save no. 16 Moore Street

Fuinseog

the last hQ of the 1916 insurgents is in a decrepit state and the authorities do not have any plans to restore it. there seem to be plans afoot to build yet another shopping center in the area, which would destroy the moore street market. it is a pity that there is not more respect for heritage in the capital.

FreudianSlippers

Is 16 the Plunket building?

delta_bravo

That plan is dead in the water. It was speculated by Arnotts who are now in NAMA

Poxyshamrock

Was it not John Lewis who were to develop that site?

John Mason

thats all been scraped now - remember we were going to have that roof top park and a ski slope on top of it :rolleyes:

Fuinseog

delta_bravo wrote: »

That plan is dead in the water. It was speculated by Arnotts who are now in NAMA

I read in on the last page of The Irish Times magazine which featured Moore Street and said planning permission had been granted and gave the impression it was going ahead.

FreudianSlippers

There is something going ahead I just can't remember what off the top of my head. I'll have a look and let you know today/tomorrow.

Gileadi

These days there is quite a gap between planning permission being granted and the developer actually having the cash to go ahead.

PP lasts for 5 years as far as I remember so its probably been put on the long finger incase of a miracle recovery.

FreudianSlippers

Ok, so apparently the Carlton Cinema Development is still going ahead but they're dealing with an arsenic find on site. The "park in the sky" plan is not the same plan apparently (the new one is far more dull and ugly).

This has been discussed in the Dáil recently: http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/01/31/00048.asp

83. Deputy Michael Colreavy asked the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht the steps he has taken to secure the future of 14-17 Moore Street, Dublin; and if he will ensure that the area around Moore Street can be developed into a revolutionary quarter at the heart of Dublin city. [5194/12]

Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Jimmy Deenihan): In January 2007, the then Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government placed a preservation order on Nos. 14 to 17 Moore Street under the National Monuments Acts. The order was made on the grounds that No. 16 is a monument, the preservation of which is of national importance by reason of its historical significance as the site of the final council of war and final headquarters of the Provisional Government. The effect of the order is that works affecting these properties, including any excavation or ground disturbance within, around or in proximity to them, will require my consent under section 14 of the National Monuments Act 1930, as amended.

The proposed development of the Carlton Cinema site, of which Nos. 14 to 17 Moore Street form part, and for which approval has been granted by An Bord Pleanála, envisages the retention of these buildings and the provision of a commemorative centre to the 1916 Rising in No. 16. The developer’s application to my Department for consent to these proposals under section 14 of the National Monuments Acts is being examined. As part of the process, I have visited the monument site and met various interest groups, including relatives of the 1916 leaders. My Department is currently in consultation with the National Museum of Ireland in relation to the application and I hope to be able to make a decision on it shortly.

Any wider plans for the development of the Moore Street area would be a matter for the relevant landowners and the development authority, Dublin City Council.

So, it's safe.

Fuinseog

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Ok, so apparently the Carlton Cinema Development is still going ahead but they're dealing with an arsenic find on site. The "park in the sky" plan is not the same plan apparently (the new one is far more dull and ugly).

This has been discussed in the Dáil recently: http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/01/31/00048.asp


So, it's safe.

thanks for that. while no. 16 is a national monument I wonder are there any plans to restore it? it does not look as if anything has been done with it since 1916. I heard there were talks of making a museum out of it.

Boulevardier

Why would any Irish patriot want to keep a place of surrender as a monument?

Its almost like the Ku Klux Klan wanting to preserve Appomattox Court House in memory of 1865.

Faith+1

Boulevardier wrote: »

Why would any Irish patriot want to keep a place of surrender as a monument?

Its almost like the Ku Klux Klan wanting to preserve Appomattox Court House in memory of 1865.

Because it's our history, The Easter Rising was technically a failure yet we still celebrate it. And please don't compare Irish Patriots to douchebag hick racists.

Fuinseog

Boulevardier wrote: »

Why would any Irish patriot want to keep a place of surrender as a monument?

Its almost like the Ku Klux Klan wanting to preserve Appomattox Court House in memory of 1865.

people who study Irish history come to Dublin and want to see where the battles were fought.

delta_bravo

Fuinseog wrote: »

people who study Irish history come to Dublin and want to see where the battles were fought.

There wasn't much fighting around there.

A thought came to my head really about this. The GPO itself would be an excellent place for a museum/centre about 1916. Kick An Post out and send their HQ out to Clondalkin or somewhere else. The building is very much under-utilised by the public in terms of its potential.

Boulevardier

The GPO museum idea was floated by FF a few years ago. Like most FF ideas, I do not like it.

