The butchering of foreign words

Barna77

Try to explain that Jesús is a fairly common name in Spain. I got a call from Jesus hahaha

Wibbs wrote: »

Or Spaniards who can have difficulty with I and E. IE(no pun:)) they'll tend to pronounce Ship as Sheep and can't discern the difference without practice.

Or "sheet" and "shít" :pac:

cloptrop

Atari Jaguar, etc.

Nulty wrote: »

Do you mean Pyuzho and Perzho? I don't know which is right, or even if either are right. Any one know?

I have a peugeout I have no idea how to pronounce it. I dont really care though I own it I can call it what I want.

dxhound2005

cloptrop wrote: »

Id say the Op is a really cool guy with lots of friends.
Maybe you should translate jalepeno , or tortilla to English for us. If we had English words for these things we wouldnt need to attempt a foreign language.

The last time I checked this was Ireland and here we pronounce our ch like a ch , if they want it to sound like a k here call it brusketta. Jog back to Italy and peddle your linguistics there.

che sarà, sarà

Liam Byrne

Not annoying

Nulty wrote: »

LordSutch wrote: »

Or what about Irish people butchering the French word (car manufacturer) Peugeot )

Do you mean Pyuzho and Perzho? I don't know which is right, or even if either are right. Any one know?

It's close to "Peh-joo"

The "per" is the English ad companies doing an EastEnders and adding an "inter-vowel-r" that doesn't belong.

Nulty

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It's close to "Peh-joo"

The "per" is the English ad companies doing and EastEnders and adding an "inter-vowel-r" that doesn't belong.

Thats mad....I'm gonna stick with pewzho :pac:

dxhound2005

I'm sticking with Pudgy Yacht.

i've never heard anyone pronouncing fajita with a hard j

Capt'n Midnight

Not annoying

Morricone wrote: »

Bruschetta is one, it should be pronounced brus-ketta as the ch in Italian is pronounced as a k. /QUOTE]Bruschetta ?

Che c'e ?

pickarooney

dominiquecruz wrote: »

? Sorry, you've lost me.

In English, it's pronounced "déjà vous" as opposed to "déjà vu" [deʒa-'vy] in French.

saa

Atari Jaguar, etc.

Meh...No I don't care
although I was in Venice, Italy over the summer at the Biennale and I was in the cafe trying to get a parma sandwich and... well there was this chicken looking thing and the sign was tiny and behind glass, it was some long word beginning with C, so I pointed and asked for
"one of those please"
and she asked "which one?"
"one of those", "which one?" "the chicken"
and she looked at me and said "C..." what ever that word was not what rhymes with Hunt and I replied yeah.. chicken.
She was well aggravated, it was definitely amusing to me though.

The King of Moo

Atari Jaguar, etc.

Why does it seem that it's so much more common and accepted to criticise perceived mispronunciations (and I believe that with English, there's virtually no such thing as mispronunciation due to the huge variety of pronunciations among English speakers alone) than it is to criticise grammar mistakes?

The threads on general mispronunciations always attract more people giving out about perceived mistakes, and few people defending variations in pronunciation, compared to grammar threads. Not so much on this thread, as the OP is a little, well, misguided perhaps, but the ones on "mispronunciations that annoy you" that always crop up.

Wibbs

Atari Jaguar, etc.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I wouldn't be offended if they didn't say Docker-T while getting the Spaniard's name spot-on......that's what makes it disrespectful, because neither are native but they make the effort for all of the other countries.

There may be another explanation LB. The Spaniard's name is clearly 'foreign' to UK ears(and ours), so they'll make more of a conscious effort. However they could well have grown up with 'local' Dohertys who pronounced it Docker-T and even anglicised the spelling after generations living there. UK football/sports pundits and fans would certainly have heard and seen it, the aforementioned Tommy Docherty. It was his name and that's how he says it, so hardly any issue with respect 'One of their own' and about as 'foreign' as the queen(oh wait...:)). So a much easier 'mistake' to make. Doubly so given the lack of that soft C/G in their speech. Like I say the Americans while not putting a hard C in there, can't quite get it right either, EG Shannen Doherty pronounces it Doe-herty and again it's her name so hardly any disrespect issue there.

Other good examples would be the Gallagher brothers from Oasis. They themselves pronounce it the 'English' way, with a hard G and they're not too far from their Irish origins. Again no disrespect intended.

dxhound2005

Ronnie Moran, Jamie Carragher and Tim Cahill prounounced the English way all sounded jarring to my ears when I heard them first but now through familiarity I wouldn't take any notice.

