Andy Lee v Chavez Jnr ... who wins?

H. Flashman

There is alot of talk about this match up being made. How do you see it going?

cowzerp

Chavez JR, Lee is just not very good and failed to live up to his potential.

barney4001

Has to be Chavez

Spazdarn

Don't see much from Chavez that'd worry him too much. Andy keeps him at distance and he'd beat him easily.

walshb

Lee has a good chance. Chavez is nothing special.

barney4001

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Don't see much from Chavez that'd worry him him too much. Andy keeps him at distance and he'd beat him easily.

He beat Duddy handily enough i cannot see lee giving him any problems

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Lee has a good chance. Chavez is nothing special.

No one said he was but Lee is average at best, and 1 dimensional-tries to copy the Klitschkos but does it badly

duagre

I would give Lee a very good shot against any of the belt holders other than Martinez. I would pick him to beat Chavez or Sturm. And I rate Chavez a lot higher than most.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

No one said he was but Lee is average at best, and 1 dimensional-tries to copy the Klitschkos but does it badly

Lee has his flaws, and against a good champion I think he loses. Against Chavez, I think it's 50/50.

Separately: Sturm? Well, he to me is one of the weakest MW champs ever. How he is a champion is a sad refelction on standards. Lee also has a 50/50 shot there.

barney4001

walshb wrote: »

Lee has his flaws, and against a good champion I think he loses. Against Chavez, I think it's 50/50.

Separately: Sturm? Well, he to me is one of the weakest MW champs ever. How he is a champion is a sad refelction on standards. Lee also has a 50/50 shot there.

Yes Strum would be Lees wisest option

tryingmybestt

i'd pick chavez to beat lee

i don't think lee handles pressure too well

H. Flashman

Sure he beat duddy easy enough but Duddy's moves like he's knee deep in porridge, its movement that really bothers chavez.

I think its a 50/50 fight. Andy would certainly be worth a bet because I can't imagine chavez not being the favourite. Chavez is very ordinary if you ask me, not especially quick, not especially powerful. I mean he basically beat rubio by being 20 pounds heavier and just standing there toe to toe (or should I say forehead to forehead) in the phone booth and exchanging blow for blow all night long. I mean how could a guy who's 20 pounds heavier not win a fight like that? If you ask me Andy is faster and has better one punch power that jnr. If he keeps it on the outside I think he could take him. Andy's problem is he is terrible at handling pressure, always has been, and his stamina is dodgy as hell, so if he lets it turn into a war of attritition chavez will beat him.

dlofnep

Lee would start well, but I think he's sketchy after the 6th round. Starts to fade. Chavez would win..

tryingmybestt

H. Flashman wrote: »

Sure he beat duddy easy enough but Duddy's moves like he's knee deep in porridge, its movement that really bothers chavez.

I think its a 50/50 fight. Andy would certainly be worth a bet because I can't imagine chavez not being the favourite. Chavez is very ordinary if you ask me, not especially quick, not especially powerful. I mean he basically beat rubio by being 20 pounds heavier and just standing there toe to toe (or should I say forehead to forehead) in the phone booth and exchanging blow for blow all night long. I mean how could a guy who's 20 pounds heavier not win a fight like that? If you ask me Andy is faster and has better one punch power that jnr. If he keeps it on the outside I think he could take him. Andy's problem is he is terrible at handling pressure, always has been, and his stamina is dodgy as hell, so if he lets it turn into a war of attritition chavez will beat him.

he wasn't 20 pounds heavier....he was 10 pounds heavier on fight night....181 to 171 lbs

nacho libre

So this is how far down in peoples estimation Lee has gone. I don't think this question would have been posed before the lost to Vera.

