The Kilgarven bog field feud.

Jimmy Garlic

Will it be settled old skool with cudgels?.

http://examiner.ie/ireland/warnings-the-field-could-be-recreated-over-gaa-land-row-182929.html

I would love to see a good old fashioned faction fight with cudgels and all. It is a part of our heritage that has been sadly neglected in recent years.

The Catholic Church has been warned it can expect scenes reminiscent of John B Keane’s The Field if it sells a village property in Kerry to anyone other than the local GAA club.
There has been a furious reaction in Kilgarvan to a decision to offer the old presbytery and 12 acres of land for sale on the open market, despite an offer of €205,000 from the local club.
At a public meeting to discuss the stand-off, it was proposed that the Bishop of Kerry be told that unless the GAA club was allowed buy the land, the community was not happy for it to be sold to anyone else.
However, a statement by the diocese insisted it was both a moral and legal requirement to secure the best possible price for the property that the market could offer.

Lapin

Actually, whats the point in insisting the priests gaff goes to the GAA ?

They know nothing about hurling (proper GAA stuff) down in Kerry.

Sindri

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjKJnsMwHk0

wendell borton

Lapin wrote: »

Actually, whats the point in insisting the priests gaff goes to the GAA ?

They know nothing about hurling (proper GAA stuff) down in Kerry.

They play hurling in Killgarven.:p

SeaFields

Lapin wrote: »

They know nothing about hurling (proper GAA stuff) down in Kerry.

I think they have the only hurling team in south kerry.


Anyway their club secretary was on radio kerry last week. The interviewer asked what would they do if they werent sold the extra land.

He said "have you seen John B Keanes "The Field"? I'll say no more"

Jimmy Garlic

Imagine being sane and living in Kilgarven, it must be pure hell. Seriously, it is more akin to a feudal fiefdom than anything else. Ignorant, backward, hillbilly bigshots all over the place.

johnr1

SeaFields wrote: »

I think they have the only hurling team in south kerry.


Anyway their club secretary was on radio kerry last week. The interviewer asked what would they do if they werent sold the extra land.

He said "have you seen John B Keanes "The Field"? I'll say no more"

They are one of at least three dual clubs in South Kerry. There are several hurling clubs in North Kerry.

One of the chief protagonists in this is a fairly controversial figure, prone to hyperbolic statements at times.

There was another nasty rumour about this as well, - as to who the higher offer was. This was debunked during the week. I'm not going to repeat it here.

.

Sindri

johnr1 wrote: »

They are one of at least three dual clubs in South Kerry. There are several hurling clubs in North Kerry.

One of the chief protagonists in this is a fairly controversial figure, prone to hyperbolic statements at times.

There was another nasty rumour about this as well, - as to who the higher offer was. This was debunked during the week. I'm not going to repeat it here.

.

Was it an outsider?:D

johnr1

Sindri wrote: »

Was it an outsider?:D

:D

No.

SeaFields

johnr1 wrote: »

They are one of at least three dual clubs in South Kerry.

Who are the other two as a matter of interest? I'm living by Cahersiveen for the last year and know only Kilgarvan? Laune Rangers had one but its merged with Fossa I believe. Cant think of any others.

johnr1

SeaFields wrote: »

Who are the other two as a matter of interest? I'm living by Cahersiveen for the last year and know only Kilgarvan? Laune Rangers had one but its merged with Fossa I believe. Cant think of any others.

Kenmare, and St Brendans, which is afaik based in Killarney with players who would play football with Crokes, Spa, or Legion.

If Fossa have one, then that's four.

wendell borton

Sindri wrote: »

Was it an outsider?:D

Here's a clue.

