Marilyn Manson, what happened?

Motley Crue

devildriver wrote: »

I have no great fondness or hatred for MM but just listening to that EMA video it's amazing how dated his music sounds now.

It's amazing how dated everything looks about that video, especially Ronan lol

nyarlothothep

Motley Crue wrote: »

It's amazing how dated everything looks about that video, especially Ronan lol

What's so dated about it. Ronan is younger. Manson looks like a Bacchanalian freak, what's so dated about that? As I said if it is dated its preferable to the current zeitgeist. In 1999 we had Manson, now we have Lady Gaga, who is apparently meant to be artistically worthy but all I see is the sex appeal through nudity promotional model combined with music that's commonly played in a night club and some esoteric art/surreal costumes designed to make people think she's a serious artist. Manson has some of those qualities but at least he had some good songs, not disco lite candy floss music with lyrics like ooh raah oh lala. At least he wrote some critical/acerbic lyrics that cut through the hypocrisy/bs primarily of American mainstream culture/society but it could be applied to anywhere else. This is the cultural decline I'm talking about, the 00s, 10s suck. And yes not every decade is created equal, there are peaks and declines.

SilverScreen

nyarlothothep wrote: »

What's so dated about it. Ronan is younger. Manson looks like a Bacchanalian freak, what's so dated about that? As I said if it is dated its preferable to the current zeitgeist. In 1999 we had Manson, now we have Lady Gaga, who is apparently meant to be artistically worthy but all I see is the sex appeal through nudity promotional model combined with music that's commonly played in a night club and some esoteric art/surreal costumes designed to make people think she's a serious artist. Manson has some of those qualities but at least he had some good songs, not disco lite candy floss music with lyrics like ooh raah oh lala. At least he wrote some critical/acerbic lyrics that cut through the hypocrisy/bs primarily of American mainstream culture/society but it could be applied to anywhere else. This is the cultural decline I'm talking about, the 00s, 10s suck. And yes not every decade is created equal, there are peaks and declines.

What cultural decline? You only seem to be referring to mainstream culture here. Who cares what the current 'zeitgeist' is or what is grabbing the headlines, it means absolutely nothing to our lives.

This whole notion that the 00's and 10's suck is complete and utter rubbish. There are no such thing as defined peaks and declines, there's always great music as well as bad music not matter what year or decade, you've just got to know where to look. You have the entire internet in front of you and it shouldn't be too hard to tap into it. If your idea of modern rock and metal is what you see on tv channels such as Kerrang tv and Scuzz then you really need to look elsewhere for great music.

stateofflux

without a doubt there has been a decline in the quality of rock and metal (both underground and mainstream) in the last 15 years. you can't compare the amount of top notch music from 80's/90's to today.it was a golden era with a huge cultural alternative movement behind it. marilyn manson had his day and did some great albums (mechanical animals is still in my top ten), but imo he is a spent force creatively thesedays.

nyarlothothep

Zero1986 wrote: »

What cultural decline? You only seem to be referring to mainstream culture here. Who cares what the current 'zeitgeist' is or what is grabbing the headlines, it means absolutely nothing to our lives.

This whole notion that the 00's and 10's suck is complete and utter rubbish. There are no such thing as defined peaks and declines, there's always great music as well as bad music not matter what year or decade, you've just got to know where to look. You have the entire internet in front of you and it shouldn't be too hard to tap into it. If your idea of modern rock and metal is what you see on tv channels such as Kerrang tv and Scuzz then you really need to look elsewhere for great music.

In relation to your previous post people can listen to whatever they want and just because they invest heavily in select number of genres doesn't mean that they're missing out. They're missing out by your standards but since when are your standards the standard?

Secondly the problem is that we are surrounded by mainstream society and this gives rise to a sense of alienation if you're not in tune with it. This is why you hear people in alt rock circles saying that the 80s sucked for music, and to some extent they're right. It was utterly hostile towards anything left of field. It was the high era of the yuppie, of convention and conservatism. Yes you had bands like the Cure and Metallica but contrast that with the 90s when a lot of music which would be ignored or cast out suddenly made it into the mainstream. Its not that the mainstream is crucial, but its ubiquitous and surrounds you.

