Possible El Halluf def tactic

ZZR1100

Fionn Mc Coule wrote: »

Not for me, last few i suggested were not good enough so ill keep out,

I heard all these comments defense doesn't work, to me that is silly, of course it works same as attack works the only difference is both only work when they have been thought out, and tried out. The enemy are going to attack us for gods sake, that is plain and simple so what we needed to do was prepare for that attack, how the hell can you def an attack by sending 5 or 6 tanks to i area where they all get stuck in 1 place where they are of no use, in my tactic i had tanks on the K line, if we had even 1 there last night we wouldn't have had that is7 spotting for as long as he was.

No one said your tactics were not good enough. you put in the effort and proposed a tactic. every1 who does this should be commended and of course others will see flaws in everybody elses tactic. this dosnt mean they are correct either. if nobody submits ideas, we have no tactics at all.

im going to stand by my assersion though that you cant successfully defend el haluf from base.

going by what happend last night and using your tactic (defense) our 2 Is7s would not have made A3 and would be dead anyway if they had. our med would also die in the middle early.
the 2 T95s probably wouldnt have enough speed to reach the switchback and if they did they would have been bypased and taken out from behind.
this then leaves us in a similar position as to last night. slow death from above

WuuZii

Fionn Mc Coule wrote: »

Not for me, last few i suggested were not good enough so ill keep out, as for tabessa defense last night as far as im concerned dub made the call that we were going to use his tactic, then as the battle started he handed the BC over to Bruffio cause he couldnt talk. Now how can bruff call a tactic off the cuff that was thought up by someone else when he was told what to do for 1 specific scenario which was what we would do . As i said a defense tactic needs to be thought out 1st for the number of senarios , eg; the ways the enemy will attack. I heard all these comments defense doesn't work, to me that is silly, of course it works same as attack works the only difference is both only work when they have been thought out, and tried out. The enemy are going to attack us for gods sake, that is plain and simple so what we needed to do was prepare for that attack, how the hell can you def an attack by sending 5 or 6 tanks to i area where they all get stuck in 1 place where they are of no use, in my tactic i had tanks on the K line, if we had even 1 there last night we wouldn't have had that is7 spotting for as long as he was.

I could go on and on fact is
People didn't listen AGAIN
dubs tactic was used even though the person who created it couldn't talk and give orders as to what to do like alternate things that might be needed

Defense does not work on El Halluf, we were put on the back foot very early and lost control of the map allowing arty to move where it pleased. If the IS-7's get under the hill they can just sit there and spot with impunity which is exactly what IC did and what we should have done is not parked up north. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

Sand River however is very different but again you cannot just sit back in your own cap and allow a team to control the map. If they do that they can move arty pieces all over the map and whittle you down. A T-50-2 or even a Bat**** down the road on the right, below the dune, very early with orders to not engage but to spot and gtfo or push on to create havoc depending on what was seen. A Bat**** and Sionnachs Patton for cover could cause untold mayhem, confusion and panic in any attacker/defender.
We tend to use the medium as a holding tank with no real chance of survival. Wielding it as an offensive tool, as it should be, might be a better idea. Send 1 IS-7 to the dune behind the Patton/Bat****/T-50-2 if we decide to push the other way. He could hold it better and provide covering/flanking fire for a push by the mediums.

ZZR1100

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

I'll be honest, it failed. But, I must say, we may not be giving IC enough credit. It would have been very difficult to have any tactic devised to counter their 'push the entire map' tactic.

Maybe, we should have kept the IS7's moving, maybe we should have blocked the switch back (where they got 3 tanks up I might add...), maybe we should have thrown caution to the wind and did an all out assault.

These are all questions that are very difficult to give a right or wrong answer.

If we had used our normal tactic and sent the 5 or 6 IS7s north and turned towards their base at E2 (as normal) instead of 4 to C1, we would have met 3 IS7s in the center. when these are dead , we continue as normal and have shots back at the 2 in the middle. now we have at least 4 IS7s under their base.

this achieves 2 things.
1. it stops the remainder of their team coming over from defense. the T30s in this case.
2. it forces their attackers to push over and engage rather than spotting.

we can then push over into their base and keep their arty busy and go for cap ourselves. we have plenty healty tanks + arty in our base to hold them off.

this tactic of course could fail miserably too and we are are back to the drawing board:)

Nody

My only question is what happened with the counter arty? They can spot and view the whole map all night as long if their arties died at the start...

