Possible El Halluf def tactic

Fionn Mc Coule

modified to this maybe

Fionn Mc Coule

Ok so far this is my idea, scout goes to rocks or town asap and hides, sits still for first few mins.

2 x IS7 go to water just to cause mayhem if they make push, chances are these 2 will be sacrificial lambs, hopefully if they do meet a push they can distract them enough for our mass base def on ridge to do massive damage and maybe kill a few. If they make it then they are in great def place.

2 x arty, 1 in town 1 on dunes down right with a e100, that e100 is there to attack any charge that comes up the switchback hunting arty or just attacking.

Rest in base are T95's and Mauses, we can send 1 north to watch for push that way also but id suggest against it being a maus.

Now lets hear the ideas guys

Nody

I'd add 2 T7 arty with plenty of shells (like the 212) or accuracy (261) for pure counter arty. Any defensive tactic on Tebessa is dead if their arty stay alive; hence priority has to be to knock them out. For base defence I'd look at T92s for splash damage instead.

For the same reason I'd not add an arty on the K line from the start because if they do river push you'll lose it (it can be moved there later if needed).

I'd neither send 2 IS-7s to the river because we've had this done to us several times and never really suffered from it (the usual 1 IS-7 killed at most) but punished who ever did it to us (base 1 has longer distance to go so will always come there second). Any competent team will ignore them and simply run to protection and THEN kill them with their own arty and you've lost 2 tanks for minimal gain. I'd leave the scout as the medium in town instead to spot for the ridge and keep the 2 IS-7s safe.

I'd stick a medium/heavy under the A1 ridge; once again this is purely to have eyes there and to stop them all rolling down with out knowledge. Second scout (T30 or similar) at D1 to support fire as well to make them hesitate to roll down in full.

Also keeping in mind if it looks like they will need to kill us all (i.e. less then 1 min 40s to go and no one on cap) to consider sending away one or two tanks from the base to a corner instead. That way if they try to hunt down all tanks the surviving tank will insure a draw (and by extension a win).


Forgot to add; I'd have a team set up along these lines (keeping in mind Mauses can't fire down and T95s are to slow to move around):
3x Maus
2x T95 (this is the static base defense, more then this and you'd be pressed to find space for them, T95s might go down to 1 as they can be one shotted by arty)
1x Medium (town at water)
1x IS-7 (below A1 hill)
1x T30/E100 (D1 at top of our hill providing fire support on A1)
2x Counter arty (212 for ammo, 261 for accuracy, no German once due to spotting range)
2x Kill their push arty (T92s preferably due to splash but may be used as counter arty as well for nothing else then splash damage will cover a big area for the killing)
3x DPS tanks (T30s most likely but could be French T10, JT and E100 but T30 has best DPS (long term, T10 French is alpha), E100 is relatively soft and JT is low on hp but someone like Spearman can make a JT be very bad thing to go up against) for ridge support). These 3 should be spread out so 1 towards D1 area, one at the little cubby hole Fionn hides under and one over around River road area to provide no dead zones for their medium/light tank to hide under for spotting purposes.

All arty locate above town as in a usual game; DPS tanks provide ridge support to damage the push that will come, static defense stay hidden for as long as possible to not give away what's up there (and hence make their life more difficult on what tactic to use to go up).

DesperateCry

Indeed artilerry at K-line is open to threat as most teams attack through the riverside. Well, maybe we should check if they can be seen by forming two side battle ourselves.

Actually, we should do that to work out defence scenarios, you can't knwo they could attack from the north, too.

Nody

DesperateCry wrote: »

Indeed artilerry at K-line is open to threat as most teams attack through the riverside. Well, maybe we should check if they can be seen by forming two side battle ourselves.

Actually, we should do that to work out defence scenarios, you can't knwo they could attack from the north, too.

