Ireland's 'rape culture'

Dudess

I can see merit in points from both sides here.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

of course he won't, everything is used as a stick to beat all men with

Yes, "everything" is - and "all" men. Life's so hard for the poor lickle white, western, middle-class male...

FTGFOP wrote: »

You're wondering if she's upset that she hasn't been raped? You're a fucking moron.

Big time. Unreal comment - and thanked too, including by a woman. :-/

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Usually people do that when they want their argument removed. I havent really read the thread but often done by someone who loses :P

Or if they're being cluster-f'ucked and can't be bothered anymore...

Bambi wrote: »

I think people mainly go there now for the punch up in the comments section...

Many comments to TheJournal.ie articles are bordering on YouTube-style dumbness...

spacecookie555 wrote: »

Women have equal rights, my "imaginary" bollix!

Here in the West we do.

But yet a man cant help himself looking down a womans top or slapping her ass

I don't think anyone agrees a man can't help himself slapping a woman's ass, but looking at her boobs... because he thinks they look good. There's nothing sinister about it in fairness.

My boyfriend loves when I dress sexy, he says he loves to show me off

Lol.

and if I get any really inappropriate attention he sorts it out verbally like a real man should, because why I am expected to defend myself against a man whos twice my height and width and a hundred times stronger than me just because I wore a short skirt??

There is inappropriate attention but then there is just admiring glancing, which is a flattering thing - and pretty much invited when a woman dresses sexily.

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Btw the prosecution and court issues affect men too.

Which contexts are you talking about?

spacecookie555 wrote: »

im a 34G, 100% natural of course, it runs in my family, and a size 12 to boot. Theyre HUGE, now im not going to lie, even women look down my top, but some men do look as if theyre about to try and climb inside my top which makes me very uncomfortable. And why should I feel uncomfortable when theyre the ones with the breastfeeding issues you know??

It's not breastfeeding issues - it's liking the sight of big boobs. Do you wear lowcut tops? If so, I'd suggest you change to high-neck, loose ones and wear a minimiser bra. I'm not being like a Mother Superior and saying "You're flaunting yourself" - if a woman with big boobs wants to wear low-cut tops, more power to her, but she cannot complain if people have a good look at them (not staring, but a decent auld glance) merely because they are considered an attractive sight. Your boyfriend probably looks at other women's boobs too.

MagicSean wrote: »

Do you live in some convent? Women are as bad as men when it comes to sexually explicit jokes.

I don't think so. I may be :pac: but lots of women would get more offended than men - generally speaking.
Some lads do speak about women horribly too - going on (non jokingly) about "gash" and "snatch". Most of the time it's probably just to look cool in front of their mates, but you do not hear the same degree of women going on about the kind of "cock" they'll get.

Sounds like your boyfriend just wants to get laid. And his mates are helping him.

A guy disagreeing with knuckle-dragging attitudes towards women isn't necessarily just trying to get into knickers, but in light of the poster saying he likes to show her off dressed sexily, I think you could be on to something there...

Do you even go out on a Saturday night? Women are like sexual predators on the hunt for cock. Why else would they go to Coppers? Have you been out on a Halloween night? Women can't dress as anything unless it has the word sexy or slutty in front of it.

Perhaps tone down the "women" as if all women do it talk (for example, Coppers?! :eek:) I think too that women who carry on with all that Rihanna/Katy Perry slapper stuff are doing it more for attention and flattery and to be cock-teases, than actually on the hunt for cock.

spacecookie555 wrote: »

women wear heels cause they slim the leg and make the woman appear taller and leaner, the things we do for beauty :rolleyes:

I wouldn't wear high, sore shoes if you paid me. Medium height heels are grand for making the legs look darn good.

Millicent, I agree with you nearly all the time, but I'm not sure I agree that what you speak of is tantamount to a rape culture/a culture that is leaning in the direction of condoning rape. Of course the things you talk about are disgusting, but they just don't strike me as hugely prevalent in Ireland, and rather the preserve of a minority of imbeciles.
I also agree wearing next to nothing and walking down a side alley alone IS putting yourself at risk, even if the rapist is totally the one at fault. However, the issue here is that that rarely happens - it's a myth put out there. Rape mostly happens to people who were in perfectly innocuous situations.
WRT to getting drunk and waking up and screaming rape because it's a lad you agreed to have sex with while drunk - really, how often does that happen? And couldn't it also be possible that she got so out of it that he shagged her when she was incapacitated and too drunk to actually make a rational decision? Nobody should have sex with someone, particularly a stranger, when the latter is sh1t-faced drunk - they're not in their right mind to give consent.

laoch na mona wrote: »

crazy women on a rant:rolleyes:
nothing to see here move along

If you're only talking about the article, well it was just written by one woman...
Would you say "Crazy man on a rant"?

