No adults home ... What would u do?

Knit wit

Just a little more information. The lady in question is not irish. Her husband has returned to their home country leaving her with the four children here in Ireland. The eldest child was born prior to the 2005 ruling guaranteeing automatic citizenship without the habitual residency clause. The subsequent children are Irish citizens because the family are living here for many years ... The mother is working (legally) in Ireland. My comment about her needing support was a genuine one ... She clearly did not foresee the potential risk to her children by leaving them home alone. I don't know whether or not it is acceptable practice in her home country - maybe it is? I believe now that the risks and consequences of her actions have been explained to her the incident will not be repeated but it has made me think again about how isolated she is. I wonder are we too quick to vilify parents without looking at the society as a whole and how we regard struggling parents?

KittyeeTrix

meemeep wrote: »

Sorry bout that!

No bother

Sleepy

dvpower wrote: »

You think, based on the very limited information we have, that the best option for the kids is to remove them from their mother? :eek:

In cases of parental child abuse, yes, I believe the best thing to do is remove the child from that parent.

I class abandoning 3 children under the age of 5 as child abuse. I make no apologies for that.

dvpower

Sleepy wrote: »

In cases of parental child abuse, yes, I believe the best thing to do is remove the child from that parent.

I class abandoning 3 children under the age of 5 as child abuse. I make no apologies for that.

You know hardly any of the facts about this case, but you're able to categorise it as abandonment (and child abuse:eek:)?

So, perhaps she had a sick child and popped out to the local Spar for some Calpol and left them alone for 20 minutes.
You'd have the kids removed into a state system that can hardly cope with much more serious cases rather that providing some support and advise to the mother. Do you honestly think that the kids would be better off?

Sleepy

Why on earth wouldn't you bring the kids with you to the corner shop?

The only answer I can think of is "for convenience". A parent who puts their convenience ahead of the safety of their children is not a fit parent imho. I didn't rule out the possibility of the parent in question being provided with assistance once the childrens' safety is ensured and the children being returned to her once she's proven herself a fit parent.

The amount of lives that are squandered, doomed to a life of being a leach on society, unable to have a positive contribution because of the stigma of removing a child from it's mother is a tragedy imho. We fail the children of our society when we allow unfit parents to drag them up.

egan2020

Definition of neglect

Neglect can be defined in terms of an omission, where the child suffers significant harm or impairment of development by being deprived of food, clothing, warmth, hygiene, intellectual stimulation, supervision and safety, attachment to and affection from adults, and/or medical care.

Harm can be defined as the ill-treatment or the impairment of the health or development of a child. Whether it is significant is determined by the child's health and development as compared to that which could reasonably be expected of a child of similar age.


Neglect generally becomes apparent in different ways over a period of time rather than at one specific point. For example, a child who suffers a series of minor injuries may not be having his or her needs met in terms of necessary supervision and safety. A child whose height or weight is significantly below average may be being deprived of adequate nutrition. A child who consistently misses school may be being deprived of intellectual stimulation.

The threshold of significant harm is reached when the child's needs are neglected to the extent that his or her well-being and/or development are severely affected.

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Find_a_Service/Children_and_Family_Services/childrenfirst/concerns/


The above is taken from the HSE website. So although leaving the children alone unsupervised is a form of neglect, it appears that that on its own does not constitute full on child abuse as it would have to be an ongoing thing.

I think its a bit harsh and very judgemental of some posters to say that the children should taken from the mother and put into care based on one episode. For all we know she could be a brilliant mother who genuinely didn't realise that was she was doing was wrong. The mother in question is from another country and maybe its common practice to leave children for a short time.

She has received a warning from the Gardai and according to the OP they were confident that it would not be happening again so maybe she honestly didn't believe she was doing anything wrong but realises now that it's not acceptable to leave them alone again.

dvpower

Sleepy wrote: »

Why on earth wouldn't you bring the kids with you to the corner shop?

The only answer I can think of is "for convenience".

Perhaps the child(ren) was ill and she thought leaving them alone was the best course of action. Perhaps (as indicated by the OP) she didn't appreciate the potential dangers.

I think almost everyone will agree that leaving kids home alone is a very bad idea. But to take children into a creaking care system hardly seem to be the optimum solution.

Sleepy wrote: »

The amount of lives that are squandered, doomed to a life of being a leach on society, unable to have a positive contribution because of the stigma of removing a child from it's mother is a tragedy imho. We fail the children of our society when we allow unfit parents to drag them up.

