A question regarding homoepathic "treatments" in pharmacies

mcmoustache

I asked my girlfriend recently to pick up some arnica recently for some sports-related injuries. She ended up getting some Nelson's 30C Homeopathic Arnica for nearly a tenner.

Obviously, this is nothing but sucrose/fructose and contains no arnica whatsoever. At 30C concentration, we're talking 1 part arnica to 10E60 parts water so there's just no way for there to be any arnica in there.

It got me thinking. This product is packaged to give the impression that it's a product containing arnica. On the other hand, it does state clearly that it's homeopathic and is a 30C solution.

My question is, where does this stand regarding the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act? To me it seems to occupy a grey area in that it gives the misleading impression that it contains an active ingredient but on the other hand it does state less clearly that there can be no active ingredient in it whatsoever.



PS. We won't be returning it as the receipt was binned and I'm unable to go to the pharmacy in question because of its location. I'll probably down the lot in one go for a laugh. My question is completely hypothetical.

dudara

It is as described - arnica at a particular concentration. Whether you believe or not in homeopathy is another matter and not something I want to get into in this forum.

mysteries1984

I'm a bit confused by this - it does contain arnica, doesn't it? In a concentration as described by its 30C designation?

Zab

I'm with you that homoeopathy is generally a sham but I don't think there was any intention to deceive on the shop's part. They were honestly selling a homoeopathic remedy and labelled it as such, although it should certainly have homoeopathy in big letters and Arnica in tiny ones. Really you're just suggesting that homoeopathic remedies should be illegal, which is a totally different question. I suppose you could argue that it has so little Arnica that it shouldn't be described as Arnica, but you'd have to convince a judge of this. I'd hope you'd have a good case but I honestly don't really know. Unfortunately the realistic way to avoid this happening was for your girlfriend to realize what she was buying, which I'm guessing she will next time!

mysteries1984 wrote: »

I'm a bit confused by this - it does contain arnica, doesn't it? In a concentration as described by its 30C designation?

Amusing quote from wikipedia describing 30C

Dilution advocated by Hahnemann for most purposes: on average, this would require giving two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient.

mcmoustache

dudara wrote: »

It is as described - arnica at a particular concentration. Whether you believe or not in homeopathy is another matter and not something I want to get into in this forum.

You're right, i suppose. There is enough information on the packaging to deduce that there's no arnica there. It's just that to the untrained eye, it looks like it has at least some arnica in it.

I too don't want a debate here regarding the efficacy of homeopathy here as i'm not interested in that side of things and this isn't the place for it anyway.

It just struck me as a bit misleading to sell something that looks like medicine when it contains nothing of the sort. Everything about the container made it look like medicine including warnings not to exceed the stated dose. The only way to know that there's zero content in it is by knowing what 30C means. This requires a knowledge of what homeopathy is as well as some mathematical competence.

At the end of the day, it is "as described" so i suppose it doesn't fall foul of the act.

mcmoustache

Zab wrote: »

I'm with you that homoeopathy is generally a sham but I don't think there was any intention to deceive on the shop's part. They were honestly selling a homoeopathic remedy and labelled it as such, although it should certainly have homoeopathy in big letters and Arnica in tiny ones. Really you're just suggesting that homoeopathic remedies should be illegal, which is a totally different question. I suppose you could argue that it has so little Arnica that it shouldn't be described as Arnica, but you'd have to convince a judge of this. I'd hope you'd have a good case but I honestly don't really know. Unfortunately the realistic way to avoid this happening was for your girlfriend to realize what she was buying, which I'm guessing she will next time!

I wouldn't want them banned as I believe that people should be free to sell whatever they like as long as the product is as described. My main issue with this is that it looks like it contains Arnica. I think that most people in the country would believe that Arnica is present, like mysteries1984, and I can't really blame them. It really does look like you're buying Arnica and it takes some specialized knowledge to know that it doesn't.