Millicent

Dudess wrote: »

Millicent, I agree with you nearly all the time, but I'm not sure I agree that what you speak of is tantamount to a rape culture/a culture that is leaning in the direction of condoning rape. Of course the things you talk about are disgusting, but they just don't strike me as hugely prevalent in Ireland, and rather the preserve of a minority of imbeciles.
I also agree wearing next to nothing and walking down a side alley alone IS putting yourself at risk, even if the rapist is totally the one at fault. However, the issue here is that that rarely happens - it's a myth put out there. Rape mostly happens to people who were in perfectly innocuous situations.

That's okay. I still like ye. To be honest, this may be one of those topics we never agree on.

Perhaps I'm more sensitive to it given my history, but I have had direct experience of rape culture and seen it waged against other victims.

I have heard someone say "Well, it's hardly surprising given the way she dresses" said by the aunt of someone who had been sexually assaulted by a family member. I also saw that assault go unreported so as not to cause waves and other family continue to drink with the assaulter even though it was widely acknowledged that he had, in fact, sexually assaulted the teenage girl. That's just one example from personal experience--I have more.

Rape culture is evident, to me, in other ways too. Take, for example, an argument with a usually well-reasoned poster who believed a man couldn't be raped by a woman despite evidence to the contrary.

Or take the "nice" comments that crop up when an underage boy is groomed and sexually assaulted by a female paedophile.

Or that ad campaign recently by that tacky nightclub which showed a girl with her knickers round her ankles with the slogan "If you're not up for it, don't cum." Even if you don't agree that the girl in the picture is in a vulnerable position, when was the last time you saw such an ad directed at the opposite gender?

Take, for another example, Ireland's lack of shield laws in rape cases outside anonymity so that a victim has to sit in the same room as his/her attacker while being grilled on their sexual history, a question that is never levelled at the accused.

Or a judge who threw out a rape case recently because the woman, who worked in rape crisis services, "because she should have known better had apparently waited too long to report it." Or ministers writing letters on behalf of rape accused saying they come from good families. Or this lovely chap whose sentence was waived because his actions were "out of character". Or that case in Listowel where members of the public lined up to shake the hand of a man convicted of sexual assault.

Rape culture is also that conditioning many girls have from a young age to grow up with a fear of being raped. Very few people expect to be or regularly fear that they will be the victim of other serious crimes but many women do with rape. *Don't get in unfamiliar surroundings with a man you don't know well* *Don't give him mixed signals* *Don't get drunk around strange men* *Don't sleep with too many men or people will think you're easy* etc.

The fact that 1 in 8 of the population is estimated to be the victim of a serious sexual crime (the 1 in 4 figure refers to the whole spectrum of sexual offences including minor ones), I would say that we have a rape culture, especially given that we fail those same victims through the legal system regularly.

I could probably keep going on this but it's already a TL;DR so I won't.

PK2008

Its feminists like these that make me loathe and revile all women....

...joke

Dudess

Millicent wrote: »

That's okay. I still like ye. To be honest, this may be one of those topics we never agree on.

Perhaps I'm more sensitive to it given my history, but I have had direct experience of rape culture and seen it waged against other victims.

I have heard someone say "Well, it's hardly surprising given the way she dresses" said by the aunt of someone who had been sexually assaulted by a family member. I also saw that assault go unreported so as not to cause waves and other family continue to drink with the assaulter even though it was widely acknowledged that he had, in fact, sexually assaulted the teenage girl. That's just one example from personal experience--I have more.

Rape culture is evident, to me, in other ways too. Take, for example, an argument with a usually well-reasoned poster who believed a man couldn't be raped by a woman despite evidence to the contrary.

Or take the "nice" comments that crop up when an underage boy is groomed and sexually assaulted by a female paedophile.

Or that ad campaign recently by that tacky nightclub which showed a girl with her knickers round her ankles with the slogan "If you're not up for it, don't cum." Even if you don't agree that the girl in the picture is in a vulnerable position, when was the last time you saw such an ad directed at the opposite gender?

Take, for another example, Ireland's lack of shield laws in rape cases outside anonymity so that a victim has to sit in the same room as his/her attacker while being grilled on their sexual history, a question that is never levelled at the accused.

Or a judge who threw out a rape case recently because the woman, who worked in rape crisis services, "because she should have known better had apparently waited too long to report it." Or ministers writing letters on behalf of rape accused saying they come from good families. Or this lovely chap whose sentence was waived because his actions were "out of character". Or that case in Listowel where members of the public lined up to shake the hand of a man convicted of sexual assault.