ToxicPaddy

So if I understand this correctly, a piece of land is being put up for sale beside the existing club grounds, the local Grab All Assoc are demanding they be sold something at a price they want to buy it at?? :rolleyes:

Who cares about real market value or the fact another offer, a better offer, has been tabled.. they demand it be sold to them.. :rolleyes:

Dr. Manhattan

That club secretary should be investigated by the Gardaí for issuing threats. Who the fúck do they think they are to demand a sale on their terms with menaces?

mikemac1

If a Yank buys the land does it mean he'll get murdered :eek:

JONJO THE MISER

:mad:OUTSIDERS, are these the same OUTSIDERS who....................

johnr1

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

So if I understand this correctly, a piece of land is being put up for sale beside the existing club grounds, the local Grab All Assoc are demanding they be sold something at a price they want to buy it at?? :rolleyes:

Who cares about real market value or the fact another offer, a better offer, has been tabled.. they demand it be sold to them.. :rolleyes:

I think that in sparsely populated rural communities where the demographic was in the past vastly RC, and in reality still is, the community would probably have donated monies over generations to support the Catholic Church which apparently owns the land.

It's not too much of a stretch that the same community, and Kilgarvan have a very strong community spirit there, would feel that there is some moral obligation that this land go to expand the ONLY sporting facilities available in their area.

Legally they probably wouldn't have a leg to stand on but it would probably serve the better good than some guy expanding his cow herd or building more unwanted houses or whatever.

.

Doc Ruby

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

I would love to see a good old fashioned faction fight with cudgels and all. It is a part of our heritage that has been sadly neglected in recent years.

Don't know about the faction fights, but I'd love to see a resurgence in the traditional Irish martial art of the bata, descended from bladed arts. Some of the WMA guys have been making a very credible effort to revive it based on accounts of the time and existing practitioners.

Back on topic, "lol".

oppenheimer1

I can actually understand where the club is coming from though. Over the years the people of the parish would have donated money to the church to buy that property, and although unwritten it was probably an expectation that the community would have use of it. Many in the club and community would see this as buying back land that is already rightfully theirs (whether you believe that to be right or wrong is another matter).

Back in the day a huge mistake was made by communities when they were expanding religious and community facilities. The money should not have been given to the church to purchase the land directly but by a community association who would hold it in trust for the whole community.

RiseToTheTop

The Chinese might make a bit.

Or else the Greeks.

RiseToTheTop

The Chinese might make a bit.

Or else the Greeks.

ToxicPaddy

johnr1 wrote: »

I think that in sparsely populated rural communities where the demographic was in the past vastly RC, and in reality still is, the community would probably have donated monies over generations to support the Catholic Church which apparently owns the land.

It's not too much of a stretch that the same community, and Kilgarvan have a very strong community spirit there, would feel that there is some moral obligation that this land go to expand the ONLY sporting facilities available in their area.

Legally they probably wouldn't have a leg to stand on but it would probably serve the better good than some guy expanding his cow herd or building more unwanted houses or whatever.

.

I do understand to a certain degree but making threats in the media is a bit much isn't it?

According to the article, the club in question had made plans for this land that they didn't own so it seems they counted their chickens a little early.

Now without knowing all the facts things could have been promised in the past, but unless its in some legal contract somewhere they haven't got a leg to stand on and trying to throw their weight around and threatening people is hardly the way to go about it.

Personally, this could backfire big time on the club as with most rural towns, the local church and the local GAA clubs are usually the centre of the a lot of events. So this could divide opinion and people in rural towns have long memories when it comes to things like this.

mikemac1

A Corkonian should buy this land, just to act the troll

ToxicPaddy

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Back in the day a huge mistake was made by communities when they were expanding religious and community facilities. The money should not have been given to the church to purchase the land directly but by a community association who would hold it in trust for the whole community.

That would have been a much better idea.

People seem to forget that the catholic church is its own entity and not owned by anyone..

They have their own bank, own property etc, its run like a business and they have their own interests. If people donated to the church it was because they wanted to support it. I cant say I'm a fan of the catholic church in any shape or form, but at the end of the day just cause they donated money doesn't mean they are entitled to anything from it.

