€14.56m Spent so far (Not including basic wages) on policing 'Shell to Sea'

oscarBravo

20Cent wrote: »

Was he asked to show id can't hear it. Also that might take more than a few seconds to get his wallet or wherever he keeps it. They give him no time to respond before forcing the window then smashing it. Since when does hesitating to respond to a garda allow them to respond with violence.

He was inside a car with the window and door closed. How could he be a threat to them. Even when the door was opened they straight away threaten him with pepper spray!

And now we come back to the use of Occam's Razor that Hayte objected so strongly to earlier.

In one narrative, the jackbooted thug cops are lying in wait for an innocent victim who's so terrified of the oppressive forces of the police state he leaves a camera running in his car to protect himself from their evil clutches. When stopped by the cops, he's so [deaf|scared|hesitant] (delete as appropriate) that he doesn't respond within microseconds to the questions which he may or may not have been asked. He fumbles (or not) for his ID (which he may or may not have been asked for) for two or three seconds, during which time his window has been smashed in and he has been dragged off to the gulags.

In the other, a driver arrives at a checkpoint. He is asked where he's going (a question I've been asked at roughly half the Garda checkpoints I've ever been stopped at, as well as some PSNI ones), to which he shouts a smart-ass answer through a door he refuses to open. He refuses to produce ID as required under the Road Traffic Acts, refuses to pull over to the side of the road when asked twice to do so, also in contravention of the Road Traffic Acts, and refuses to open his door when asked to do so. At this point the Gardaí are faced with a driver who has given them grounds to arrest him, but who refuses to get out of the car, so they break the window and remove him from it.

Now, one of those narratives makes sense to me. If the other one makes sense to you, you've overdosed on S2S Kool-aid.

oscarBravo

20Cent wrote: »

Where does he refuse to open the door or window?

Did he open the door?

Because your window isn't broken?

No, because I'm not a complete f*cking moron.

20Cent

oscarBravo wrote: »

Did he open the door? No, because I'm not a complete f*cking moron.

Being a moron isn't illegal and doesn't warrant attack and threats afaik.

Suppose the video speaks for itself. If the gardai were a bit less aggressive maybe they would have the locals onside and we wouldn't have to be spending so much money there.

Tipp Man

20Cent wrote: »

Being a moron isn't illegal and doesn't warrant attack and threats afaik.

Suppose the video speaks for itself. If the gardai were a bit less aggressive maybe they would have the locals onside and we wouldn't have to be spending so much money there.

The video does speak for itself - the guy driving the car is a complete idiot

oscarBravo

20Cent wrote: »

Being a moron isn't illegal and doesn't warrant attack and threats afaik.

Refusing to obey the Road Traffic Acts warrants an arrest. You can't arrest someone who is refusing to unlock their car door without breaking the window.

Suppose the video speaks for itself. If the gardai were a bit less aggressive maybe they would have the locals onside and we wouldn't have to be spending so much money there.

The locals are, by and large, onside. The vast majority of locals don't set out to give the Gardaí a hard time so they can capture it on video in an attempt to frame them in a bad light.

MadsL

OscarBravo & Tipp Man, could you acknowledge that this man could have been stopped repeatedly in the weeks and months preceding and that is one explanation for his behaviour.

oscarBravo

MadsL wrote: »

OscarBravo & Tipp Man, could you acknowledge that this man could have been stopped repeatedly in the weeks and months preceding and that is one explanation for his behaviour.

Sure. Will you acknowledge that this man could have set out with the specific intention to provoke the Gardaí into breaking his car window, and that is one explanation for his behaviour?

We don't know why he acted the way he did. One thing is clear: his own behaviour, whatever his reason for it, was the fundamental cause of the altercation, the broken window, and the arrest.

Godge

20Cent wrote: »

Video from Mayo, disgraceful behavior by the Gardai. These guys are out of control, no wonder there is resentment towards them. Imagine having to live around there!

Mans window smashed and he is threatened by gardai.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndjJodItl30

20Cent wrote: »

From the guy stopping to the window being forced open is less than a minute. Thought gards were trained not to lose their temper and deal with situations. No wonder its costing a fortune if their arresting people in situations like this.