Raising kids in the Irish care system is a fairly good way of increasing their chances of leading a squandered life.

theg81der

Knit wit wrote: »

Just a little more information. The lady in question is not irish. Her husband has returned to their home country leaving her with the four children here in Ireland. The eldest child was born prior to the 2005 ruling guaranteeing automatic citizenship without the habitual residency clause. The subsequent children are Irish citizens because the family are living here for many years ... The mother is working (legally) in Ireland. My comment about her needing support was a genuine one ... She clearly did not foresee the potential risk to her children by leaving them home alone. I don't know whether or not it is acceptable practice in her home country - maybe it is? I believe now that the risks and consequences of her actions have been explained to her the incident will not be repeated but it has made me think again about how isolated she is. I wonder are we too quick to vilify parents without looking at the society as a whole and how we regard struggling parents?

Who minds them when she goes to work?.......

In some culture they do think this is acceptable. My aunt lectured in one of the "compound"(for want of a better word?) that was occupied by Nigerians and she was absolutely frustrated to the point of leaving at the way they treated their children, not to generalise I`m sure it wasn`t all but the vast majority. They repeated tried to explain why they could not leave their chuldren alone when they came to class to no avail, like that very young children that the majority of people wouldn`t leave for a minute let alone all day.

dvpower

theg81der wrote: »

Who minds them when she goes to work?.......

Her childcare provider presumably.

theg81der wrote: »

[...]that the majority of people wouldn`t leave for a minute let alone all day.

I regularly leave my young children unsupervised for more than a minute. I might be down at the end of the garden for 10 minutes at a go without checking on them. [Every night, I leave them completely unsupervised while I sleep soundly in my bed]

There is a whole range here. From leaving kids unsupervised for a few minutes while parents are in a different room, to popping out to the local shop for 10 minutes while, say, an 8 year old is left at home, to going out to do a days work with infants left at home.
I don't think its easy to formulate the cut off point where one thing is reasonable and the other is unacceptable.

theg81der

dvpower wrote: »

Her childcare provider presumably.


I regularly leave my young children unsupervised for more than a minute. I might be down at the end of the garden for 10 minutes at a go without checking on them. [Every night, I leave them completely unsupervised while I sleep soundly in my bed]

There is a whole range here. From leaving kids unsupervised for a few minutes while parents are in a different room, to popping out to the local shop for 10 minutes while, say, an 8 year old is left at home, to going out to do a days work with infants left at home.
I don't think its easy to formulate the cut off point where one thing is reasonable and the other is unacceptable.

Ok fair point but can we at least all agree that leaving a 5 year old and 2 three year olds to go shopping is very much at the radical end of that scale, dare I say it clearly not acceptable?

Look I`m pregnant and I have a step child there is no circumstance that would ever lead me to do this and my friend with children are the same. They would text me would I mind coming down while they shower which of course I have no problem doing.

dvpower

theg81der wrote: »

Ok fair point but can we at least all agree that leaving a 5 year old and 2 three year olds to go shopping is very much at the radical end of that scale, dare I say it clearly not acceptable?

Absolutely.
The question then is how to deal with someone who has done this.

I'm presuming that the Gardai have made a report to the HSE, and that they will have a child protection worker call on the mother and carry out some kind of assessment and, at the very least, impress on her the dangers of leaving her children unattended. I presume that there is some record of the incident in the PULSE system, so that if any future cause for concern come to light, dots are joined.
I think that's probably the best course of action; not seizing the children and putting them in state care. But I fear that all that actually happens in these cases is that the Guard tell the mother to be more careful and its left at that.

Sleepy

I'd fear it's exactly that dvpower. In only the past year I can think of a number of fatal neglect or abuse cases being in the news where parents had previously been reported to social services directly or indirectly killed their children.

Moonbeam

I was thinking maybe she was at work and she had no child care,just because she told the Garda that called that she was shopping does not mean that she was.
I have a brilliant jsut gone 3 year old and have a shop 100m from my front door and no way I would even run over for a second with out bringing her and her sister.
I would leave the 3 year old watch a tv programme or read a book while I am in the shower though, but not minding the 1 year old.
I think that maybe instead of being intentional neglect that the original psoter might be right and she might need help.
We can not judge based on the facts as we do not know them,yes it is wrong what she did but she may be suffering from mental illness .

Sleepy

And should someone suffering serious mental illness be left in charge of a child?

To my mind, the children's physical safety has to come before all else in these cases.

Android 666

How do you make the leap from going to the shops to having a mental illness? All people are doing here is a lot conjecture which is not based on any evidence. You'll have yourselves convinced that she starves and beats her kids if you keep going at this rate.

LittleBook

Knit wit wrote: »

She clearly did not foresee the potential risk to her children by leaving them home alone. I don't know whether or not it is acceptable practice in her home country - maybe it is?

