save no. 16 Moore Street

MadsL

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Where do you draw the line? They passed through some buildings, so those buildings should now be preserved indefinitely? Was it a crime against history to repair the holes made in the party walls of the buildings? Was it wrong to resurface Henry Street since they crossed it?

I'm not sold on the No. 16 thing, but I can shrug my shoulders and not worry about it. But Jaysus, lads, don't get carried away and try to make shrines out of everything.

Shrines :rolleyes:

Give me a reason to demolish these rather than put them into some coherent understanding of the historical fabric other than a token 'gift shop' style 'commemorative' centre.

Doubtless you will say 'jobs' to which I'll counter...think of the potential of actually being able to bring tourists in droves to a well designed commemoration and memorial of the Rising - and to be able to be proud of a the birth of the nation, and what has been achieved to rescue this rotting terrace. To be able to take tourists on a walking tour through the buildings and lanes and describe the events as they happened one hundred years ago.

Or you could shrug and build a poxy shopping centre full of overpriced UK retail chain stores. If ever a potent symbol of defeat was found, surely that is it.

bb1234567

MadsL wrote: »

Don't confuse a modern-ish facade with the age of the building. Bolds mine below.



Conservation architects (Shaffrey and Associates report to Dublin City Council dated Nov 2005 )

These buildings are all part of the demolition plan shown on Drawing No. 5539-004 by Chartered Land.



http://www.nga.ie/news-Moore_St_Appeal.php


Here's the complete proposal for renovation of the terrace.

http://www.gaelicadventure.org/pdfs/h16.pdf

The redevelopment plan for the street looks fantastic. Rebuilding the facades and replcaing the tacky stores with tenants that were around during 1916. Looks great ,if it goes ahead moore street could be really cool,very cultural and maybe a big tourist attraction.:)

P. Breathnach

MadsL wrote: »

...
Give me a reason to demolish these rather than put them into some coherent understanding of the historical fabric other than a token 'gift shop' style 'commemorative' centre.

I'm not arguing for their demolition; I'm arguing against retaining them on the basis of what happened in 1916 which, in essence, was that a group of rebels passed through them after retreating from the GPO.

Doubtless you will say 'jobs'

No, I won't.

to which I'll counter...think of the potential of actually being able to bring tourists in droves to a well designed commemoration and memorial of the Rising - and to be able to be proud of a the birth of the nation, and what has been achieved to rescue this rotting terrace. To be able to take tourists on a walking tour through the buildings and lanes and describe the events as they happened one hundred years ago.

I don't share your opinion about droves of tourists, and even if I were wrong about that, I have already opined in this thread that tourist footfall would not sustain up-market retail in that area.

Or you could shrug and build a poxy shopping centre full of overpriced UK retail chain stores.

I'm not arguing for that (particularly the "poxy" and "overpriced" components; I don't think "British" should be an issue one way or another).

If ever a potent symbol of defeat was found, surely that is it.

You make it sound as if keeping out British retailers should be something akin to a war aim.

MadsL

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'm not arguing for their demolition; I'm arguing against retaining them on the basis of what happened in 1916 which, in essence, was that a group of rebels passed through them after retreating from the GPO.

Group of rebels? Passed through? You are aware that Patrick Pearse surrendered to British forces at this spot

That five of the seven signatories of the Irish Proclamation of Independence - Patrick Pearse, James Connolly, Thomas Clarke, Joseph Plunkett and Sean MacDermott, as well as Michael Collins all surrendered here.

That The O’Rahilly bled out and died in Moore Lane.

Hardly just a 'group of rebels'.

No, I won't.

Good.

I don't share your opinion about droves of tourists, and even if I were wrong about that, I have already opined in this thread that tourist footfall would not sustain up-market retail in that area.

One proposal is for workshops/shops for indiginous arts and crafts and provide working spaces for sliversmiths, potters, leather and woodcraft, flutemakers and other instrument makers. I could see an arts and craft centre out of the street working well.