20Cent wrote: »

He couldn't open the window, if he opened the door they would have probably attacked him. Being rude is not illegal yet, the garda reaction was totally over the top they didn't even take a minute to talk to him, threatening to pepper spray someone who is of no danger to them. Disgraceful behavior by the Gardai acting like police state bullies in that episode.

20Cent wrote: »

The angry tone from the gard, aggressive approach, the forcing of the window within seconds, the drawn baton. Once out of the car he's threatened with pepper spray! I think I'd keep the door closed myself. Maybe if they took a more patient less aggressive approach it would be better.

Being stopped at roadblocks, ordered to produce ID, aggressive manner, sounds pretty police state like to me.

20Cent wrote: »

No never been stopped at a checkpoint or asked for ID. I'd definitely ask why though if I were.
They could have waited more then 1 minute to start smashing the window, the Gard at the end sounds hysterical doesn't give the guy a chance to do or even say anything. They took no time to assess the situation. If they had taken a few more minutes it could have all been avoided. Very bad pr for the gardai in the area totally over the top reaction. No wonder locals are installing cameras in their cars for protection. If it wasn't filmed no one would believe it.

20Cent wrote: »

I think more than a minute for sure anyway. The guy could have been a bit quicker to cooperate (20 seconds) but the reaction of the gardai is way over the top. He could have been deaf or many other reasons for the delay for all they knew. Smashing the window first and asking questions later, people are innocent until proven guilty in this country even in Mayo. The guy in the vid is a local apparently. Lucky he did record the incident because anyone hearing it would think it unbelievable.

Can you even acknowledge that the Gardai were too quick to use violence when there was no threat to themselves?

20Cent wrote: »

Was he asked to show id can't hear it. Also that might take more than a few seconds to get his wallet or wherever he keeps it. They give him no time to respond before forcing the window then smashing it. Since when does hesitating to respond to a garda allow them to respond with violence.

He was inside a car with the window and door closed. How could he be a threat to them. Even when the door was opened they straight away threaten him with pepper spray!

20Cent wrote: »

Being a moron isn't illegal and doesn't warrant attack and threats afaik.

Suppose the video speaks for itself. If the gardai were a bit less aggressive maybe they would have the locals onside and we wouldn't have to be spending so much money there.

Are you having a laugh? Seriously, if I was in the car behind that idiot, I would have been out of my car asking the gardai to do something about the stupid idiot that was holding me up.

The gardai gave him plenty of time, it was nearly a minute and a half before the window got broken.

He refused to give details about where he was going and what he was doing - "I'm going about my business"- would be the typical answer of a gang member or an IRA thug. His tone was agreesive at all times - the fact that we could not hear the gardai through the video would indicate that they spoke in normal tones in a routine manner. He refused to pull his car over to the side which he was clearly asked to do. He refused to open his window. He states that the window was broken, which we only have his word for, which means he may have been guilty of an offence.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0054.html

If the windows of a vehicle do not open, they pose a risk to those inside the vehicle in the event of a crash as the avenues of escape are limited e.g. if the car is pinned up against a low wall on the driver's side and the passenget side is blocked by the other vehicle, escape can only be through the driver's window.

I think he was lucky to be treated as leniently as he was.

MadsL

Here's the other side of a conversation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw7iZXty8uY

A small portion of that overtime...

MadsL

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sure. Will you acknowledge that this man could have set out with the specific intention to provoke the Gardaí into breaking his car window, and that is one explanation for his behaviour?

We don't know why he acted the way he did. One thing is clear: his own behaviour, whatever his reason for it, was the fundamental cause of the altercation, the broken window, and the arrest.

I'll acknowledge it, however it seems the Guard who was most wound up by it had that least interaction. It also seems as little over the top.

My wife has been stopped at a roadcheck and instructed to move, but refused as the Ban-Garda was standing in front of the car which she considered a safety issue, as she politely explained (and got a laughing agreement from the Ban-Garda standing at her open window)

Imagine had she been pepper-sprayed in response...

oscarBravo

MadsL wrote: »

Here's the other side of a conversation...

I'm sure that demonstrates a point of devastating importance to you, but to me it shows someone with too much time on his hands being a bit of a prick to a Garda.

