Male Feminists

later12

I think even the many reasonable posters who are disagreeing with the feminists in this thread would take the same opinion about this dickheadedness.

This has been a pretty interesting, calm discussion whatsdman; no need to try and disrupt it by trolling or whatever you're at.

LH Pathe

I am a man's man, yet a total homophobe who can admire a mans beauty.. yet does admire the female form moreso ;- despite displaying more womanly traits

Mans man, womanly traits.. who lives through the keyhole.

Doctor Jimbob

LH Pathe wrote: »

I am a man's man, yet a total homophobe who can admire a mans beauty.. yet does admire the female form moreso ;- despite displaying more womanly traits

Mans man, womanly traits.. who lives through the keyhole.

What the actual ****?

LH Pathe

I am a doctor of the soul and a surgeon of the feet - blankety blank, I had a **** in the fish tank

whatsamsn

later10 wrote: »

I think even the many reasonable posters who are disagreeing with the feminists in this thread would take the same opinion about this dickheadedness.

This has been a pretty interesting, calm discussion whatsdman; no need to try and disrupt it by trolling or whatever you're at.

Ah yes, the OP gets back to agree with people who share the same opinions as his. But I love the spin, which is basically an "ahh in fariness" twist babble

But thats what I love about boards. Say you have 4 users disagreeing (basically ganging up on another whose views arent the same) .. he is a troll. He is a fool. He is immature. He is etc etc.

But I think I should be direct Later10. You know why these guys looked at you funny? because no man with a pair of, proverbial 'balls' would say such a thing.

DarkJager

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

DarkJager wrote: »

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I reiterate the fact that I think women should campaign for more rights and are under no obligation to campaign for others' rights, but if they say equality is so important to them without campaigning for less rights or the rights of others I call billsh1t. I don't particularly care about the rights of men or women in the 1st world, i care about me, my family, and those around me I can empathise with.

Nail on the head right there. Whatever about the larger societal picture, if you **** with or insult any female close to me or related to me, the main thing you should be worrying about is a few letters short of feminist, and you won't figure it out till it hits you in the ****ing face.

Talk about immature.Do you always issue threats to people you disagree with. Sounds like you you're not too concerned with people's rights.

*facepalm*

Read it again and tell me where I'm disagreeing with you.

blatantrereg

DarkJager wrote: »

*facepalm*

Read it again and tell me where I'm disagreeing with you.

leave off the face-hitting would you

Scanlas The 2nd

DarkJager wrote: »

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

DarkJager wrote: »

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I reiterate the fact that I think women should campaign for more rights and are under no obligation to campaign for others' rights, but if they say equality is so important to them without campaigning for less rights or the rights of others I call billsh1t. I don't particularly care about the rights of men or women in the 1st world, i care about me, my family, and those around me I can empathise with.

Nail on the head right there. Whatever about the larger societal picture, if you **** with or insult any female close to me or related to me, the main thing you should be worrying about is a few letters short of feminist, and you won't figure it out till it hits you in the ****ing face.

Talk about immature.Do you always issue threats to people you disagree with. Sounds like you you're not too concerned with people's rights.

*facepalm*

Read it again and tell me where I'm disagreeing with you.

Apologies, i misinterpreted you.

Zulu

As an egalitarian I distance myself from "feminism" as I see it in practice. As a male egalitarian who distances himself from "feminism", I'm often accused of being a chauvinist or sexist by "feminists".

Please note my use of "" around the word feminist & feminism. I use it as I have come across some feminists that don't appear to conform to what I experience as the norm. They are compassionate people with well thought out ideas & have a genuine interest in society as a whole.

However, my exposure to "feminism" has been tainted by people who are loud about it. They appear to be in the majority as they appear to make more noise about it. These "feminists" tend to be complete hypocrites, hiding blatant sexism behind an ill conceived notion of "equality" in order to achieve more for one sex with feckless abandon for the other. It's appears, sometimes, to be a spiteful action, one bread from contempt and revenge for past grievances of a different generation. Frankly, I find it difficult to tolerate.