I'm not arguing for that (particularly the "poxy" and "overpriced" components; I don't think "British" should be an issue one way or another).

As English myself I agree that the nationality should not matter, but surely some sites are worth special treatment for their history. The English would go bananas if it were proposed to tear down Shakespeare Birthplace and build a McDonalds. Indeed one positive about the proposal to ship it to America by PT Barnham in the mid-1800s was the raising of funds to buy it by subscription and form the Trust that now holds it.

You make it sound as if keeping out British retailers should be something akin to a war aim.

Did I not say this was about history not politics, surely you can see the irony in building a shopping centre for the benefit of an anchor (likely British) retailer on the site.

P. Breathnach

MadsL wrote: »

Group of rebels?

Yes.

Passed through?

Yes.

You are aware that Patrick Pearse surrendered to British forces at this spot

Yes. One spot: number 16. Not half of the street, although they passed through other buildings on the way to number 16. It's the suggestion that we make a monument of every building through which they passed that I find objectionable.

That five of the seven signatories of the Irish Proclamation of Independence - Patrick Pearse, James Connolly, Thomas Clarke, Joseph Plunkett and Sean MacDermott, as well as Michael Collins all surrendered here.

So let that be remembered at number 16 by those who want to remember it.

That The O’Rahilly bled out and died in Moore Lane.

Well-known (I think). Do you want a memorial at every place that a rebel died?

Hardly just a 'group of rebels'.

So what should I call them? They were taking part in a rebellion.

One proposal is for workshops/shops for indiginous arts and crafts and provide working spaces for sliversmiths, potters, leather and woodcraft, flutemakers and other instrument makers. I could see an arts and craft centre out of the street working well.

And that's the sort of gentrification proposal that I think is doomed to failure. That sort of activity appeals to upmarket shoppers, and they congregate around Grafton Street. The retail profile for the Henry Street area and the lower end of Mary Street is mid-market; the neighbouring streets tend towards downmarket. Moore Street is very downmarket at the moment. You can't just wave a magic wand and convert downmarket to upmarket.

If you want to improve Moore Street, I think the starting point should be to recognise what it now is, and possibly make it into a better version of that.

As English myself I agree that the nationality should not matter, but surely some sites are worth special treatment for their history.

Are you suggesting that we should resist British businesses getting a foothold in Moore Street? If that is what you mean, I think it a preposterous idea.

Did I not say this was about history not politics, surely you can see the irony in building a shopping centre for the benefit of an anchor (likely British) retailer on the site.

It's not enough to say that it's about history and not politics if you then go on to make negative comments about the possibility that British firms might operate in Moore Street.

MadsL

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Yes. One spot: number 16. Not half of the street, although they passed through other buildings on the way to number 16. It's the suggestion that we make a monument of every building through which they passed that I find objectionable.

They didn't pass through...this was a makeshift barracks ffs. The tunnels were to move through the buildings avoiding sniper fire.

So let that be remembered at number 16 by those who want to remember it.

Do you want a memorial at every place that a rebel died?

Is there something objectionable in your view about memorials?

It irks me that the past in Ireland tends to be viewed excessively as having been shaped as a struggle between British (or English) interests and the Irish people.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76716578

Clearly, if I can get past that - surely you can.

So what should I call them? They were taking part in a rebellion.

Do you not find the phrase 'group of rebels' in the manner that you used it a tiny bit condescending.

And that's the sort of gentrification proposal that I think is doomed to failure.

In your view. What was your prediction about Temple Bar? Would you have preferred a bus garage?

That sort of activity appeals to upmarket shoppers, and they congregate around Grafton Street.
Clery's and Eason's would disagree.

The retail profile for the Henry Street area and the lower end of Mary Street is mid-market; the neighbouring streets tend towards downmarket.

Moore Street is very downmarket at the moment. You can't just wave a magic wand and convert downmarket to upmarket.

So, for the love of god, what is the point of a billion euro on building a fecking shopping centre!!!! You just proved my point.

