chimmney breast bedroom

karl75

alright guys looking at getting the chimmney breast removed from our bedroom its in our way so it has to be moved is it a big job and also how much should i be looking at to pay for this to be done thanks

demanufactured

Do you use the fire downstairs?

karl75

no never used it it was a gas fire but is disconnected

paddy147

Structural/load bearing issues here.

BryanF

Invite an engineer and builder round, best to have them both there at the same time..

paddylonglegs

paddy147 wrote: »

Structural/load bearing issues here.

can't offer advice but have also read about the chimney breast being a load bearing wall. would be getting a pro in if it were me

sonofsteptoe

Given that you are only removing from 1st floor up load bearing should not be a huge issue. However a bigger concern would be as to whether or not the chimney breast is on a party wall. You don't want to be taking a block away to find you are looking in at your next door neighbour in bed.:D
Get an Engineers advice first off, You need a site Visit.

paddy147

sonofsteptoe wrote: »

Given that you are only removing from 1st floor up load bearing should not be a huge issue. However a bigger concern would be as to whether or not the chimney breast is on a party wall. You don't want to be taking a block away to find you are looking in at your next door neighbour in bed.:D
Get an Engineers advice first off, You need a site Visit.

The 1st part of your post,is the most lapse/stupid thing Ive read here on this forum in a while.:eek:


Whats above the 1st floor bedroom then??.......An attic and roof and the rest of the chimney breast/party wall/chimney pot.


Load bearing is load bearing,and thats that.

A structural engineer is needed for any matters like this,to assess the situation.

sonofsteptoe

Good Man Paddy, Firstly" removing from 1st floor up" means that exactly, all the way up to and including the chimney pot( wouldn't want it blowing in the breeze up there). Secondly in any proper construction there should never be timber bearing directly onto a chimney breast ( min 50mm all round clearance). Thirdly, first floor party wall would I hope be bearing directly onto ground floor party wall, and I adressed my concern with that in my original post. Finally read the last line of my post again, "Get an Engineers Advice, You need a Site visit" Good Man Paddy

paddy147

sonofsteptoe wrote: »

Good Man Paddy, Firstly" removing from 1st floor up" means that exactly, all the way up to and including the chimney pot( wouldn't want it blowing in the breeze up there). Secondly in any proper construction there should never be timber bearing directly onto a chimney breast ( min 50mm all round clearance). Thirdly, first floor party wall would I hope be bearing directly onto ground floor party wall, and I adressed my concern with that in my original post. Finally read the last line of my post again, "Get an Engineers Advice, You need a Site visit" Good Man Paddy

Well if you actually posted definitive and fully informative posts the 1st time round and not just post such a lapse post,then maybe people would actually understand what you are posting.

The 1st part of your original post is quite lapse and it gives other people the idea that this isnt a big matter or that serious.

Structural and load bearing and just that,and regardless of how big or small a job.

mickdw

Id look at doing any other remodelling other than taking the chimney down.

paddy147

mickdw wrote: »

Id look at doing any other remodelling other than taking the chimney down.

Agreed.:)

Makes non use of a fire of any sort,even in the future.

De-values a house alot and limits the people/market base who might buy or rent the house,if that ever happens in the future too.

Spread

This is a simple but dirty job. Get a builder in unless you are confident in your own ability. However, this is one way to do it. Firstly, go into your attic space and pull up the insulation around the workplace and save. Put down crawl boards and some decking around the chimney. Clean the bricks 3'X1' up the gable wall at each side of the chimney. Rake out any loose mortar from the joints, brush dust away and wet down. Mix a bucket of 3:1 sand:cement, rewet the area and apply a scratch coat - pressing hard into the joints. The following day mix another bucket and plaster and scratch this on as well and repeat on the third day (final thickness about 1"). Using a feather edge plumb both sides and close in with a float. This should be left for a week. In the meantime buy 4X4" concrete pre stressed lintels 6" wider than the length of the chimney and get a welder to make 2X30"X20" brackets for you including a strengthning diagnol. On the 30" sides include 3X1/2" holes. Mark holes on one side and transfer levels to the other side. Fix the brackets (as low as possible) with 8" rawlbolts making sure that they are level. Remove a line of bricks on the face of the chimney and insert one lintel. Jam slate or iron straps in on top of lintel until firm. Remove enough of bricks to insert the rest of the lintels. Dampen bricks and fill any voids with semi-dry 3:1 packing. Fit a vented cap on the chimney pot. You can now begin to remove the chimney. Not rocket science but certainly not for the faint hearted.

sonofsteptoe

OP please stop immediately, I hope you haven't taken out the wrecking ball on foot of the first line of a three line response from me. Serioiusly, if you would post more detail of the house type, heights, widths Direction of rafters etc I' m sure you will get a rough idea of the work to be undertaken from the learned poters like Paddy 147. It could vary from very difficult to quite a simple but messy task and the price would reflect that.