Postal services are being "opened up" to competition at the behest of our EU masters. As part of this process, the publicly-owned An Post is being run down.

Taking An Post out of the GPO would serve that marginalising agenda very well.

FreudianSlippers

Boulevardier wrote: »

The GPO museum idea was floated by FF a few years ago. Like most FF ideas, I do not like it.

Postal services are being "opened up" to competition at the behest of our EU masters. As part of this process, the publicly-owned An Post is being run down.

Taking An Post out of the GPO would serve that marginalising agenda very well.

How exactly?

Boulevardier

In the UK I saw post offices being moved from prestige spots in towns to less prominent locations, while their old locations were then by private companies.

I do not like seeing the profile of public services and institutions sidelined in this way. I would prefer to see public service institutions such as post offices keep pride of place on our streets.

_blank_

Boulevardier, this is not the politics forum, please don't post about politics again.

EU Masters, privatisation, the GPO.

This thread is about No. 16 Moore Street, thanks.

Do not post off topic again.

No one else is to reply off topic either.

D

As far as I am aware there is a small museum in the GPO.

Boulevardier

Des, this is a political topic. However, I wont labour the point.

HellFireClub

When this all came up a few years ago, the authorities didn't seem to be too sure if the current no 16 Moore Street is the same property that was the 16 Moore Street of 1916... Has this been finally settled???

Fuinseog

Boulevardier wrote: »

The GPO museum idea was floated by FF a few years ago. Like most FF ideas, I do not like it.

Postal services are being "opened up" to competition at the behest of our EU masters. As part of this process, the publicly-owned An Post is being run down.

Taking An Post out of the GPO would serve that marginalising agenda very well.

The GPO is a massive under used structure. there was talk of an art gallery or museum. A bit of culture on the main street of Dublin might not go astray. do we really need a post office that size? there are smaller ones all over the city, even around the corner in Parnell street.

i am surprised that nothing was ever done with 16 moore street. to my knowledge while there is a wreath placed there around Easter there is no plaque. The pub at the end of the street where the surrender was made does have a plaque.

nudger

Moore street has never looked so neglected, No16 included, I would be more than happy to see the street developed and a plaque or another piece of street art put in place to mark it's history.

The area around the GPO and the GPO itself were offered to the Abbey Theatre as a new home for them, to be part of the 1916 centenary.
It was offered to them around 3 years ago and plans were at an advanced stage, extensive studies have been carried out, but it was not popular with the public so has been staled.
This, as an apology for missing out on a new site for their centenary in 2004. The government promised a new home, many sites were looked at, most of which have now been built on.
The GPO is still on offer but how much would it cost?

barrylyons

Hi folks , i have read your thread with interest and although i am a bit late on the reply ,i hope I can answer some of your questions.

1. 16 moore street is where the leaders met for the last time, the developer who is a member of the anglo golden circle has tried to discredit this by mis information . This is definately the house , Number 16.
2. The whole terrace was part of a battlefield site and a lot of fighting went on here.after escaping from the GPO 300 or more including ,James Connolly on a stretcher , the young Michael Collins ,Tom clarke, Joe plunkett,Noel lemass,The Orahilly, went down Henry place, and into number 10. There was people killed along the way including civillians, as british had gun emplacements at the top of Moore lane and the top of Moore street.
3 . This is one of the few places from 1916 that is as it was then , The Gpo was gutted and re built.
4. the area has been let run down by the developer ,including at one stage ,someone took the roof off number 16. All of the tenants are on weekly leases. and no work is done to clean the area. It is in his interest to have it looking bad.
5. Under the current plans submitted by the developer ,which as we speak are still been concidered.60% of the national monument will be demolished and the area in whic it sits will be forever lost,Imagine taking away 60% of newgrange?? or building a supermarket around it .
The developer wants to Gut the interior, drop the floor ,and build over,under and around it. only the front of it will remain
6. its hard to imagine ,but with a small amount of funding , the area if preserved would make a great historic and culture quarter, imagine re enactments, artizan shops, a battle trail...this is what tourists want to see.
7. Every trick in the book has been employed ,including mis informing the public through the meidia,to push the planned demolition of the area. and its a bit like your man who . fought the giant.

Quickly on the gpo, it was a post office in 1916 !!!!

Boulevardier

I still think that

(1) 16 Moore st was a place of defeat and surrender. My grandad fought in 1916 (South Dublin Union) but I would have little pride in any monument at Moore St.

(2) The GPO, which already has a reasonable 1916 memorial in situ, should stay a post office. My reasons I are socio-political and apparently not welcome on this thread, but they are valid nonetheless.

