Reform of Third Level Institutions in Limerick?

Amazotheamazing

Going on the first report here, http://www.hea.ie/en/node/1462
further integration of third level institutions, interestly though, they are suggesting cutting off State funding for smaller institutes in some cases.

pg 9
At present Ireland has a significant number of small higher education institutions that are in receipt of public funding. The national strategy is clear in its recommendation that these should be consolidated, where appropriate, to promote coherence and sustainability. It is expected that such institutions will be consolidated through incorporation into or merger with existing universities, institutes of technology or into technological universities. Public funding of these small institutions will not be continued except in circumstances where there are significant reasons of a strategic kind for continuing funding as separate institutions. Where appropriate, there will also be consolidation of institutions in the institute of technology sector, dictated by the requirements of sustainability and quality, leading to a smaller number of multi-campus institutions.


Pg 25 prospective south/midwest region and cluster

c. South/Mid West - UCC, CIT, UL, IT Tralee, MIC, LIT (incl. Tipp Institute),

Lowry blocked the closure of the Tipp Institute before, it was due to be integrated with LIT. Will be interesting to see how this plays out for the Midwest.

gaf1983

Isn't the Tipperary Institute now known as LIT Tipperary?

Will this report affect the decision to have a University of Technology encompassing LIT, CIT and IT Tralee?

Amazotheamazing

gaf1983 wrote: »

Isn't the Tipperary Institute now known as LIT Tipperary?

Will this report affect the decision to have a University of Technology encompassing LIT, CIT and IT Tralee?

Will any such university materialise? Seemed speculative in the papers last week. I think these process will focus the institutions on what their future should be.

Amazotheamazing

Btw, on the Tipp Institute, it was due to be closed altogether but Lowry threatened to bring down the last Government over it. Great for Tipp, but shows how badly managed the education sector in Ireland is.

Kess73

I think the church should be given complete control of education :pac:


But all joking aside is this something similar to what has been done with many of the hospitals? As in close in one place and force all those in that area who needed that service to go to another county?

I must admit I have not read up on what is in the first post, but what is in that post seems to suggest a similar merger system.

If it is as I am taken it, it seems a stategy that in time would see a lot of people who might have had enough points to go to a college in their own county and who may not have been in a position to go to another county to study now having to give up on going to third level.

I'm sure that there are plenty of families who have to scrimp and save just to try and help their kids through college when the college is in the same town, so having that option taken away would be a big loss on a number of levels.

Amazotheamazing

Kess73 wrote: »

I think the church should be given complete control of education :pac:


But all joking aside is this something similar to what has been done with many of the hospitals? As in close in one place and force all those in that area who needed that service to go to another county?

I must admit I have not read up on what is in the first post, but what is in that post seems to suggest a similar merger system.

If it is as I am taken it, it seems a stategy that in time would see a lot of people who might have had enough points to go to a college in their own county and who may not have been in a position to go to another county to study now having to give up on going to third level.

I'm sure that there are plenty of families who have to scrimp and save just to try and help their kids through college when the college is in the same town, so having that option taken away would be a big loss on a number of levels.

Age old question though, do you want a few world class facilities or multiple substandard ones.

Kess73

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Age old question though, do you want a few world class facilities or multiple substandard ones.

Or maybe another way to look at it is do we want excellent education for those who can afford to go and live where that education centre is, or a good level of education all over that is easier to access by people who want it.


As for having a few world class facilities, well I have long since learned that what keeps deemed as being World class in Ireland normally just means better than most others in Ireland, and rarely comes close to genuine world class.

Amazotheamazing

Kess73 wrote: »

Or maybe another way to look at it is do we want excellent education for those who can afford to go and live where that education centre is, or a good level of education all over that is easier to access by people who want it.


As for having a few world class facilities, well I have long since learned that what keeps deemed as being World class in Ireland normally just means better than most others in Ireland, and rarely comes close to genuine world class.

I think a better system would to have proper financial supports for people who have to travel to university. the reason, for example, some medical schools or law schools the world over are seen as better than others is because they can attract both the best educators and the best students. Same applies across the board. If a student has to travel, and can't afford to, there needs to be proper systems in place to support him or her.