Technically, the product was "as described" but the description is such that most people would be mislead. It's like having Arnica in large letters on the label and then underneath in small letters stating "is contained here whenever the following equation has rational roots: x^2 +2x - 1 = 0"

mysteries1984

mcmoustache wrote: »

I wouldn't want them banned as I believe that people should be free to sell whatever they like as long as the product is as described. My main issue with this is that it looks like it contains Arnica. I think that most people in the country would believe that Arnica is present, like mysteries1984, and I can't really blame them. It really does look like you're buying Arnica and it takes some specialized knowledge to know that it doesn't.

Technically, the product was "as described" but the description is such that most people would be mislead. It's like having Arnica in large letters on the label and then underneath in small letters stating "is contained here whenever the following equation has rational roots: x^2 +2x - 1 = 0"

I don't follow, my understanding was that it contains arnica, albeit in a very small dose?

amacachi

mysteries1984 wrote: »

I don't follow, my understanding was that it contains arnica, albeit in a very small dose?

The dose is so small that it's almost impossible there could possibly be any in it. The concentration is C30. That doesn't mean 1 in 30 it means 1 in 10^30 or 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

mysteries1984

amacachi wrote: »

The dose is so small that it's almost impossible there could possibly be any in it. The concentration is C30. That doesn't mean 1 in 30 it means 1 in 10^30 or 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

Thanks - I knew it wasn't 1 in 30 though, I knew it was 1 in a few million +. I didn't know the statistic.

Regardless, doesn't that mean there is some in it? Even if it is a small amount? That's what I'm getting at, and what I meant in my original post. It may be diluted but it's still in existence.

amacachi

mysteries1984 wrote: »

Thanks - I knew it wasn't 1 in 30 though, I knew it was 1 in a few million +. I didn't know the statistic.

Regardless, doesn't that mean there is some in it? Even if it is a small amount? That's what I'm getting at, and what I meant in my original post. It may be diluted but it's still in existence.

What size is the container?

100ml of water has about 3.35*10^24 atoms so dividing that into 10^30 there would be a single molecule of arnica per every 300,000 100ml doses.

mysteries1984

amacachi wrote: »

What size is the container?

100ml of water has about 3.35*10^24 atoms so dividing that into 10^30 there would be a single molecule of arnica per every 300,000 100ml doses.

I don't know, I'm not the OP.

What I meant was that there is some there - whether the amount is enough to 'work' if you're a believer in homoeopathy or not obviously isn't the issue here, but my point is that there is some there.

Zab

amacachi wrote: »

What size is the container?

100ml of water has about 3.35*10^24 atoms so dividing that into 10^30 there would be a single molecule of arnica per every 300,000 100ml doses.

10^60 actually. Ha!

amacachi

Zab wrote: »

10^60 actually. Ha!

Heh, deadly.

So if the container of what the OP was talking about was 100mls we'd expect 1 in 300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 such containers to have any arnica whatsoever in it. In other words it's pretty unlikely there's any. :pac:

partyatmygaff

My view on this would be fairly simple. If you send the product in for analysis by a Pharmacist and no measurable quantity of arnica can be detected, the manufacturer should be accused and prosecuted for false advertisement.

If I took a 100mL sample of water from the sea I could claim it contained gold, silver, platinum, plutonium and every single element and naturally occurring compound known to to man if it only had to be at a concentration of 30C. Homeopathic remedies are by and large a load of BS. If people want to buy them by all means they can but they should at least know the exact contents of what they're buying.

Zab

mysteries1984 wrote: »

I don't know, I'm not the OP.

What I meant was that there is some there - whether the amount is enough to 'work' if you're a believer in homoeopathy or not obviously isn't the issue here, but my point is that there is some there.

No, there's the "possibility" of some though. Let's say you have a million red balls and you throw in one green ball. You then separate them all between 10 containers and sell all 10 as a "1:1,000,000 green ball to red ball mix". Clearly only one of the ten containers actually contains a green ball as there aren't enough of them to go around. This is actually a 10% chance of a container containing a green ball as the large numbers are easier to picture, homoeopathic 30c remedies have a much much smaller chance (as demonstrated by amacachi above).

