Ireland's 'rape culture'

token101

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-accept-it-rape-culture-exists/

I just came across this in the journal. Now, whilst I feel the journal is the Daily Mail with a slightly nicer design, I was still kind of surprised to see this. Couple of choice comments:

"There’s no denying that Ireland has a rape culture. Am I being deliberately provocative by stating that? God, no."

"What would the abandonment of rape culture mean, anyway? It’d hardly be a great loss. If women were no longer afraid to walk alone at night, in case their mere feminine presence invited violent assault."

"Are we to believe that all men are so in thrall to their own lust that they can’t help overpowering attractive females?"

I thought it was the biggest load of incoherent bollocks I've ever read and fairly offensive to men to be honest. I think she's essentially trying to paint every man as a groping, squatting chimp who needs to be educated by luminary feminists like her good self. Any thoughts?

Junior Jacon Jeese Jurger

Makes us all sound like those two from Deliverence.

Squeel boy!

Dravokivich

token101 wrote: »

Any thoughts?

This line you quoted stood out to me:

"Are we to believe that all men are so in thrall to their own lust that they can’t help overpowering attractive females?"

I can't help but wonder if she's upset that no men couldn't help themselves from overpowering her.

Dyr

The Journal reads like Ivana Baciks blog these days. Gas stuff, but there ya go. Sure its another boards project anyway.

I know some wimmens on facebook who joke about being "fraped", anyone have a recommendation for a good re-education centre that I can have them sent to?

token101

Feeona wrote: »

Nothing wrong with being a feminist, but her article is a pile of poorly written sh*te!

But women have the exact same rights as men and have done for decades. And if women can be feminists, then it has to be alright for men to promote men and their rights? But that's called chauvinism? Double standard?

Feeona

token101 wrote: »

But women have the exact same rights as men and have done for decades. And if women can be feminists, then it has to be alright for men to promote men and their rights? But that's called chauvinism? Double standard?

.

jimthemental

Lately I pay no attention to the Journal, how exactly do we have a rape culture. Rapists are despised in the same terms as pedos in this country.

token101

Feeona wrote: »

Are you saying I have double standards or it's a double standard in general?

I'm saying anyone who believes in her idea of feminism has a double standard. If you want to include yourself in that bracket, you can. If you turned around and said we needed more men in an industry, you're an ignorant pig. If you said similar about women, you're enlightened. That's not equality.

biko

Imo rape culture is when rape is an accepted consequence of dressing provocatively and yes this does have some truth in Ireland.

That report needs more stats and less opinion.

Feeona

token101 wrote: »

I'm saying anyone who believes in her idea of feminism has a double standard. If you want to include yourself in that bracket, you can. If you turned around and said we needed more men in an industry, you're an ignorant pig. If you said similar about women, you're enlightened. That's not equality.

.

Eve_Dublin

token101 wrote: »

I'm saying anyone who believes in her idea of feminism has a double standard. If you want to include yourself in that bracket, you can. If you turned around and said we needed more men in an industry, you're an ignorant pig. If you said similar about women, you're enlightened. That's not equality.

You're missing the point completely. Anyway, that's not the debate here.

4zn76tysfajdxp

jimthemental wrote: »

Lately I pay no attention to the Journal, how exactly do we have a rape culture. Rapists are despised in the same terms as pedos in this country.

In fairness, that's not exactly true. Have you seen the thread on how a rape victim was treated in court recently? Not very sympathetic. I can't imagine a paedophile getting this kind of reception after a conviction either:

People queued to shake this sex attacker’s handBy Donal Hickey Tralee
Thursday, December 17, 2009
IT was a scene that could have come from a John B Keane play – a bizarre gesture of support by some plain people of Kerry for a convicted sex offender.
Danny Foley, of Meen, Listowel, sat in the dock at the Circuit Criminal Court, in Tralee, yesterday, awaiting sentence for sexually assaulting a woman, having been found guilty by a jury almost two weeks ago.

A group of 50 people, mainly men and said to be neighbours and friends, trooped into the courtroom and marched up to the accused, in single file. Each man shook his hand – some hugged him warmly, with tears in their eyes. It was witnessed by the 24-year-old victim who cut a lonely figure in the front seat of the public gallery. Dressed in black, she sat with a female garda, a counsellor from the Kerry Rape Crisis Centre and a friend.