LH Pathe

Au contraire, i just do not use em

Doc Ruby

Nulty wrote: »

Horse Racing has loads of French names and the Brits always have trouble pronouncing the French

That's ironic.

Clareboy

Not annoying

English speakers generally display a type of linguistic arrogance when it comes to pronouncing words that are not English. It Spain, some years ago, I discovered ' The Fungerola Syndrome ' , thats how the Irish pronounce the Spanish resort of Fuengirola. They can't even pronounce Alicante, they have to say Ally-Can-Tee, just like the English! Pathetic!

af_thefragile

Atari Jaguar, etc.

Reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YNSUTqEssg

ceegee

Atari Jaguar, etc.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

ceegee wrote: »

Looking back, that show is more clever than I gave it credit for

That only works if you give it zero credit.

You should watch the Phil Silvers Show sometime,
or Monty Python
or QI
or Duck Soup

Zero was about the starting level alright.

Not claiming its the greatest comedy ever written, just something I had never picked up on as a child.

Oh, btw QI doesnt deserve a mention on the above list. Pseudo-intellectual comedians trotting out random facts on a topic they googled before the show. Often incorrect facts thay they're rarely called up on

Barna77

Clareboy wrote: »

English speakers generally display a type of linguistic arrogance when it comes to pronouncing words that are not English. It Spain, some years ago, I discovered ' The Fungerola Syndrome ' , thats how the Irish pronounce the Spanish resort of Fuengirola. They can't even pronounce Alicante, they have to say Ally-Can-Tee, just like the English! Pathetic!

The one that wrecks my head is how people say Benalmádena. Benal-mah-dee-nah :mad:

treborflynn

who are you peter griffin?

ThOnda

Not annoying

A bit of respect to a foreign language. It is the same for foreigners (including me) when we mispronounce words in Irish. It is cute and acceptable one or two times, but if anybody keeps on pronouncing Dro-Ghee-da, that'll grind your gears, trust me.
Just a bit of respect. Personally, I love French language, but I cannot speak French. And although I had few lessons, I don't dare to use any French words, just to avoid incorrect pronunciation.

Liam Byrne

Not annoying

Y

Wibbs wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I wouldn't be offended if they didn't say Docker-T while getting the Spaniard's name spot-on......that's what makes it disrespectful, because neither are native but they make the effort for all of the other countries.

There may be another explanation LB. The Spaniard's name is clearly 'foreign' to UK ears(and ours), so they'll make more of a conscious effort. However they could well have grown up with 'local' Dohertys who pronounced it Docker-T and even anglicised the spelling after generations living there. UK football/sports pundits and fans would certainly have heard and seen it, the aforementioned Tommy Docherty. It was his name and that's how he says it, so hardly any issue with respect 'One of their own' and about as 'foreign' as the queen(oh wait...:)). So a much easier 'mistake' to make. Doubly so given the lack of that soft C/G in their speech. Like I say the Americans while not putting a hard C in there, can't quite get it right either, EG Shannen Doherty pronounces it Doe-herty and again it's her name so hardly any disrespect issue there.

Other good examples would be the Gallagher brothers from Oasis. They themselves pronounce it the 'English' way, with a hard G and they're not too far from their Irish origins. Again no disrespect intended.

Irish people grew up with names like Cahill and yet I've just heard an RTE guy manage to refer to "Tim Kay-hill" with no issues.

If he can do it, so can Sky. They just don't want to and have no issues mispronouncing (for some reason only) Irish names.

bnt

I'd get really annoyed if I was Welsh, listening to English people trying to pronounce Welsh words. The actor Ioan Gruffudd (King Arthur, Fantastic Four) put his foot down, refusing to Anglicise his name for American audiences: it would be probably Owen Griffith if he did.

I learned a bit of Japanese, and the main thing I hear English-speakers do is put emphasis in where it doesn't belong. "Proper" Japanese pronunciation is almost totally flat, and if there is emphasis, it is there in the written form (or should be). "Karaoke" is literally "ka-ra-oh-ke", the "oh" is not lengthened or emphasised in any way. Same for "kimono". But the "o" in "tōfu" is emphasised, so there's a bar on the ō if written properly. As a language, Japanese is a bit ... otaku. :cool:

Pdfile

LordSutch wrote: »

Or what about Irish people butchering the French word (car manufacturer) Peugeot )

how ??

the french say their Peugeot...

we call them ****e...


i see no issues here.

Liam Byrne

Not annoying

Pdfile wrote: »

LordSutch wrote: »

Or what about Irish people butchering the French word (car manufacturer) Peugeot )

how ??

the french say their Peugeot...

we call them ****e...


i see no issues here.

