Prime Time - Investigation Into Prostitution: Feb 7th 2012

lynski

no punters = no traffickers and pimps it is kinda simplistic i know, but demand is what is keeping those women trapped in those flats in every major town in Ireland.
and what kind of a man are you if you have to pay someone to have sex with you?

NewHillel

lynski wrote: »

WTF is wrong with the men of Ireland?
I feel nauseous just thinking about how many 'men' go through the doors of brothels, there has to be men we have all met, spoken to, worked with, shaken hands with who have 'engaged' with 'prostitutes' *shivers*
Actually these women are not prostitutes they are prostituted women.
I am really sickened by the punters, the sooner it is made illegal to buy sex the better

We're not all like that.

irishh_bob

lynski wrote: »

no punters = no traffickers and pimps it is kinda simplistic i know, but demand is what is keeping those women trapped in those flats in every major town in Ireland.
and what kind of a man are you if you have to pay someone to have sex with you?

its pretty pathetic alright but thier are some men who are ugly or simply cant score with women , its different for men , unlike women , they cant get sex on tap

darragh16

Taxi drivers will be getting a hounding on Joe Duffy tomorrow as well...Its always the taxi drivers

Fight_Night

lynski wrote: »

no punters = no traffickers and pimps it is kinda simplistic i know, but demand is what is keeping those women trapped in those flats in every major town in Ireland.
and what kind of a man are you if you have to pay someone to have sex with you?

There will always be punters, just as there will always be drug users, murderers, pedophiles etc. Just the world we live in, it's unrealistic to expect to get rid of the demand for prostitution. Some people don't just don't care. I personally am of the opinion that consensual sex between two adults where money is exchanged is not necessarily wrong and shouldn't necessarily be illegal. But trafficking like that is disgusting and should definitely be stamped out by any means necessary.

hotmail.com

lynski wrote: »

no punters = no traffickers and pimps it is kinda simplistic i know, but demand is what is keeping those women trapped in those flats in every major town in Ireland.
and what kind of a man are you if you have to pay someone to have sex with you?

What two consenting adults do in the bedroom is their own business, whether money is exchanged or not. The trafficing is the issue the programme was trying to highlight, not the morality of paying for sex. I think most of us have moved on from that.

NewHillel

lynski wrote: »

no punters = no traffickers and pimps it is kinda simplistic i know, but demand is what is keeping those women trapped in those flats in every major town in Ireland.
and what kind of a man are you if you have to pay someone to have sex with you?

It's not at all simplistic, just simple facts. It's a thoroughly nasty business and the punters must take their full share of the blame.

Ben D Bus

lynski wrote: »

no punters = no traffickers and pimps it is kinda simplistic i know, but demand is what is keeping those women trapped in those flats in every major town in Ireland.
and what kind of a man are you if you have to pay someone to have sex with you?

Can you honestly imagine there being no demand? Ever, anywhere in the world, anytime in history?

I think a pragmatic approach is required. I don't know what that approach is, but to me anything else is about making normal people feel more comfortable, and not about helping those who truly suffer in this industry.

Skid

topgeas wrote: »

live line tomorrow with joe should be good

I admire your optimism.

JonathanAnon

lynski wrote: »

and what kind of a man are you if you have to pay someone to have sex with you?

In reality most of the men are just sad and lonely individuals, who wouldnt get sex outside of a brothel..

And I dont appreciate your "all men are b*stards" tone, you sound like those Ruhama people... Dont forget some women, like that ex model, are also profiting from the sex trade..

steelcityblues

lynski wrote: »

no punters = no traffickers and pimps it is kinda simplistic i know, but demand is what is keeping those women trapped in those flats in every major town in Ireland.
and what kind of a man are you if you have to pay someone to have sex with you?

One - who as long as they are respectful to the women involved - is no more odd than anyone else.

Ben D Bus

I bet this discussion is as old as the profession itself.

NewHillel

Fight_Night wrote: »

I personally am of the opinion that consensual sex between two adults where money is exchanged is not necessarily wrong and shouldn't necessarily be illegal. But trafficking like that is disgusting and should definitely be stamped out by any means necessary.

I am all for a Libertarian society, for consenting adults. It is simply nobody else's business what consenting adults do in their private lives.
The problem with prostitution, in that regard, is that it is all but impossible to be sure that the prostitute is truly a free agent.

NewHillel

JonathanAnon wrote: »

In reality most of the men are just sad and lonely individuals, who wouldnt get sex outside of a brothel.