Homeopaths know this! They claim the water has a "memory" of the arnica even though there's no arnica actually left. In fact, this is intentional on their behalf. It's not that they're being stingy with the arnica.

mysteries1984

Zab wrote: »

No, there's the "possibility" of some though. Let's say you have a million red balls and you throw in one green ball. You then separate them all between 10 containers and sell all 10 as a "1:1,000,000 green ball to red ball mix". Clearly only one of the ten containers actually contains a green ball as there aren't enough of them to go around. This is actually a 10% chance of a container containing a green ball as the large numbers are easier to picture, homoeopathic 30c remedies have a much much smaller chance (as demonstrated by amacachi above).

Homeopaths know this! They claim the water has a "memory" of the arnica even though there's no arnica actually left. In fact, this is intentional on their behalf. It's not that they're being stingy with the arnica.

Oh, I get you now. Sorry all, anything statistical and my brain walks out of the room. I always knew it was very diluted, but I didn't know it was so diluted as to the possibility that there's none at all. Actually, the likelihood that there's none at all. This is an eye opener.

Lads, sorry for derailing the thread with my witterings. You learn something new every day.

mcmoustache

At 30C, you'd need to consume 10 billion earths worth of water volume to get one molecule of active ingredient.

You're more likely to get the active ingredient from breathing the air around you.

This product contains no arnica.

Oryx

The water is then added to sugar tablets where it evaporates anyway. Still, this isn't really a consumer issue as there is no breach of a law, but it is an example of the miseducation of a lot of people who buy this stuff thinking its something its not. As mysteries showed.

keithclancy

I would prefer that they sell it and let the consumer make the choice than ban it like they did with St Johns Wort.

Most people do not know the difference between Homeopathy and Herbal Remedies, its all throw in there with the 'weird stuff'

Whatever the remedy, whether it be a Placebo effect people or not, are entitled to believe in what they want to believe in.

While I don't believe in Homeopathy I don't try to tell people they are idiots for believing in it either.

Zab

After some thought I think they should have to sell it as "Water with memory of Arnica" rather than "Arnica 30C". I agree there's no reason to stop the sale, the only question is about the packaging/advertising.

partyatmygaff

Zab wrote: »

After some thought I think they should have to sell it as "Water with memory of Arnica" rather than "Arnica 30C". I agree there's no reason to stop the sale, the only question is about the packaging/advertising.

By that same idea, any sample of water on the planet will "remember" millions of substances.

A bottle of water would have the memory of urine, faeces, uranium, gold, silver, arnica, actual medicines, decaying fish e.t.c.

Nanazolie

The prices of homeopatic remedies in this country are unbelievable. And don't mention higher wages or higher taxes because in this case I don't think they can justify the difference. A tube of arnica 9CH in France is 1.80€. Same for most homeopatic remedies. I don't even remember seeing 30CH dilution. They would be pretty ineffective at this level.

Get someone who travels to mainland Europe to bring you a few tubes, they last for ages and if you play sports they will come handy for a lot of bumps and bruises. Also for tired muscles.

partyatmygaff

Nanazolie wrote: »

The prices of homeopatic remedies in this country are unbelievable. And don't mention higher wages or higher taxes because in this case I don't think they can justify the difference. A tube of arnica 9CH in France is 1.80€. Same for most homeopatic remedies. I don't even remember seeing 30CH dilution. They would be pretty ineffective at this level.

And somehow 9CH is more effective?

Why not just rub a bit of tap water on your skin? It probably has the exact same concentration of arnica and all that undulation and turbulence in the oceans and systems it passed through count more than any succusion.

Get someone who travels to mainland Europe to bring you a few tubes, they last for ages and if you play sports they will come handy for a lot of bumps and bruises. Also for tired muscles.

Why not save your money and buy real medicine? Otherwise you're just buying ridiculously expensive water and cream base.