I agree wrt to the standard of third level facilities, that's why we need have less of them but at a higher standard. Let's aim to actually have world class universities as opposed to the reasonably average level we currently have.

RonMexico

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I agree wrt to the standard of third level facilities, that's why we need have less of them but at a higher standard. Let's aim to actually have world class universities as opposed to the reasonably average level we currently have.

How do you propose we do this with the current system regarding college places? (Leaving Cert/CAO system) Do you advocate closing down smaller facilities and having less places as a result, or do you propose simply renaming the smaller institutes as part of their amalgamation into the bigger universities. In what way would a name change achieve a higher standard? Or do you turn down thousands of students the opportunity of a third level education because there are less places and more competition/higher fees?

Amazotheamazing

RonMexico wrote: »

How do you propose we do this with the current system regarding college places? (Leaving Cert/CAO system) Do you advocate closing down smaller facilities and having less places as a result, or do you propose simply renaming the smaller institutes as part of their amalgamation into the bigger universities. In what way would a name change achieve a higher standard? Or do you turn down thousands of students the opportunity of a third level education because there are less places and more competition/higher fees?

Well, as a separate debate I think the CAO system needs a serious reform but as is, I'd shut the smaller colleges and increase capacity at the universities/IT's, so no overall drop in available places. It's not really about facile changes like renaming places, but actually having a debate about what sort of third level we want. Obviously it wouldn't be done overnight, but over a short number of years.

Of course the smaller colleges could choose to go it alone without State funding. If they are confident they offer a good enough student experience I'm sure they'll find students. Indeed, the report I linked mentions the role of private colleges within the Irish education system at present.

It'll be interesting to see what the study turns up.

jbkenn

This is another pointless debate, the world has moved on, this may come as some surprise to academia in Ireland, but hey, what's new in that department.
TCD,UCD,UCC,UCG.NUI Maynooth, in their snobbery, do not regard UL, DCU as "real universities" and as for the I.T.'s, spare me.
Some food for thought

RANKING WEB OF WORLD UNIVERSITIES
This is an international ranking, from which the Irish data can be extracted to make a ranking. As of July 2011:
University World Rank
TCD................200
UCC................388
UCD................418
DCU................483
NUIG...............602
UL...................614

As you can see we ain't exactly setting the world on fire, are we?.
Now we can continue to get our knickers in a twist, or, we can skate over here, http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm ranked 3rd in the world, and see how 21st century education can be delivered.

Amazotheamazing

jbkenn wrote: »

This is another pointless debate, the world has moved on, this may come as some surprise to academia in Ireland, but hey, what's new in that department.
TCD,UCD,UCC,UCG.NUI Maynooth, in their snobbery, do not regard UL, DCU as "real universities" and as for the I.T.'s, spare me.
Some food for thought

RANKING WEB OF WORLD UNIVERSITIES
This is an international ranking, from which the Irish data can be extracted to make a ranking. As of July 2011:
University World Rank
TCD................200
UCC................388
UCD................418
DCU................483
NUIG...............602
UL...................614

As you can see we ain't exactly setting the world on fire, are we?.
Now we can continue to get our knickers in a twist, or, we can skate over here, http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm ranked 3rd in the world, and see how 21st century education can be delivered.

Not sure why you think the debate is pointless, the figures you posted clearly show the need for some sort of reform at third level. Where do the other third level institutions in the midwest come in any rankings?

Kess73

jbkenn wrote: »

This is another pointless debate, the world has moved on, this may come as some surprise to academia in Ireland, but hey, what's new in that department.
TCD,UCD,UCC,UCG.NUI Maynooth, in their snobbery, do not regard UL, DCU as "real universities" and as for the I.T.'s, spare me.
Some food for thought

RANKING WEB OF WORLD UNIVERSITIES
This is an international ranking, from which the Irish data can be extracted to make a ranking. As of July 2011:
University World Rank
TCD................200
UCC................388
UCD................418
DCU................483
NUIG...............602
UL...................614

As you can see we ain't exactly setting the world on fire, are we?.
Now we can continue to get our knickers in a twist, or, we can skate over here, http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm ranked 3rd in the world, and see how 21st century education can be delivered.

