Taking money off rent deposit for cleaning

Howard the Duck

Hi,

I recently moved out of an apartment and the landlord said he was keeping 100 off the deposit for cleaning. Now the apartment was pretty clean, he said there was "dust" so he kept 100 euro for dust.
I just want to know if this is legal or can i ask for it back. Just to note i wasn't actually there at the time it was my flatmate he was speaking to.

not even wrong

This is illegal. The Residential Tenancies Act 2004 specifically forbids the landlord from retaining any part of the deposit except in the following cases:

1. unpaid rent
2. damage beyond normal wear and tear.

Dust quite clearly comes under normal wear and tear. A threat to open a case with the PRTB should get you your €100 back pretty fast.

djimi

Unless you left the place in a complete pigsty where they need to bring in professional carpet cleaners to take care of carpets that have never seen a hoover or something Id say your landlord is just trying to pull a fast one. Even if there is cleaning/repairs that need to be done outside of what would be considered normal wear and tear, they have to be able to provide some piece of evidence that shows that you caused the damage and that it didnt exist before you moved in. In this case Id say its extremely likely that they are acting illegally.

Howard the Duck

Thanks for the replies guys, i thought as much and i'll be asking for the money back.

odds_on

not even wrong wrote: »

This is illegal. The Residential Tenancies Act 2004 specifically forbids the landlord from retaining any part of the deposit except in the following cases:

1. unpaid rent
2. damage beyond normal wear and tear.

Dust quite clearly comes under normal wear and tear. A threat to open a case with the PRTB should get you your €100 back pretty fast.

Dust should have been removed - it's not difficult.

However, the deposit may also be used for cleaning costs:

DR1493/2008 Landlord shall retain the sum of €1,162.50 in respect of cleaning, breach of tenants obligations and invalid notice of termination by the Applicant Tenant

DR1447/2007 €199.60 for bills and cleaning ....

DR694/2008 Landlord shall pay €380.00, being €126.67 each, being the balance of the security deposit of €1,400.00, having deducted €350.00 in respect of professional cleaning fees ...

DR699/2008 The Respondent Landlord shall pay the sum of €550.00 to the Applicant Tenant, within 7 days of the date of issue of this Order, being a portion of the retained part of the deposit of €1,550.00, having deducted €400.00 in lieu of cleaning costs, ....

DR164/2009 Landlord is entitled to retain the security deposit of € 800 in respect of cleaning costs, repairs and replacements in excess of normal wear and tear.

gaius c

Appeal it to the PRTB but really you should be leaving the place spotless.

odds_on

gaius c wrote: »

Appeal it to the PRTB but really you should be leaving the place spotless.

provided it was spotless in the first place.

OP, was an entry inventory done, stating the condition of everything and signed by you? If not, then you are entitled to keep your full deposit, unless the landlord had the property cleaned by someone (professionally) whom the landlord paid and can produce the receipt dated immediately prior to your entry to the property.

The landlord cannot claim for cleaning if the landlord does the cleaning him/her self.

djimi

odds_on wrote: »

provided it was spotless in the first place.

OP, was an entry inventory done, stating the condition of everything and signed by you? If not, then you are entitled to keep your full deposit, unless the landlord had the property cleaned by someone (professionally) whom the landlord paid and can produce the receipt dated immediately prior to your entry to the property.

The landlord cannot claim for cleaning if the landlord does the cleaning him/her self.

In fairness it doesnt matter if the place was spotless or not when they moved in, regardless of whether the landlord paid a cleaner to clean it. Youre not obliged to leave the place professionally clean; so long as you leave the place in as best a state as you can manage and have not caused any damage outside of normal wear and tear that would require professional cleaning (such as steam cleaning stains out of carpets, furniture etc) then the landlord has no right to deduct any cleaning cost from your deposit. If they choose to hire a cleaner once you are gone to give the place a once over then thats their business and at their expense.

odds_on

djimi wrote: »

In fairness it doesnt matter if the place was spotless or not when they moved in, regardless of whether the landlord paid a cleaner to clean it. Youre not obliged to leave the place professionally clean; so long as you leave the place in as best a state as you can manage and have not caused any damage outside of normal wear and tear that would require professional cleaning (such as steam cleaning stains out of carpets, furniture etc) then the landlord has no right to deduct any cleaning cost from your deposit. If they choose to hire a cleaner once you are gone to give the place a once over then thats their business and at their expense.

The property must be left in the same condition as it was when the lease started excepting fair wear and tear.