Nanazolie

partyatmygaff wrote: »

And somehow 9CH is more effective?

Why not just rub a bit of tap water on your skin? It probably has the exact same concentration of arnica and all that undulation and turbulence in the oceans and systems it passed through count more than any succusion.


Why not save your money and buy real medicine? Otherwise you're just buying ridiculously expensive water and cream base.

I thought this thread wasn't about discussing the values of homeopathy?
That I choose to believe in it is my own business, and I do consider it REAL medecine. Homeopathy is far more established in mainland Europe than here and you can find it in every pharmacy, with most GPs and paedetricians recommending it. There are times when only good old penicillin will do, but for minor ailments I like to avoid pumping antibiotics, painkillers and anti inflamatories in my body. I find that giving arnica tablets to a child when he/she bumps his/her head helps with the swelling, or when you run a marathon it definitively helps with muscles soreness. But again, that's a personal choice.

Oryx

Nanazolie wrote: »

I thought this thread wasn't about discussing the values of homeopathy?
That I choose to believe in it is my own business, and I do consider it REAL medecine. Homeopathy is far more established in mainland Europe than here and you can find it in every pharmacy, with most GPs and paedetricians recommending it. There are times when only good old penicillin will do, but for minor ailments I like to avoid pumping antibiotics, painkillers and anti inflamatories in my body. I find that giving arnica tablets to a child when he/she bumps his/her head helps with the swelling, or when you run a marathon it definitively helps with muscles soreness. But again, that's a personal choice.

But when you say arnica, are you talking about actual arnica or a homeopathic dilution of arnica?

(valid to the thread, I think as its about the understanding and descriptions given of homeopathic products)

partyatmygaff

Nanazolie wrote: »

I thought this thread wasn't about discussing the values of homeopathy?

Indeed. It's about product description. Describing something for sale as a medicine or remedy when there is no evidence to support that assertion is an issue of false advertisement and invalid description.

That I choose to believe in it is my own business, and I do consider it REAL medecine. Homeopathy is far more established in mainland Europe than here and you can find it in every pharmacy, with most GPs and paedetricians recommending it.

I bet they also recommend some Obecalp 500mg too. It's a real cure-all drug, just like "homeopathy" (Read: An expensive placebo that claims to be more than it really is). Just because the placebo effect is an effective way to deal with some conditions does not make it suitable to be described as a medicine.

There are times when only good old penicillin will do, but for minor ailments I like to avoid pumping antibiotics, painkillers and anti inflamatories in my body. I find that giving arnica tablets to a child when he/she bumps his/her head helps with the swelling, or when you run a marathon it definitively helps with muscles soreness. But again, that's a personal choice.

Don't tell me you get antibiotics for treating muscle pain? What do penicillin antibiotics have to do with painkillers, anti-inflammatories and bottles of water that may or may not have once been in contact with a single molecule of an inert substance (Arnica)?

In any case, there's a new homeopathic remedy out that allegedly cures everything. It contains the memory of pretty much every substance that has ever existed (Including arnica) and best of all won't cost you a cent. There's no pill to swallow either. I believe it's called tap water.

drkpower

Homeopathic products are subject to registration with the Irish MEdicines Board and part of that registration involves the IMB reviewing and approving the product labelling. While on the face of it, the reference to Arnica on the label would clearly in breach of the sale of goods legislation (in that it is clearly not a sale by description), in circumstances where the product labelling is pre-approved by the IMB, under specific legislation, I would be very surprised if the courts would find it to be unlawful.

It really is quite hilarious that homeopathic medicines are regulated by a medicines Regulator. It i even funnier that under the provisions of the relevant medicines legislation, a product authorisation may only be granted to a medicinal product where satisfactory evidence of safety, quality and efficacy has been established but in the case of homeopathic medicinal products, however, a product registration may be granted where satisfactory evidence of safety and quality has been established.

Anyone notice the difference, kids.....

Madness!!