Tell me: if you interrogated a cop on the streets of Albuquerque in that manner, how do you suppose you'd get on?

For that matter, if you were stopped by a cop there and refused to open your window or door, or show your licence, or pull over - what would be the likely consequence?

oscarBravo

MadsL wrote: »

My wife has been stopped at a roadcheck and instructed to move, but refused as the Ban-Garda was standing in front of the car which she considered a safety issue, as she politely explained (and got a laughing agreement from the Ban-Garda standing at her open window)

Imagine had she been pepper-sprayed in response...

Polite explanation, laughing agreement. It's amazing how smoothly interactions go with the police when you're not going out of your way to be an obnoxious moron, isn't it?

Godge

MadsL wrote: »

Here's the other side of a conversation...



A small portion of that overtime...

That poor man in a car getting harrassed by some member of the public called Tadhg coming up and sticking a camera in his face and asking him questions and annoying him when he was just going about his business.

Now if Tadhg was a guard, he might have some authority to go over there and ask the questions.

tayto lover

20Cent wrote: »

Video from Mayo, disgraceful behavior by the Gardai. These guys are out of control, no wonder there is resentment towards them. Imagine having to live around there!

Mans window smashed and he is threatened by gardai.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndjJodItl30

Ha ha is that the best the STS can do. Keep provoking the garda to stay in the news. I have some news for you i.e. we don't care about your silly campaign.
I have passed through thousands of checkpoints on the border (both sides) and have never had an incident. Why ? Because I behave myself and don't look for trouble. Poor effort to be fair.

MadsL

oscarBravo wrote: »

Tell me: if you interrogated a cop on the streets of Albuquerque in that manner, how do you suppose you'd get on?

It's a strawman, but I'll bite.

First port of call would be the 1st Amendment right to free assembly, which despite me not being a citizen some rights are protected under the Constitution.

Regarding asking the cop what he was doing (interrogated is a bit pejorative perhaps?) I'd say I'd get on fine, assuming that they did as this 'gentleman' did and failed to identify themselves as a cop. They have no power of arrest until they clearly identify themselves as police.

Out of interest what crime do you think I would be committing by asking a guy dressed in black in a plain black car why he was taking photographs of my friends?

I also think there is something of a slur in that question, I have found US cops much more polite than dealings with AGS.

20Cent

Godge wrote: »

Are you having a laugh? Seriously, if I was in the car behind that idiot, I would have been out of my car asking the gardai to do something about the stupid idiot that was holding me up.

The gardai gave him plenty of time, it was nearly a minute and a half before the window got broken.

He refused to give details about where he was going and what he was doing - "I'm going about my business"- would be the typical answer of a gang member or an IRA thug. His tone was agreesive at all times - the fact that we could not hear the gardai through the video would indicate that they spoke in normal tones in a routine manner. He refused to pull his car over to the side which he was clearly asked to do. He refused to open his window. He states that the window was broken, which we only have his word for, which means he may have been guilty of an offence.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0054.html

If the windows of a vehicle do not open, they pose a risk to those inside the vehicle in the event of a crash as the avenues of escape are limited e.g. if the car is pinned up against a low wall on the driver's side and the passenget side is blocked by the other vehicle, escape can only be through the driver's window.

I think he was lucky to be treated as leniently as he was.

What do you think should be done to him?


Don't see why our Gardai have to behave like that in a totally non stressful situation. Despite what Shell want we still have rules of law.

Tipp Man

20Cent wrote: »

What do you think should be done to him?


Don't see why our Gardai have to behave like that in a totally non stressful situation. Despite what Shell want we still have rules of law.

for about the 10th time - why didn't he produce his licence when asked to, why didn't he pull over off the road when asked to, why didn't he open his door when asked to, why didn't he get out of the car when asked to

20Cent

Tipp Man wrote: »

for about the 10th time - why didn't he produce his licence when asked to, why didn't he pull over off the road when asked to, why didn't he open his door when asked to, why didn't he get out of the car when asked to

How on earth would I know!!
Why did the gards over react so much, why not give the guy some time (more than a minute) before smashing the window and threatening him. You seem to think this type of behavior is ok. If you don't show id within a minute its ok to get violent? The guard at the end sounds like he's very angry. If such a small incident drives him to such violence he has no business in the gardai. Keeping cool and controling the situation is what they are supposed to do, keep the peace not break it.

oscarBravo

20Cent wrote: »

Don't see why our Gardai have to behave like that in a totally non stressful situation.

