quota place in Pistol in open competition and as far as I know it's been over a century since we did so in Rifle (and technically the rules were different back then and it wasn't even the Irish team so much as an Irishman on the UK team). It'd be a marvellous achievement for a true amateur, without state funding or support and overcoming state obstacles to win that place, and I think we have a really, really, really good chance at it next week.

SARZY

The very best of luck to them.

I think the shotgun is given funding but thats based,I think, on very good results in serious competitions in the recent past.

It would be fantastic if we had some shooters in London, rifle, pistol or shotgun.

Sparks

The shotgun lads get some funding allright SARZY; but it doesn't even come close to covering half their costs (quite a bit less in fact).

To give you some hard numbers, going to Intershoot (which is a small-to-medium sized event and which is the closest international available other than the upcoming London World Cup) cost each of us approximately €800 between flights, accomodation, entry fees, food, and so on. Going to a World Cup winds up costing a bit more - anything up to €1500 for a European event, and quite a bit more for any event in Asia, Australia or America (so much so that we haven't gone there much historically). We go to a few of these each year if we're serious about competing; the shotgun lads go to *all* of them.

Then add in training costs, equipment costs, and ammunition costs (which are relatively small for airgun, moderate for smallbore, and a monster for shotgun or fullbore). Add in the costs of trips abroad for things other than matches - training camps, going to manufacturers for servicing or batch testing or getting new kit. For an air rifle shooter, your annual costs would come to somewhere in the region of €12k (assuming 2/3 intershoot-sized matches, 2/3 world cups, the europeans, a training camp abroad, kit replacements and maintenance costs and associated travel). And that's almost definitely on the low side (it's assuming you get coaching for free from volunteers, which works right now but isn't fair and isn't the best way to do things - you could add in a few grand there to bring your coach along to world cups and the like to improve your performance without even thinking about it, if you had the money to spare). And that's not mentioning domestic costs - I was only training three nights a week, but that's 300km of driving a week, which worked out at about €50 a week in travel alone; there are a few other little costs, all of which add up until you're spending thousands at home in training costs.

And while *after* that you might get some financial aid if the Sports Council ever sorted its act out and started supporting shooters properly, it won't cover all of that - the junior's grant amounts to about €3k per junior, as does the initial senior's grant; the next level up gets €8k if I remember right and then €12 at the world class 1 level; world class 2 was €20-something thousand and the very top, world class 3 was €30k. Welcome as it would be (and has been in the past), the Council's support just doesn't cover everything. And because it won't even cover expenses, we can't have full-time athletes. I know that even if I was shooting 600/600 today, I couldn't take a leave of absence from my job to chase after London - I have morgage payments to make and a family to feed, I can't afford to try to live off €30k while spending anything up to €20k a year going round the world to competitions. Derek and the shotgun lads manage it by working two jobs, working in places that are very forgiving and flexible on time (as are the rifle shooters) - but that's the only way we can do it and even with that, we're limited in what we can do. Which is appaling really - all that's in our way is literally just money. In the private sector, this is the kind of problem companies long for - one they can solve just by throwing money at it, instead of having to invest in R&D. It's heartbreaking in a way.

SARZY

An impossible situation without access to large personal resources.

Now dont get me wrong on this, but should not the whole effort of all participants in the various shooting sports be geared towards ensuring that our best get the opportunity to represent us.

Could every entry fee to a domestic competition carry a levy to be accumulated and spent in funding our best qualifiers.

Could that money be administered independently.

Why, in shotgun for instance, should the sport not recognise that Olympic is the pinnacle and all disciplines support that.
Participation in those disciplines is open to everybody.

Why is sponsorship from the trade so scarce in Ireland.

It seems to me, that relying on this State in the short and medium term, that it will not get any better.

Is this one we have to try and solve ourselves.

Sparks

SARZY wrote: »

An impossible situation without access to large personal resources.
Now dont get me wrong on this, but should not the whole effort of all participants in the various shooting sports be geared towards ensuring that our best get the opportunity to represent us.

Well, yes, but we're supposed to do that via our taxes and the Irish Sports Council really. That's the whole point of their existence. If we have to pay to fund the ISC *and* pay to fund our sport... well, that's like buying a dog and doing the barking yourself, isn't it?

Could every entry fee to a domestic competition carry a levy to be accumulated and spent in funding our best qualifiers.

Has been done, even though it's like barking yourself WTSC used to hold events (BBQs and such) to raise money to send club teams away to matches. When people had disposable income, it was reasonably successful (but I don't think we ever got to the stage of covering 50% of the costs). These days.... I don't think it would be that successful.

Why, in shotgun for instance, should the sport not recognise that Olympic is the pinnacle and all disciplines support that.

Because not everyone feels that way. Olympic trap can be argued to be the pinnacle, but I don't think DTL shooters would automatically agree with the assessment, and don't even mention that thought in rifle or pistol circles or you'll be bleeding from the ears in minutes from the shouting you'll trigger

Why is sponsorship from the trade so scarce in Ireland.