Rape culture is also that conditioning many girls have from a young age to grow up with a fear of being raped. Very few people expect to be or regularly fear that they will be the victim of other serious crimes but many women do with rape. *Don't get in unfamiliar surroundings with a man you don't know well* *Don't give him mixed signals* *Don't get drunk around strange men* *Don't sleep with too many men or people will think you're easy* etc.

The fact that 1 in 8 of the population is estimated to be the victim of a serious sexual crime (the 1 in 4 figure refers to the whole spectrum of sexual offences including minor ones), I would say that we have a rape culture, especially given that we fail those same victims through the legal system

And all that stuff is just... depressing and enraging to put it mildly. But I personally think it's to do with idiocy and ignorance and lack of education/compassion moreso than a rape culture. However, you have experienced this directly too and I respect your perspective also.

Millicent

Dudess wrote: »

And all that stuff is just... depressing and enraging to put it mildly. But I personally think it's to do with idiocy and ignorance and lack of education/compassion moreso than a rape culture. However, you have experienced this directly too and I respect your perspective also.

But when that idiocy is engrained in a large portion of the populace, that's a culture.

Dudess

True. But in my experience, it is a minority of idiots. However, that's just my experience. I guess personal experiences don't paint the full picture.

Millicent

Dudess wrote: »

True. But in my experience, it is a minority of idiots. However, that's just my experience. I guess personal experiences don't paint the full picture.

I get you and I'm thankful your experience is not the same as mine--gives me hope. The statistics for sexual crime in this country and the prosecution/conviction rates have me convinced of a rape culture though even outside my own personal perspective.

Dudess

I suppose it's such a loaded, harsh term - I can understand reasonable men (the majority of men) getting defensive about it. I think there could be better terms for such a culture.

Millicent

Dudess wrote: »

I suppose it's such a loaded, harsh term - I can understand reasonable men (the majority of men) getting defensive about it. I think there could be better terms for such a culture.

I have said earlier that I think the term is problematic so I agree with you there but the classification is a valid one. Whatever it's termed, the issue is a real one.

the_syco

Have only read the first few posts

Ah, the usual "if you're a man, you're most likely a rapist" form of thought.

I doubt most rapists care at all about what their image is. It's only those that don't rape will care that they're being tarnished with the rapist image.

Dudess

The usual? Pretty UNusual thinking I'd have thought.

the_syco

Dudess wrote: »

The usual? Pretty UNusual thinking I'd have thought.

Sorry, I'll rephrase it.

Ah, the usual "if you're a man, you're most likely a rapist" form of thought from a certain minority of extreme feminists.

RiseToTheTop

TBH after the church lost it's hold and MTV, and other music channels have turned into Softcore porn TV who would have thought the occurence of rape would have went up :rolleyes:

Turn on TV, anytime during the daytime, and you'll see lady gaga with "shorts" just covering her pussy, a piece of string keeping her top from falling off and her pushed up breats pushing out of her "top." Basically TV is sometimes "sex, sex, sex." (daytime or nighttime, BTW i'm not mentioning movies.)

"Woah, the new Beyonce video is on, can't wait to see the video. " *close up of arse* then *shaking arse* then *dance shaking arse* then her face is shown for a bit then *close up of arse with water pipe bursting on her* ad infinitum.

It would have been niced to switch a bit more carefully from the old Ireland to this new Ireland, not from one extreme to another.

laoch na mona

Dudess wrote: »

Would you say "Crazy man on a rant"?

yes if it was a man on a rant

Dudess

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

TBH after the church lost it's hold and MTV, and other music channels have turned into Softcore porn TV who would have thought the occurence of rape would have went up :rolleyes:

Turn on TV, anytime during the daytime, and you'll see lady gaga with "shorts" just covering her pussy, a piece of string keeping her top from falling off and her pushed up breats pushing out of her "top." Basically TV is sometimes "sex, sex, sex." (daytime or nighttime, BTW i'm not mentioning movies.)

"Woah, the new Beyonce video is on, can't wait to see the video. " *close up of arse* then *shaking arse* then *dance shaking arse* then her face is shown for a bit then *close up of arse with water pipe bursting on her* ad infinitum.

It would have been niced to switch a bit more carefully from the old Ireland to this new Ireland, not from one extreme to another.

Lol. While I agree MTV is like soft porn, are you saying this is a factor in rape stats going up?
Perhaps it's because, unlike when the church had a hold, people are more likely to report it? And at least rapes within the catholic church and the institutions it runs have reduced in number.