The first ratings of 2012 are out now.

TCD is still the highest ranked Irish Uni/College, but it is now at number 248.

UL has dropped to 758.

LIT is at 7,758

Griffth College Limerick is at 11,808 (GC Cork is 10,645)


Nothing else from Limerick gets into the top 20,000 places.

Only 49 from all of Ireland get into the top 20,000.


What I thought was interesting is that the Shannon College For Hotel Management made it into the ratings at number 10,586.

Amazotheamazing

Kess73 wrote: »

The first ratings of 2012 are out now.

TCD is still the highest ranked Irish Uni/College, but it is now at number 248.

UL has dropped to 758.

LIT is at 7,758

Griffth College Limerick is at 11,808 (GC Cork is 10,645)


Nothing else from Limerick gets into the top 20,000 places.

Only 49 from all of Ireland get into the top 20,000.


What I thought was interesting is that the Shannon College For Hotel Management made it into the ratings at number 10,586.

Depressing figures, surely a sign that major changes are needed.

Kess73

Forgot to put up a link to the rankings.


http://www.webometrics.info/rank_by_country.asp?country=ie

gaf1983

While it's not a Limerick-specific issue, Ivan Yates had an interesting article in today's Irish Times outlining his ideas, half-baked or otherwise, for a reform of the Irish education system. Here is the summary:

Ten changes needed in Irish education

1 INCREASE SCHOOL ENTRY AGE TO FIVE AND ABOLISH TRANSITION YEAR

2 REVIEW TEACHER CONTRACTS TO INCREASE HOURS AND REMOVE INCENTIVES TO ABSENTEEISM

3 INCENTIVISE GOOD TEACHING WITH FINANCIAL REWARD

4 INTRODUCE COMPARATIVE SCHOOL LEAGUE TABLES

5 CONSOLIDATE SMALL RURAL SCHOOLS

6 MOVE RELIGIOUS TEACHING OUT OF SCHOOL HOURS AND OUT OF THE TEACHERS’ JOB DESCRIPTION

7 ABOLISH COMPULSORY IRISH LANGUAGE LEARNING AND REPLACE WITH COMPUTER STUDIES

8 RENEGOTIATE CONTRACTS IN HIGHER EDUCATION TO INCREASE LECTURERS HOURS AND DEFINE THEIR RESEARCH COMMITMENTS.

9 ELIMINATE OVER-EXPENDITURE IN OUR UNIVERSITIES AND INSTITUTES OF TECHNOLOGY AND REDUCE THE SALARIES OF OUR UNIVERSITY HEADS

10 REDUCE THE NUMBER OF UNIVERSITIES AND ABOLISH THE NATIONAL UNIVERSITY OF IRELAND

And here is the article itself:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2012/0214/1224311742193.html

Amazotheamazing

gaf1983 wrote: »

While it's not a Limerick-specific issue, Ivan Yates had an interesting article in today's Irish Times outlining his ideas, half-baked or otherwise, for a reform of the Irish education system. Here is the summary:

Ten changes needed in Irish education



And here is the article itself:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2012/0214/1224311742193.html

Quite a brave article, some things I'd agree fully with him on, some things I'd vehemently disagree on but ultimately, he's right to at least try and promote debate. It highlights the massive task that faces any proposed reform.

gaf1983

Kess73 wrote: »

The first ratings of 2012 are out now.

TCD is still the highest ranked Irish Uni/College, but it is now at number 248.

UL has dropped to 758.

LIT is at 7,758

Griffth College Limerick is at 11,808 (GC Cork is 10,645)


Nothing else from Limerick gets into the top 20,000 places.

Only 49 from all of Ireland get into the top 20,000.


What I thought was interesting is that the Shannon College For Hotel Management made it into the ratings at number 10,586.