I suspect it's a mix of (a) the trade not being as flush here as it is in larger markets; (b) a lack of tradition of doing so; and (c) everyone assuming it's someone else's problem.
I would like to point out though, that some in the trade do sponsor shooters - Intershoot have prizes and awards they've given out to shooters and clubs, and I don't want to know how much money some of the ISSF dealers like Tiernans have given over the years - I suspect it's a horribly unwisely high figure!
(And that's without counting things like shooters being given very favorable prices on things by dealers trying to promote the sport).

It seems to me, that relying on this State in the short and medium term, that it will not get any better.
Is this one we have to try and solve ourselves.

I think in the short term, we can't rely even on ourselves and shooters just have to get on with it as best we can, and if people row in behind us, they're more than appreciated for doing so; and if the ISC ever sort out their act, the same will be true then - we're aiming to take home medals, anyone who helps with that is welcome.

SARZY

That explains a lot.

The trials of amateur sport.

Used to read in uk magazines of shooters (shotgun) gaining sponsorship from various commercial interests and often wondered about the advantage to the sponsor. Maybe there was a tax advantage. Commercial decisions usually involve a financial benefit.

While I understand all the obstacles you outline, not least from the shooters themselves, it may not be impossible to change the status quo.

Anyway my sincere best wishes to the people who travel soon and best of luck to them.

Sparks

SARZY wrote: »

Used to read in uk magazines of shooters (shotgun) gaining sponsorship from various commercial interests and often wondered about the advantage to the sponsor. Maybe there was a tax advantage. Commercial decisions usually involve a financial benefit.

Advertising, usually. If the best shooter in the country uses brand X ammo, you often find other shooters use brand X because he/she does, and that's the immediate commercial benefit. There's also the more long-term benefit that a healthy sport generates more revenue, but that's not often factored in

demonloop

There's a bit of a chicken and egg situation when it comes to funding.

We're never going to get sponsorship unless we are world-class, or pick up medals at a big event. We can't get to world-class level without serious sponsorship/funding.

Where we are years behind GB, Scotland especially, is in our infrastructure.

This applies north and south IMO

GB have the facilities, experience, coaches, management and most importantly the funding to be able to attract people to the sport, identify talent quickly and progress it very quickly. I could give you a list of names under the age of 25 who are examples of this.

I honestly think we missed a trick in the north following the last CWG; I know this doesn't apply to the unwashed over the border, but we had two shooters from NI in the final; and Matt picked up the bronze. No mean feat.

If ever we had an opportunity to go knocking on doors, that was it.

No-one bothered.

Look at the golfers; they've done well on the international stage, and they are milking it for all its worth - "Northern Ireland - the home of golf" might be cringey but would the Open have considered going to Portrush five years ago?

To the credit of the NTSA, they don't spend all year sitting on their hands and they're working with no money for no reward and often no thanks either.

But without the funding, on a big scale, we'll have to depend on the shooters to self-fund. To make a serious run at an Olympic medal takes six figures, IIRC what Don Mac said on the stirton forum once, re: Neil

Sparks

The real problem here is that the Sports Council should be providing appropriate levels of support in a structured way to athletes who have shown talent and commitment and who have potential to win, not just in ISSF events but in any event that represents Ireland on the International stage; but their carding grant criteria and structure for rifle/pistol shooting is very badly conceived and is currently not implement-able (because they will only talk to the FISA, who have no Olympic athletes, but the criteria states that only Olympic events will be considered!):

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, basicly, through the High Performance Unit's Carding Scheme, but the criteria are insane for all but Juniors on the rifle/pistol side of things. For the lowest level adult grant (Developmental), you'd have to be shooting a score of around 590 in mens air rifle, 391 in women's air rifle, 590 in men's prone rifle, 1159 in mens 3P rifle, 553 in women's 3P rifle or 570 in men's air pistol.
By the time you're hitting those scores in those disciplines at world cup/european championships/world chamionships levels, you'll already have won medals all over the place and be at the point where we should have been supporting you through the scheme for about four or five years. The thing is, the criteria just don't reflect the level of competition out on the international circuit, and haven't for at least a decade, and the ISC is playing silly buggers about rewriting them.

For reference, Ray's 590 was a new Irish Record in Mens Air Rifle and it put him in sixth place in a mid-sized continental match. That wouldn't even get him a Developmental grant - the lowest run on the ladder for an adult in the system. Yet he's going to the European Championships in a few days with the best chance we've had at winning a Rifle quota place in over a century, and has been representing his country abroad for years. If that doesn't show that the system is messed up and needs fixing, nothing will.