MagicSean

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

TBH after the church lost it's hold and MTV, and other music channels have turned into Softcore porn TV who would have thought the occurence of rape would have went up :rolleyes:

Turn on TV, anytime during the daytime, and you'll see lady gaga with "shorts" just covering her pussy, a piece of string keeping her top from falling off and her pushed up breats pushing out of her "top." Basically TV is sometimes "sex, sex, sex." (daytime or nighttime, BTW i'm not mentioning movies.)

"Woah, the new Beyonce video is on, can't wait to see the video. " *close up of arse* then *shaking arse* then *dance shaking arse* then her face is shown for a bit then *close up of arse with water pipe bursting on her* ad infinitum.

It would have been niced to switch a bit more carefully from the old Ireland to this new Ireland, not from one extreme to another.

The Catholic Church. Preventers of rape until MTV.

RiseToTheTop

Dudess wrote: »

Lol. While I agree MTV is like soft porn, are you saying this is a factor in rape stats going up?
Perhaps it's because, unlike when the church had a hold, people are more likely to report it? And at least rapes within the catholic church and the institutions it runs have reduced in number.

Yes. During the daytime watching this on your TV. Do you think showing this stuff would lower the rape rate?

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/everyday_economics/2006/10/how_the_web_prevents_rape.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101130111326.htm

http://bigthink.com/ideas/37804

now stop posting sh!te about porn and rape

Dudess

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

Lol. While I agree MTV is like soft porn, are you saying this is a factor in rape stats going up?
Perhaps it's because, unlike when the church had a hold, people are more likely to report it? And at least rapes within the catholic church and the institutions it runs have reduced in number.

Yes. During the daytime watching this on your TV. Do you think showing this stuff would lower the rape rate?

Yes, watching this during the day on your TV will increase rape rates. Very... scientific. And watching it on the net at night won't or something.

No, I wouldn't say it would lower instances of rape (but at the same time, I'm no expert - and neither are you). Are you actually claiming that because it may not lower rape rates, that automatically means it will increase them?

Mr. Loverman

bluewolf wrote: »

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/everyday_economics/2006/10/how_the_web_prevents_rape.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101130111326.htm

http://bigthink.com/ideas/37804

now stop posting sh!te about porn and rape

Thanks for this.

Years ago, as part of a job, I had to research how porn affects society, and I came across a couple of academic studies about how regions with widespread broadband coverage had lower levels of sex crimes, and the general conclusion was access to porn.

Personally, I think sex crimes are complex and probably are some sort of emotional problem (or at least, not something a prison sentence will "fix"), but I think anything which can reduce the number of victims is a good thing, whether this is education about how sex crimes ruin lives, pre-emptive counselling, or straight up easy access to porn.

We'll obviously never eradicate crime but consistent crime reduction is a realistic goal.

Sojojin

44leto wrote: »

They didn't exactly consent either, so yes that is a rape. I am a guy and I know well the guy knows what is consensual and what is not, there is no confusion.

You posted the most ludicrous comment I have ever seen, which appears totally devoid of deep thought, common sense, or experience. I also doubt that you are a man or an adult. Based on your definition of rape, sex is rape.

Husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends, lovers, etc... They often have sex without explicit consent and it's not rape. Women constantly have consensual sex, without having to give explicit verbal or written permission.

Rape is the use of force, using a weapon, or blackmail to have sex against the will of a person or if the other party requested the person to stop.

The context of the situation needs to be understood. Where the person claiming rape has clearly requested the other party to stop or was unconscious. The action of the alleged rapist needs to be understood, where it is clear they have malicious intent and disregard for the request to stop.

Sojojin

44leto wrote: »

HUH
If she did the deed she said yes and did consent, off course that is not rape there just simply isn't a case.

But if she said no, and the guy forces it, that is rape. You see the difference.

And it is not all about conviction its also about morals and conscience, the guy knows.

Take you, I meet you down the pub, you have tight jeans on, nice ass, nice crotch we get chatting I say lets have a smoke back at mine, you agree, now I am a fairly big guy, I decide I want to have sex with you, you say no I am not gay, I force it anyway. Pretty clear isn't it.

The problem with your argument is that you are making up your own definition of rape, which is based on giving explicit consent via yes or no.

Easily, you can have a situation where one person said they heard "yes", while the other person claims to have said "no".

Therefore for sex to not be rape, you would need people to sign consent forms or make a video giving explicit permission to have sex. And even such very explicit permission can be debated, because of the use of blackmail or a weapon, which can't be seen.

This is why a person needs to first make a claim of rape. And tis claim needs to be based on them requesting the other party to stop, but they proceeded via use of force, a weapon, or blackmail. The context of the situation is important.

The rape claim needs to be examined and also the person making the claim, to determine if this situation is actually a lie, blackmail, or revenge. A person claiming rape, may have in fact not been raped or even had sex, and is unjustly accusing another.