That's because you're working hard to avoid cognitive dissonance. Like when you glossed over my thought experiment earlier - you don't want to actually have to think about this issue in any objective way, because that might force you to challenge your unquestioning belief in everything you've been told by S2S.

oscarBravo

20Cent wrote: »

Why did the gards over react so much, why not give the guy some time (more than a minute) before smashing the window and threatening him.

Because he refused to follow any of the instructions he was given.

You seem to think this type of behavior is ok.

You seem to think that the Road Traffic Acts don't apply to S2S supporters.

Keeping cool and controling the situation is what they are supposed to do, keep the peace not break it.

Again: you actually can't see past the propaganda, can you?

Godge

20Cent wrote: »

What do you think should be done to him?


Don't see why our Gardai have to behave like that in a totally non stressful situation. Despite what Shell want we still have rules of law.

For a start, multiple breaches of the Road Traffic Act suggest to me that he should have been arrested and taken down to the garda station, his defective vehicle impounded and him prosecuted.

20Cent

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's because you're working hard to avoid cognitive dissonance. Like when you glossed over my thought experiment earlier - you don't want to actually have to think about this issue in any objective way, because that might force you to challenge your unquestioning belief in everything you've been told by S2S.

Not at all. Any gard will tell you the last thing they want is some raging colleague who turns any situation for the worse. Haven't been following S2S very closely at all never that interested in it tbh.

MadsL

OscarBravo, you asked the question...I answered it. I asked you what crime do you think I would be committing that I would have reason to be fearful of the police in ABQ, or Mayo for that matter?

Could you answer the question please.

Tipp Man

20Cent wrote: »

How on earth would I know!!
Why did the gards over react so much, why not give the guy some time (more than a minute) before smashing the window and threatening him. You seem to think this type of behavior is ok. If you don't show id within a minute its ok to get violent? The guard at the end sounds like he's very angry. If such a small incident drives him to such violence he has no business in the gardai. Keeping cool and controling the situation is what they are supposed to do, keep the peace not break it.

He was given ample time to get his licence, he was given ample time to pull over as instructed, he was given ample time to open his door and tell them his window couldn't open. He also refused to get out of the car

He decided to act like an idiot - He had no intention of complying with any of the Garda requests no matter how long they stayed there asking him

oscarBravo

MadsL wrote: »

OscarBravo, you asked the question...I answered it. I asked you what crime do you think I would be committing that I would have reason to be fearful of the police in ABQ, or Mayo for that matter?

Could you answer the question please.

I don't think you'd be committing a crime. I just don't think you'd get a particularly warm welcome from a cop anywhere in the world if you stuck a camera in his face and got all snarky and smart-assed like the chap in the video you linked.

Now, if you believe that you'd get a warm and fuzzy response, we'll agree to differ yet again.

Speaking of answering questions, can you answer this one: If you were stopped by a cop there and refused to open your window or door, or show your licence, or pull over - what would be the likely consequence?

MadsL

Godge wrote: »

For a start, multiple breaches of the Road Traffic Act suggest to me that he should have been arrested and taken down to the garda station, his defective vehicle impounded and him prosecuted.

Oh, so Guards can start smashing the windows of those who leave their foglights on, have missing headlight bulbs, or defective brakelights. Motors forum will be thrilled, they keep asking for enforcement of the Road Traffic Act.

When was the last time you heard of someone arrested, taken down to the garda station, defective vehicle impounded and prosecuted.

Last I heard of someone getting their vehicle impounded, the driver was Romanian friend of mine, driving a legal vehicle with no defects on a Romanian licence - all perfectly legal. His licence was called a 'fake' by the Garda, who arrested him and impounded the vehicle. No apology on release.

oscarBravo

Tipp Man wrote: »

He was given ample time to get his licence, he was given ample time to pull over as instructed, he was given ample time to open his door and tell them his window couldn't open. He also refused to get out of the car

He decided to act like an idiot - He had no intention of complying with any of the Garda requests no matter how long they stayed there asking him

Don't bother - you're not spouting S2S propaganda, so it's not going to get through the filter. You're wasting your time.

oscarBravo

MadsL wrote: »

Oh, so Guards can start smashing the windows of those who leave their foglights on...