And that post was two years ago, but we'd talked about this before then, four years ago:

Sparks wrote: »

Been saying that for a while chem. It's more infuriating because the carding system is run the same way even though it's explictly stated to be a support mechanism
I mean, if you look at the carding grant criteria at the moment, you have to win a medal in the Olympics or World Championships to get the top level of funding. (Happily, if you do win that medal, you also get the bonus payment automatically :rolleyes:)

Less sarcasticly, reviewing those criteria is on the agenda because right now not only are they patently ridiculous, but they also don't take into account the facts of our sport - namely that it's not just all olympic shooting (right now only olympic shooting is cardable) and also that we start later than most sports (junior carding grants are sensible enough in terms of criteria, but you can't get them after you turn 21).

And five years ago:

Sparks wrote: »

The relevant criteria and information on the grant are here les.
Right now, the grants are for olympic events only: we've talked about this before (here, here and here). Like I said then, I don't agree with the restriction, and it wasn't an inevitable restriction either.

edit: Had the wrong link above. Fixed that now. The criteria for the '07 grant for shooting are as follows:

SPORT: SHOOTING (Olympic classes only)

Contracted
Top 3 in the World Championships
Top 3 in Olympic/ Paralympic Games

World Class
Top 8 in the World Championships
Top 8 in Olympic Games
European Champion (Olympic/ Paralympic events)
Top 8 in two World Cup events in one year

International
8-20 in the World Championships
Qualification for Olympic/ Paralympic Games
Top 4-16 in the European Championships
Two top 8 finishes in World Cup events in two years

Developmental
Achieve an Olympic qualifying score and be in the top 30 twice in World Cup series or European Championships or World Championships
Be in top 30 twice in Paralympic sanctioned event

Junior
Achieve an Olympic qualifying score and under 21 years of age (Junior category in I.S.S.F.)

Performance Incentive Payments
Contracted – Medal in World Championships or Olympic Games
World Class – Medal in World Cup & finalist at World Championships
International – Medal in World Cup event
Developmental – Qualification for the Olympic Games

SPORT: CLAY PIGEON SHOOTING

Contracted
Top 3 in the World Championships
Top 3 in the Olympic Games
Gold medal European Championships

World Class
Top 12 in the World Championships
Top 12 in the Olympic Games
Top 12 in two World Cup events in one year
Top 6 European Championships

International
Top 25 in the World Championships
Qualification for the Olympic Games
Top 12 in the European Championships
Top 25 in two World Cup events in two years

Developmental
Top 35 in two World Cup events in two years and under 26
Top 35 in the World Championships and under 26
Top 20 in the European Championships
Medalist in the European Junior Championships and no longer eligible for that event

Junior (under 21)
Top 20 in the European Junior Championships
Top 30 World Junior Championships

Performance Incentive Payments
Contracted – Medal in the World Championships or Olympic Games
World Class – Medal in a World cup event
International – Finalist in a world cup event
Developmental – Medal European Junior Championships

And further back than that too, but I'm depressed enough as it is. The problem's existed for at least a decade now.

Bananaman

I saw the article on thescore.ie so now get your point.

I still think you'll be old and gray before the state coughs up anything .... But, by all means, go for it.

B'Man

kemen

duno if its been answered but Ireland didnt win a quota place in shotgun but i think can still can pick up a wildcard place which probably would go to derek!

Sparks

It'd be well-deserved, he's picked up so many World Cup medals at this point that he's more than proven he's capable of medalling...

kemen

from what i've heard its highly likely he will get it!

Dan man

Ireland has had 16 shooters compete at the Olympic Games over the years, 15 of which were men, with Rhona Barry the sole woman to represent the country (10m Air Rifle at Atlanta 1996).

Here is a table outlining which shooting events we have competed in and the competitors who have represented us:
NOTE: *denotes that the event was a mixed event for a period. 1992 was the last Olympics that the trap and skeet was a mixed event open to both men and women. From 1972-1980, the 25m rapid-fire pistol was a mixed competition open to both men and women.

Event|No. of Competitors|Details|
Trap*|8|Dermot Kelly (1968, 1972); Gerry Brady (1972); Richard Flynn (1976); Thomas Hewitt (1980); Roy Magowan (1984); Thomas Allen (1996); David Malone (2000); Derek Burnett (2000, 2004, 2008)|
Skeet*|5|Arthur McMahon (1968, 1972); Gerry Brady (1968); William Campbell (1972); Nick Cooney (1980); Albert Thompson (1980, 1984)|
Men's 50m Rifle Prone|2|Gary Duff (1996); Alan Lewis (2000)|
Men's Double Trap|1|Thomas Allen (1996)|
25m Rapid-Fire Pistol*|1|Ken Stanford (1980)|
50m Pistol (then known as free pistol)*|1|Ken Stanford (1980)|
Women's 10m Air Rifle|1|Rhona Barry (1996)|


Derek Burnett tied for 7th place in Athens in 2004 in the men's trap (just one place from a place in the final) remains Ireland's best Olympic result to date.
Thomas Hewitt's tie for 11th place in Moscow 1980 in the then mixed trap was another notable result.

bayliner

kemen wrote: »

from what i've heard its highly likely he will get it!

hopefully you're right, it would be a shame if we didnt have someone there