44leto

Sojojin wrote: »

The problem with your argument is that you are making up your own definition of rape, which is based on giving explicit consent via yes or no.

Easily, you can have a situation where one person said they heard "yes", while the other person claims to have said "no".

Therefore for sex to not be rape, you would need people to sign consent forms or make a video giving explicit permission to have sex. And even such very explicit permission can be debated, because of the use of blackmail or a weapon, which can't be seen.

This is why a person needs to first make a claim of rape. And tis claim needs to be based on them requesting the other party to stop, but they proceeded via use of force, a weapon, or blackmail. The context of the situation is important.

The rape claim needs to be examined and also the person making the claim, to determine if this situation is actually a lie, blackmail, or revenge. A person claiming rape, may have in fact not been raped or even had sex, and is unjustly accusing another.

2posts I had this same argument with you I think in another guise and i am not getting back into it with you.

Owen_S

The Journal does have some good articles, but too often they let some complete feminazis write their articles, who often have little to no basis for their biased points, the one about women earning less than men is a good example of this.

Sojojin

spacecookie555 wrote: »

Which is exactly why I stated that its a minority, I know theres some fantastic gentlemen and they far outnumber the others.
And em MR.loverman, I take it you dont have breasts... Well I do, im a 34G, 100% natural of course, it runs in my family, and a size 12 to boot. Theyre HUGE, now im not going to lie, even women look down my top, but some men do look as if theyre about to try and climb inside my top which makes me very uncomfortable. And why should I feel uncomfortable when theyre the ones with the breastfeeding issues you know??

Women should be fair. I'm a man with a large one. If I wore very tight shorts outside so you could clearly see my package, I shouldn't be surprised if women stare.

If you are drawing attention to yourself by how you dress, don't be surprise that you get looked at.

Of course, there are polite limits to staring. People shouldn't be going out of their way to be rude, disrespectful, or impolite.

Sojojin

44leto wrote: »

2posts I had this same argument with you I think in another guise and i am not getting back into it with you.

I'm new to the board. A link to this site came up from a news article. I was reading comments and saw yours, which disturbed me enough to decide to make a comment about them.

44leto

Sojojin wrote: »

I'm new to the board. A link to this site came up from a news article. I was reading comments and saw yours, which disturbed me enough to decide to make a comment about them.

OK apologies, but I find views like yours disturbing, they belong somewhere back in the 70s.

Grayson

bluewolf wrote: »

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/everyday_economics/2006/10/how_the_web_prevents_rape.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101130111326.htm

http://bigthink.com/ideas/37804

now stop posting sh!te about porn and rape

Link 1...

Similarly, psychologists have found that male subjects, immediately after watching pornography, are more likely to express misogynistic attitudes. But as professor Kendall points out, we need to be clear on what those experiments are testing: They are testing the effects of watching pornography in a controlled laboratory setting under the eyes of a researcher. The experience of viewing porn on the Internet, in the privacy of one's own room, typically culminates in a slightly messier but far more satisfying experience—an experience that could plausibly tamp down some of the same aggressions that the pornus interruptus of the laboratory tends to stir up.

The study states that males who watch porn become more misogynistic. But the conclusion is that if a man does it in his own home outside of a lab, there will be different consequences. However, there's no evidence or study mentioned to back it up. The conclusion is plucked out of thin air.


Link 2. This is about paedophiles. You're stating that paedophiles and rapists are the same? They have the same motivations and the same reasons for being the way they are? A guys who date rapes is the same as a guy who buggers small boys?
A lot of rapes are caused by men who hate woman and have no respect for them. They are not the same as paedophiles.

Link 3.

I would say that jury is still out on this one so don’t go writing your local authority demanding increased access to cheap porn quite yet. This particular paper is still unpublished and there is plenty of work that can still be done on this issue.

Yes, I just quoted the link you posted to disprove the link you posted. Did you even read this stuff or did you just Google it and grab the first three links with titles you liked?

Most of the studies show that since porn became available online, rape has decreased. However, that's like saying that since IRC became widely available, rape has decreased. Or that rape has decreased as boybands became more popular.
It also fails to note that there was a large drop in crime overall in the 90's. Not just rape. This has been discussed in many books including freakonomics. In freakonomics, they determine that Roe Vs Wade caused the decrease in crime.

It's also ignoring the rise in feminism over the last 20 years. Feminism was around before. But it's really paid dividends recently. It was only 25 years ago that most women needed a husband/father to co sign a credit card application. Maybe more men now have a higher respect for women. And maybe that's why rape has dropped.


Personally, I'm not saying that there is a link or no link. There's a huge variety of porn out there. I have no doubt that men who watch violent porn are more likely to commit a sex crime. But maybe it's just because they are more likely to commit a sex crime that they are drawn to violent porn. But I'm not going to dismiss it either.