So that's all right then. Doesn't matter whether the woman is working under duress, or not - once the "poor lonely man" is looked after. Not in my universe!

jd

NewHillel wrote: »

I am all for a Libertarian society, for consenting adults. It is simply nobody else's business what consenting adults do in their private lives.

It'd be interesting to see a libertarian like Shane Ross debate the issue in the Dail, for sure..

amacachi

NewHillel wrote: »

So that's all right then. Doesn't matter whether the woman is working under duress, or not - once the "poor lonely man" is looked after. Not in my universe!

That's so what he was trying to say yeah.

hotmail.com

JonathanAnon wrote: »

In reality most of the men are just sad and lonely individuals, who wouldnt get sex outside of a brothel..

And I dont appreciate your "all men are b*stards" tone, you sound like those Ruhama people... Dont forget some women, like that ex model, are also profiting from the sex trade..

I don't think the men that pay for sex are sad or lonely, they're just horny.

irishh_bob

NewHillel wrote: »

So that's all right then. Doesn't matter whether the woman is working under duress, or not - once the "poor lonely man" is looked after. Not in my universe!

just my opinion but i think a guy who cant score the conventional way would get more out of chastity than getting sex in the same way you get a haircut , by using cash , i think sex for money is bad for the one paying aswell

Ben D Bus

NewHillel wrote: »

I am all for a Libertarian society, for consenting adults. It is simply nobody else's business what consenting adults do in their private lives.
The problem with prostitution, in that regard, is that it is all but impossible to be sure that the prostitute is truly a free agent.

That to me is the killer argument.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think criminalising the customer will do it. Traffickers & pimps are already criminals but the money to be made is obviously huge. Some form of legalisation (and, pragmatist that I am, taxation!)?

hotmail.com

Ben D Bus wrote: »

That to me is the killer argument.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think criminalising the customer will do it. Traffickers & pimps are already criminals but the money to be made is obviously huge. Some form of legalisation (and, pragmatist that I am, taxation!)?

Isn't it currently illegal to pay for sex?

Ben D Bus

hotmail.com wrote: »

Isn't it currently illegal to pay for sex?

Not according to the programme I've just watched.

hotmail.com

Ben D Bus wrote: »

Not according to the programme I've just watched.

Oh right, I didn't really watch the second half. I always thought both the customer and the prostitute were breaking the law.

token101

NewHillel wrote: »

I am all for a Libertarian society, for consenting adults. It is simply nobody else's business what consenting adults do in their private lives.
The problem with prostitution, in that regard, is that it is all but impossible to be sure that the prostitute is truly a free agent.

I didn't watch the show, but these 'punters' must know full well and be able to distinguish women are being kept as slaves as opposed to the consenting 'professional' women in it for the money? Surely your conscience would at least make you go and give an anonymous tip? You'd want to be a seriously f***ed up human being if you could sleep at night knowing that someone who could easily be your mother/sister/daughter given different circumstances is essentially being raped on a daily basis and you did nothing.

Ben D Bus

hotmail.com wrote: »

Oh right, I didn't really watch the second half. I always thought both the customer and the prostitute were breaking the law.

If I got it right, prostitution isn't illegal in Ireland. Soliciting is, and by extension brothel-keeping. So offering sex for money breaks the law but asking for sex for money doesn't?

irishh_bob

token101 wrote: »

I didn't watch the show, but these 'punters' must know full well and be able to distinguish women are being kept as slaves as opposed to the consenting 'professional' women in it for the money? Surely your conscience would at least make you go and give an anonymous tip? You'd want to be a seriously f***ed up human being if you could sleep at night knowing that someone who could easily be your mother/sister/daughter given different circumstances is essentially being raped on a daily basis and you did nothing.

from viewing prime time , it appears all prostitutes are controlled by someone , no such thing as say when , say where , say who with

JonathanAnon

Ben D Bus wrote: »

Not according to the programme I've just watched.

It IS still illegal. They arrested the prostitutes in this program, but normally the guards focus on the punters.. But both sides of the "transaction" are illegal.

Ben D Bus

token101 wrote: »

...essentially being raped on a daily basis...