Probably not a popular view but a realistic one.

johnr1

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

I do understand to a certain degree but making threats in the media is a bit much isn't it?

According to the article, the club in question had made plans for this land that they didn't own so it seems they counted their chickens a little early.

Now without knowing all the facts things could have been promised in the past, but unless its in some legal contract somewhere they haven't got a leg to stand on and trying to throw their weight around and threatening people is hardly the way to go about it.

Personally, this could backfire big time on the club as with most rural towns, the local church and the local GAA clubs are usually the centre of the a lot of events. So this could divide opinion and people in rural towns have long memories when it comes to things like this.

Yes Paddy, I agree that making threats like this is ridiculous, - if it happened. It doesent help their case at all, look at my first post on the thread and you'll see what I said about one of the people involved.
I don't want to get into it any more as I still have family living not too far away.

.

ToxicPaddy

johnr1 wrote: »

Yes Paddy, I agree that making threats like this is ridiculous, - if it happened. It doesent help their case at all, look at my first post on the thread and you'll see what I said about one of the people involved.
I don't want to get into it any more as I still have family living not too far away.

.

Oh yeah you're better off staying well away from this one.. could get very nasty with local opinion and politics involved..

mikemac1

johnr1 wrote: »

There was another nasty rumour about this as well, - as to who the higher offer was. This was debunked during the week. I'm not going to repeat it here.

.

I'd like to say there was a nasty rumour about a higher offer, I won't say how it happened or who was involved but it was nasty...

Why post it so?

You giving the locals who most of us don't know a reputation but won't give any more information so we can judge ourselves

Either say it fully or don't say it at all

amacachi

However, a statement by the diocese insisted it was both a moral and legal requirement to secure the best possible price for the property that the market could offer.

The Catholic Church believes that it's a moral requirement to operate on a free market. Time for me to become a Communist I think.

johnr1

mikemac1 wrote: »

I'd like to say there was a nasty rumour about a higher offer, I won't say how it happened or who was involved but it was nasty...

Why post it so?

You giving the locals who most of us don't know a reputation but won't give any more information so we can judge ourselves

Either say it fully or don't say it at all

Sure, - repeat lies, and leave myself open to libel law. Great idea Mike.

I've contributed information and opinion to the thread. What did you contribute ?

Lastly, if you're so dumb that you can't figure it out from the clues on the thread then too bad for you.

.

Dr. Manhattan

johnr1 wrote: »

Sure, - repeat lies, and leave myself open to libel law. Great idea Mike.

I've contributed information and opinion to the thread. What did you contribute ?

Lastly, if you're so dumb that you can't figure it out from the clues on the thread then too bad for you.

.

If you know they're lies, why mention them in the way you did? You referred to them as a rumour, not lies, very different things. If you knew them to be lies, why bring them up at all? How does that level of misinformation help?

johnr1

Dr. Manhattan wrote: »

If you know they're lies, why mention them in the way you did? You referred to them as a rumour, not lies, very different things. If you knew them to be lies, why bring them up at all? How does that level of misinformation help?

Actually you're probably right. I mentioned it because it was the bigger local talking point.

I think they are lies because I don't think the person mentioned would be so stupid as to go against local opinion when they depend heavily on it.

.

flanders1979

The church would have had no problem giving it to them years ago.
From the rare dealings I have with religion I find the church acting like a dying wasp these days. Their reputation is in tatters and its all our fault apparently.

robp

Its very difficult to sympatise with those who bully and threaten a "Field" scenario. If people donate money 20 years ago to a church they loose all control of the money, otherwise it wouldn't be donating. Even side from the legal requirements in times like these it would be imprudent to go with anything less than the best price. The church's mission is not subsidising football. The GAA should outbid them fair and square.

Noreen1

I don't agree with anyone making threats. On the other hand, the Church may own the property - but the Church is made up of its members ie. The Community.