All the well-wishers then seated themselves in the public gallery. Judge Donagh McDonagh, who had not seen what happened, emerged from his chambers a few minutes later.

Foley, a 35-year-old bouncer who had been in custody since being convicted, then stood up.

Before handing down a seven-year prison sentence, with the last two years suspended, the judge told him he had lied about several things and there was something "particularly odious" about the allegation he and the victim had engaged in oral sex.

In the witness box, the victim calmly read from her victim impact statement in which she spoke of being judged in north Kerry for pursuing her case, but she was not sorry for telling the truth.

Parish priest, Fr Seán Sheehy, a character witness for Foley, said he had always struck him as having the highest respect for women, suggesting there wasn’t an abusive bone in Foley’s body.

The moment sentence was handed down, the accused’s mother began to scream loudly. The judge ordered she be removed from the courtroom.

Vera O’Leary, director of Kerry Rape Crisis Centre, called for a system to protect victims of sex offences from intimidation in a courtroom.

token101

biko wrote: »

Imo rape culture is when rape is an accepted consequence of dressing provocatively and yes this does have some truth in Ireland.

That report needs more stats and less opinion.

No it doesn't.

That's not a report. It's a column. It's her opinion. There's nothing to back it up.

token101

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

You're missing the point completely. Anyway, that's not the debate here.

I'd agree it's not really the point, but she makes reference to feminism several times in the article and I was responding to another comment.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Feeona wrote: »

But is it wise to judge all men as being dismissive of rape just because one judge can't get his act together? (I know that's not what you're saying, just putting it out there!)

No. I mean, I'm dismissive of rape. But that's just me.

Feeona

Lamar Limited Summerhouse wrote: »

No. I mean, I'm dismissive of rape. But that's just me.

.

She needs to get a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word "culture".

Feeona

token101 wrote: »

I'd agree it's not really the point, but she makes reference to feminism several times in the article and I was responding to another comment.

.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

of course he won't, everything is used as a stick to beat all men with

4zn76tysfajdxp

Feeona wrote: »

Ah I dunno, a flippant remark doesn't really help the situation. I still maintain that just because one man is dismissive of rape, it doesn't mean there's a culture of it and that all evil men are out to get the poor little women. Of course it doesn't help that he's a public figure, but we live in a culture where the good work people do goes unannounced because it's not interesting.

Ah yeah. But it wasn't just one man in the story in Kerry, it was whole crowd of men and women. My main point was just that rapists aren't exactly treated like paedos in society. There's still a lot of ignorance out there, s'pose.

smash

Feeona wrote: »

But you need to start a movement to eliminate the double standard you speak of.

That would probably be considered sexist.

Feeona

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

of course he won't,

.

Feeona

smash wrote: »

That would probably be considered sexist.

.

Feeona

Lamar Limited Summerhouse wrote: »

Ah yeah. But it wasn't just one man in the story in Kerry, it was whole crowd of men and women. My main point was just that rapists aren't exactly treated like paedos in society. There's still a lot of ignorance out there, s'pose.

.

Nijmegen

I think the article suffers from being poorly written. There's a germ of an idea in there, if you look really closely, but the author has shrouded it in a rambling, sometimes incoherent, often disputable diatribe.

To the essence of the idea that we treat rape too flippantly in Ireland there is, perhaps, an argument to be made.

But this article does more damage than good while flailing around trying to make that argument.

Eve_Dublin

token101 wrote: »

I'd agree it's not really the point, but she makes reference to feminism several times in the article and I was responding to another comment.

I really don't want to get into it for fear of being labelled a "man hater" again (not by you) but just an F.Y.I:

Chauvinism: 1. aggressive or fanatical patriotism; jingoism
2. enthusiastic devotion to a cause
3. smug irrational belief in the superiority of one's own race, party, sex, etc.
4.activity indicative of belief in the superiority of men over women

Feminism: 1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.
3. a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women
4. the movement aimed at equal rights for women

If a woman identifies herself as a feminist, it doesn't mean she hates men. Extreme cases, yes, but most of us just want to be treated equally in cases where were not. That's all.


