Geo- thermal costs

persie11

Hey guys,

We moved into a house with a geo-thermal system that does hot water and under floor heating. We were told that our electricity bill would be lower than an average bill plus we would have no oil costs.
Our 6 month total bill was nearly 1700€. We had a fairly mild winter, did laundry mist days but rairly used the dryer, I can't understand how it's so high.
Is this normal, €560 per bill?

BryanF

persie11 wrote: »

Is this normal, €560 per bill?

often a problem where there is not one point of contact with Geo-HP & UFH system- presuming it was specified correctly it may be wired/ plumbed wrong. when you say 'moved into', in many mid 00's houses, these systems were installed without adequate building fabric. so lets start with what size house? when was it built? where in the country are you? what did the installer have to say?

persie11

BryanF wrote: »

persie11 wrote: »

Is this normal, €560 per bill?

often a problem where there is not one point of contact with Geo-HP & UFH system- presuming it was specified correctly it may be wired/ plumbed wrong. when you say 'moved into', in many mid 00's houses, these systems were installed without adequate building fabric. so lets start with what size house? when was it built? where in the country are you? what did the installer have to say?

The house is a refurbished 2 storey farm cottage. It was done up less than 10yr ago. Its a 4 bedroom in tipp. We started renting 6 mths ago under the illusion that we'd save money, will be calling the installer in the morn but we had heating issues a few times and he came out and replaced different parts.

Troy McClure

persie11 wrote: »

Hey guys,
We were told that our electricity bill would be lower than an average bill plus we would have no oil costs.

Even with an efficient system I cant see how this could be. As you dont have oil/gas bills your ESB bill will be higher as it has to run the geo pump and I am guessing back up immersion.
That said yours are OTT. I am only saying this as you seem to be renting and it sounds like you were mis sold on this if you were told this.

trucker

I'm in the process of starting a new build and I was considering geo thermal. However, after speaking to an energy assessor we are thinking it might not be worth it. The assessor said that the electricity bill can be quite high, and if the house of insulated to a high standard, and we add solar panels, the energy costs should be affordable (about €500 a year).

badgerhowlin

Hi,

I have just got my geo thermal up and running for the past 3 weeks and i have been keeping a daily track on when its costing me each day.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Amy6xlLdiDpQdENDa0ZTdkM3S3hfc3BHeURYQ1ZWZkE

For 3 weeks the system was connected up wrong (inside temp was out side and out side was inside) and it was after using 300 units.

Your costs do seem really over the top.

bmm

badgerhowlin wrote: »

... (inside temp was out side and out side was inside) and it was after using 300 units.

Your costs do seem really over the top.

So it was taking heat out of your house and putting it outside ?

Surely the OP would have noticed his house getting colder ?

kilowhiskey

Hi Trucker,
I have a 4 bed house heated by geothermal GSHP. We moved in on 15th Dec 2011 and I've been keeping track of the total electricty costs since then. The house is timber frame with double glazing and is 2300sq ft in size. The system is a Neura GSHP and supplies underfloor heating and hot water. I operate it by setting 18C for 7am to 11am and 22C during the rest of the night. It manages OK except when the outside temp drops below 6C. We have 2 woodburning fires to supplement in winter.

So far to 24/4/2012 the total consumption for day is 1886KwHrs and night 2494KwHrs, I must stress this is for all electriity which is cooking, washing, lighting etc. I have estimated my annual bill for ESB supplier using the mean night and day comsumtion rate and including standing charge ( rural ) and PSO levy and 13.5% VAT will be €1250.

If want more detail let me know. Hope this helps.
Since 15th Dec the total

kilowhiskey

Sorry should read 7am to 11pm. ( Day meter rate period )

badgerhowlin

bmm wrote: »

So it was taking heat out of your house and putting it outside ?

Surely the OP would have noticed his house getting colder ?

No my HP was reading the out side temp(9-12 deg) as the inside temp and the inside temp as the outside(21-23 deg)

So the HP was nearly running all the time to get the outside(or what it thought the inside) temp up to its preset 20 deg.

PeteHeat

I have found a lot of heat pumps sold in this country use the best figures for the system when arriving at the COP instead of using the average temperatures for the location where the heat pump is installed.

That is why kilowhiskey finds his system does not work as well when temperatures drop below 6c.

I have found that the best way to install heat pumps are using a second heat source for when the temperatures drop below the optimum level for the heat pump.

Also they tend to be best suited to new builds as the all round insulation levels can be much higher than when installing in a house that is being refurbished.

I believe professional heat loss calculations are necessary when sizing a heat pump as opposed to the figures used by the manufacturers, the variables can be too wide to use base figures on their own.

Such variables include but not limited to the quality of the insulation installation (cold spots etc), the heating controls, preferably underfloor heating with step back thermostats in each room, using the heat pump to achieve hot water temperatures of 60c, it can be cheaper to use am immersion that the heat pump for heating a cylinder of water.

Like most systems they can work well when planned properly.

.

Captain Bligh

persie11 wrote: »

Hey guys,

We moved into a house with a geo-thermal system that does hot water and under floor heating. We were told that our electricity bill would be lower than an average bill plus we would have no oil costs.
Our 6 month total bill was nearly 1700€. We had a fairly mild winter, did laundry mist days but rairly used the dryer, I can't understand how it's so high.
Is this normal, €560 per bill?