Chavez is crap. His record is very misleading because his opponents have been carefully chosen to make him look better than he actually is.
Provided there are no dirty tricks involved, Lee wins this on points.

rebelomar

Lee would seriously need to work on his conditioning for this fight...his stamina is hugely suspect thus far. If he really improves this than I give him a shot. Keep it at range and he can outbox Chavez. Keeping Chavez at range will be very tricky but I feel Lee can do this fitness/stamina permitting. If Chavez gets inside and makes it a war its his fight all night long.

barney4001

I think Vera exposed Lee in first fight, he dos not like getting roughed up so i think Macklin will beat him

walshb

barney4001 wrote: »

I think Vera exposed Lee in first fight, he dos not like getting roughed up so i think Macklin will beat him

I don't think using the Vera fight is a good comparison. It was a few years back and Lee was also giving away 3-4 lbs on the scales at weigh in. Vera was a SMW vs. a MW. Lee took a great shot in the fight, fought his ass off and was stopped on his feet. Lee has improved in all areas since then, and decisively avenged that loss. Yes, the stamina is suspect, but if he can keep it at range he can win.

walshb

BTW, what is Lee at? I mean, where is his career going?

barney4001

walshb wrote: »

BTW, what is Lee at? I mean, where is his career going?

YOU TELL ME I THINK NOWHERE

BiffoGooner

If Andy kept to the outside and just boxed him I think he'd handle Chavez quite comfortably. Where he might get in trouble is letting Chavez inside and trading with him, which is Chavez' game. Although, having said that, Lee is probably the slighter better puncher of the two, so it's hard to say who would prevail if it turned into a slugfest. One thing is for certain, Chavez is not what he's hyped up to be. If Andy went in with the right gameplan I think he'd come away with the win, barring any scorecard robbery of course, which wouldnt surprise me.

makl

Lee 1-6, Chavez Jr 7-12.

Chavez Jr fought at 181 (+21.5lb post weigh in) vs Rubio and is a great body puncher. Lee's for the taking early but body punches would take their toll.

Chavez Jr apparently skipped a urine test post fight. http://www.boxingnews24.com/2012/02/team-rubio-says-chavez-jr-skipped-doping-test-after-fight/

Cowzerp you're fairly knowledgeable on weight gain etc - 21.5lb a bit much in 24hr?

barney4001

makl wrote: »

Lee 1-6, Chavez Jr 7-12.

Chavez Jr fought at 181 (+21.5lb post weigh in) vs Rubio and is a great body puncher. Lee's for the taking early but body punches would take their toll.

Chavez Jr apparently skipped a urine test post fight. http://www.boxingnews24.com/2012/02/team-rubio-says-chavez-jr-skipped-doping-test-after-fight/

Cowzerp you're fairly knowledgeable on weight gain etc - 21.5lb a bit much in 24hr?

HOW ON EARTH COULD ANYONE PUT ON 21 I/2 POUNDS OVERNIGHT

dlofnep

barney4001 wrote: »

HOW ON EARTH COULD ANYONE PUT ON 21 I/2 POUNDS OVERNIGHT

Replenish water, and eat a meal. It's not uncommon to see some put on 25lbs+

walshb

It is hell of a lot. And, most of it liquid. I remember weiging in at 112 lbs on the button for a fight and being 7 lbs heavier (ten hrs later) come the evening. Now, it would be logical to assume that bigger men would gain even more in a 24 hr period. Is it all that helpful to gain that much? I don't know.

Aside: Marathon runners often make the mistake of taking on too much liquids during a race. Ends up sloshing around in the stomach and cramping them. The experts recommend about 500-700 ml per hr of running. Somerunners wer ingesting 1.5-2 litres per hour.

walshb

dlofnep wrote: »

Replenish water, and eat a meal. It's not uncommon to see some put on 25lbs+

Big freaking meal all the same!

cowzerp

makl wrote: »

Cowzerp you're fairly knowledgeable on weight gain etc - 21.5lb a bit much in 24hr?