Interesting rankings, but from the intro it seems that the Webometrics site seems to rank colleges' web presence rather than the standard of teaching/research/facilities. While undoubtedly having good online learning resources would lead to an institution shooting up the rankings - hence MIT's (briliant!) Open Courseware featuring so high up the rankings, on the other hand much of third level institutions' websites functions as a marketing/recruitment tool for future students so I don't know if we should pay much attention to those rankings when it comes to measuring the standard of education in the various institutions. Interesting website nonetheless.

Kess73

gaf1983 wrote: »

While it's not a Limerick-specific issue, Ivan Yates had an interesting article in today's Irish Times outlining his ideas, half-baked or otherwise, for a reform of the Irish education system. Here is the summary:

Ten changes needed in Irish education



And here is the article itself:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2012/0214/1224311742193.html

Cannot say I disagree with anything on that list, although I would be slower in hitting the rural schools than I would be with the nine other suggestions.


But looking for the obvious solution to a problem has never been the Irish way. What will most likely happen is that a bunch of supposedly highly educated and high qualified people will have to be brought together in order to evaluate things, and the process will not be a streamlined one and will not be an unexpensive one.

A lot of things will be spoken about by those in a position to bring about real change, then in five years time the same cycle complete with empty promises and copious amounts of backslapping over Ireland's world class education system/Health System/Legal System/whatever is the flavour of the month will occur.

Would have to do a search online but I reckon that the last three governments all made some grand claims about radical changes in all those sectors and very little has actually been done.

Having been lucky enough to have spent time in university/college in four different countries to date and also having spent research time in the US, I can say from my own limited experience that the Irish set up is a good bit behind the UK set up, and the UK set up falls behind the German one, and that the US set up tops that again (The US set up is a bit more insular in many ways imho, but in terms of specific education and the facilities to aid that specific line, I think the US trumps Germany).

What I don't understand about the Irish system is how slow it has been to embrace language on a wide scale, economics on a similar scale, IT etc. Sure there are pockets here and there, but how many secondary schools actually tie in with the types of education that happens in many of the countries in mainland Europe, how many do better than the generic subject choices that are meant to set people up for third level? I know the answer is very few if any at all.

I think the scale of the job that needs to be done on the Irish educational system is daunting though. Pretty much everything from Primary level to Third level needs a massive overhaul, as there is no point improving one level if the other two remain of average standard, and there are so many big obstacles to that.

Religion, mindsets, and unions present huge barriers. Educating the educators is another, and ensuring that the educators are actually capable of passing on information rather than just reciting it. There are loads of other obstacles not least the most obvious one which I left out which is the financial cost of such an overhaul.

Massive massive undertaking, one that would take a decade or two, but one that would be well worth it if the country was brave enough to take that leap.

Kess73

gaf1983 wrote: »

Interesting rankings, but from the intro it seems that the Webometrics site seems to rank colleges' web presence rather than the standard of teaching/research/facilities. While undoubtedly having good online learning resources would lead to an institution shooting up the rankings - hence MIT's (briliant!) Open Courseware featuring so high up the rankings, on the other hand much of third level institutions' websites functions as a marketing/recruitment tool for future students so I don't know if we should pay much attention to those rankings when it comes to measuring the standard of education in the various institutions. Interesting website nonetheless.

The website is a bit like football stats for me. It is a useful tool but not what should define a person's opinion.

What that type of site would do for me is to have me looking at the top ten on it. Then trying to research what facilities it has, what courses it provides and to what level. What % of graduates go on to high level positions in their field (and being successful in those fields etc) etc.

Then doing the same with the Irish ones and seeing what is different with the set ups etc.

Now that is a very simplified way of putting it, but at times the way to improve really is to look at the best ideas elsewhere and then finding a way to make those methods work for you.

peckerhead

The plan to merge/consolidate institutions — what Tom Boland calls 'rationalisation of provision' — is driven solely by economic factors and has absolutely nothing to do with educational criteria.

To keep on repaying the bondholders, the government has to gouge back more money (after cutting HE budgets by 13% this year already), and all the talk about enhancing quality is specious political claptrap. Higher education in this country and elsewhere is increasingly a commodity to be bought and sold (by those who can afford it), and maximisation of 'productivity' — more headage for less money — the only bottom line.