What a giant straw man. He had his window broken in order to arrest him. He was, in effect, resisting arrest.

Tipp Man

oscarBravo wrote: »

Don't bother - you're not spouting S2S propaganda, so it's not going to get through the filter. You're wasting your time.

It would appear so -amazing how people can be so blinded

MadsL

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't think you'd be committing a crime. I just don't think you'd get a particularly warm welcome from a cop anywhere in the world if you stuck a camera in his face and got all snarky and smart-assed like the chap in the video you linked.

Now, if you believe that you'd get a warm and fuzzy response, we'll agree to differ yet again.

You are being oblique. What does a 'warm welcome?' mean. 'warm and fuzzy'? I'm sorry, I thought we were having a serious debate about civil liberties.

Do you think cops should identify themselves when asked, particularly if taking photographs in a public place?

Speaking of answering questions, can you answer this one: If you were stopped by a cop there and refused to open your window or door, or show your licence, or pull over - what would be the likely consequence?

Likely a gun in your face, but let's consider the likelihood of a stop here having a weapon involved, as my car/truck is considered an extension of my home and I am legally allowed to conceal a weapon in it.

Compare that to the likelihood that the guy in the video is armed or means harm to the Gardai. If the Ban-Garda believes he is a risk, why does she go and stand in front of the car!

edit: "snarky and smart-assed" - you do mean the Guard don't you? "Hugs and Kisses" - what did the guy outside the car say that was "snarky and smart-assed". Asking if this was a reasonable use of resources of police time, I thought was a reasonable question.

Tipp Man

MadsL wrote: »

You are being oblique. What does a 'warm welcome?' mean. 'warm and fuzzy'? I'm sorry, I thought we were having a serious debate about civil liberties.

Do you think cops should identify themselves when asked, particularly if taking photographs in a public place?



Likely a gun in your face, but let's consider the likelihood of a stop here having a weapon involved, as my car/truck is considered an extension of my home and I am legally allowed to conceal a weapon in it.

Compare that to the likelihood that the guy in the video is armed or means harm to the Gardai. If the Ban-Garda believes he is a risk, why does she go and stand in front of the car!

Of course having a gun in a car in Ireland is completly unheard of

http://www.clare.fm/news/garda-ombudsman-investigates-newport-shooting

http://www.dublinblog.ie/2007/09/25/garda-motorcyclist-shot-and-injured-on-ossory-road/

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-suspect-list-in-hunt-for-gang-who-shot-garda-1114888.html

Of course they don't need to be confronted by a gun to be killed or injured

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1216/mcloughling.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/drunk-driver-who-killed-garda-gets-seven-years-in-jail-2828367.html

oscarBravo

MadsL wrote: »

You are being oblique. What does a 'warm welcome?' mean. 'warm and fuzzy'? I'm sorry, I thought we were having a serious debate about civil liberties.

I'm not sure what we're debating where that video is concerned.

Do you think cops should identify themselves when asked, particularly if taking photographs in a public place?

Yes. I also think that that's the limit of their responsibility to randomers who shove cameras in their faces - they should be under no obligation to answer a bunch of stupid questions about what they're currently doing.

Likely a gun in your face, but let's consider the likelihood of a stop here having a weapon involved, as my car/truck is considered an extension of my home and I am legally allowed to conceal a weapon in it.

Guns aside, the point is that you would be arrested, and - if necessary - forcibly removed from your vehicle. That would be the completely appropriate response on the part of the police to your actions, as it was in this case.

oscarBravo

MadsL wrote: »

Asking if this was a reasonable use of resources of police time, I thought was a reasonable question.

Maybe he should have thrown in something truly profound and original, like telling him he should be off catching murderers. That woulda shown him.

If you think there was something noble or admirable about shoving a camera in a police officer's face and asking him questions that he knew the officer wasn't in a position to answer, again we'll have to agree to differ.