I'd not look at splitting the force in two; it means you're likely to fight outgunned because they will focus on one side (with arty support) and you don't and are outgunned for it(which is why I don't understand the teams who do 2/3 IS-7 push on river, 4 going top ridge as it only dilutes fire power allowing you to kill off tanks faster).

This is also why I'd go with a compact tactic as per above with only two tanks out as eyes with ridge support; if they push they'll go up against all tanks (minus the two scouts). I'd even consider switching one of the T95s for another medium/French light to scoot out once they are commited to go hide somewhere (not at river as it's a dead end but A1 hill area perhaps) as back up for a draw (as we've seen it work against us at least 3 times...).

zil

Just on my way out of the house so don't have time to read all the text but judging from the diagram we would be very vulnerable to them bringing an arty up to the a1 area, they'd be able to lob shells down on our mauses no bother then and we'd get whittled away.

ZZR1100

cant say i like it fionn. the 2 is7s wont get their tracks wet before they are dead if they come river rush. if they go north, our 2 is7s are stuck down at the river.
we are then left as a defensive team which will fail.

we have played el halluf long enough now to know what works and what dosnt.

What definatly dosnt work.

1. river rush from base 1
2. maus or similar down the switch back . they just go around him as we do
3. camp at base. they arty us to death.
4 center rush. they hit us from the back with their push
5. double push from both sides.
6. allowing their arty to push north

So they best defense of el halluf imo is noting new or experimental. we did it already in the semi last night. just a few tweaks needed.

maus behind mosqe. destroy buildings around cap.
kac in E100 goes to his special rock
2 more maus further back
sionnac (med) goes to A3 fast and checks if they are coming that way. after our is7s are past, he rushes back to our base and covers north of town to stop any scout that gets through and lights up our cap from the back of town for our arty if the maus dies.
3 arty north.

6 is7s rush north and turn towards their base at E2 heading for the ramp. 3 go to ramp. 3 turn right and fire back at their river rush.
if there are 7 or more is7s pushing we push our is7s quickly onto their cap with 2 arty hunting
1 is7 at E2 supporting. he also covers our arty from scout.
Arty to concentrate fully on de capping our base. (even if their arty is lit up, stay focused on our cap) our is7s will take care of their arty

They have 3 main options.
river rush, center rush, north rush

we know the above tactic works against river rush as we stopped an 8 is7 push last night.

If they center push. we can take them out from under the rocks a their base.

if they make a north push. we will run straight into them with our push. in this senario, we have the advantage as they will be strung out and we are coming at them from the side. the tactic would be to basicly ram them and slug it out. both sides will be under arty fire. we also have an is7 firing from the ridge.
even if we lose the slug fest. what they have left will be too weak to be any treat to our base defense.

bruff to call the shots on any of their team that comes on to our cap. (just cause he is good at it).

Here is the replay from last night for those who werent present. there are a few mistakes such as is7s not pushing over ridge together and the various tweaks are listed above.
https://rapidshare.com/files/2086501847/20120207_2142_ussr-IS-7_el_hallouf.wotreplay

DesperateCry

Nody wrote: »

I'd not look at splitting the force in two; it means you're likely to fight outgunned because they will focus on one side (with arty support) and you don't and are outgunned for it(which is why I don't understand the teams who do 2/3 IS-7 push on river, 4 going top ridge as it only dilutes fire power allowing you to kill off tanks faster).

This is also why I'd go with a compact tactic as per above with only two tanks out as eyes with ridge support; if they push they'll go up against all tanks (minus the two scouts). I'd even consider switching one of the T95s for another medium/French light to scoot out once they are commited to go hide somewhere (not at river as it's a dead end but A1 hill area perhaps) as back up for a draw (as we've seen it work against us at least 3 times...).

Sorry, I did not mean splitting the team in two. We should get a team training battle, position our artillery and put some t10 tanks, t9 mediums on the other side with binoculars and see if they can see the artillery from where...reposition and find spots and so on.

We can find no-arty zones this way, too, we'll need them.