If you want to improve Moore Street, I think the starting point should be to recognise what it now is, and possibly make it into a better version of that.

We are at the absolute bottom as it is...a better version of Cash Loans - no credit check?

Are you suggesting that we should resist British businesses getting a foothold in Moore Street? If that is what you mean, I think it a preposterous idea.

It's not enough to say that it's about history and not politics if you then go on to make negative comments about the possibility that British firms might operate in Moore Street.

Don't try to make me into something I'm not. You surely understand how the history of a place has a cultural resonance, otherwise you are just deliberately misunderstanding my point.

We can make this site something to be proud of, regardless of nationality; or it can just become another American-style shopping mall; void of any cultural relevance.

P. Breathnach

MadsL wrote: »

They didn't pass through...this was a makeshift barracks ffs. The tunnels were to move through the buildings avoiding sniper fire.

It's a bit ambitious to describe a place where retreating combatants took shelter as a barracks.

Is there something objectionable in your view about memorials?

Not in principle. But I don't want an excess of them.

It irks me that the past in Ireland tends to be viewed excessively as having been shaped as a struggle between British (or English) interests and the Irish people.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76716578

Clearly, if I can get past that - surely you can.

How does it advance this discussion if you introduce in an out-of-context way something I wrote about a different matter?

Do you not find the phrase 'group of rebels' in the manner that you used it a tiny bit condescending.

It wasn't intended that way. I was trying to use language that had no particular loading.

In your view. What was your prediction about Temple Bar? Would you have preferred a bus garage?

Certainly in preference to what is there now! I actually liked the area before TBP developed a cultural quarter of such a type that the bookshops left.

Clery's and Eason's would disagree.

Clery's would probably like it not to be true, because then they wouldn't be struggling. Eason's isn't a particularly upmarket shop.

So, for the love of god, what is the point of a billion euro on building a fecking shopping centre!!!! You just proved my point.

Not quite, mainly because I don't think the possibilities for Moore Street are limited to Plan A or Plan B. I don't think Dublin would be better off with an enormous retail development on that site; neither do I think your preferred alternative would work

We are at the absolute bottom as it is...a better version of Cash Loans - no credit check?

I wrote of a better version. If people want to sell consumer durables, especially in an area where a lot of the shoppers are on low incomes, it's not unreasonable for them to have arrangements with finance companies. I think you need to get your head around what is actually happening on Moore Street. It's downmarket. That's a reasonable level at which to conduct business, because the less well-off (or the parsimonious) also want places to shop.

Don't try to make me into something I'm not. You surely understand how the history of a place has a cultural resonance, otherwise you are just deliberately misunderstanding my point.

I don't believe that I am making you into something that you are not: you have implied repeatedly that you don't want a British retailer installed in the area. That is a point of view that I do not share.

As for your point about cultural resonance: I don't buy it. I believe that for decades the average Dub in the street was unaware that the GPO rebels had retreated into Moore Street; I think it is possible even yet that more Dubs are unaware of it than are aware of it. And of those who do know something about it, many don't care greatly about creating a memorial.

We can make this site something to be proud of, regardless of nationality; or it can just become another American-style shopping mall; void of any cultural relevance.

Or we can consider Plan C or Plan D or ...

MadsL

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's a bit ambitious to describe a place where retreating combatants took shelter as a barracks.

bar·rack 1 (brk)
tr.v. bar·racked, bar·rack·ing, bar·racks
To house (soldiers, for example) in quarters.
n.
1. A building or group of buildings used to house military personnel. Often used in the plural.
2. A large, unadorned building used for temporary occupancy. Often used in the plural.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/barracks

Not in principle. But I don't want an excess of them.

How many others are there apart from grave sites and the GPO?

How does it advance this discussion if you introduce in an out-of-context way something I wrote about a different matter?

Gave me an interesting insight into your viewpoint. Thought I would share...