However, if people really want to preserve 16 moore St, I would not lose any sleep over it.

barrylyons

Moore street has all ready been designated a national monument. it what the developer wants to do with it and the disregard he has shown . This guy owes us a fortune and now he wants to knock something that has been designated.

My granfather fought in Jacobs, My great uncle and aunt at the green , The Thing about Moore street is not the defeat, but what was built out of the ashes of this. It was the last place where the first government of Ireland met .

Who would want a supermarket there, with the profits going abroad, Think of the tourist potential of the area.

Have you seen the 1916 section in the gpo .it is a tiny section at the back

FreudianSlippers

barrylyons wrote: »

4. the area has been let run down by the developer ,including at one stage ,someone took the roof off number 16. All of the tenants are on weekly leases. and no work is done to clean the area. It is in his interest to have it looking bad.

This area was left to rot a long time ago, so you can't blame the developer for that. The Ilac project was a complete disaster and Moore Street was completely under utilised. It's a shame the Carlton Cinema development is not going ahead with the caveat (now government protected) that the façades of significant Moore Street buildings be kept in tact - or, where possible, the entire building restored and incorporated into the development (a la Powerscourt Centre.

5. Under the current plans submitted by the developer ,which as we speak are still been concidered.60% of the national monument will be demolished and the area in whic it sits will be forever lost,Imagine taking away 60% of newgrange?? or building a supermarket around it .

That's slightly over the top in fairness.

The developer wants to Gut the interior, drop the floor ,and build over,under and around it. only the front of it will remain

From what I understand there is little salvageable from the interiors. Plus, they are not the original interiors in any event.

The monument status of the building, however, will protect what is original from demolition.

6. its hard to imagine ,but with a small amount of funding , the area if preserved would make a great historic and culture quarter, imagine re enactments, artizan shops, a battle trail...this is what tourists want to see.

Unfortunately the Carlton Cinema development is no longer going ahead (indefinitely shelved) and this street along with the rest of North Dublin city centre is left to rot by a massive suburbanisation mentality and groups with vested interests in pushing people out of the city centre.

The Mater development planning permission news yesterday is the final nail in the coffin for me with regard to Dublin ever being a good city again. I've given up even getting my hopes up that the city will be properly treated and revamped.

barrylyons

This area was left to rot a long time ago, so you can't blame the developer for that. The Ilac project was a complete disaster and Moore Street was completely under utilised. It's a shame the Carlton Cinema development is not going ahead with the caveat (now government protected) that the façades of significant Moore Street buildings be kept in tact - or, where possible, the entire building restored and incorporated into the development (a la Powerscourt Centre.

Reply, The developer has to be held responsible as he has let the area run down for over 10 years ..as you pointed out about the ILAC ..The same developer owns that. and wants to link it to the carlton site. This same developer is a member of the ANGLO GOLDEN CIRCLE ..how can you defend such ??????

Under the Current plans the Developer submitted it DOES encroach on 60% of the all ready designated National Monument..This is Fact not "a slight exageration"

The interior of the building is the original otherwise it would have not recieved national monument status. However a fireplace was "removed " This is the very room in which the Provisional Gov met for the last time. it is unique ,whether you agree with the politics of the era or not it should be totally restored ...it would if it was in any other country.

The Carlton development would Ruin the northside of Dublin..Why oh why would we want another ILac ...

I cannot understand why anyone would support a member of the Anglo Golden Circle . Developers got the country into the mess we are in and yet you want us to put our trust in another .

Dont be decieving the public with tactics. The only one with vested interests in Pushing people out of the city are ...Developers

Moore street is a gem in the rough ..with litte investment it could bring a lot of needed footfall by way of tourism to the area.. Keep our city as a city not as some heartless steel and glass structure .

They are shouting it from the Trees..Tourism is the way foreword...look at Kilmainham and the amount of tourists it brings in ......and they wanted to knock that years ago???

bb1234567

True I think Moore street could be a lovely street, how about first fix up the street, some nice trees and decorative lighting, then fix up store facades and make them attractive looking. Then get rid of the tacky indian and asian 2nd hand phone stores and takeaways and replace them with artisan shops, specialty food stores, cheesmongers,fish shop,butcher,bakery,cafes and nice restaurants and then a put in a gret museum and memorial in 16. moore street then it could be a really nice street:)

barrylyons

I could be great, temple bar without the pubs, The cultural quarter of Dublin

Miguel_Sanchez

I'm working on a TV documentary about this very topic. Can't say much about it at the moment but I'll post details of when it's going to be aired closer to the time.