Paddy147 your original post on this was hardly definitive and fully informative "structural/load bearing issues here"

OP there are also any amount of prefabricated flues which would allow you to keep the fireplace downstairs viable but also allow you to remove
the bulky blockwork one that is causing your problem, And this extra space in the bedroom would be a great selling point for you in the future.

mickdw

Spread wrote: »

This is a simple but dirty job. Get a builder in unless you are confident in your own ability. However, this is one way to do it. Firstly, go into your attic space and pull up the insulation around the workplace and save. Put down crawl boards and some decking around the chimney. Clean the bricks 3'X1' up the gable wall at each side of the chimney. Rake out any loose mortar from the joints, brush dust away and wet down. Mix a bucket of 3:1 sand:cement, rewet the area and apply a scratch coat - pressing hard into the joints. The following day mix another bucket and plaster and scratch this on as well and repeat on the third day (final thickness about 1"). Using a feather edge plumb both sides and close in with a float. This should be left for a week. In the meantime buy 4X4" concrete pre stressed lintels 6" wider than the length of the chimney and get a welder to make 2X30"X20" brackets for you including a strengthning diagnol. On the 30" sides include 3X1/2" holes. Mark holes on one side and transfer levels to the other side. Fix the brackets (as low as possible) with 8" rawlbolts making sure that they are level. Remove a line of bricks on the face of the chimney and insert one lintel. Jam slate or iron straps in on top of lintel until firm. Remove enough of bricks to insert the rest of the lintels. Dampen bricks and fill any voids with semi-dry 3:1 packing. Fit a vented cap on the chimney pot. You can now begin to remove the chimney. Not rocket science but certainly not for the faint hearted.

I don't understand what you are advising here but it appears to be dangerous advice. You have no idea of the structure around the chimney being removed yet you appear to be blindly advising that the weight of the chimney overhead can be passed onto the surrounding structure.

paddy147

I love it how certain people "think" they are "qualified" to come onto the internet and give precise information as to what to do,considering that these people have never ever seen the house in question and have not completed a structural assessment on the house either.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

paddy147

karl75 wrote: »

alright guys looking at getting the chimmney breast removed from our bedroom its in our way so it has to be moved is it a big job and also how much should i be looking at to pay for this to be done thanks

Ask these questions to the structural engineer,when he or she is in your house assessing the house and its structural layout/load bearing issues.

sonofsteptoe

I agree with Paddy 147:rolleyes:

Spread

mickdw wrote: »

I don't understand what you are advising here but it appears to be dangerous advice. You have no idea of the structure around the chimney being removed yet you appear to be blindly advising that the weight of the chimney overhead can be passed onto the surrounding structure.

What exactly don't you understand? And if you don't understand it how come you can quantify that it's angerous advice? Is not the weight of the chimney already dependent on the existing structure by the tie-ins? Why make a mountain out of sa molehill? It is a very basic project.

paddy147 wrote: »

I love it how certain people "think" they are "qualified" to come onto the internet and give precise information as to what to do,considering that these people have never ever seen the house in question and have not completed a structural assessment on the house either.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Over 40 years as a time-served tradesman and having removed about 20 chimneys like this. Where are you getting your info from? Reading, hearsay or empirical. I bet it's not the latter.

paddy147 wrote: »

Ask these questions to the structural engineer,when he or she is in your house assessing the house and its structural layout/load bearing issues.

You could ask a structural engineer to weigh half a dozen tiles that a roofer is repairing your roof with. Or to weigh your new windows etc in case they bring down the walls. You could then bring in a microbiologist to check for hidden spores in the wood/tiles. And of course you could then go and get a second opinion from someone in a lab who does not see the house, does not know the county, state or continent.

Do not complicate matters. A simple job is just that. Providing that you don't have a phobic personality.

Stove Fan

As advised consult a structural engineer, builder and if it's a shared chimney with your neighbour it will need their permission and building control from the council.
If the neighbours is a shared chimney stack the neighbours may need to be rebuilt for stability.

This is something your engineer will advice.

Stove Fan:)

paddy147

Spread wrote: »

What exactly don't you understand? And if you don't understand it how come you can quantify that it's angerous advice? Is not the weight of the chimney already dependent on the existing structure by the tie-ins? Why make a mountain out of sa molehill? It is a very basic project.


Over 40 years as a time-served tradesman and having removed about 20 chimneys like this. Where are you getting your info from? Reading, hearsay or empirical. I bet it's not the latter.