Methinks, in this case, whoever made the decision to sell to the highest bidder, did so without consulting the Community. I would suggest that this would appear to be both unwise, and possibly a trifle arrogant.

Does anyone know whether there are any plans for some alternative Community development using the funds raised? There may be some genuine reasons for what appears to be a very rigid stance on the part of Church authorities.

Dr. Manhattan

Noreen1 wrote: »

I don't agree with anyone making threats. On the other hand, the Church may own the property - but the Church is made up of its members ie. The Community.

No it's not, it's made up of practising Catholics. The local community is more than just that.

Noreen1 wrote: »

Methinks, in this case, whoever made the decision to sell to the highest bidder, did so without consulting the Community. I would suggest that this would appear to be both unwise, and possibly a trifle arrogant.

Why should they consult "the community"? Living down the road or being a member of the GAA doesn't qualify anyone to have an opinion on how the Church should manage its lands. More arrogant to think they should be consulted.


I'm no fan of any church, but how they manage their legally held assets is up to them, not a GAA club with its nose out of joint.

Mike 1972

Noreen1 wrote: »

On the other hand, the Church may own the property - but the Church is made up of its members ie. The Community.

I believe it was a former pope who pointed out that "the catholic church is not a democracy" ?

Noreen1

Dr. Manhattan wrote: »

No it's not, it's made up of practising Catholics. The local community is more than just that.

Fair enough. The Catholic Community, then.

Dr. Manhattan wrote: »

Why should they consult "the community"? Living down the road or being a member of the GAA doesn't qualify anyone to have an opinion on how the Church should manage its lands. More arrogant to think they should be consulted.


I'm no fan of any church, but how they manage their legally held assets is up to them, not a GAA club with its nose out of joint.

I couldn't care less about any GAA club, personally speaking.
However, since the Catholic Community undoubtedly contributed funds towards the original purchase, then imo, that same Community should be consulted about a: The disposal (or otherwise) of said assets, and b: The use of funds received as a result of said disposal.
The Hierarchy of the Church are the Shepherds of the flock - but they are also the servants of the flock. The latter appears to be ignored in this case - unless, as I queried, there are plans for a venture that would benefit the Community, using funds from the sale.

Seems simple, and reasonable, enough to me?

Noreen1

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I believe it was a former pope who pointed out that "the catholic church is not a democracy" ?

The Catholic Church is not a Democracy regarding it's teachings.

The Hierarchy of the Church are leaders when it comes to religious and moral authority - in all other things, they are the servants of the people.
Hence, when people contribute to property acquired by the Church, they do so with the expectation that said property will be used for the benefit of the Community - not so that the Church Hierarchy gains financial assets.
Therefore, it is reasonable that the local Community are consulted on the use of funds. It is not reasonable for any one group to demand that they, exclusively, gain from the use of these funds, without the agreement of the rest of the Community.

Spread

I feel lucky and will buy a few POWERBALL tickets tonight. If my numbers come up I'm bidding top dollar. Then put in for planning permission for a HoHouse. While that's going through ........ just a few containers lined with pink brocade, massage tables and happy endings all around. Incidentally, some ignoramus suggested that they don't play hurling in Kery! Ahem, what about when when we beat Wrexford 2 - 3 to 1 - 5 in the final?

johnr1

Noreen1 wrote: »

Fair enough. The Catholic Community, then.

I couldn't care less about any GAA club, personally speaking.
However, since the Catholic Community undoubtedly contributed funds towards the original purchase, then imo, that same Community should be consulted about a: The disposal (or otherwise) of said assets, and b: The use of funds received as a result of said disposal.
The Hierarchy of the Church are the Shepherds of the flock - but they are also the servants of the flock. The latter appears to be ignored in this case - unless, as I queried, there are plans for a venture that would benefit the Community, using funds from the sale.

Seems simple, and reasonable, enough to me?