MadsL

oscarBravo wrote: »

Maybe he should have thrown in something truly profound and original, like telling him he should be off catching murderers. That woulda shown him.

If you think there was something noble or admirable about shoving a camera in a police officer's face and asking him questions that he knew the officer wasn't in a position to answer, again we'll have to agree to differ.

What do you find objectionable about filming police whilst they perform their duties?

Do you think there is something 'noble' about a police officer failing to identify himself as such when asked to do so in a public place after threatening to 'confiscate' private property legally held in a public place.

I don't believe that you actually believe that those civil liberties are worth so little.

Also, do you regard it the protesters fault that the Guards spent policing time on taking snaps of protesters for 'intelligence'?

oscarBravo

MadsL wrote: »

What do you find objectionable about filming police whilst they perform their duties?

I don't find anything objectionable about that. What I find objectionable is asking stupid smartass questions of the police officers on the video while doing so.

Do you think there is something 'noble' about a police officer failing to identify himself as such when asked to do so in a public place after threatening to 'confiscate' private property legally held in a public place.

I don't think there was anything noble about that conversation from start to finish.

I don't believe that you actually believe that those civil liberties are worth so little.

Don't get me wrong: the guy who made that video has every right to be a prick. I don't believe the police should have in any way acted to prevent him from demonstrating what a prick he was. I still think he's a prick.

Also, do you regard it the protesters fault that the Guards spent policing time on taking snaps of protesters for 'intelligence'?

Well, yes. Intelligence is a fairly important component of policing, and we're back to the question of whether the policing would be necessary if the protests were as law-abiding as the wide-eyed innocent S2S supporters here would have us believe.

MadsL

Which question was 'smartass' in your view? I can hear several 'smartass' comment from the Guard (oh, wait...was he a Guard?)

On his Oath perhaps?

16-(1) " I hereby solemnly and sincerely declare before God that _ I will faithfully discharge the duties of a member of the Garda Siochana with fairness, integrity, regard for human rights, diligence and impartially, upholding the Constitution and the Laws and according equal respect to all people, {2005.} {No.20} Garda Siochana Act 2005. While I continue to be a member, I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all my duties according to Law, and I do not belong to, and will not remain a member form, belong to or subscribe to, any Political party or secret society whatsoever.

“The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen”. Constitution of Ireland - Bunreacht na h-Eireann, Article 40.3.1.

Do you see that anonymously threatening a citizen with forfeiture as being consistent with 'defending and vindicating the rights of the citizen'?
Prick or not...

Well, yes. Intelligence is a fairly important component of policing, and we're back to the question of whether the policing would be necessary if the protests were as law-abiding as the wide-eyed innocent S2S supporters here would have us believe.

So your view is that if the protests were law-abiding then there would be no need to spend police time on them, yet here is a law-abiding protest in a public place where resources are being wasted taking snaps. Contradiction, no?

On the guy in the car getting a window smashed, well he is John Monaghan, one of the local protesters. So he may have reason to be fearful. He may also have read the Road Traffic Act which apparently (unless someone corrects me) holds NO provision for a Guard to force you exit the vehicle until they first tell you why you should exit (drunk driving perhaps) or on suspicion of a crime. So it appears he was well within his rights to sit tight until he is informed of why he is being detained.

What concerns me, is that many here seem to be arguing for the rights of AGS over the rights of the private citizen. That strikes me as a very dangerous slope indeed.

Now cue the usual "if you haven't done anything wrong etc etc"

joela

20Cent wrote: »

Being a moron isn't illegal and doesn't warrant attack and threats afaik.

Suppose the video speaks for itself. If the gardai were a bit less aggressive maybe they would have the locals onside and we wouldn't have to be spending so much money there.

He was being an absolute twat, his tone of voice left no doubt as to the fact that he was being belligerent. If he spoke to me that way in response to a reasonable query I'd be annoyed and I'm not supposed to be trying to keep law and order in a highly charged situation. Bloody S2S and their bloody pointless propaganda takes attention away from real issues in ireland. Who the eff does that guy think he is? He doesn't represent me or any of the people I know so where does he get off thinking he knows better than the rest of us with regard to the situation in Mayo. Bloody prat and all those S2S populist, dopey, blind to logic and reason followers are detrimental to real activists desperately trying to make a difference to social and environmental issues in Ireland.

joela

MadsL wrote: »

Here's the other side of a conversation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw7iZXty8uY

A small portion of that overtime...