Nody

DesperateCry wrote: »

We can find no-arty zones this way, too, we'll need them.

Only no arty zone is once their arties are dead; if not every spot on the map can be hit from the right location.

DesperateCry

There are only certain places an arty can move to if we do not let it go wherever one wants.

There may be at least one place here unless enemy arty comes to C1. We also do send a medium to A1-2 to see if anything is there. Maybe we shout put the defence on D1 to spot any incoming vehicle there.

Of course, most of enemy arty will be on 8-9-0 spots, maybe on A 3-4so we should get the blind spots for those. In many battles i did hit enemy who thinks they are safe.

Well, I can not be sure unless we try....

Dublin_Gunner

The more Maus we have available for defence the better.

2 x T95 in around mosque / rock.

I would still send a Maus to the switch back road - if they go around it, at least we know we have them funneled to the 1 route.

Its all about forcing the enemy to go where you want them to go - this does mean covering all our bases (pardon the pun).

We need 2 tanks north (2xIS7 possibly).

Medium to river.

3 Arty. (2 specifically for counter arty for at least the first 5 minutes).

Here is what I'd consider:


The Maus' and T95 in around the Mosque area are there for obvious reasons, as is the medium in the river town.

IS7's north are for spotting, and stop / alert us to any north push.

The IS7 at F2 is for spotting any middle rush, and cover for arty.

IS7 at D1 is not only to support any possible northern defence, but will also be our hiding tank should we need it.

Maus at switch back is there to block that road. IF they decide to go around, it can be pulled back, but at least it helps us force them up to where our other Maus and T95's are. The IS7 above him is to spot tanks coming up the other side, and should help slow them a little to reposition the Maus that's there.

The T92 at E1 is there to splash as many tanks going to river and G/H4 push.

The 2 other arty are to play counter arty for at least the first 5 minutes if possible, but also provide defensive support.

If its a case they do go for a G/H4 push, all arty is to move north, and provide fire for defensive purposes. The 3 IS7's north of them will clear their route.

The idea would not be to push for a win, but to frustrate the opposition to a draw.

If needs be, the IS7 at D1 area can be recalled for base defence, the other 2 IS7's at A1/2 are to push on should we realise they are trying to push up to our base.

Dathi Horizon

the best defence in El halluf is an offensive attack. I'd say if we're south we should do our usual north rush to B6. or atleast have 4 IS-7s do the rush and increase our base defence.

Dublin_Gunner

Dathi Horizon wrote: »

the best defence in El halluf is an offensive attack. I'd say if we're south we should do our usual north rush to B6.

While in general on El Halluf, I'd agree. The situation is different for defending land owners.

Rushing across to B6 leaves you far to open to attack, and leaves your defence short if you commit enough for a successful attack.

ZZR1100

defending in el haluf fails every time dub. we are usually delighted to see the enemy camping.
this is what i see happening following that plan.
(shows both a north push or a river push)
they will mop up anything we have in the north or center. move their arty and pound us to death.
did you look at the replay i posted?

Dublin_Gunner

ZZR1100 wrote: »

defending in el haluf fails every time dub. we are usually delighted to see the enemy camping.
this is what i see happening following that plan.
(shows both a north push or a river push)
they will mop up anything we have in the north or center. move their arty and pound us to death.
did you look at the replay i posted?

But this isn't a random CW match Frag.

The opposition are GUARANTEED to attack.

Look at what happened to OAP last night when they tried what you're all proposing? They failed miserably, as they had nowhere near enough tanks for defence, after commiting enough for a viable attack.

Defending in numbers, and spreading out with a few feeler tanks has a far greater chance of getting a draw than trying an all out attack against what could be a very capable team.

Attack is just too risky, and completely depends on the opponent.

We should be concentrating on defending PROPERLY, not just sitting there waiting to be pounded.

ZZR1100

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

But this isn't a random CW match Frag.