44leto

Grayson wrote: »

Personally, I'm not saying that there is a link or no link. There's a huge variety of porn out there. I have no doubt that men who watch violent porn are more likely to commit a sex crime. But maybe it's just because they are more likely to commit a sex crime that they are drawn to violent porn. But I'm not going to dismiss it either.

What I find disturbing about easy internet porn access is a persons first sexual encounter these days is usually porn. Porn tends to objectify a women and porn is not about respect or relationships. I don't know what message that sends to an early teen who is developing his sexuality

I really don't know or could conjecture what the long term effects of that will be, there will probably be none, but intuitively I don't think it is good.

pickarooney

Millicent wrote: »

Okay, to challenge that with logic, what is the equivalent of a rape victim being asked how many sexual partners they have had in their past in a mugging or assault setting?

Mugging is fairly cut and dried. There's not usually a debate over whether the accused was given permission to smack the victim about the head and take his/her wallet.

prinz

44leto wrote: »

I really don't know or could conjecture what the long term effects of that will be, there will probably be none, but intuitively I don't think it is good.

A lot of studies have shown links between adult offenders (not just of sex related crimes) and early exposure to pornography most notably a lack of empathy to others.

As for a 'rape culture' I think the writer probably has a point. Not in the 'people think rape is ok' way, but I think there is a signifcant proportion of people in this country for whom sex is all about themselves and I think people become desensitised to others in that way... there's a slide towards ONS.. then the more anonymous the better ONS.. and so on to the drink related experiences.. to she was asking for it.

44leto

prinz wrote: »

A lot of studies have shown links between adult offenders (not just of sex related crimes) and early exposure to pornography most notably a lack of empathy to others.

But its the old argument, do people who lack empathy like violent porn or does violent porn contribute or cause a lack of empathy. I don't know to be honest.

But I do know I would not allow a young teen to watch porn. But that decision is out of the adults hands now. If they have access to a computer, a phone, even a game consoles or their friends have, they have access to porn.

Sojojin

Porn and rape are not the same things. It's like saying that if a woman dresses sexy, she was begging to be raped. Are we saying or insinuating that men that watch porn are rapist? And by the way, women watch porn too.

Porn is arguably about freedom of sexual expression and human sexuality. And its about money too, but that is with the explicit consent of the people being videotaped.

To watch or not watch porn is a voluntary decision. If you don't like it, don't watch. People that watch porn, want to. And as the billions of dollars it generates can attest to, a lot of people like watching sex.

Rape on the other hand, is about force and disregarding the request to stop. It's not voluntary, but against someone's will.

Sojojin

Sojojin wrote: »

Porn and rape are not the same things. It's like saying that if a woman dresses sexy, she was begging to be raped. Are we saying or insinuating that men that watch porn are rapist?

I should hope not. Someone earlier was whingeing about people on mtv and porn leading to higher incidences on rape, which the studies I linked seem to show it doesn't
it shouldn't even be an argument anyway tbh, the two are separate

Mr. Loverman

44leto wrote: »

I would not allow a young teen to watch porn.

Assuming the porn is just normal sex, would you still disallow a young teen from watching it?

If so, why?

meganj

Millicent wrote: »

I think it is also important to note that "rape culture" is not and should not be a gendered term. Men who are the victims of rape and other sexual violence are also the victims of rape culture in the ways in which they are viewed, treated and dealt with. Even more so, in many cases and ways, than a lot of female victims are.

Absolutely agree with this. When we talk about a 'rape culture' in society it is easy to get caught up in this idea that it's men vs women. I understand that statistically women are more likely to be raped, but men are raped too.

I think for men the reaction of society, police and whoever else is that there is one of 'why didn't you fight back' I think there is a certain amount of expectation that a man should be able to fight their attacker off or something. Couple that with the common physical reaction that a majority of male victims experience they feel shame as if a physical reaction is tantamount to consent.

I think what bugs me the most about the reaction in this thread and elsewhere to rape is not just the idea that women should dress appropriately, not walk through dark allies and not be falling down drunk in public, is valid in the sense that women should be able to protect themselves. But the problem comes when a woman is raped either because they did these things or they didn't. When women are raped for example while walking home alone drunk there is a reaction that says 'Oh why did she do that?' Why shouldn't see do that? A woman or anyone should not have to think twice about whether what they're wearing is 'going to get them raped' that's nonsense.