And yes there is no such thing as cultural/historical-cultural equality. There is no such thing as equality anywhere in nature. And relativity is just a cop out ie moral relativity might be objectively fine but at the level of local human experience saying that say the act of theft is neither god nor bad simply doesn't fly with 99% of people. So saying that one decade is relative or equal to another based on the abundance of music produced doesn't answer the reality that there are periods of ascension and decline, which have been historically documented eg Roman art experienced a decline. From the 60-90s you have an explosion of creativity, which ran out of steam towards the end of the 90s and then the 00s brought forth this awful scene of skinny jeans wearing bands playing garage retro rock or whatever they want to call it and none of it was original. And it was everywhere. Now I don't even know what's popular anymore. It just seems to be female singers desperately wanting to sound like Kate Bush. I don't care if you find all this objectionable or whatever your response is to it. But its obvious that mainstream culture has become more commercialised, bland and derivative and hostile towards innovative music or music which doesn't conform exactly to its conventions, moreso than previous eras except the 80s.

LH Pathe

I'll always be entrenched in the 80s. Look at today's landscape, rockers have been replaced by scangers wholesale. there really were that amount of general rock fans of all the types of wholly original subgenres emerging with original punk having wiping the slate clean, the profound visible cultural effect on society via musical trends told me all I needed to know. rave/ rap/ disco dumbed society down more than any form of rock music that was previously slandered for it. Gave us townies and a higher instance of degeneracy and criminality and general retardedness across the board to which there is no doubt - the only way I live in the past is musically but it's also what I affiliate myself with visually and at heart. Chav stamp is very much on society today as it has for a long time, as even seen in 'nu' metal to a degree even way back then so much so that it's more 'old' metal now but there was profound cultural shift I witnessed and never lived down.

Banjo

Mm was already in decline with antichrist superstar. Daisy left, and while twiggy is great for cranking out a groove on bass his riffs were a little samey. Lyrically there's no where left to go in shock rock once you've charted your rise as devil incarnate and seduction n corruption of the world. As the grandiosity ratcheted up he became less threatening and more ridiculous. I mean, there's a reason they all took the surnames of serial killers rather than, say bond villains. They ceased to be menacing but didn't have the wit of an Alice Cooper or even GWAR to enjoy make it work.

Then again, maybe I just grew up ?

nyarlothothep

Alice Cooper? What??? I'll give him this, he was pivotal in popularising shock rock. I won't say he started it because I expect some muso to point out that some obscure dude back in the day started shock rock, kinda like the same way you could say Doom was the first definitive fps, the first one that really nailed it genre wise, but then a million and one people will miss the point and say Wolfenstein or some other more obscure game started it all. Sigh. Anyway, Manson was far more visceral than Cooper, plus he was witty too. I don't get this "I grew up, therefore I don't listen to Manson or whatever anymore." By that reasoning you should only like adult orientated pop like George Michael (respect to George Michael). There isn't any should or ought to when it comes to music.

viadah

Musical styles developed and evolved, some artistically, some commercially, you'd be hard pressed to definitively separate the two in the majority of cases in any argument. The development of social and cultural trends against the backdrop of musical genre seems to me to be a tad over the head of what Marilyn Manson is up to these days though.

Jake187

Manson ... >> ... the faith of lady gaga?

seachto7

Was never a fan of MM back in the day, but saw him at the Heineken Jammin Festival in Italy, and he put on a great show, I will say. I think it was the infamous one when he opened his backside to the camera and got banned from Italy!
I think Blur were on before him if I'm not mistaken...

Motley Crue

seachto7 wrote: »

I think Blur were on before him if I'm not mistaken...

They themselves being marketed as poster boys for menace in their genre, when they originally debuted, all this stuff about not being able to trust them in your Country House....against the toffee noses etc...

poundhound

I thought Manson was fantastic supporting Maiden in the RDS in 2005.

His problem is the quality of his music declined alarmingly in recent years.

Kerrang used to label him the "God of f@#k" but a dismal review of his last album was actually titled "God of [EMAIL="f@#k"]f@#k[/EMAIL] all!"

Mental Mickey

poundhound wrote: »

I thought Manson was fantastic supporting Maiden in the RDS in 2005.

His problem is the quality of his music declined alarmingly in recent years.

Kerrang used to label him the "God of f@#k" but a dismal review of his last album was actually titled "God of [EMAIL="f@#k"]f@#k[/EMAIL] all!"

Kerrang is a rag.

Chavez

He got old and tired. Also, more than likely, stupid. With all his love-life issues and everything that has come out of him lately, it's hard not to think he's an idiot these days.