Granted, perhaps I only hear the loud ones in the social circles I move in, but Ireland is a very “small world”, and I don’t lead a sheltered existence.

blatantrereg

Zulu wrote: »

As an egalitarian I distance myself from "feminism" as I see it in practice. As a male egalitarian who distances himself from "feminism", I'm often accused of being a chauvinist or sexist by "feminists".

Please note my use of "" around the word feminist & feminism. I use it as I have come across some feminists that don't appear to conform to what I experience as the norm. They are compassionate people with well thought out ideas & have a genuine interest in society as a whole.

However, my exposure to "feminism" has been tainted by people who are loud about it. They appear to be in the majority as they appear to make more noise about it. These "feminists" tend to be complete hypocrites, hiding blatant sexism behind an ill conceived notion of "equality" in order to achieve more for one sex with feckless abandon for the other. It's appears, sometimes, to be a spiteful action, one bread from contempt and revenge for past grievances of a different generation. Frankly, I find it difficult to tolerate.

Granted, perhaps I only hear the loud ones in the social circles I move in, but Ireland is a very “small world”, and I don’t lead a sheltered existence.

spice girls style tits in your face girl power **** rather than feminism that

I know I sound reactionary but the spice girls really were a dreadful influence on young girls.

Zulu

blatantrereg wrote: »

spice girls style tits in your face girl power **** rather than feminism that

Thats probably true, however, have they've wrestled the term feminism off the rest, or has feminism developed into "feminism"?

--Kaiser--

suicide_circus wrote: »

The problem with feminism is that 'equality' in this sense does not exist. Men and woman are not equal. People are not equal. Each gender tends to have its strengths and weaknesses. The agenda of imposing this ideal of equality on people, while well meaning, is ultimately counter productive. Of course people should have the right to follow any course they wish in life and not feel pressurised but completely rejecting the natural tendencies of the genders is unhelpful to us in the long term.

Well put

blatantrereg

Zulu wrote: »

Thats probably true, however, have they've wrestled the term feminism off the rest, or has feminism developed into "feminism"?

ah yeah probably has. I said in my first post here that I didn't use the word feminism as it suggests sexism to me too really!

Equality and balance is best alright. Can be tempting to take a dominant role, but the whole is going to be stronger if the parts are both strong self-supporting and mutually-supporting. Plus you avoid parasites by following that philosophy.

biko

whatsamsn and Sindri banned.

donfers

"feminism" as it exists now has been irreversibly and terminally damaged - the vast vast majority of men and women I know want nothing to do with the word and would run a mile in the opposite direction rather than come close to being associated with it

whether all that is fair or not is a moot point, the moderates might argue that their ethos is fair-minded but the truth is the brand is damaged and there is no going back...the loudmouth extremists have destroyed the possibility for those who might have some sympathy with the more moderate goals of participating

the very name "feminism" is polarising and the idea of one-sided equality is a hige inherent paradox that all but the zealots can see through from a mile away

this trhead should have ended a long time ago but the radicals will continue to rationalise and justify until this is locked a sit always is, it's a battle in vain but I'd expect nothing less from them, many of them are precisely the reason why feminism has a bad name - a refusal to see beyond their narrow self-interests, the fashionable pc bandwagon can steamroll quite a lot but they haven't yet managed to convince and hoodwink the western world at least, into believing that selfishness = equality

Dudess

What radicals? I've barely looked at this thread (too depressing) but it's pretty much just Millicent I see defending moderate feminists - and it's pretty ****ing nasty and inaccurate to call her a radical.

And why let the man-haters ruin the "brand"? Why not let the reasonable ones eclipse them?

Nothingbetter2d

later10 wrote: »

Yes I suppose egalitarianism is a better word indeed. But I am not so much concerned about mens' rights as I am about women's equality. There are only a relatively small number of cases where men suffer from discrimination on the basis of their gender (and particularly as fathers), but there is (in my opinion) an entire culture of sexism against women, even in our society.

I think this culture of the denigration of women is more overwhelming than the important issue of fathers' rights, which can be fixed with sensible lawmakers passing the appropriate legislation. The treatment of women in society is not so easily fixed.

obvious discriminations ive observed against men

women only gyms
women only car insurance
ladies free in before midnight in clubs
women & children first to leave a sinking ship. (the children bit i can understand but why must the men be left til last on a sinking ship is our lives any less worth saving than a woman's life?)
women getting alomoney in (usa) but men dont?
maternity leave is longer for women than paternity leave is for men

the last men only golf club (portmarnock) got fined for not allowing women in.... yet there is many women only clubs where men are not allowed in.