You could ask a structural engineer to weigh half a dozen tiles that a roofer is repairing your roof with. Or to weigh your new windows etc in case they bring down the walls. You could then bring in a microbiologist to check for hidden spores in the wood/tiles. And of course you could then go and get a second opinion from someone in a lab who does not see the house, does not know the county, state or continent.

Do not complicate matters. A simple job is just that. Providing that you don't have a phobic personality.

So according to you,Im complicating matters??

Eh,No Im not.

Like so many others here,I have said get a structural engineer to view it.





Now let me ask you some questions here........................


1-Have you seen the house in question???

2-Have you assessed it and its strucural layout??

3-Are you a structural engineer????



The answer to these questions is NO.

I couldnt care less whether you have 40,50 or 60 years experience as a trades man.

You have not seen the property,and you know nothing about it.

End of.

Spread

paddy147, you will find out soon enough if it is a shared chimney as you begin to remove the bricks. If it is, you would then inform the client, explain what has to be done and if the client wants to go ahead, then speak to the neighbour and the council. Why bring extra costs in and why worry about things that might never be.
The OP asked for opinions ....... I gave mine. Having a lot of experience in the field I pass that onto others. He does not want to read point scoring exercises. You seem to get hot under the collar easily. Suffering from small man syndrome, are we?

mickdw

I dont understand exactly what you are advising them to do. I dont know how you can give exact advice re lengths of steel wtc without seeing the building.

If I understand this right, you are talking about taling out the complete chimney from an upstairs room and leaving the chimney overhead? I still dont see what is going to carry this chimney overhead? Maybe I completely misunderstand.

paddy147

Spread wrote: »

paddy147, you will find out soon enough if it is a shared chimney as you begin to remove the bricks. If it is, you would then inform the client, explain what has to be done and if the client wants to go ahead, then speak to the neighbour and the council. Why bring extra costs in and why worry about things that might never be.
The OP asked for opinions ....... I gave mine. Having a lot of experience in the field I pass that onto others. He does not want to read point scoring exercises. You seem to get hot under the collar easily. Suffering from small man syndrome, are we?

Again,I will ask you the questions.....

Have you seen the OPs house?

Have you assessed its structural layout??

Are you a structural engineer???


A few of us here are questioning you here,on how you give this precise advice to the OP,when the answers to the 3 questions above are NO.



Now,where I come from,and with my own personal experience of building/rennovation projects,professional experts (as in a structural engineer/building inspector) are called into assess work like this PROPPERLY and BEFORE any structural work is done,or any bricks/concrete are removed.






PS-I love how you are now adding on little bits of info,as you go along/make this up.....post by post.

Have a read of your own post above and then think about it for a minute.

Then ask yourself,why so many of us here,have said that its best to get a structural engineer,before anything is done.

mickdw

Ok, so it appears Spread is advising to use a L bracket fixed to the existing wall to either side of the chimney, and using this to carry the entire chimney overhead which would include the section above roof finish and the section within the attic space typically. A considerable loading IMO.
This idea might be a runner if dealing with a specific type of structure, maybe for example a chimney built into a substantial wall, the wall going all the way to the roof apex and perhaps 600mm thick meaning the chimney may not be very much thicker than the wall resulting in brackets that are not over worked and also meaning that there will be signifincant tie in to the wall all the way to roof apex.
Nowhere does the OP state the location of the chimney or the construction type of the house or whether its on a gable or running up the middle of the house.
It is quite possible that the chimney in question is an internal chimney with only a 100mm block wall coming off it at each side (or possibly stud walls). It is also likely that only the chimney stack will extend above ceiling level. If this was the case, how would your proposal work?
Even if there happened to be a 100mm block wall tied into both sides of chimney and continuing all the way to roof apex, there is no way this would be a suitable structure to carry the very much off centred load of the chimney (assuming chimney built to one side of wall as appears to be the case.
I do believe you advice is crazy as you have no idea what is involved in this case.

Spread

The OP asked members for advice. I gave what I understand to be the right advice and the simplest way of doing things. If the chimney is any different from the one that I have described .......... the OP will realise that and move on to other poster's notes. This thread is meant to be mutually beneficial and not an arena for crossing swords.

mickdw

But you didnt describe the chimney type you were talking about. Im an Engineer and from reading your first post re the brackets, it was not immediately obvious what you were intending to do as I had a picture of a different chimney layout in my head.
This brings us back to the point of getting a professional to look at it before doing anything. Someone suggested getting a builder and an Engineer. I would have to agree with this. That way, they can discuss the issues and come up with the most suitable approach from a structural safety point of view and also from the point of view of actually doing the work. Some Engineers will come up with great designs although completely impractical to actually build. Agreeing an approach first and then providing a design is a good way to go.