Thats 9.77kg and a lot of weight to cut, i have done 9kg twice and it's extremely hard and dangerous if you don't do it right-This sort of weight cutting would be easier to more muscled fighters as you carry water in your muscles so have more water to lose than less muscled fighters, it's worth noting that when i donr this my weight before cut would be 70kg so bigger lads would have slightly more potential for cutting more, that .77 extra is actually a lot when your dehydrated/worn out.

Personally i think it's better to cut less but if you rehydrate and fuel up proper after doing a weight cut and are some way accustomed to weight cutting then i think it can be ok, it did not affect me in action either time.

i was used to cutting 5-6kg regularly so it was not knew to me, i have seen fighters cut 2kg and be in a bad way so it really is very individual..

walshb

But, Paul, is it also a case of a fighter not cutting 21.5 lbs, but say cutting 11-12 lbs and then gorging back on 21.5 lbs? That I think is what is being asked. In other words, cutting 10-12 kbs and then heaping a load of water and food into them whereby they are in the ring at a heavy weight.

walshb

To be more precise:

MW Fighter off peak walks around at 172 lbs. Fight approaches, trains, cuts to 160 and 24-30 hrs of loading up later at fight night he is 177/178/179/180?

tryingmybestt

some fighters can handle putting on a lot of weight after weigh in and some fighters can't

fighters that have handled it well are roy jones, ricky hatton etc.

when morales put on 13 pounds in the third barrera fight and barrera only put on 2 pounds, morales was noticeably slower than barrera and in their previous meetings their speed was similar.....chavez did look a little lethargic with the extra weight

freddie roach says chavez's next fight could be at light heavy...skipping SMW

dlofnep

The weight that's cut is only water - I had to cut for Judo before, and it's hell. And that was only 9-10lbs. You can't drink any water, or eat anything for the day. You're completely drained. After weigh in - just sip on water slowly.. Get a good few litres into you before the end of the night, and have a nice tasty meal. Weigh a 2 litre bottle of water, and see how much weight you can put back on

walshb

No matter what it is, it's still weight, and for a finely tuned and in shape athlete, ounces can be tricky to shift, never mind lbs and kilogrammes. The first few lbs may be ok, it's when the boxer is getting ripped and cut, that the last few lbs are tough.

As for Lee. He could well face Chavez in Chavez's next fight. Arum is said to favour either Lee or Margarito for Chavez's next scrap. Providing Arum can side step the winner of Macklin-Martinez next month.

dlofnep

Why do people rate Chavez so poorly? I think he's actually a very capable boxer, and out of Martinez - I don't see any other middleweight beating him at the moment. I think Macklin would give him a scrappy fight.. But middleweight right now isn't as roaring as it could be.

tryingmybestt

dlofnep wrote: »

Why do people rate Chavez so poorly? I think he's actually a very capable boxer, and out of Martinez - I don't see any other middleweight beating him at the moment. I think Macklin would give him a scrappy fight.. But middleweight right now isn't as roaring as it could be.

ppl rate him poorly because they feel he has been protected by giving easy fights to build his record

ppl fail to recognise his lack af amateur experience and therefore the need to learn the ropes as a professional.....chavez senior also had easy fights....as did morales, barrera.......similar situation to scott quigg now

i agree that aprt from martinez who else would beat him....maybe golovkin or pirog would give him a hard time

Spazdarn

Despite his lack of an amateur background, he's had 47 pro fights and he's only started taking on fighters of worth in the last 2 or 3 fights. That's taking the piss a bit.

People give him a hard time because

He's favoured by the WBC, only got the title because Martinez was prematurely stripped of it.

Once he got the belt and became the champion he's refused to fight Martinez., blatantly ducking him.

Martinez, Golovkin, Pirog and probably Proksa beat him.

Andy Lee, Macklin and Barker probably make it a close fight.

He is associated with Bob Arum...

I'd say there are plenty of reasons to dislike the guy

makl

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Despite his lack of an amateur background, he's had 47 pro fights and he's only started taking on fighters of worth in the last 2 or 3 fights. That's taking the piss a bit.