Interesting point. Could a punter, even theoretically, be charged with rape for having sex with a trafficked/pimped prostitute? That might make some people think twice.

token101

irishh_bob wrote: »

from viewing prime time , it appears all prostitutes are controlled by someone , no such thing as say when , say where , say who with

I don't know about that. Again, I didn't watch the show, but I'd say some are in it for the money. There was an article in the Journal about some hard up single mother saying she was doing it. Now the article's probably bull****, but I'd say there's a fair few, particularly Irish women, on the game through choice, albeit because of economic hardship.

gbee

I don't think one can psychoanalysis men, I'm thinking of Liz Hurley's boy friend a few years ago. I'd suggest that the majority of men were stunned to hear that her parter had been arrested for hiring a prostitute.

nxbyveromdwjpg

Ben D Bus wrote: »

Interesting point. Could a punter, even theoretically, be charged with rape for having sex with a trafficked/pimped prostitute? That might make some people think twice.

I wouldn't think so since he isn't raping anybody

token101 wrote: »

but I'd say there's a fair few, particularly Irish women, on the game through choice, albeit because of economic hardship.

A lot of people are in a lot of jobs they don't want due to economic hardship

gbee wrote: »

I don't think one can psychoanalysis men, I'm thinking of Liz Hurley's boy friend a few years ago. I'd suggest that the majority of men were stunned to hear that her parter had been arrested for hiring a prostitute.

Good point, that was a strange one alright, bizarre really.

Attempting to stamp out the "want" for sex is absolutely absurd in any case, these people are obviously desperate, as desperate as the economic hardship cases hence the consent and exchange.

IMO it should be heavily regulated and licensed (health checks etc) and taxed. You can be pretty sure of no trafficking then and no punter will go to a criminal out of choice I wouldn't think. Obvious tax benefit also.

kraggy

How long does it take for Prime Time to be put on the RTE website? Wanna have a look at this later. Sounds interesting (while depressing).

JonathanAnon

kraggy wrote: »

How long does it take for Prime Time to be put on the RTE website? Wanna have a look at this later. Sounds interesting (while depressing).

Up there already... http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1134839

FoxT

It was depressing. Women 'working' 100 hour weeks, in fear, being shunted around from one part of the country to another, living out of suitcases / bin bags in crappy apartments.

These women werent 'working'. Work includes dignity, job satisfaction, and fair compensation. None of these applied to the women depicted in the programme. They were slaves.

Whatever about the rights & wrongs of prostitution, which I am sure have been done to death elsewhere on boards, it is clear from the programme that there is a significant number of women who have been duped/coerced into prostitution here & have lost control of their lives & their destiny as human beings - and a lot of money is being made in the process.

Ireland has two guards investigating, apparently.

nosey guy

cml387 wrote: »

You might have least closed the curtains.

This indeed was the shot of the night...talk about hand in the cookie jar.

Easy pickings.

nosey guy

And no doubt ,ION Anton,claiming the dole joe..

IN five different counties joe.

kraggy

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Up there already... http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1134839

Damn it. Won't play for me because of territorial reasons.

Why is Prime Time Ireland-only? It's not like the soccer where rights have to be protected.

nosietoes

To clarify and to answer those who have asked:

It is absolutely legal in Ireland to buy and sell sex. It is illegal to run a brothel. It is illegal to solicite sex in a public location.

The three girls who were arrested in the Prime Time show were arrested on charges of running a brothel.

Also most apartment leases prohibit running any business from a rented apartment.

Any charge is very hard to put against women... I have heard, though only through hearsay, that the gardaí need 10 punters who have legally bought sex from a girl to turn evidence on the existence of the brothel before they can hope to make an arrest.

The sad fact is that there are far more girls coerced into selling sex than there are women choosing to profit from their bodies.

kraggy

JonathanAnon wrote: »

It IS still illegal. They arrested the prostitutes in this program, but normally the guards focus on the punters.. But both sides of the "transaction" are illegal.

You mean legal.

Running a brothel and soliticting are illegal but the actual payment/receipt of payment are not.

Just watched it there. Did that Samantha one (Irish pimp in Clondalkin) tell the undercover female producer that she'd get half the fee? So that would imply 100 of the 200 per hour charge.

Yet that African girl interviewed said she could have 5 clients in a day but only get paid 30 euro for a days work.

Poor things.

Something needs to be done on the England side about that website.

Ash.J.Williams

The ploughing championship

Park Royal

Looks to me as if Alan Shatter and the Garda Commissioner , need to have

a meeting about getting some work done on these issues......

sort of like, earn your pay.......and huge pensions....

lynski

lynski wrote: »

.....................
and what kind of a man are you if you have to pay someone to have sex with you?

I'd say 50% (at least) of the Irish lads who have gone to Thailand or Amsterdam (without girlfriends in tow) have paid for sex.

Kalinda

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Ben D Bus wrote: »

Not according to the programme I've just watched.