It wasn't intended that way. I was trying to use language that had no particular loading.

Fair enough.

Certainly in preference to what is there now! I actually liked the area before TPB developed a cultural quarter of such a type that the bookshops left.

And to a point I agree with you, but if a proposal came along to level Temple Bar and build a giant Dunnes on the site, I'd oppose it. And TB has a fraction of the cultural significance of Moore St.

Clery's would probably like it not to be true, because then they wouldn't be struggling. Eason's isn't a particularly upmarket shop.

Not quite, mainly because I don't think the possibilities for Moore Street are limited to Plan A or Plan B. I don't think Dublin would be better off with an enormous retail development on that site; neither do I think your preferred alternative would work

I wrote of a better version. If people want to sell consumer durables, especially in an area where a lot of the shoppers are on low incomes, it's not unreasonable for them to have arrangements with finance companies. I think you need to get your head around what is actually happening on Moore Street. It's downmarket. That's a reasonable level at which to conduct business, because the less well-off (or the parsimonious) also want places to shop.

So on the one hand you support a (relatively) upmarket shopping centre (John Lewis is hardly Walmart territory) but you believe that there is something inherently downmarket about Moore Street.

You might want to read up on the more recent history of the site. Chartered Land managed to get a letter/contract from DCC that they went around shoving in the face of tenants, saying sell your lease to us or DCC will CPO the property anyway. Naturally they got the leases bought out and then found it easy to buy up the properties. DCC faciliated this by CPO on portions of the site then selling council owned yards at Moore Lane to CL without tender.

The upshot of this is that it is impossible to get a long term lease on that side of Moore Street - hence all the mobile phone shops and hair extension low rent here today gone tomorrow places.

Previously (1970) we had Butchers, Londis, Sewing shop and the like. Not 'upmarket' in the sense you mean it. but not Moore Street Mall territory either.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/colleenm/2531339914

Absences of long leases means you cannot have mid or up-market shopping.

I don't believe that I am making you into something that you are not: you have implied repeatedly that you don't want a British retailer installed in the area. That is a point of view that I do not share.

You make me sound like a fanatic...I'm trying to point out the irony; is that really lost on you.

Here's some food analogies. McDonald's on the site of the Bastille, A Little Chef on the site of Bannockburn, The Alamo converted to Mexican restaurant.

I'm not opposed to burgers, fish and chips or Huevos Rancheros but you can surely see that there is something highly incongruous about those particular planning decisions.

As for your point about cultural resonance: I don't buy it. I believe that for decades the average Dub in the street was unaware that the GPO rebels had retreated into Moore Street; I think it is possible even yet that more Dubs are unaware of it than are aware of it. And of those who do know something about it, many don't care greatly about creating a memorial.

Because for years the history of the Rising has been associated with Capital R Republicanism with a big I and A spraypainted next to it. I'm constantly astonished at the ability to cast off a key part of a nation's history to extremism and embarrassment.

Could you share the results of your survey/research as to the attitude to this by the Dubs 'who don't care'. Interesting result.

Or we can consider Plan C or Plan D or ...

Which would be? What Plan C or D would make us proud?

FreudianSlippers

It's not a shopping centre, it's a new pedestrian shopping street to filter people into a derelict area. If you consider Henry Street and Grafton Street "shopping centres" then idk.

P. Breathnach

MadsL wrote: »

...
Gave me an interesting insight into your viewpoint. Thought I would share...

Quote-mining is considered bad form. Why not deal with that I say here, not your construct of what I am?

So on the one hand you support a (relatively) upmarket shopping centre

No I don't. Instead of reading what I say in other threads about different questions, you might be better reading this thread to get my views on this question.

... Absences of long leases means you cannot have mid or up-market shopping.

You might note that I already mentioned the issue of leases. But the creation of long leases would not suffice to create an upmarket precinct on Moore Street. Shoppers are necessary.

...
Here's some food analogies. McDonald's on the site of the Bastille, A Little Chef on the site of Bannockburn, The Alamo converted to Mexican restaurant.