Mads the guy with the camera is being a dick, wtf has that clip got to do with Shell, Corrib and the whole mess? What is the guy shoving himself in the face of gardai doing other than irritating them and putting them on edge. Would you like people following you around and shoving a camera in your face? He is a bloody disgrace, a bully himself and discredits the already blackened copysheet of S2S further.

20Cent

joela wrote: »

He was being an absolute twat, his tone of voice left no doubt as to the fact that he was being belligerent. If he spoke to me that way in response to a reasonable query I'd be annoyed and I'm not supposed to be trying to keep law and order in a highly charged situation.

Being a moron a twat or a dick are not illegal. Certainly don't warrant smashing a window beside the guys face and threatening to mace him.

joela wrote: »

Who the eff does that guy think he is? He doesn't represent me or any of the people I know so where does he get off thinking he knows better than the rest of us with regard to the situation in Mayo.

Since he is not claiming to represent you or any of those things the point is mute.

20Cent

joela wrote: »

Mads the guy with the camera is being a dick, wtf has that clip got to do with Shell, Corrib and the whole mess? What is the guy shoving himself in the face of gardai doing other than irritating them and putting them on edge. Would you like people following you around and shoving a camera in your face? He is a bloody disgrace, a bully himself and discredits the already blackened copysheet of S2S further.

Do you think a garda threatening to confiscate a camera which he has no right to do is wrong? Garda tried to bully him away but guy stood up for himself fair play to him.

joela

20Cent wrote: »

Being a moron a twat or a dick are not illegal. Certainly don't warrant smashing a window beside the guys face and threatening to mace him.



Since he is not claiming to represent you or any of those things the point is mute.

It may not be illegal to be a dick but it certainly is a requirement to comply with a reasonable request from a garda. It is certainly reasonable to produce your licence when it is requested and it would certainly be common courtesy to open your door to speak to someone if your window isn't working.

I think you mean "moot" not "mute" :rolleyes:
It is most certainly not moot as this guy and his compatriots claim to be acting on behalf of Ireland, as a citizen I say they are not acting on my behalf, I do not endorse their actions or condone their behaviour. I believe they have done enormous damage within the area and the community.

joela

20Cent wrote: »

Do you think a garda threatening to confiscate a camera which he has no right to do is wrong? Garda tried to bully him away but guy stood up for himself fair play to him.

Fair play for needling a man doing his job, fair play for portraying himself as a pointless twit, fairplay for posting his irrelevant and pointless video on YouTube? The garda has every right to ask that the camera be removed from his face and to ask the guy to go away. I'm not aware of the rights and wrongs in terms of the legality of confiscating the camera but to be honest I'd see nothing wrong with it as what this guy was doing was nothing short of harassment.

20Cent

joela wrote: »

It may not be illegal to be a dick but it certainly is a requirement to comply with a reasonable request from a garda. It is certainly reasonable to produce your license when it is requested and it would certainly be common courtesy to open your door to speak to someone if your window isn't working.

I think its reasonable to give someone a few minutes to reply and get their stuff together before smashing the window in on them threatening them with pepper spray and screaming like a lunatic.

joela wrote: »

I think you mean "moot" not "mute" :rolleyes:
It is most certainly not moot as this guy and his compatriots claim to be acting on behalf of Ireland, as I citizen I say they are not acting on my behalf, I do not endorse their actions or condone their behaviour. I believe they have done enormous damage within the area and the community.

Its not practical to have a referendum before every protest. People have the right to protest issues that concern them. Don't hear them claiming to represent Ireland or you.

20Cent

joela wrote: »

Fair play for needling a man doing his job, fair play for portraying himself as a pointless twit, fairplay for posting his irrelevant and pointless video on YouTube? The garda has every right to ask that the camera be removed from his face and to ask the guy to go away. I'm not aware of the rights and wrongs in terms of the legality of confiscating the camera but to be honest I'd see nothing wrong with it as what this guy was doing was nothing short of harassment.