But their Peugeot is correct - it's our pronunciation that's incorrect (albeit less incorrect than the UK version)

Clareboy

Not annoying

The following is just another example of the linguistic arrogance of English speakers generally. My wife and I booked an apartment in Torrevieja, Costa Blanca, Spain some years ago. We were met by this English guy who was living there and worked as a meet and greet caretaker. He kept pronouncing Torrevieja as " Torra-Becka " and he was living in the place! As he showed us around the apartment, he kept referring to " Granny ". I said to my wife afterwards " who the hell is Granny? ". Then it dawned on me who he was talking about. The owner of the apartment was an Irish lady named ' Grainne' and this stupid English twit pronounced her name as " Granny ". How arrogant and thick-headed can one get!

dxhound2005

Clareboy wrote: »

The following is just another example of the linguistic arrogance of English speakers generally. My wife and I booked an apartment in Torrevieja, Costa Blanca, Spain some years ago. We were met by this English guy who was living there and worked as a meet and greet caretaker. He kept pronouncing Torrevieja as " Torra-Becka " and he was living in the place! As he showed us around the apartment, he kept referring to " Granny ". I said to my wife afterwards " who the hell is Granny? ". Then it dawned on me who he was talking about. The owner of the apartment was an Irish lady named ' Grainne' and this stupid English twit pronounced her name as " Granny ". How arrogant and thick-headed can one get!

The Germans are worse. I was watching Grainne Murphy swimming on German TV and the commentator kept caller her Grain.

dxhound2005

bnt wrote: »

I'd get really annoyed if I was Welsh, listening to English people trying to pronounce Welsh words. The actor Ioan Gruffudd (King Arthur, Fantastic Four) put his foot down, refusing to Anglicise his name for American audiences: it would be probably Owen Griffith if he did.

I learned a bit of Japanese, and the main thing I hear English-speakers do is put emphasis in where it doesn't belong. "Proper" Japanese pronunciation is almost totally flat, and if there is emphasis, it is there in the written form (or should be). "Karaoke" is literally "ka-ra-oh-ke", the "oh" is not lengthened or emphasised in any way. Same for "kimono". But the "o" in "tōfu" is emphasised, so there's a bar on the ō if written properly. As a language, Japanese is a bit ... otaku. :cool:

Thats terrible about the Japanese, loads of us were getting it wrong. However I did know the right pronounciation for Fukushima.

http://pronouncefukushima.wordpress.com/2011/03/14/pronunciation/

Lanaier

Not annoying

"Peking" (from native English speakers)

It's not the 1920's, you know it's "Beijing", you're not an elderly German gentleman yet still you persist!

Remove you're granddad's tweed jacket and go to your room young man!

dxhound2005

Lanaier wrote: »

"Peking" (from native English speakers)

It's not the 1920's, you know it's "Beijing", you're not an elderly German gentleman yet still you persist!

Remove you're granddad's tweed jacket and go to your room young man!

That's not fair. Some people who grew up using Peking would find it hard to change. Mind you if they were from the 1920's they would have called it Peiping. And some institutions in Beijing have retained their old name e.g. Peking University. BTW I hope you know the correct pronounciation for Beijing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GE4dkpOdPw

lividduck

Not annoying

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Y

Irish people grew up with names like Cahill and yet I've just heard an RTE guy manage to refer to "Tim Kay-hill" with no issues.

If he can do it, so can Sky. They just don't want to and have no issues mispronouncing (for some reason only) Irish names.

Actually Tim cahill insists that his name is pronounced Kay-Hill so they are pronouncing it as he says it should be pronounced.

later12

Atari Jaguar, etc.

I remember once as a 16 year old kid going on Work Experience to the Irish Times. I got completely lost and had to ask an ould wan selling the Herald near the GPO where D'Olier Street was. Only, much to the woman's amusement, I used the correct French pronunciation which is something like Durh-liEH Street and she beckoned her pal, another ould wan, over to hear me say it again:(

I also had a similar problem with Aungier Street. I would have just presumed it was pronounced Awnzh-iEH Street, but got into a taxi one night where I think the guy thought I was just being a pretentious wanker for not calling it AIN-jer street as I now know it to be.

Anyway, the point is that when foreign words get integrated into our vocabulary, they become part of the English itinerary and can and possibly must take on a new correct interpretation, simply because our phonetics do not resemble those of all other cultures and languages.