But the thing in that statement that no one seems to be talking about is the awful opinion people who think that sort of thing think of men. I don't know any men that would have sex with a girl who couldn't consent, I also know that many of my male friends might go for a girl who's dressed a bit 'provocatively' in a nightclub, but they certainly wouldn't think 'Oh god I simply have to have her whether she consents or not!' I call BS on that. This is not a feminist issue, because in the same way that people scold victims for doing or not doing something, and as a result encourage women to not dress 'slutty' in order to protect themselves, your also saying that the entire male race possesses so little self-control that the simply act of a girl in a short skirt drives them into some sort of raping frenzy.

There has been a move in recent years, especially with the increase of dape rape, to move the focus from women and girls alone being responsible for their education and protection to teaching young men and boys what rape is. This is a very good example of that shift.

I think rape culture is prevalent in this society, I think it's prevalent in most societies. I think in some way, or maybe I'd like to believe it's this way, that victim blaming or putting the responsibility for not getting raped on the potential victim as opposed to the potential offender makes people feel safe. People want to believe that there is a reason people get raped so they themselves feel safer because they can say 'Oh I would never do that' or 'My daughter would never do that' it makes you feel safe. Who wouldn't want that? But the cost of it is to high for victims who feel nothing but blame coming from all sides in society.

44leto

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Assuming the porn is just normal sex, would you still disallow a young teen from watching it?

If so, why?

Yes I would, because it is never normal sex also it can be addictive. I know by me, I imagine if I had unfettered access to porn in my early teens, I don't think I would have got my homework done.

Again that is just my opinion, I really don't know if it is damaging or not, but intuitively I think it is.

prinz

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Assuming the porn is just normal sex, would you still disallow a young teen from watching it? If so, why?

Personally because sex to me is more than just a physical act. It involves emotions, feelings, selflessness, how we relate to other people etc, separating those from the act is going to have negative implications down the line especially for a young teen strugging to come to terms with their own physical and mental changes in puberty and overflowing with hormones.

44leto

prinz wrote: »

Personally because sex to me is more than just a physical act. It involves emotions, feelings, selflessness, how we relate to other people etc, separating those from the act is going to have negative implications down the line especially for a young teen strugging to come to terms with their own physical and mental changes in puberty and overflowing with hormones.

I absolutely agree, you not only objectify the partner but the act as well.

prinz

meganj wrote: »

When women are raped for example while walking home alone drunk there is a reaction that says 'Oh why did she do that?' Why shouldn't see do that? A woman or anyone should not have to think twice about whether what they're wearing is 'going to get them raped' that's nonsense..

In fairness that reaction accompanies any crime/event, rape, assault, mugging, car theft etc etc. and it's perfectly appropriate. It's how we learn to avoid similar situations. Nobody male or female should have to worry about being the victim of crime.. but that's a fantasy world. We live in the real world where we owe it to ourselves to protect ourselves as far as possible because crime happens... and in some situations it happens more often.

Grayson

bluewolf wrote: »

I should hope not. Someone earlier was whingeing about people on mtv and porn leading to higher incidences on rape, which the studies I linked seem to show it doesn't

Those links didn't prove anything of the sort.

Grayson

prinz wrote: »

In fairness that reaction accompanies any crime/event, rape, assault, mugging, car theft etc etc. and it's perfectly appropriate. It's how we learn to avoid similar situations. Nobody male or female should have to worry about being the victim of crime.. but that's a fantasy world. We live in the real world where we owe it to ourselves to protect ourselves as far as possible because crime happens... and in some situations it happens more often.

Yep. If I walked down a street called muggers lane wearing a suit made from money, I'd be an idiot. The same goes for rape victims. They don't deserve to be raped, but if they place themselves in stupid positions, they are partly to blame. In the real world there are bad people and anyone (regardless of gender) places themselves in a position where a bad person can take advantage of them, they're idiots.

The King of Moo

prinz wrote: »

In fairness that reaction accompanies any crime/event, rape, assault, mugging, car theft etc etc. and it's perfectly appropriate. It's how we learn to avoid similar situations. Nobody male or female should have to worry about being the victim of crime.. but that's a fantasy world. We live in the real world where we owe it to ourselves to protect ourselves as far as possible because crime happens... and in some situations it happens more often.

Grayson wrote: »

Yep. If I walked down a street called muggers lane wearing a suit made from money, I'd be an idiot. The same goes for rape victims. They don't deserve to be raped, but if they place themselves in stupid positions, they are partly to blame. In the real world there are bad people and anyone (regardless of gender) places themselves in a position where a bad person can take advantage of them, they're idiots.

But that's assuming most rapes occur outside at night, with rapists lurking in dark alleyways.
But about two thirds of rapes occur in a house, most of those occuring in the home of the victim.
The attacker is usually someone known to the victim. According to the latest U.S statistics, only about 25% of rapes were committed by strangers.