It IS still illegal. They arrested the prostitutes in this program, but normally the guards focus on the punters.. But both sides of the "transaction" are illegal.

Why isnt anton arrestd and jailed? I dont get it.

Scanlas The 2nd

lynski wrote: »

and what kind of a man are you if you have to pay someone to have sex with you?

You would be a man who lacks the ability to seduce women, you would be a man who struggles to successfully chat up women.

Do you look down upon men who aren't very good at seducing women? Do you view them as "sad"?

What kind of man are you if you can't say the alphabet backwards?

Some people simply aren't good at certain things.

Ash.J.Williams

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

You would be a man who lacks the ability to seduce women, you would be a man who struggles to successfully chat up women.

Do you look down upon men who aren't very good at seducing women? Do you view them as "sad"?

If your answer is "yes" you are contributing to people trafficking, drugs and death!

JonathanAnon

kraggy wrote: »

You mean legal.Running a brothel and soliticting are illegal but the actual payment/receipt of payment are not.

Just listening to the radio today it appears I'm wrong.. That it is not illegal to pay for sex.. I'm a bit confused though.. This case was in the media last year

Men caught in prostitution sting by undercover gardai enter guilty pleas

FEMALE garda officers posed as prostitutes as part of a major sting operation which brought 21 potential clients before court. Dressed in plain clothes, the gardai were propositioned by the 21 men on several streets in Limerick city. The female officers were supported by their colleagues, who were positioned nearby throughout the sting operation. In some instances, the officers were approached by men driving cars.

The vast majority of the offences took place between 9pm and midnight in the Barrington Street, Catherine Street and Mallow Street areas of Limerick city. The garda operation is the first major sting operation outside of the capital to target potential clients of prostitutes. 'Operation Freewheel' will continue over the Christmas period and into the new year.Twenty-one men -- aged from 23 to 67 -- pleaded guilty in Limerick District Court yesterday to soliciting or importuning female garda officers for the purpose of prostitution.

In other incidents, Sgt Leahy said the men approached two plain-clothed gardai acting as prostitutes and offered them money for sex or sexual activity. All 21 men were directed to appear before Judge Eamon O'Brien yesterday.

The offenders, with addresses in Limerick, Clare, Tipperary and Kerry, pleaded guilty to the offence under the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993. Ten of them were arrested in Limerick city over the past weekend.

The case hit the headlines because all 21 men were "named and shamed". Still leaves me confused as to what exactly the men were convicted of, IF offering money for sex is NOT illegal?

SBWife

JonathanAnon wrote: »

The case hit the headlines because all 21 men were "named and shamed". Still leaves me confused as to what exactly the men were convicted of, IF offering money for sex is NOT illegal?

AFAIK it's not illegal to offer money for sex in private but curb crawling is illegal.

Scanlas The 2nd

SBWife wrote: »

JonathanAnon wrote: »

The case hit the headlines because all 21 men were "named and shamed". Still leaves me confused as to what exactly the men were convicted of, IF offering money for sex is NOT illegal?

AFAIK it's not illegal to offer money for sex in private but curb crawling is illegal.

Is it illegal to ask for sex on the street for free?

TMC99

"A discussion document on the possibility of such legislation criminalising the purchase of sex will be issued by the end of the month, according to the Department of Justice.

Although it is an offence to solicit prostitution in a public place, it is not an offence to sell or purchase sex, except in the case where someone knowingly solicits a person who has been trafficked for the purpose of prostitution."

"A group including representatives of the Department of Justice and gardaí travelled to Sweden last September to meet officials and experts to examine 1999 Swedish legislation which provides that a person who obtains or attempts to obtain a casual sexual relation, in any place, in return for payment commits an offence.

A report on the visit was published by the department at which time Minister for Justice Alan Shatter said a consultation document would be prepared to inform future legislation in this area."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...310626760.html

irishh_bob

token101 wrote: »

I don't know about that. Again, I didn't watch the show, but I'd say some are in it for the money. There was an article in the Journal about some hard up single mother saying she was doing it. Now the article's probably bull****, but I'd say there's a fair few, particularly Irish women, on the game through choice, albeit because of economic hardship.

im not saying they dont do it out of financial nesscesity , im saying all of them are having to give a cut to someone

irishh_bob

irishh_bob wrote: »

im not saying they dont do it out of financial nesscesity , im saying all of them are having to give a cut to someone

All of them?
So there are no actual self employed (or whatever the term is) escorts/prostitutes working in Ireland that do not give a cut to someone?