Grolschevik

Why are feminism(s) still necessary and relevant?

Answer: this thread.

Zulu

What is feminisms?

Answer: dunno.

dark crystal

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

obvious discriminations ive observed against men

women only gyms
women only car insurance
ladies free in before midnight in clubs
women & children first to leave a sinking ship. (the children bit i can understand but why must the men be left til last on a sinking ship is our lives any less worth saving than a woman's life?)
women getting alomoney in (usa) but men dont?
maternity leave is longer for women than paternity leave is for men

the last men only golf club (portmarnock) got fined for not allowing women in.... yet there is many women only clubs where men are not allowed in.

All Good points.

In which case, why not campaign for equal rights from the people who make those decisions?

I doubt any real feminist would have a problem with you doing so. Equality, or lack thereof, affects everyone regardless of gender.

later12

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

obvious discriminations ive observed against men

women only gyms
women only car insurance
ladies free in before midnight in clubs
women & children first to leave a sinking ship. (the children bit i can understand but why must the men be left til last on a sinking ship is our lives any less worth saving than a woman's life?)
women getting alomoney in (usa) but men dont?
maternity leave is longer for women than paternity leave is for men

the last men only golf club (portmarnock) got fined for not allowing women in.... yet there is many women only clubs where men are not allowed in.

What? All you have shown is that it is possible for men to be discriminated against. The fact that many different groupings (including men, including women) can be discriminated against somehow nullifies feminism? That's absurd, frankly. Are people only allowed be feminists if women are the last group on Earth suffering discrimination or something?

As has been said at great length in this thread, many feminists (every feminist that I have ever met) would be opposed to inequality because they have been acquainted with it themselves as someone who is concerned about the treatment of women.

I am a feminist but I am also concerned about mens' rights as a man, particularly in relation to those men that are fathers and in relation to mens' mental health. Lots of people who would call themselves feminists are politically active and get involved in a wide range of activities.

Do you think it is wrong for individuals to assert and agitate for father's rights? Do you think these individuals don't care about women and mothers? That would be a pretty daft thing to believe, wouldn't it?

Annasopra

benway wrote: »

Do you have hard evidence for the equal pay issue? Because I'm under the impression that it often comes down to some women prioritising family over work, and others losing ground in the rat race while on maternity leave. Mind you, a woman can become, say, the managing partner of a top 5 Irish law firm, not really seeing the glass cieling there. Anyway, discriminatory "wage structures" are, of course, illegal, and properly so.

In 2009, men had an average income of €34,317 while the average income for women was €25,103, or 73.1% of men’s income. When these figures are adjusted to take account of the average hours per week spent in paid employment, women’s average hourly income was about 94% of men’s in
2009.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/otherreleases/2011/Women%20and%20Men%20in%20Ireland%202011.pdf

biko

Even in Scandinavia, often heralded as the epitome of progressiveness and feminism women's wages are lower than men's.

The pay gap varies across the EU and throws up some surprising results. Sweden, renowned for its family-friendly policies, has a pay gap just shy of the EU average (17.1%) because many Swedish women work part-time. By contrast, Italy, a country associated with a more traditional stance on the family, has one of the narrowest pay gaps in the Union, 4.9%, which probably results from the relatively low number of unskilled women in the workforce.

So Westerberg, as deputy prime minister, started phasing in some heavy-handed policies in 1995.
Now two months of parental leave is reserved exclusively for men. This has substantially increased the number of fathers taking time off work, and that has had an impact on wages.

A study published by the Swedish Institute of Labor Market Policy Evaluation in March showed, for instance, that a mother’s future earnings increase on average 7 percent for every month the father takes leave.

--Kaiser--

biko wrote: »

Even in Scandinavia, often heralded as the epitome of progressiveness and feminism women's wages are lower than men's.