The opposition are GUARANTEED to attack.

Look at what happened to OAP last night when they tried what you're all proposing? They failed miserably, as they had nowhere near enough tanks for defence, after commiting enough for a viable attack.

Defending in numbers, and spreading out with a few feeler tanks has a far greater chance of getting a draw than trying an all out attack against what could be a very capable team.

Attack is just too risky, and completely depends on the opponent.

We should be concentrating on defending PROPERLY, not just sitting there waiting to be pounded.

they failed because they sent a maus to the switchback.
they defended with a few T30s
their arty was just behind the town and was running away for the rest of the match.
they stopped their attack on our base and stayed under the hill. if u look a that replay. they had 5 is7s on our base.

im not sure how you defend properly when there is arty hiting you from 3 sides. i can see your point though that we might be able to hold out for a draw if their arty dosnt wipe us out in time. perhaps a training battle with a full team defending and a few spotters + arty on the other side

Nody

I'll repeat myself but the number one priority has to be enemy arty for all our arty at the start. Ignore supporting/blunting their push if their arty dies then it's gg no matter how they try to push because our arty can kill what ever pokes up around a corner.

Tebessa defence falls due to arty; no arty and you can sit there all night long playing peekaboo to the time is out.

Dublin_Gunner

ZZR1100 wrote: »

they failed because they sent a maus to the switchback.
they defended with a few T30s
their arty was just behind the town and was running away for the rest of the match.
they stopped their attack on our base and stayed under the hill. if u look a that replay. they had 5 is7s on our base.

im not sure how you defend properly when there is arty hiting you from 3 sides. i can see your point though that we might be able to hold out for a draw if their arty dosnt wipe us out in time. perhaps a training battle with a full team defending and a few spotters + arty on the other side

The Maus on switchback had nothing to do with why they failed. In fact, the Maus did exactly what is was supposed to do, and force us around.

T30's for defence is immediate fail IMO.

Their arty was running away because we got up the hill too easily - they committed WAY too much to an attack across the middle, and left themselves open.

They had 5 IS7's on our base that never had a chance in hell of providing anything but a distraction for us. We had more than enough to cope with that at our base, as well as arty helping when shots were on.

The only thing I'd change with regard to the tactic I posted would be too maybe run all the IS7's together north, but I would not be changing ANY of the other defending tanks.

The last thing we need to rely on is a capping race, especially attacking the north base where it's much more difficult to get up that hill.

Dan - as per the tactics I posted, our arty is to provide counter arty for the first 5 minutes at least.

Getting a spotter up to their base would be an exercise in futility, so counter arty really is the only viable alternative.

Fionn Mc Coule

Good to see so many replies, but fact is we need to have a definite plan before tonight

Fionn Mc Coule

Nody wrote: »

I'll repeat myself but the number one priority has to be enemy arty for all our arty at the start. Ignore supporting/blunting their push if their arty dies then it's gg no matter how they try to push because our arty can kill what ever pokes up around a corner.

Tebessa defence falls due to arty; no arty and you can sit there all night long playing peekaboo to the time is out.

I agree with you on this, so what about something like this;



On switchback you could have 1 T95 or maus and have 1 extra fast firing arty positioned between 2 + 3 .

Dublin_Gunner

Fionn Mc Coule wrote: »

I agree with you on this

I'd agree to, but I'd agree on ANY map that its important.

ZZR1100

Fionn Mc Coule wrote: »

Good to see so many replies, but fact is we need to have a definite plan before tonight

yes it is and the more ideas put forward, the better. who ever is doing BC can then decided on which tactic he is most comfortable with and run with it for better or worse. win or lose this is constructive.
i really miss a dedicated tactics forum though where we could see the various tactics we use and highlight the ones that win/lose. this thread will be lost on page 2 in a week.
sometimes we forget what failed the week before and run it again.
each tactic submitted should also be accompanied by a replay after it is used to figure out the faults.
i know i keep harping on about using replays, but its really a great tool to review the battle and learn from it.