People give him a hard time because

He's favoured by the WBC, only got the title because Martinez was prematurely stripped of it.

Once he got the belt and became the champion he's refused to fight Martinez., blatantly ducking him.

Martinez, Golovkin, Pirog and probably Proksa beat him.

Andy Lee, Macklin and Barker probably make it a close fight.

He is associated with Bob Arum...

I'd say there are plenty of reasons to dislike the guy

...and he failed a drug test in 2009.

Still a good puncher.

tryingmybestt

ppl have disliked chavez since his early days as a professional

they felt he was getting the big build up purely because of who his father is

this dislike has continued right through his professional career

if he's had forty something prefessional fights that doesn't compare to a guy who has had hundreds of amateur fights and then turns professional

most fighters who'd turn professional with no amateur experience would take it very slow as a professional

he's still young and improving with every fight it seems....his opposition quality is improving....i'm sure his team want a few more tough fights before they put him in with a top p4p fighter in martinez......i wouldn't fault them for that

Spazdarn

tryingmybestt wrote: »

ppl have disliked chavez since his early days as a professional

they felt he was getting the big build up purely because of who his father is

this dislike has continued right through his professional career

if he's had forty something prefessional fights that doesn't compare to a guy who has had hundreds of amateur fights and then turns professional

most fighters who'd turn professional with no amateur experience would take it very slow as a professional

he's still young and improving with every fight it seems....his opposition quality is improving....i'm sure his team want a few more tough fights before they put him in with a top p4p fighter in martinez......i wouldn't fault them for that

What's your solution, he fight another 40 tin cans (to make up for his lack of experience) before he man's up and fights his mandatory?

He gets a lot of heat, but he's only started to fight decent opponents, a lot of the heat will go IF he's fighting top class opponents.

Can pretty much guarantee knowing Arum, that his next fight is Margarito. Margarito can't do **** anymore, and a Mexican vs. Mexican that includes Chavez would be huge. It would again drag Chavez away from a legitimate challenge to his title

cowzerp

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Can pretty much guarantee knowing Arum, that his next fight is Margarito. Margarito can't do **** anymore, and a Mexican vs. Mexican that includes Chavez would be huge. It would again drag Chavez away from a legitimate challenge to his title

Actually would be a step up for him and could be worse.

tryingmybestt

ToiletFusion wrote: »

What's your solution, he fight another 40 tin cans (to make up for his lack of experience) before he man's up and fights his mandatory?

He gets a lot of heat, but he's only started to fight decent opponents, a lot of the heat will go IF he's fighting top class opponents.

Can pretty much guarantee knowing Arum, that his next fight is Margarito. Margarito can't do **** anymore, and a Mexican vs. Mexican that includes Chavez would be huge. It would again drag Chavez away from a legitimate challenge to his title

i wouldnt call rubio and margarito tin cans.......they're not elite level but they are world class......

chavez has slowly increased the level of opposition

he's a world champion, improving

rubio was a credible opponent.....rubio beat the hot unbeaten canadian puncher in lemiuex.....rubio also has good power

chavez is heading towards top fights....a couple more fights against top 10 opponents and i'd say he'll be ready for the best

stagolee

Margarito's best days were at welter wearing plaster knuckledusters and they are long gone but lots of people still people know his name.

Lee is a genuine middleweight who has avenged his only loss and has a big name for a guy who has never fought for a title.

The only way Lee will be fighting Chavez is if Margarito suffers an injury.

walshb

Chavez would bust up the over the hill blown up WW/LMW mummy that is Antonio Margarito. If he can't, then Chavez really is poor.

barney4001

LEE CHAVEZ COULD BE ON

http://www.irishcentral.com/sport/Andy-Lee-V-Cesar-Chavez-Jr-match-up-buzz-renewed-139008904.html

minty16

Arum is cancer. I would not want to be taking on any of his fighters. The sooner he is out of boxing the better.