!!!

Could you share the results of your survey/research as to the attitude to this by the Dubs 'who don't care'. Interesting result.

You really should read what I say if you want to discuss it. When I open a sentence with the words "I think" you should recognise that I am stating an opinion.

I recognise that some of what you suggest is opinion - in particular, your apparently unshakable belief that planting an upmarket shopping zone into a dominantly mid- and downmarket area would be successful.

Which would be? What Plan C or D would make us proud?

I have suggested that making Moore Street into a better version of what it now is might be a good thing.

barrylyons

where do you draw the line? They passed through some buildings, so those buildings should now be preserved indefinitely? Was it a crime against history to repair the holes made in the party walls of the buildings? Was it wrong to resurface Henry Street since they crossed it?

I could ask the same question to you, Where do you (Not personally) draw the line, When everything to do with the Rising and 1916 is obliterated.

This makes sense to do the right thing.

Every other Country keeps important historical area's ..........look at the Alamo...Ann franks House...... The Boston freedom trail..........the Bastille..........

P. Breathnach

barrylyons wrote: »

I could ask the same question to you, Where do you (Not personally) draw the line, When everything to do with the Rising and 1916 is obliterated.

This makes sense to do the right thing.

Every other Country keeps important historical area's ..........look at the Alamo...Ann franks House...... The Boston freedom trail..........the Bastille..........

I tried to look at the Bastille once!

Keep the GPO: that's important symbolically. I don't mind if 16 Moore Street is kept, although I worry about how the events of 1916 might be commemorated there. I am very pleased that Kilmainham gaol was saved and restored, for reasons that include, but are not limited to, its importance in 1916.

barrylyons

The GPO was re Built after 1916.............the Moore street area is as it was, one of the few places that you can walk in the footsteps..

Thats the thing, Saving our History does not have to be a bad thing , I want to celebrate 2016, not gather everyone in Moore street and invade Britan and attack anyone who has a different opinion.

FreudianSlippers

The GPO was rebuilt to its 1814 appearance. I have no problem doing that to 14-17 Moore st. But it will involve removing later additions to the property.

P. Breathnach

barrylyons wrote: »

The GPO was re Built after 1916.............the Moore street area is as it was, one of the few places that you can walk in the footsteps..

So if you were offered a trade between keeping the GPO and keeping a terrace of houses on Moore Street, would you sacrifice the GPO? My offer in this mindgame is more generous: the GPO plus number 16.

Thats the thing, Saving our History does not have to be a bad thing ,

We can agree on that. It's editorial policy that we are discussing here.

I want to celebrate 2016, not gather everyone in Moore street and invade Britan and attack anyone who has a different opinion.

Fair enough. But we might meet on another forum to debate the legacy of the rebellion.

MadsL

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It's not a shopping centre, it's a new pedestrian shopping street to filter people into a derelict area. If you consider Henry Street and Grafton Street "shopping centres" then idk.

Or in developer-speak “Dublin Central will transform what has become a marginal urban landscape into a bustling social and cultural environment. It will be a world-class metropolitan development on a scale unprecedented in the city centre. Our vision is to celebrate the city’s prime thoroughfare by creating a striking new piece of Dublin architecture and an unrivalled European retail and leisure destination.” http://www.charteredland.ie/pressrelease_April2008.htm

So, a "retail and leisure destination". Do me a favour. It's a shopping centre. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.

Oddly enough it wasn't derelict before the developers got their hands on it, funny that.

P. Breathnach wrote:

Quote-mining is considered bad form.

Have me black-balled, dear chap...

Why not deal with that I say here, not your construct of what I am?

Would you like to explain your view that Irish history has been skewed as a struggle between the struggle between British (or English) interests and the Irish people and how it influences your viewpoint on this topic? Or am I just constructing? Do continue...as I said, if I can get past this, surely you can...