While it seems obvious to me that it is reckless to leave three children under the age of 5 alone while you pop to the shops, it's possible that it genuinely didn't seem reckless to this woman and I'd like to believe it won't happen again.

I remember reading about a Danish mother who was arrested, strip searched and her daughter taken into care for 4 days in New York because they left her outside a restaurant asleep in her stroller while they went in. They claimed they could see her the whole time and that it was common practice in Denmark to do this.

Something similar then happened to a Swedish mother Swedish mother and apparently "police in Sweden are doubtful as to whether the incident would be considered a police matter in Sweden".

Now I wouldn't dream of leaving a child in a stroller outside a restaurant, it only takes a second to snatch a baby. But it seems to be acceptable in other European countries.

Daisy M

I am suprised that so many people are eager to find excuses for the mothers behaviour. It is very possible that what happened on Saturday is a regular occurance. My sympathy is mainly with the children and with the 9 yr old boy in particular who is old enough to be aware that the gardai were called and it was his friends mother who did so. He could be worrying over his friend telling other kids or been taken from his mother.

I know a woman who left her kids age 4 and 6 while she went and did her shopping. She left a fire on and something the kids were playing with caught light luckily kids got out and ran for help. When said mum arrived home she was angry at the older child as he was in charge. There is nothing wrong with this woman except she sees bringing her kids to town as too much work. Over the years I have bumped into two women in town who left kids at home and popped out while they were sleeping to get shopping. Again both were two women who found it easier to go alone to town leaving kids alone.

dvpower

Daisy M wrote: »

I am suprised that so many people are eager to find excuses for the mothers behaviour.

I think you might be mixing up threads. Where exactly are you seeing people excusing the mother's behaviour?

Daisy M

dvpower wrote: »

You know hardly any of the facts about this case, but you're able to categorise it as abandonment (and child abuse:eek:)?

left them alonSo, perhaps she had a sick child and popped out to the local Spar for some Calpol and e for 20 minutes.
You'd have the kids removed into a state system that can hardly cope with much more serious cases rather that providing some support and advise to the mother. Do you honestly think that the kids would be better off?

dvpower wrote: »

Perhaps the child(ren) was ill and she thought leaving them alone was the best course of action. Perhaps (as indicated by the OP) she didn't appreciate the potential dangers.

I think almost everyone will agree that leaving kids home alone is a very bad idea. But to take children into a creaking care system hardly seem to be the optimum solution.


Raising kids in the Irish care system is a fairly good way of increasing their chances of leading a squandered life.

dvpower wrote: »

I think you might be mixing up threads. Where exactly are you seeing people excusing the mother's behaviour?

Eh you, just you actually. If the kids were ill it would be even worse to leave them alone plus she knew an adult would be coming to the house bringing her older child home if she was that desperate she would have asked them to wait for a few min.

egan2020

Daisy M wrote: »

Eh you, just you actually. If the kids were ill it would be even worse to leave them alone plus she knew an adult would be coming to the house bringing her older child home if she was that desperate she would have asked them to wait for a few min.

Based on the tiny amount of information we have been given, the fact that she knew there was an adult coming to the house would indicate to me that she honestly didn't see any harm in what she was doing. If she was aware that it was not acceptable to the extent that the other adult would call in the authorities, she would have made sure she was there or made arrangements to have her son collected from the OP. The other case is that she doesn't give a **** whether the children are safe and looked after and if that's the case, its up to the HSE to kick in and deal with the matter accordingly.

Daisy M

egan2020 wrote: »

Based on the tiny amount of information we have been given, the fact that she knew there was an adult coming to the house would indicate to me that she honestly didn't see any harm in what she was doing. If she was aware that it was not acceptable to the extent that the other adult would call in the authorities, she would have made sure she was there or made arrangements to have her son collected from the OP. The other case is that she doesn't give a **** whether the children are safe and looked after and if that's the case, its up to the HSE to kick in and deal with the matter accordingly.

That is possible yes but it is also possible that she was caught out.Whatever her reason there is no getting away from the fact that 3 very young children were left in a vunerable position. Parenting courses should be mandatory. If all parents had to do a parenting course (for free) when they had a child and every second year after to help deal with each stage then we would all learn, possibly build up connections with other parents and know where to go for help. If one of the conditions of receiving child benefit payment was doing a parenting course then most parents would do the course.

dvpower

Daisy M wrote: »

Eh you, just you actually.

I'm not at all excusing her behaviour - I, like you, don't have the facts.


Its funny that you can quote my post as evidence of excusing her behaviour, but fail to read what I explicitly said in the very same post.

dvpower wrote: »

I think almost everyone will agree that leaving kids home alone is a very bad idea.