It really isn't a big deal.

goose2005

ThOnda wrote: »

A bit of respect to a foreign language. It is the same for foreigners (including me) when we mispronounce words in Irish. It is cute and acceptable one or two times, but if anybody keeps on pronouncing Dro-Ghee-da, that'll grind your gears, trust me.

The weirdest example was "The Thorn Birds", an Australian character who supposedly grew up in Meath called her ranch "Drogheda" and kept saying it "Drogeeda".

Lanaier wrote: »

"Peking" (from native English speakers)

It's not the 1920's, you know it's "Beijing", you're not an elderly German gentleman yet still you persist!

Remove you're granddad's tweed jacket and go to your room young man!

Neither spelling is a proper rendering of the actual pronunciation.

cocoshovel

Not annoying

I agree. Uncultured swine.

Feeona

bnt wrote: »

"Karaoke" is literally "ka-ra-oh-ke", the "oh" is not lengthened or emphasised in any way.

When I came back from Japan, I used to get funny looks if I said 'ka-ra-te' or 'ka-ra-oh-ke'. So I stopped :pac:

I also used to say 'pahb' instead of 'pub', 'Dahblin' instead of Dublin, 'mahney' instead of money, and 'menny' instead of many because my Japanese students would look at me as if I were some sort of gaijin and/or monster if I said it the Irish way. I had to stop saying those things fairly sharpish when I came back to Ireland before people started thinking I was 'getting ideas above my station'.

stoneill

Atari Jaguar, etc.

For the really pedantic.
Panini is already the plural of panino.

dxhound2005

stoneill wrote: »

For the really pedantic.
Panini is already the plural of panino.

I know, see Post #97.

I'm only slightly pedantic.

skregs

Not annoying

Barna77 wrote: »

Coño!

You were able to get your mouth around that one alright

later12

Atari Jaguar, etc.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But their Peugeot is correct - it's our pronunciation that's incorrect (albeit less incorrect than the UK version)

Why is it "incorrect"?

They're using French phonetics, we're using the one appropriate to our language. In that context, the word becomes an Anglicised, just like very man y other French words that have been integrated into our language.

I have always said "Pyou-zho" when speaking English, and I always will.

The French and the pedants can get tae f*ck!

Barna77

skregs wrote: »

You were able to get your mouth around that one alright

It's good to swear on boards and it doesn't get censored haha

Kevwoody

Morricone wrote: »

firefly08 wrote: »

OP, how do you pronounce words such as baguette, deja vu, entrepreneur etc.?

I pronounce deja vu with an elongated u akin to the way view is pronounced in the English language.

Baguette I pronounce, slightly differently to the general pronounciation and I would pronounce entrepreneur as per social convention.

What a gob****e...

Lanaier

Not annoying

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That's not fair. Some people who grew up using Peking would find it hard to change. Mind you if they were from the 1920's they would have called it Peiping. And some institutions in Beijing have retained their old name e.g. Peking University. BTW I hope you know the correct pronounciation for Beijing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GE4dkpOdPw

If you grew up in Ireland in the last 30 years I doubt you grew up saying "Peking", just talking that from personal experience though so could be mistaken but I've certainly heard "Peking" said far less.

Peking University only proves that it is an outdated term, it was founded well over a hundred years ago and "Peking University" is now a powerful brand name in of itself, which would explain why the name remains.

I've actually never come across "Peiping" though , interesting.

As for the pronunciation vid there I don't see anything unusual there.

goose2005 wrote: »

Neither spelling is a proper rendering of the actual pronunciation.

Because the word is in PinYin, a romanized form of Chinese.

IE It's not an English word.

Neither is "rendevous", yet we have incorporated that word into English with it's original pronunciation - I'm assuming tht last part, not a French speaker.

The point is....if you are a youngish Irish person you know the place is called Beijing.

I understand that in some languages the word is still "Peking" and that's A-OK with me, just saying that when a native English speaker of my age (30's) and younger says it it doesn't piss me off or anything but I think it makes them look a tad silly.

Liam Byrne

Not annoying

lividduck wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Y

Irish people grew up with names like Cahill and yet I've just heard an RTE guy manage to refer to "Tim Kay-hill" with no issues.

If he can do it, so can Sky. They just don't want to and have no issues mispronouncing (for some reason only) Irish names.

Actually Tim cahill insists that his name is pronounced Kay-Hill so they are pronouncing it as he says it should be pronounced.

I think you missed my point completely.

Irish commentators can manage to pronounce his version of Cahill, negating the excuse that commentators get names wrong when they differ from the versions they grew up.