Your quote mentions that many women work work part-time. I imagine if you take into account hours worked that it would be closer to parity

ixoy

biko wrote: »

Even in Scandinavia, often heralded as the epitome of progressiveness and feminism women's wages are lower than men's.

OK, maybe I'm mis-reading something here but it's saying that the pay disparity of 17% could be because many women work part time. Surely this needs to be taken account so we get a better figure on a per hour basis? Generally if you work less, you get paid less.

I can't say I've noticed attitudes in my work place (IT). I've had more female managers than male for example and it's quite level across the company. The pay would be the same as well as are the promotional opportunities.

--Kaiser--

ixoy wrote: »

OK, maybe I'm mis-reading something here but it's saying that the pay disparity of 17% could be because many women work part time. Surely this needs to be taken account so we get a better figure on a per hour basis? Generally if you work less, you get paid less.

I can't say I've noticed attitudes in my work place (IT). I've had more female managers than male for example and it's quite level across the company. The pay would be the same as well as are the promotional opportunities.

And another thing that needs to be taken into account is maternatiy leave. If there are two people equally qualified for a job, one man and one woman, it makes sense to give it to the man because there is a certain percentage chance that the woman will get pregnant, need to be paid for 9 months while not working and a temporary replacement will have to be hired in the interim. The chance for this happening to a guy is zero.

It's not sexism, it's capitalism

az2wp0sye65487

snubbleste wrote: »

There is no such thing as equal pay for equal work.
Sure go down to the supermarket and compare which gender is predominantly manning (oops) the checkouts and which is predominantly stocking the shelves or dealing with deliveries.

Go to Tesco and you'll see that there is nobody manning the the checkouts!

Logical Fallacy

ixoy wrote: »

OK, maybe I'm mis-reading something here but it's saying that the pay disparity of 17% could be because many women work part time. Surely this needs to be taken account so we get a better figure on a per hour basis? Generally if you work less, you get paid less.

I can't say I've noticed attitudes in my work place (IT). I've had more female managers than male for example and it's quite level across the company. The pay would be the same as well as are the promotional opportunities.

A lot of the wage gap research is flawed to ****. A lot of them just look at what you were earning by a certain age, a lot of them don't take into account how long you have been in the job.

So lets say you have a male in a job for 5 years and a female in the job for 1 year, they will just compare pay rather than considered things like scaled pay and bonuses over time.

It's ****ing dumb tbh.

Morag

It's called feminism as the first step is to say that women are not treated equally and not held to the same standards as men. That society can and will treat women as 'other' imposing a separate set of standards and assumptions which we have to struggle against.

The notion that all women are better suited to nurturing and caring careers is one of those.

benway

That's not quite what I meant, should've clarified that it's equal pay ofor equal work I was talking about. In any event, I wonder is the pay issue a matter of sexism of a failure of cold, capitalist logic, though?

From a capitalist point of view, why should women have special allowances made if they're going to take substantial amounts of time "off" on maternity leave over the course of their careers? If their focus is going to stray outside the workplace l, why should they be given a hand up as against those who keep their eyes on the prize? Survival of the "fittest" is how this system works. It certainly is possible for women to reach the very highest echelons of the corporate ladder, but a certain sacrifice of family and social life is required to achieve this. As it is for men.

I don't agree with this whole world view, on many levels, and I'm fully in favour of compulsory paid paternity leave, but this is the system as it stands. But I wouldn't regard it necessarily to be a question of sexism, I have seen myself that women can reach the highest levels...if they're prepared to make the necessary sacrifices. In fact, a difference of 6%, in the context of the foregoing, isn't too bad - without a scheme of paternity leave, we can't expect wage equality, and by the same token, I don't believe it's a case of discriminatory "wage scales" either.

I'm still bugged by the low grade sexism against males that seems to remain perfectly acceptable, even among avowed feminists. I listen to casual man-bashing most working days, to me it's unacceptable. But, I wouldn't dream of taking it to a superior, as I'm certain that I'd be told to grow a thicker skin ... every now and again I pull colleagues up on their sexism, in a jokey kind of way, but even then the reactions pitch somewhere between bewilderment and hostility.

If the shoe was on the other foot, and I was the one consistently making sexist comment, I would expect to have the book thrown at me, and properly so.