ZZR1100

Nody wrote: »

My only question is what happened with the counter arty? They can spot and view the whole map all night as long if their arties died at the start...

you would have to ask one of the arty players, but my guess is, any good arty player is moving the second he clicks fire (not waiting for the shot to land) and as a result, counter arty is ineffective

Fionn Mc Coule

ZZR1100 wrote: »

going by what happend last night and using your tactic (defense) our 2 Is7s would not have made A3 and would be dead anyway if they had.

Not really, they could have stopped at where the t95 is marked north, we would have had 2 is7's and 1 t95 defending north instead of 5 is7's

ZZR1100 wrote: »

our med would also die in the middle early.

No, once he see's the push instead of going down he could have went down to K line and stay hid to counter the likes of the is7 that did get up and got all the spots

ZZR1100 wrote: »

the 2 T95s probably wouldnt have enough speed to reach the switchback and if they did they would have been bypased and taken out from behind.

and again not really they could have stopped at the positions that our 2 e100's took in the battle and had their backs covered by the 2 maus in the base

ZZR1100 wrote: »

If we had used our normal tactic and sent the 5 or 6 IS7s north and turned towards their base at E2 (as normal) instead of 4 to C1, we would have met 3 IS7s in the center. when these are dead , we continue as normal and have shots back at the 2 in the middle. now we have at least 4 IS7s under their base.

this achieves 2 things.
1. it stops the remainder of their team coming over from defense. the T30s in this case.
2. it forces their attackers to push over and engage rather than spotting.

we can then push over into their base and keep their arty busy and go for cap ourselves. we have plenty healty tanks + arty in our base to hold them off.

this tactic of course could fail miserably too and we are are back to the drawing board:)

I agree with you here but you are relying on our 5 staying alive in the head on dog fight in the middle, thats not going to happen, you would be lucky to have 2 - 3 survive.
If they have 3 arty we should only have our arty watching an area at enemy base and countering, ONLY

3 def north 3 def switchback rest in spread out in base def will stop them everywhere from pushing, our arty counters , even if 3 enemy arty get off 3 shots before we counter them so what we would have had arty gone and then they need to come, thats where mass def will hammer any attack

Fionn Mc Coule

WuuZii wrote: »

Defense does not work on El Halluf, we were put on the back foot very early and lost control of the map allowing arty to move where it pleased. If the IS-7's get under the hill they can just sit there and spot with impunity which is exactly what IC did and what we should have done is not parked up north. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

No, Def can work, saying it doesn't is wrong, and too negative, a good tactic played properly can work def or att. it needs people to give it a try and do it properly. we ended up on back foot because we had too few on base def and 5 is7's sitting ducks up north with no alternative plan sorted, we had arty shooting at tanks instead of countering their arty from start

DesperateCry

Artillery; as far as I saw, we were busy not to be seen and/or killed by those is-7. We were not successfull though. If i remember right none of us were killed by artillery but an is-7. We were trapped in so little spot I was trying to find a place where i can not be seen by an is-7.

I myself were trying to hit those 3 is-7 from south. Others were killed early as they were on the south. As they were facing towards the other side I am guessing they were looking for enemy artillery, but they could not stay in game much.

Nody

DesperateCry wrote: »

Artillery; as far as I saw, we were busy not to be seen and/or killed by those is-7. We were not successfull though. If i remember right none of us were killed by artillery but an is-7. We were trapped in so little spot I was trying to find a place where i can not be seen by an is-7.

I myself were trying to hit those 3 is-7 from south. Others were killed early as they were on the south. As they were facing towards the other side I am guessing they were looking for enemy artillery, but they could not stay in game much.

Thank you Desperate. I want to make it clear I'm not blaming arty or anyone else but I want to understand what/were all the arty players aimed to be able to adjust future tactics accordingly (as Tebessa is a pet map of mine).

ZZR1100

Fionn Mc Coule wrote: »

Not really, they could have stopped at where the t95 is marked north, we would have had 2 is7's and 1 t95 defending north instead of 5 is7's


No, once he see's the push instead of going down he could have went down to K line and stay hid to counter the likes of the is7 that did get up and got all the spots


and again not really they could have stopped at the positions that our 2 e100's took in the battle and had their backs covered by the 2 maus in the base







3 def north 3 def switchback rest in spread out in base def will stop them everywhere from pushing, our arty counters , even if 3 enemy arty get off 3 shots before we counter them so what we would have had arty gone and then they need to come, thats where mass def will hammer any attack

Yes i agree. all those moves would have been possible. but you certainly wont be able to stop the enemy getting spots, moving their arty wherever they want and hitting us from 3 sides with arty for 10 min.
i dont think (could be wrong) that counter arty would be effective as their arty are not even in the usual spots at this stage.

definatly worth doing training battles with as many arty pieces on both sides as possible to see how effective counter arty can be, as a defensive tactic like yours depends on killing their arty before they do too much damage

Dathi Horizon

Nody wrote: »

My only question is what happened with the counter arty? They can spot and view the whole map all night as long if their arties died at the start...