If Irish commentators can get it right, Sky or BBC should be able to; they're just being lazy and disrespectful.

summerskin

Not annoying

Liam Byrne wrote: »

lividduck wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Y

Irish people grew up with names like Cahill and yet I've just heard an RTE guy manage to refer to "Tim Kay-hill" with no issues.

If he can do it, so can Sky. They just don't want to and have no issues mispronouncing (for some reason only) Irish names.

Actually Tim cahill insists that his name is pronounced Kay-Hill so they are pronouncing it as he says it should be pronounced.

I think you missed my point completely.

Irish commentators can manage to pronounce his version of Cahill, negating the excuse that commentators get names wrong when they differ from the versions they grew up.

If Irish commentators can get it right, Sky or BBC should be able to; they're just being lazy and disrespectful.

Your argument will be valid the day Irish commentators pronounce Birmingham and Sunderland correctly(90% of them emphasise the wrong vowel and the 'land' in sunderland is more of a 'luhnd' sound) and also when they realise that Anthony is not pronounced with a 'th' sound. Listening to them butcher Anthony pilkington's name on Saturday night was painful.

Are they being lazy and disrespectful too? Or is it just the usual Hiberno-English crap excuse?

Ellis Dee

Not that it bothers me, but an awful lot of Irish (and British) people who use a certain brand of mobile phone mispronounce its name as something like "No-key-a", whereas the correct pronunciation is with the stress on the first syllable Nok, followed by a short ia.:):)

http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/d1645/Nokia

And there's another interesting tale about what Lumia means in Spanish ---:D

Jay D

I don't really care. I know how to pronounce most but I'm not trying to be some perfectionist who demands that kind of level of world word knowledge. Bit poncy in fairness.

Ellis Dee

summerskin wrote: »

Your argument will be valid the day Irish commentators pronounce Birmingham and Sunderland correctly(90% of them emphasise the wrong vowel and the 'land' in sunderland is more of a 'luhnd' sound) and also when they realise that Anthony is not pronounced with a 'th' sound. Listening to them butcher Anthony pilkington's name on Saturday night was painful.

Are they being lazy and disrespectful too? Or is it just the usual Hiberno-English crap excuse?

Aw, c'mon, the "Hiberno-English crap" has it's amusing moments as well. Especially in my part of the country, where most of my fellow-Buffalos have great difficulty dealing with the diphthong "th". Thus it's always "one", "two", "tree" and "dis" and "dat".:):)

I can hardly wait for the aul Windsor wan to kick the bucket and Bigears to ascend the throne, because he'll be called King Charles the Third over there, but in the Irish Midlands he's be Charles the Turd. What a crappy destiny!:D:D

summerskin

Not annoying

he's more likely to take the name george the seventh, from all accounts. bullet dodged.

Wibbs

Atari Jaguar, etc.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I think you missed my point completely.

Irish commentators can manage to pronounce his version of Cahill, negating the excuse that commentators get names wrong when they differ from the versions they grew up.

If Irish commentators can get it right, Sky or BBC should be able to; they're just being lazy and disrespectful.

Or maybe you're being more sensitive to the suspicion of Engerlish disrespect? Seems to be the case.

Again are the Gallagher brothers being lazy and disrespecting themselves when they pronounce a hard G? Given they're pretty recent Irish English and would know the correct pronunciation what's that about? Is Tommy Dockerty and his family disrespecting himself when pronounces and spells out a hard C? Indeed is this Cahill chap disrespecting himself when he says Kayhill?

On that point our American cousins can regularly murder Irish names(and doubtless other cultures), Kayhill as a pronunciation would be a given, or is it just the Brits singled out as being lazy and disrespectful?

Liam Byrne

Not annoying

Wibbs wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I think you missed my point completely.

Irish commentators can manage to pronounce his version of Cahill, negating the excuse that commentators get names wrong when they differ from the versions they grew up.

If Irish commentators can get it right, Sky or BBC should be able to; they're just being lazy and disrespectful.

Or maybe you're being more sensitive to the suspicion of Engerlish disrespect? Seems to be the case as

Again are the Gallagher brothers being lazy and disrespecting themselves when they pronounce a hard G? Given they're pretty recent Irish English and would know the correct pronunciation what's that about? Is Tommy Dockerty and his family

What ? You normally make sense, Wibbs - I'm surprised!

There's no issue pronouncing a name the way the person themselves pronounce it......it's their name, so it's their choice.

On that point our American cousins can regularly murder Irish names(and doubtless other cultures), Kayhill as a pronunciation would be a given, or is it just the Brits singled out as being lazy and disrespectful?

Some American commentators do it too. We just hear less of them than we do the English ones.

So no - it's not some Anglophobic rubbish.