Welcome to the great cod.

your bills seems high alright but you just joined the hundreds of others getting caught with this stuff every month.

the cost of all the installation, maintenance, and running simply cant pay itself back...... when you factor in the cost of the loan you used to buy it, usually mortgage over 30 yerar, interest and depreciation.

cost of power is only going one way. up up up. so is oil but at least you can monitor what you use. no money no oil no heat......V's....... no money, wasting heat, massive bill.....trouble. (im not for a second saying you cant afford it just some people cant)

now people are stuck with these yokes.

if you own the house, disconnect the system, install a boiler and watch your bill come down down down. in this way you are joininig the silent "opps got caught.....say nothing" gang.

i, off the top of my head, know of 6 families, "oh building a house...we'll heat it for 2p per day...so said the sales rep" disconnected the heat pumps.

good luck

BryanF

Captain Bligh wrote: »

Welcome to the great cod.

your bills seems high alright but you just joined the hundreds of others getting caught with this stuff every month.

the cost of all the installation, maintenance, and running simply cant pay itself back...... when you factor in the cost of the loan you used to buy it, usually mortgage over 30 yerar, interest and depreciation.

cost of power is only going one way. up up up. so is oil but at least you can monitor what you use. no money no oil no heat......V's....... no money, wasting heat, massive bill.....trouble. (im not for a second saying you cant afford it just some people cant)

now tpeople are stuck with these yokes.

if you own the house, disconnect the sysem, install a boiler and watch your bill come down down down. in this way you are joininig the silent "opps got caught.....say nothing" gang.

i, off the top of my head, know of 6 families, "oh building a house...we'll heat it for 2p per day...so said the sales rep" disconnected the heat pumps.

good luck

this is a very over simplistic view of the issues surrounding heat pumps!

IMO much of the ground source heat pump issues are due to there being very little joined-up thinking around their integration with highest of building fabric standards (a necessity) and no one competent person taking responsibility for the total heat system install - with that company liable if the claims do not become a reality.

the OP has stated that this is an OLD farm house 'done-up ten years ago - of course therre are high fuel costs - realistically what a re the chance the builders/ developer paid enough attention to building fabric an air-tightness? never mind the correct sizing or install of the system!

just look at the recent thread by the guy willing to forgo the min floor insulation regs to accommodate his underfloor heating! as you well know this sort of BS is widespread in our industry, and often what gives renewable (I use this word loosely) technologies a bad a name. yes there are some muppet installers out there, but that IMO comes down to the cheapest product and installer not always being best.

muffler

Just to point out that the "Captain Bligh" account has been closed so he wont be responding.

soundskin

Captain Bligh wrote: »

Welcome to the great cod.

your bills seems high alright but you just joined the hundreds of others getting caught with this stuff every month.

the cost of all the installation, maintenance, and running simply cant pay itself back...... when you factor in the cost of the loan you used to buy it, usually mortgage over 30 yerar, interest and depreciation.

cost of power is only going one way. up up up. so is oil but at least you can monitor what you use. no money no oil no heat......V's....... no money, wasting heat, massive bill.....trouble. (im not for a second saying you cant afford it just some people cant)

now people are stuck with these yokes.

if you own the house, disconnect the system, install a boiler and watch your bill come down down down. in this way you are joininig the silent "opps got caught.....say nothing" gang.

i, off the top of my head, know of 6 families, "oh building a house...we'll heat it for 2p per day...so said the sales rep" disconnected the heat pumps.

good luck

For every case that you've mentioned i could list hundreds of heat pump with excellent results. I know because i see 10+ of them a week. So i'd like to give balance to your statement.

I don't install heat pumps and i don't so sales.

The last heat pump i was at yesterday was in a 260 sq meter house, the home owner had a dual tariff meter on it since it was installed. In two years it has used 5,312 kWhrs, split quite evenly between day & night rate. 682 euro for over 2 years. This is i admit exceptionally low as the house is airtight and is A rated with a very good quality heat pump, well installed and well commissioned.

In general a home heating system will consume as much energy as it needs to overcome the heat loss from the building to therefore keep you warm. A heat pump when sized & installed correctly, commissioned correctly and maintained regularly will always be cheaper that any fossil fuel alternative.

Gurgle

soundskin wrote: »

sized & installed correctly, commissioned correctly

imo, this is where it all falls down.

Espoo

Soundskin
I agree with ya here. I've a similar size house to the one your on about. Newbuild. Delighted with the bills. I've plans to put in hrv. Does that house use it? At the moment I'm using 12000kwh per year for total electrical needs. About €1700. On a double tarriff. But I've still got to put in the insulation in the attic as I've just finished the hrv ducting. I'd love to know how many kwh my pump uses. might put a meter on it. But to anyone starting a new build I'd recommend them to install a heat pump. Make sure to insulate the hell out of the house though.

Espoo

soundskin

Espoo,

That house in question did have a HRV system in place, it was an extremely well sealed house, can't remember the air tightness result off the top of my head.

I'd agree that any money spent on insulation isn't wasted. If you were to put in a meter then i'd suggest a hard wired one, more accurate than the clamp ones with the mobile monitor.