Dublin_Gunner

Ok, here is what I've personally decided on



Tactic remains as per my previous post, apart from the IS7's.

5 IS7's will head north, and then across to the B6 region, with 1 breaking off to A2.

They are to take the B6 hill, and merely spot for arty, until the order is given to advance, in 1 group, up the hill. Hopefully, the IS7 at A1 will have been able to make its way across to support the push.

This push is merely to divert the opposing forces from a full on attack (hence why there's only 4 heading straight there). It is to cause confusion, and delay.

Staying alive for as long as possible, on the lower part of the hill where arty cannot get them is imperative, so group fire from all 4 tanks will have to be co-ordinated to ensure they quickly defeat any enemy they encounter - even if 1 by one.

They have a secondary role of being able to fire back across the map at any attacking forces.

The main thing here is that we don't leave our base defence short. When the IS7's engage, it might be the time to get the medium up the slope - hopefully if they have a tank defending there, it will have been spotted and taken out by our arty. This is very important so we have a route for the medium to get to their arty.

If we find the north is clear, at least 1 arty is to get as far north as is safe, to provide an attacking threat on enemy base defence, but also have good vision on hitting our own cap should it be required.

A1Nutboy

How did it go last night? (Not a sarcastic comment) I know we won 1 and lost 2. Did we win this one? I was in a game that got thrown last night so did not actually "see" and action.

Do we have the ability to field a team of 15 IS7's? I know its not very tactical but a concerted push by 10 IS7's in one spot would surely get through. 5 left for defense/mopping up/distracting

ZZR1100

A1Nutboy wrote: »

How did it go last night? (Not a sarcastic comment) I know we won 1 and lost 2. Did we win this one? I was in a game that got thrown last night so did not actually "see" and action.

Do we have the ability to field a team of 15 IS7's? I know its not very tactical but a concerted push by 10 IS7's in one spot would surely get through. 5 left for defense/mopping up/distracting

not well. the enemy did a full push all along our base.
sionnach was to go to center, but had to change his mind when he saw what was coming against him.
the is7s had to stop at C1 because their IS7s were already at the corner. when they had our base locked up they moved their arty and brought over their defenders (T30s ?? )
from then on they just spotted took us out 1 by 1.

we had 2 close matches in sand river and 1 one lost 1.

WuuZii

ZZR1100 wrote: »

not well. the enemy did a full push all along our base.
sionnach was to go to center, but had to change his mind when he saw what was coming against him.
the is7s had to stop at C1 because their IS7s were already at the corner. when they had our base locked up they moved their arty and brought over their defenders (T30s ?? )
from then on they just spotted took us out 1 by 1.

we had 2 close matches in sand river and 1 one lost 1.

Sionnach wasn't listening on TS when he was being told to go center so defaulted to north push.

IC did what we have done many times to many defensive teams, you spread your spots and let arty do the talking.

ZZR1100

WuuZii wrote: »

Sionnach wasn't listening on TS when he was being told to go center so defaulted to north push.

IC did what we have done many times to many defensive teams, you spread your spots and let arty do the talking.

didnt know that. he was beside me and i assumed he kept going north when he saw the push coming. he was dead if he went center anyway.

dub put forward the tactics and they failed, but so what. he made the effort to draw them up originally and stepped up to do BC. if no1 did this , there would be no plan.

next up def plan for sand river , any1 ?

WuuZii

ZZR1100 wrote: »

next up def plan for sand river , any1 ?

Attack!

But stick a couple T30's or E-100's in that cubby hole. If nothing comes that way they can swing out and over the ridge. If something does, well hull down situation, half our arty concentrates on supporting them the other half helps the IS-7 push. Depending on which way we attack though!

ZZR1100

WuuZii wrote: »

Attack!