They're not opposites. Just wanted to clear that up.

token101

Feeona wrote: »

I think feminisim is a cause for good because of the freedom and rights it afforded women.

You don't like men being called chauvinists for speaking their mind. Grand. But you need to start a movement to eliminate the double standard you speak of. And don't be surprised if that said movement is used as a stick to beat all men with.

Exactly. Past tense. Women have the same rights now, so need for it anymore. In fact , in a lot of cases women have more rights than men. Children being one that comes to mind.

I don't want to start any movement. I'm just pointing out the double standard that's there.

smash

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

If a woman identifies herself as a feminist, it doesn't mean she hates men. Extreme cases, yes, but most of us just want to be treated equally in cases where were not.

It's been a long long time since I've seen anything where women are treated as lesser individuals in the real world.

token101

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I really don't want to get into it for fear of being labelled a "man hater" again (not by you) but just an F.Y.I:

Chauvinism: 1. aggressive or fanatical patriotism; jingoism
2. enthusiastic devotion to a cause
3. smug irrational belief in the superiority of one's own race, party, sex, etc.
4.activity indicative of belief in the superiority of men over women

Feminism: 1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.
3. a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women
4. the movement aimed at equal rights for women

If a woman identifies herself as a feminist, it doesn't mean she hates men. Extreme cases, yes, but most of us just want to be treated equally in cases where were not. That's all.


They're not opposites. Just wanted to clear that up.

You could take the definition of chauvinism and apply that to a hell of a lot of feminists. Feminism has achieved its aims; women are equal in every possible way. So I would say that every women still harping on about it would tick all the boxes in your definition of chauvinism.

token101

Nijmegen wrote: »

I think the article suffers from being poorly written. There's a germ of an idea in there, if you look really closely, but the author has shrouded it in a rambling, sometimes incoherent, often disputable diatribe.

To the essence of the idea that we treat rape too flippantly in Ireland there is, perhaps, an argument to be made.

But this article does more damage than good while flailing around trying to make that argument.

I'd agree there alright.

Duggy747

I can see where the author is coming from, the argument that rape is quite passively seen upon can be reasonably made nowadays.

However, the article is poorly written tripe which deviates away from the point she, I presume, set out to make before descending into mush.

Gummy Panda

I only engage in consentual sleep rape

Feeona

token101 wrote: »

Exactly. Past tense. Women have the same rights now, so need for it anymore. In fact , in a lot of cases women have more rights than men. Children being one that comes to mind.

I don't want to start any movement. I'm just pointing out the double standard that's there.

Despite stating that I didn't agree with the article quoted in the OP (the point of the thread in the beginning), the fact that I said that there's nothing wrong with feminism is being used as a stick to beat my opinion with.

If you want support for your point, you need to take opinions on board from all quarters, even from your sworn enemy 'the feminist'.

It's an awful state of chassis.

Good luck with your thread.

kylith

smash wrote: »

It's been a long long time since I've seen anything where women are treated as lesser individuals in the real world.

Unfortunately it does happen. In my old job any time I made a complaint I'd be asked if I was 'on the rag'. Some men do still have an outdated view of women.

suicide_circus

The case in that article which Frada linked is shocking, wtf was going on there, that was medieval stuff. However saying there is a 'rape culture' is very misleading and just plain bad use of English.
There is a rape culture in modern African conflicts certainly.

smash

smash wrote: »

It's been a long long time since I've seen anything where women are treated as lesser individuals in the real world.

like this?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77045990&postcount=178

Gummy Panda

kylith wrote: »

smash wrote: »

It's been a long long time since I've seen anything where women are treated as lesser individuals in the real world.

Unfortunately it does happen. In my old job any time I made a complaint I'd be asked if I was 'on the rag'. Some men do still have an outdated view of women.

That is said in jobs but it's usually done by the tard no one likes.

token101

bluewolf wrote: »

like this?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77045990&postcount=178

But there's a complaints system there for that? She didn't report it and left it go. Her blowing up like that, that's her own fault, not the abuse, but for letting it get to that point. The minute she started getting **** she should have complained. That's harrassment and shouldn't have to take it but she has to take a proactive stand and sort it.