In such situations, you can hardly attach any blame to the victim for not doing more to avoid the assault, and their clothes have very little to do with it. Rape's often about domination and humiliation of the victim, not sexual attraction. Hence why it often occurs, across gender lines, in institutions with formal and informal hierarchical structures such as prison/the police/the military.

Calling some rape victims "idiots" seems incredibly ironic to me, by the way.

Grayson

The King of Moo wrote: »

But that's assuming most rapes occur outside at night, with rapists lurking in dark alleyways.
But about two thirds of rapes occur in a house, most of those occuring in the home of the victim.
The attacker is usually someone known to the victim. According to the latest U.S statistics, only about 25% of rapes were committed by strangers.

In such situations, you can hardly attach any blame to the victim for not doing more to avoid the assault, and their clothes have very little to do with it. Rape's often about domination and humiliation of the victim, not sexual attraction. Hence why it often occurs, across gender lines, in institutions with formal and informal hierarchical structures such as prison/the police/the military.

Calling some rape victims "idiots" seems incredibly ironic to me, by the way.

I never said all of them were. And I realise that most rapes like most robberies don't occur in stereotypical situations. But there are situations where you find your self thinking "What the hell were you thinking?". And like I said, that can apply to any crime, to any victim, male or female.

I'm not sure you know the meaning of the word ironic.

The King of Moo

Grayson wrote: »

I never said all of them were. And I realise that most rapes like most robberies don't occur in stereotypical situations. But there are situations where you find your self thinking "What the hell were you thinking?". And like I said, that can apply to any crime, to any victim, male or female.

I'm not sure you know the meaning of the word ironic.

But there's unfortunately not many ways women can prepare themselves to avoid being raped. They can dress more modestly and avoid walking alone at night, but I don't think that would make much of a dent in rape figures.

If you're raped by a family member or friend, as is usually the case, you probably won't see it coming.

Grayson

The King of Moo wrote: »

But there's unfortunately not many ways women can prepare themselves to avoid being raped. They can dress more modestly and avoid walking alone at night, but I don't think that would make much of a dent in rape figures.

If you're raped by a family member or friend, as is usually the case, you probably won't see it coming.

True. Another thing is that there are different types of rape. And by that I mean the motivations of someone prowling around in bushes is probably different to someone who gets a girl so drunk she can't say no.

It's like comparing a mugger to an embezzler.

Grayson

I read this a couple of weeks ago. It's about the statistics that we always hear about rape. It's an interesting read

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/19/myths-about-rape-conviction-rates?INTCMP=SRCH

Millicent

prinz wrote: »

In fairness that reaction accompanies any crime/event, rape, assault, mugging, car theft etc etc. and it's perfectly appropriate. It's how we learn to avoid similar situations. Nobody male or female should have to worry about being the victim of crime.. but that's a fantasy world. We live in the real world where we owe it to ourselves to protect ourselves as far as possible because crime happens... and in some situations it happens more often.

I understand that but it proves that people seek to make judgements about rape victims. "They were dressed inappropriately"; "They drank too much"; "They got too chatty with a stranger".

The problem with this is that it puts a disproportionate focus on the victim and not the attacker. Women who wear burkhas are raped. Sober people are raped. People are raped by others they have known for years.

While it may be human nature to try to sort through a crime by trying to find reasons for it and to make sense of it, it's not particularly helpful and can be quite damaging in that it reinforces the sense of blame that most rape victims will already be imposing on themselves without any outside help.

Millicent

pickarooney wrote: »

Mugging is fairly cut and dried. There's not usually a debate over whether the accused was given permission to smack the victim about the head and take his/her wallet.

That doesn't change the fact that a person's sexual history is not pertinent to a rape case. Prior convictions are not allowed to be used against someone accused in court for fear of prejudicing a jury; why then is it fair to bring sexual history questioning into court when examining the victim?

prinz

The King of Moo wrote: »

The attacker is usually someone known to the victim. According to the latest U.S statistics, only about 25% of rapes were committed by strangers..

Indeed. Children are also usually sexually and physically abused by family members but that doesn't mean you don't take precautions when it comes to others with access (teachers, priests, coaches etc) or strangers.

Millicent wrote: »

While it may be human nature to try to sort through a crime by trying to find reasons for it and to make sense of it, it's not particularly helpful and can be quite damaging in that it reinforces the sense of blame that most rape victims will already be imposing on themselves without any outside help.

It doesn't just apply to rape it applies to crimes of all type. It seems to be only when rape is involved it suddenly becomes a major issue. I'm sure all victims of crime will be questioning/blaming themselves but ways to protect yourself need to be reinforced at every available opportunity IMO and that is extremely helpful to others.