But stick a couple T30's or E-100's in that cubby hole. If nothing comes that way they can swing out and over the ridge. If something does, well hull down situation, half our arty concentrates on supporting them the other half helps the IS-7 push. Depending on which way we attack though!

sand river is diferant than el haluf as you can defend, but you have to do it away from your base.
i dont like the cubby hole idea as we bypassed it easily in the second battle last night. (the first game we made a mistake of trying to kill the 2 tanks in there)

we definatly need a fast scout ( Bat preferable but t-50-2 will do).
no medium need

tbh im not sure of the best plan on this1 , but we came up against a clan a few nights ago (landing battle) and they put 6 is7s on the dune to the north. they secured the south and moved arty as far left as was nessesary to hit the dune on the other side of their IS7s. this actually happend to us twice. our IS7 were torn appart
they used their bat to confirm where we were going before doing this i presume.

whats guarenteed though is they will push hard one side, so we need to figure out the best place to position our tanks to the west as well. if they push hard on the west, our IS7s can easily get back to base or the ridge

Fionn Mc Coule

ZZR1100 wrote: »

next up def plan for sand river , any1 ?

Not for me, last few i suggested were not good enough so ill keep out, as for tabessa defense last night as far as im concerned dub made the call that we were going to use his tactic, then as the battle started he handed the BC over to Bruffio cause he couldnt talk. Now how can bruff call a tactic off the cuff that was thought up by someone else when he was told what to do for 1 specific scenario which was what we would do . As i said a defense tactic needs to be thought out 1st for the number of senarios , eg; the ways the enemy will attack. I heard all these comments defense doesn't work, to me that is silly, of course it works same as attack works the only difference is both only work when they have been thought out, and tried out. The enemy are going to attack us for gods sake, that is plain and simple so what we needed to do was prepare for that attack, how the hell can you def an attack by sending 5 or 6 tanks to i area where they all get stuck in 1 place where they are of no use, in my tactic i had tanks on the K line, if we had even 1 there last night we wouldn't have had that is7 spotting for as long as he was.

I could go on and on fact is
People didn't listen AGAIN
dubs tactic was used even though the person who created it couldn't talk and give orders as to what to do like alternate things that might be needed

Dublin_Gunner

Fionn Mc Coule wrote: »

Not for me, last few i suggested were not good enough so ill keep out, as for tabessa defense last night as far as im concerned dub made the call that we were going to use his tactic, then as the battle started he handed the BC over to Bruffio cause he couldnt talk. Now how can bruff call a tactic off the cuff that was thought up by someone else when he was told what to do for 1 specific scenario which was what we would do . As i said a defense tactic needs to be thought out 1st for the number of senarios , eg; the ways the enemy will attack. I heard all these comments defense doesn't work, to me that is silly, of course it works same as attack works the only difference is both only work when they have been thought out, and tried out. The enemy are going to attack us for gods sake, that is plain and simple so what we needed to do was prepare for that attack, how the hell can you def an attack by sending 5 or 6 tanks to i area where they all get stuck in 1 place where they are of no use, in my tactic i had tanks on the K line, if we had even 1 there last night we wouldn't have had that is7 spotting for as long as he was.

I could go on and on fact is
People didn't listen AGAIN
dubs tactic was used even though the person who created it couldn't talk and give orders as to what to do like alternate things that might be needed

While I'll apologise for the slight confusion - the tactic was posted here for all to see.

However, noone was willing to make any sort of call, so I decided to stick with what I'd drawn up on paper. Right or wrong, someone needed to do it, so it may as well have been me, even though during the battle I was effectively mute.

I'll be honest, it failed. But, I must say, we may not be giving IC enough credit. It would have been very difficult to have any tactic devised to counter their 'push the entire map' tactic.

Maybe, we should have kept the IS7's moving, maybe we should have blocked the switch back (where they got 3 tanks up I might add...), maybe we should have thrown caution to the wind and did an all out assault.

These are all questions that are very difficult to give a right or wrong answer.