A defensive plan + arty doesnt work well, throughout that fight i tried aiming left right and center but couldnt get any shots. With there IS-7's pushing every direction it didnt leave much space for arty to move around with.

Btw 2 or 3 times i did look out for there arty but trying not to get spoted while trying to help with base defence didnt work so well.

Edit: I thought we established that you cannot defend in el halluf from previous clan battles? Ive never seen it work.

WuuZii

Dathi Horizon wrote: »

Edit: I thought we established that you cannot defend in el halluf from previous clan battles? Ive never seen it work.

You can, you just need to defend from the other side of the map. IE do what they did to us.

15 tanks sitting around our base trying to defend is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. We had great winning tactics for El Halluf but this stupid draw is all we need mentality got in somehow. **** that noise seriously. Play to win or don't ****ing play!

Nody

Right, slight change in tactics, we'll need a French T9 medium if we're starting on base 2 going forward to scout the A3 hills. Bruffio showed that it was as fast as a T2/T5 light in the race (before everyone ganged up on him and blew him up to lots of laughter :P )

ZZR1100

we also did a counter arty training room.(2vs2) we spent 10 minutes firing at each other after giving our grid ref.
1 died as a result of moving backwards instead of forward+left or right after firing.
result imo is counter arty is a waste of time.

Nody

ZZR1100 wrote: »

we also did a counter arty training room.(2vs2) we spent 10 minutes firing at each other after giving our grid ref.
1 died as a result of moving backwards instead of forward+left or right after firing.
result imo is counter arty is a waste of time.

Yet we consistently lose arty to it in pretty much every game...

ZZR1100

Nody wrote: »

Yet we consistently lose arty to it in pretty much every game...

Well, the only thing you can conclude from that is that our arty isnt moving, or waiting for the shot to land before moving or just moving forward/backwards.

i had 2 arty firing at my known grid ref (bruff died early by moving backwards) for 10 min without getting a scratch. they were firing at my tracers and even firing in front of my tracers trying to anticipate my move.
i think the main mistake arty players make is firing the shot and watching the target until the shell lands and then moving. this 2 second delay in moving is all the enemy need to counter. you should be moving the second you click fire without leaving arty mode.

Aenaes

You can still watch the shot land by leaving your view in sniper mode and moving at the same time.

ALL arty movements should be forward/reverse + left/right after firing.

Dublin_Gunner

Aenaes wrote: »

You can still watch the shot land by leaving your view in sniper mode and moving at the same time.

ALL arty movements should be forward/reverse + left/right after firing.

This is how I usually do it.

I always like to see if my shot land, so I know if I've inflicted any damage or not.

Always move, always. Zoom in, fire, and move straight away.

DesperateCry

I really do not recommend moving reverse as TypE, I still got killed this way, it's not fast enough

Edit: Anti-arty does need patience, and you really should seperate yourself from rest of....well anything else. I am still going for it in my Hummel, ignoring help cries of my teammates and insults . And it does change a lot depending on what side you are on and the map. Sand River, you can check A line for enemy artillery if you are on south, or base, pretty close to eachother. Though if you are on north, you have a wider area to search. It's even harder at El-Halluf, there are artillery areas, not spots, though north side artillery is more likely to be found.

Best artillery for it? One that makes lowest arc from the ground. Reload time, splash damage etc does not effect much, but your bullet's travel time does.

zh1

Best counter arty I'd say would be the panther. Its shells are big enough 1 shot other arty, reloads fast, GREAT accuracy and if its needed can still inflict a lot of damage on normal tanks.

Dublin_Gunner

zh1 wrote: »

Best counter arty I'd say would be the panther. Its shells are big enough 1 shot other arty, reloads fast, GREAT accuracy and if its needed can still inflict a lot of damage on normal tanks.

Yeah, been considering buying one back TBH. Great machine.

Karma

zh1 wrote: »

Best counter arty I'd say would be the panther. Its shells are big enough 1 shot other arty, reloads fast, GREAT accuracy and if its needed can still inflict a lot of damage on normal tanks.

i have one and i can counter arty -use the spacebar for fire and forget fast enough as well.
but what about this full zoom out mod for arty? that does sound awesome.
ps greetings from cape verde :P Back on thursday.