Therefore, if it was spotless at the beginning it should be so at the end of the tenancy.
If the property had been professionally cleaned just prior to the lease, then it should be left in the same condition at the end - excepting fair wear and tear. If the property had been professionally cleaned before the tenant occupied (and can be proved) it is expected to be returned in the same condition or else an amount may be retained from the deposit.

Cleanliness and wear and tear are completely different subjects. Dust, dirt, grime are all "cleanable" and are seldom considered as fair wear and fear.

To understand all this, it is useful to read hundreds of PRTB disputes to see the PRTB's thinking on the matter.

Howard the Duck

odds_on wrote: »

Dust should have been removed - it's not difficult.

There was a lot of cleaning done to any normal person the place was spotless, I'm not sure where the dust was found. There might have been 5 minutes worth of cleaning needed and that would include a 2 minute rest break, so 100 charge for this is way too much i think. To me it was just an excuse to rip us off.

odds_on wrote: »

OP, was an entry inventory done, stating the condition of everything and signed by you? If not, then you are entitled to keep your full deposit, unless the landlord had the property cleaned by someone (professionally) whom the landlord paid and can produce the receipt dated immediately prior to your entry to the property.

The landlord cannot claim for cleaning if the landlord does the cleaning him/her self.

No it wasn't done but i'll be getting one next time! To be honest it sounds like more hassle than it's worth and i won't bother chasing the money. I'll take it as a lesson learned and get an entry inventory next time.

odds_on

Howard the Duck wrote: »

There was a lot of cleaning done to any normal person the place was spotless, I'm not sure where the dust was found. There might have been 5 minutes worth of cleaning needed and that would include a 2 minute rest break, so 100 charge for this is way too much i think. To me it was just an excuse to rip us off.



No it wasn't done but i'll be getting one next time! To be honest it sounds like more hassle than it's worth and i won't bother chasing the money. I'll take it as a lesson learned and get an entry inventory next time.

Advise the landlord that as no entry inventory was done and that he has no proof of the condition of the property at the start of the tenancy, either he returns the 100 euros kept for cleaning or you will make a claim with the PRTB for its return.

djimi

Howard the Duck wrote: »

There was a lot of cleaning done to any normal person the place was spotless, I'm not sure where the dust was found. There might have been 5 minutes worth of cleaning needed and that would include a 2 minute rest break, so 100 charge for this is way too much i think. To me it was just an excuse to rip us off.

You are entitled to ask for reciepts to fully justify all deductions from your deposit, so my advise would be to go and take as many pictures of the property as you can now (if thats still possible) and then see if the cleaning bill they propose matches up with the condition of the accomodation.

I would definately persue this if you feel that you are being ripped off.

not even wrong

Howard the Duck wrote: »

TTo be honest it sounds like more hassle than it's worth and i won't bother chasing the money.

There is a good chance that the landlord will cough up your €100 with just the threat of a PRTB case.

djimi

odds_on wrote: »

The property must be left in the same condition as it was when the lease started excepting fair wear and tear.

Therefore, if it was spotless at the beginning it should be so at the end of the tenancy.
If the property had been professionally cleaned just prior to the lease, then it should be left in the same condition at the end - excepting fair wear and tear. If the property had been professionally cleaned before the tenant occupied (and can be proved) it is expected to be returned in the same condition or else an amount may be retained from the deposit.

Cleanliness and wear and tear are completely different subjects. Dust, dirt, grime are all "cleanable" and are seldom considered as fair wear and fear.

To understand all this, it is useful to read hundreds of PRTB disputes to see the PRTB's thinking on the matter.

I cant find anything online to backup or refute this claim, so if you can show me a link I am happy to be proven wrong, but as far as I have ever heard or been told it is not the responsibilty of the tenant to have the accomodation professionally cleaned or redecorated, except in a case where abnormal wear and tear has occured. Lets say for arguement sake the landlord spent €500 getting the accomodation cleaned prior to the tenant moving in, it is not up to the tenant to pay for €500 worth of cleaning when they move out (unless they have caused damage to warrant it). Like I said, I am happy to be proven wrong about this, but as far as I am concerned once the tenant leave the accomodation in a respectable state (floors and surfaces cleaned, presses neat (and empty where necessary), applicances cleaned, no rubbish left lying around etc) and the landlord can have no complaints such as stains on the carpets/furniture, damage to walls etc that they can prove was not there prior to the tenant moving in, then any cleaning/redecorating the landlord wants to have done is of their own expense. In other words, so long as the accomodation is left in what would be considered to be a normal, respectable, clean living condition with no damage caused beyond normal wear and tear.

antoinolachtnai

It just depends on what you mean by clean at the end of the day. I think it should be clean enough that it requires no further cleaning by the landlord in order to get it ready for it to be ready to rent again.

mikemac1

When you move in take photos, you can take a few hundred and then put them on your laptop.