But it happens on both sides. There's a lad at work who's constantly getting groped by the older women in the office. He just shrugs it off, but they're groping him half the time. You can see he's unbelievably uncomfortable. Now, think of it like this: If that girl above and the lad from my work place both went to HR and complained, whose story is likely to get laughed at first?

token101

Gummy Panda wrote: »

That is said in jobs but it's usually done by the tard no one likes.

And it's said to men aswell. It's meant as a joke, at least where I work anyway.

_feedback_

bluewolf wrote: »

like this?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77045990&postcount=178

That guy sounds like a right idiot. It is a rare occurence now though isn't it.

To be fair, there are fools like the one in that post who will pick up on many things, like being a girl, being a guy, being a foreign national, being black, being white, dressing differently, dressing provocatively, being ginger, having a disability etc. etc.

There is a cúnt there to take the piss out of you on every corner you turn, but it doesn't mean that it is the norm that women are treated as lesser individuals.

token101

token101 wrote: »

But there's a complaints system there for that?

He didn't say there wasn't one, he said he's not seen it happen in real life
there's an example, regardless of the outcome

But it happens on both sides. There's a lad at work who's constantly getting groped by the older women in the office. He just shrugs it off, but they're groping him half the time. You can see he's unbelievably uncomfortable. Now, think of it like this: If that girl above and the lad from my work place both went to HR and complained, whose story is likely to get laughed at first?

he should report it so

smash

kylith wrote: »

Unfortunately it does happen. In my old job any time I made a complaint I'd be asked if I was 'on the rag'. Some men do still have an outdated view of women.

bluewolf wrote: »

like this?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77045990&postcount=178

That's harassment. A simple complaint to HR would sort that pretty quickly.

starbelgrade

It's a piss poor article. There may well be a widespread problem with rape in Ireland - if there is, I'm not aware of it, but that would make it reason enough for highlighting the topic & opening a debate on it.

However, why she chose to throw into the mix an unwarranted amount of references to both male and female stereotypes is beyond me. It only serves to confuse the issue & adds nothing to the debate.

dsmythy

Tell her to compare Ireland's rape culture with South Africa's. (Hint we don't have one).

The Journal is an Irish left wing Daily Mail. It's funny.

FTGFOP

Dravokivich wrote: »

I can't help but wonder if she's upset that no men couldn't help themselves from overpowering her.

You're wondering if she's upset that she hasn't been raped? You're a fucking moron.

pickarooney

Po-faced, condescending intransigence - surely the best way to get any point across.

starbelgrade

pickarooney wrote: »

Po-faced, condescending intransigence - surely the best way to get any point across.

Did she eat da po po?

theg81der

Trying to look at statistic to see what I think about this. While I think rape is far more common than most people think I think this article is rubbish. Heres somethings I did find attached and linked :

http://www.womensaid.ie/policy/natintstats.html

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=8520


Statistics I think are not a great measure of this problem. The people I know that have been the victim of rape or sexual assault have never reported it formally or in the majority of cases even sought counselling. I have personally been the victim of attempted rape several times, even by a friends of a friend once after my friend saying "what was I making a big deal about" our friendship quickly ended.

Given that the majority of sexual assault or rape seems to be domestic, perpetrated by people known to the victim, it can only be assumed that they are not thought to be a treat by others or to their victims previously. And if the formal allegation is never made people still remain to think they are upstanding members of the community in some instance.

I think normal people expect the face of rape or sexual assault to be a monster but most of the time it is the bloke around the corner or your team mate/drinking buddy.

I do not think anyone is nieve enough thou to think that every man is a threat and this would be a very sad way to live your life. Sadly for victims they probably do think this way as that man they trusted - their friend, partner, uncle - has vioated them in this way that has forever changed them, even if no one else ever knows.

MungBean

Piss poor article on online rag shocker :eek:

TheZohanS

I think the journal.ie has jumped the shark. It's a pity, it was doing well there for a while.

Mr. Loverman

It is beyond ridiculous to say Ireland has a rape culture. I almost think she is trolling.

But there is still some inequality in Ireland (both sexes).

The obvious ones being single fathers having less rights to see their kids than single mothers, and women being paid less then men.