You might note that I already mentioned the issue of leases. But the creation of long leases would not suffice to create an upmarket precinct on Moore Street. Shoppers are necessary.

Shoppers pass Moore St every day...Henry street is one of the most heavily trafficked areas of Dublin..it has virtually the same footfall as Grafton Street.

Approximately 11,600 shoppers per hour were recorded on
Dublin’s Grafton Street on Saturdays in Q2 2011, down 4% on the
same period last year. In comparison, approximately 11,200
shoppers per hour were recorded on Henry Street on Saturdays
in the second quarter of 2011, a 10% decrease on the same
period in 2010.

Blaming lack of footfall for Moore St's decline is specious nonsense. Deliberate dereliction and poor quality of use is what is driving the redevelopment argument. Is it that difficult to see how large-scale developers use the 'sure, it's rundown' argument when they are in fact the property owners running down the place..how can you not see that??

You might want to do some background reading into the murky tale of the last 30 odd years of developer and council shenanigans about this site. It is not a pretty tale and had Paul Clinton gone ahead and testified at the Oral Hearing (withdrawn at the last minute) we may have heard the full tale of this particular site.
http://www.politico.ie/component/content/article/4-planning-environment/2265-dereliction-on-oconnell-st-city-council-to-blame.html

So on the one hand you support a (relatively) upmarket shopping centre
No I don't. Instead of reading what I say in other threads about different questions, you might be better reading this thread to get my views on this question.

or you could explain your point of view more clearly? Because statements like

I'm not arguing for their demolition; I'm arguing against retaining them

seem to imply some sort of laissez-faire attitude to heritage.

<food analogies>

!!!

Hmm. Having trouble with that analogy eh? Let's try again..how about the listing of the Beatles childhood homes. Would you support that?

http://www.savebritainsheritage.org/news/campaign.php?id=154

What if they were turned into say, a chinese takeaway. Would that be an appropriate use? Or would it be somehow controversial to reject that particular planning application?

You really should read what I say if you want to discuss it. When I open a sentence with the words "I think" you should recognise that I am stating an opinion.

And when you opine on what 'the average Dub' thinks or knows without anything of substance to back that up I think it only fair that I challenge the basis for that. Any factual basis, or just a 'hunch'?

I recognise that some of what you suggest is opinion - in particular, your apparently unshakable belief that planting an upmarket shopping zone into a dominantly mid- and downmarket area would be successful.

Chartered Land are betting one billion euro on it apparently...I'm not 'unshakeably' wedded to the idea, it is one proposal, but I think it is better than yet another Argos, Dunnes, Zara or whatever nationality of retailers you care to pick. Other potential uses could be back to food retailing as the area has sustained to decades prior to 'developer blight'.

Also I'm wondering if there is something of a class-war insistence on your part in protecting the downmarket nature of Moore St. Why does that come across I wonder?

I have suggested that making Moore Street into a better version of what it now is might be a good thing.

Care to describe that? Make it 'a better version' how? Paint the shopfronts of the knockoff mobile shops to make buying a stolen mobile a more attractive shopping experience? Better signage for the walk-up 'massage' salons?

P. Breathnach

MadsL wrote: »

...Would you like to explain your view that Irish history has been skewed as a struggle between the struggle between British (or English) interests and the Irish people and how it influences your viewpoint on this topic? Or am I just constructing? Do continue...as I said, if I can get past this, surely you can...

We are not here to discuss me.

MadsL

P. Breathnach wrote: »

We are not here to discuss me.

Fine, and accepted. I do however find that rarely is a point of view unaccompanied with some wider agenda. I presume from your defensive response I have found yours. Feel free to address my other points.

Fuinseog

moore street, though grotty and run down was one of the few places to keep it real during the celtic tiger. its still very much a place where you can get food at a realistic prices.
without the foreigners the market there would have died out long ago.

_blank_

Closing.

Won't be re-opening.

I asked for this not to descend into this crap, but you did it anyway.

Cool, it's closed now.

Bye!