I suppose the gardai would love to be able to confiscate cameras, but we still live in a free(ish) country. The gard tries to browbeat the guy at the start. Some people would probably leave it at that but others stand up to intimidation fortunately.

joela

20Cent wrote: »

I think its reasonable to give someone a few minutes to reply and get their stuff together before smashing the window in on them threatening them with pepper spray and screaming like a lunatic.



Its not practical to have a referendum before every protest. People have the right to protest issues that concern them. Don't hear them claiming to represent Ireland or you.

What stuff did he need to get together? He could have opened the door and said "the window is broken", he could have pulled over when asked, he could have opened the door when asked again on several occasions to open the window. He was provoking the garda, being a twat, deliberately blocking the road and generally being a pain in the backside.

I hear them consistently claiming that they are getting back Ireland's resources which as a citizen of Ireland I also have a right to endorse or not. What issues are they protesting about? They are a tiny group of deluded people causing a ridiculous amount of trouble for no particular reason. The time for active protest has been and gone, An Taisce have withdrawn all objections with regard to planning and environment so it is really just a bunch of ill-informed troublemakers left spreading their lies and propaganda. Extremism is never good in any form and this group of people have done untold damage to those trying to improve environmental protection in Ireland. Thanks to people like S2S we will always be known as "environmentalists" who say no to everything, have no solutions, are unreasonable and to be largely ignored.

joela

20Cent wrote: »

I suppose the gardai would love to be able to confiscate cameras, but we still live in a free(ish) country. The gard tries to browbeat the guy at the start. Some people would probably leave it at that but others stand up to intimidation fortunately.

LMAO, you really don't know the meaning of intimidation if you think that was what the garda was doing, your hero was far more intimidating. Before you quote freedom and the lack thereof in Ireland look around you and then compare yourself to Syria, Saudi, Iran, Russia and even the US. Get a bloody grip and open your eyes to what is really going on.

Why do you support S2S? What do you think they a) hope to achieve, b) are currently achieving? Another question, is it right that these same downtrodden, harassed and intimidated protestors regularly abuse workers on the scheme? In fact threaten, abuse and intimidate some of the people tasked with monitoring the environmental aspects of the work? The same people who have the expertise to report any breaches of environmental compliance, people employed as objective and professional consultants. Is that right? Look to S2S and see who really are the bullies and oppressors trying to brainwash the country into believing lies and propaganda.

20Cent

joela wrote: »

LMAO, you really don't know the meaning of intimidation if you think that was what the garda was doing, your hero was far more intimidating. Before you quote freedom and the lack thereof in Ireland look around you and then compare yourself to Syria, Saudi, Iran, Russia and even the US. Get a bloody grip and open your eyes to what is really going on.

Why do you support S2S? What do you think they a) hope to achieve, b) are currently achieving? Another question, is it right that these same downtrodden, harassed and intimidated protestors regularly abuse workers on the scheme? In fact threaten, abuse and intimidate some of the people tasked with monitoring the environmental aspects of the work? The same people who have the expertise to report any breaches of environmental compliance, people employed as objective and professional consultants. Is that right? Look to S2S and see who really are the bullies and oppressors trying to brainwash the country into believing lies and propaganda.

I don't particularly strong opinion on the whole thing. Don't think they are protesting just for the craic though. The deal does seem very dodgy and the Shell have made a dogs dinner of the whole thing at every stage.
Just those two videos show ordinary members of the public being harassed and gardai using unnecessary violence is disturbing. Bulling is wrong whoever does it even those in uniform. Considering my tax money is being used to pay for it.

Scofflaw

Handbags down, please, ladies. Also, language - half the recent posts appear to consist of 4-letter Anglo-Saxon words.

moderately,
Scofflaw

K-9

Mod

Could posters stop using offensive terms to describe the actions in the video, it isn't helping the discussion.

There is a wider discussion to be had here, we've had 3/4 pages of posters locking horns on the video and it's just going round in circles, better to agree to disagree on that and concentrate on wider issues.

MadsL

Speaking of the wider issues.....

MadsL wrote: »

What concerns me, is that many here seem to be arguing for the rights of AGS over the rights of the private citizen. That strikes me as a very dangerous slope indeed.