Assets of an organisation like the RC church are usually not legally held by the local branch, club, or in this case priest. They are usually vested in the larger orginisation patrons, in this case I would think the Diocese of Kerry under the bishops control.
Kerry Diocese is I hear fairly poor in cash terms, so that might explain their desire to get as much as possible for it.

To the poster who suggested that "the GAA" should outbid the other, the money would again have to come from the local club as Croke Park or Central Council don't fund individual clubs.
Threats are wrong though, very wrong.

Curly Judge

By what means did the Church come to own the land in the first place?

Dyr

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Don't know about the faction fights, but I'd love to see a resurgence in the traditional Irish martial art of the bata, descended from bladed arts. Some of the WMA guys have been making a very credible effort to revive it based on accounts of the time and existing practitioners.

Back on topic, "lol".

Existing practitioners me hole :rolleyes:

Dudess

mikemac1 wrote: »

If a Yank buys the land does it mean he'll get murdered :eek:

Spoilers ffs! :mad:

:pac:

I'd say it's not that bleak - near Kenmare and Killarney, which are beautiful.
North Kerry though - shudder. My grandad was from there. Grim.

Doc Ruby

Bambi wrote: »

Existing practitioners me hole :rolleyes:

I've no particular interest in the state of your hole, thanks.

The modern practice of bataireacht has arisen amongst some practitioners from a desire to maintain or reinstate Irish family traditions, while for others a combination of historical and cultural interest has led to their interest.[9] Practitioners, which started independently of each other, exist in Ireland, the United States, Canada and Germany. Bataireacht has also gained popularity amongst non-Irish people, especially in the United States, as a form of self defense, especially as a cane or walking stick can be easily carried in modern society. As with most martial arts, multiple versions exist.

A few forms of bataireacht survive to this day, some of which are traditional styles specific to the family which carried them down through the years, like the "Rince an Bhata Uisce Bheatha" (whiskey stick dance) of the Doyle family[10] of Newfoundland, taught in Canada, the United-States and Germany, or the Antrim stick (Aontroim Bataireacht) which is taught in Canada, the United-States and France. Others styles have survived in the techniques used in the sport of hurling and in military sabre fencing.

Additionally, members of the Western Martial Arts movement have "reconstructed" styles using period martial arts manuals, historical newspaper articles, magazines, pictorial evidence and court documents. Surviving instructional manuals which describe some use of the shillelagh include those by Rowland Allanson-Winn and Donald Walker.[11]

Sindri

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I've no particular interest in the state of your hole, thanks.

This is the second time you have mentioned that on this thread? What infatuation (other than erotic) do you have in lads beatin' the shite out of each other with sticks?

Dr. Manhattan

Sindri wrote: »

This is the second time you have mentioned that on this thread? What infatuation (other than erotic) do you have in lads beatin' the shite out of each other with sticks?

Well the thread is about the Catholic Church and a hurling club :pac:

Doc Ruby

Sindri wrote: »

This is the second time you have mentioned that on this thread? What infatuation (other than erotic) do you have in lads beatin' the shite out of each other with sticks?

Mary mother of god and all the saints between us, can two grown men not lash one another with knobbly cudgels without being accused of homoeroticism in the Ireland of today, whats the place coming to at all.

johndaman66

Do people not realize that a major chunk of the GAA's wealth came from donations, sponsorship from local business and begging, begging outside many of the Church gates before Mass on a Sunday in my local area. Worse still they have taken to begging at the checkouts at the Supermarkets in more recent times, just fu*k off, do something more productive and let me do my shopping in peace.

Sorry now, but I don't have much time for the Church but even less for the GAA. I appreciate that a lot of people dig the GAA but not everybody does either. They have attained contributions and funding over the years to the detriment of other sports. Furthermore, why are they vigorously pursuing 12 acres when the average football pitch is 2 acres or little over. Most likely employing emotional blackmail to attain it at a knock down price in order to bolster their balance sheet if you ask me...