Then do the same when you move out

Only takes ten minutes or so and you can have photos of everywhere in the flat.
With digital cameras it's no matter if it's ten photos or two hundred, doesn't cost any extra

If the landlord docks the deposit, well you can show the state of the place on the first and last day

odds_on

djimi wrote: »

I cant find anything online to backup or refute this claim, so if you can show me a link I am happy to be proven wrong, but as far as I have ever heard or been told it is not the responsibilty of the tenant to have the accomodation professionally cleaned or redecorated, except in a case where abnormal wear and tear has occured. Lets say for arguement sake the landlord spent €500 getting the accomodation cleaned prior to the tenant moving in, it is not up to the tenant to pay for €500 worth of cleaning when they move out (unless they have caused damage to warrant it). Like I said, I am happy to be proven wrong about this, but as far as I am concerned once the tenant leave the accomodation in a respectable state (floors and surfaces cleaned, presses neat (and empty where necessary), applicances cleaned, no rubbish left lying around etc) and the landlord can have no complaints such as stains on the carpets/furniture, damage to walls etc that they can prove was not there prior to the tenant moving in, then any cleaning/redecorating the landlord wants to have done is of their own expense. In other words, so long as the accomodation is left in what would be considered to be a normal, respectable, clean living condition with no damage caused beyond normal wear and tear.

The RTA 2004 states in section 16, tenants' obligations:

(f) not do any act that would cause a deterioration in the condition the dwelling was in at the commencement of the tenancy, but there shall be disregarded, in determining whether this obligation has been complied with at a particular time, any deterioration in that condition owing to normal wear and tear, that is to say wear and tear that is normal
(g) if paragraph (f) is not complied with, take such steps as the landlord may reasonably require to be taken for the purpose of restoring the dwelling to the condition mentioned in paragraph (f) or to defray any costs incurred by the landlord in his or her taking such steps as are reasonable for that purpose,

From these clause (f), many leases go further and include a clause similar to:

Immediately before handing up possession of the premises on the termination of this Agreement to thoroughly clean all cookers, fridge, sanitary apparatus and other appliances and all carpets, curtains, floor coverings and furnishings and to deliver up same in the sound and clean condition as at the commencement of this tenancy, fair wear and tear excepted; provided always that breach of this condition shall entitle the Landlord or the landlord’s Agent, to deduct the cost of cleaning the premises from the Security Deposit.

djimi

To me that just agrees with what I said above: so long as the accomodation is left in what would be considered to be a normal, respectable, clean living condition with no damage caused beyond normal wear and tear. Im not disagreeing with you that the place should be left clean when you leave; my point is simply that if the landlord has OCD about cleanliness and spends €1000 to hire a team of cleaners to remove every spec of dust from the place prior to you moving in, then it is not fair or reasonable to expect the tenant to spend the same to get the place back to that state prior to leaving.

Its an extreme example though, and in general I think we are in agreement; the place must be left in the same clean state that is was in when the tenant moved in.

odds_on

I think some landlords like their properties to be professionally cleaned as this is a deductible expense. Landlords cleaning themselves cannot claim for their time but can only claim for expenses.

Also when a professional cleaning company is used, there is a certain minimum standard expected/implied and some tenants appreciate this standard. Much of it comes down to the perceived "quality" of the property. At the higher end of the renting business, there is, IMHO, less problems with tenant/landlord relationships and problems with the return of the deposit.
It is at the lower end of the market that there seem to be most of the complaints to the PRTB. Here, there are more rogue landlords, bad tenants, poor or even dubious accommodation with the absolute minimum of standards, properties with, for example, old heating systems and appliances that have seen better days. Some of these landlords do the least to remedy complaints as it will cost them money in the short term (they don't look at the long term). Some of the tenants at the lower end do not act in a tenant like manner and seem to look at the rented property, its furniture and appliances as easy come, easy go; they don't particularly care as it is not their property.

djimi

Is it fair to assume that if a dispute over cleaning fees went to the PRTB and the tenant can prove that they left the accomodation clean to a high standard yet the landlord is trying to deduct further cleaning charges to have the place professionally cleaned, that the landlord would be told where to go with themselves?