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Male Feminists

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    #512
    Bad Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,205 ✭✭✭Bad Panda


    Kooli wrote: »
    I believe it's ironic because a lot of feminists including myself would be uncomfortable with the fact that in our culture, women are often seen as sexual objects, whose purpose is to be attractive, desirable and sexually available to men. This can manifest itself in really obvious ways, like the constant objectification of women in advertising and media, and in slightly more subtle ways like the fact that no matter how much a woman has achieved, her body and her looks are always on the agenda for discussion, often before her accomplishments.

    And this objection is not about being sex-negative or prudish, because I would have no objection to discussions or depictions of female sexuality or sexual pleasure.

    But quite often, female sexuality is often discussed from a male perspective in terms of what will be 'done to them'.

    And here, in a thread about feminism, we are talking about which type of women is the best to have sex with. WHich is more likely to do the degrading stuff.

    I'm not saying you are trying to be offensive. I'm just saying that it was such a stereotypical sexual objectification, I assumed it was a knowing in-joke.

    Yeah so are men, get over it. Sex sells etc etc....who cares!


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    #513
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Eve_Dublin wrote: »
    I should also mention K9, Dudess, Windsock and Later10...thanks fellers. I'm not able for this kind of thread anymore (but yet here I am! Haha). I've been labelled ugly, jealous, a man-hater, bitter, fat, frigid etc. way too often when I've waded in (in fairness, with all guns blazing sometimes) and it's unpleasant to say the least. Happened very recently and I'd go as far as saying it hurt and it ruined my weekend and it was completely unjustified I shouldn't let this **** bother me but the viciousness is hard to take, particularly when it's completely untrue...I don't come across that kind of abuse in TRL, not since my teenage years and I don't abuse people on here, not personally.

    I wonder would these people say it to my face if they met me?

    Just for the record, I'm none of those things and I've been around here long enough to know the women fighting their corner here are not man-haters :rolleyes: but have been labelled frankly horrible things for just defending our corner. I'm not playing the victim card but perhaps those who think it's alright to insult someone, even on the internet should stop and remember there's a real person typing away here and you know **** all about me.

    It's come to the stage where I'm nervous typing anything in these types of threads for fear of personal abuse. I don't need that on an internet discussion forum I use to relax. I'm not a complete wimp but we're fecking adults for the love of god. We're beyond the stage of hurling personal abuse at each other.

    I'm only directing this at a handful of posters, not just the ones with a differing opinion. You know who you are.

    Why can't we all just feckin' get along...maaaan?
    Oh yes, the "cast aspersions on your appearance" sh1t. Well I've seen pix of you and you're most certainly none of the above, ya hot slapper ya! ;)


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    #514
    Eve_Dublin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,884 ✭✭✭Eve_Dublin


    Dudess wrote: »
    Oh yes, the "cast aspersions on your appearance" sh1t. Well I've seen pix of you and you're most certainly none of the above, ya hot slapper ya! ;)

    Back at ye, ye sexy trollop!


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    #515
    Kooli
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    Bad Panda wrote: »
    Yeah so are men, get over it. Sex sells etc etc....who cares!

    Let me guess - that Diet Coke ad from the 90s and that ad that David Beckham does in his pants?


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    #516
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Bad Panda wrote: »
    Kooli wrote: »
    I believe it's ironic because a lot of feminists including myself would be uncomfortable with the fact that in our culture, women are often seen as sexual objects, whose purpose is to be attractive, desirable and sexually available to men. This can manifest itself in really obvious ways, like the constant objectification of women in advertising and media, and in slightly more subtle ways like the fact that no matter how much a woman has achieved, her body and her looks are always on the agenda for discussion, often before her accomplishments.

    And this objection is not about being sex-negative or prudish, because I would have no objection to discussions or depictions of female sexuality or sexual pleasure.

    But quite often, female sexuality is often discussed from a male perspective in terms of what will be 'done to them'.

    And here, in a thread about feminism, we are talking about which type of women is the best to have sex with. WHich is more likely to do the degrading stuff.

    I'm not saying you are trying to be offensive. I'm just saying that it was such a stereotypical sexual objectification, I assumed it was a knowing in-joke.

    Yeah so are men, get over it. Sex sells etc etc....who cares!
    Plenty of people do. I just think what Kooli pointed out is a bit of fun, it doesn't bother me. But your reaction is exactly what leads to the hostility being talked about. Sexual objectification doesn't bother me (within reason) but men DO NOT experience the same amount as women do, and if a person writes a long post with thought put into it, they don't deserve to be snidely dismissed like that.


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    #517
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Kooli wrote: »
    Let me guess - that Diet Coke ad from the 90s and that ad that David Beckham does in his pants?

    There was the 501s ad from the 80s with that guy doing laundry in his boxers, don't forget that one.


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    #518
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    I've just decided to become a feminist, now if anyone disagrees with my opinion in future you're bullying me.


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    #519
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Ok, I'll try and disect this without looking like a díckhead.
    Kooli wrote: »
    I believe it's ironic because a lot of feminists including myself would be uncomfortable with the fact that in our culture, women are often seen as sexual objects, whose purpose is to be attractive, desirable and sexually available to men.
    I would say it's a known fact that women dress for women. Men complain about makeup, tanning, spending money on clothes and shoes etc but women still do it. So if you feel you must be attractive, then it's because of how other women will judge you. It really has very little to do with men. But to take it a step further, men want to be seen as sexually available too. Other men don't find this offensive so women shouldn't either.
    Kooli wrote: »
    This can manifest itself in really obvious ways, like the constant objectification of women in advertising and media
    Advertising is what it is. A good looking person will sell a product, it swings that way for both sexes. I'd be of the opinion that if the ad was objectifying a woman, then the woman in the ad obviously doesn't care if she's objectified so other people shouldn't care either.
    Kooli wrote: »
    and in slightly more subtle ways like the fact that no matter how much a woman has achieved, her body and her looks are always on the agenda for discussion, often before her accomplishments.
    Women bitch more than men. Even Meryl Streep picked up an oscar for playing Tatcher and said "Sure I didn't know much about her other than she wore crap clothes and had crap hair."
    Kooli wrote: »
    But quite often, female sexuality is often discussed from a male perspective in terms of what will be 'done to them'.
    The same way women say "Oh the things I'd do to him". If you find someone sexually attractive you're obviously going to think about what you'd do to them or want them to do to you.
    Kooli wrote: »
    And here, in a thread about feminism, we are talking about which type of women is the best to have sex with. WHich is more likely to do the degrading stuff.
    Degrading is subjective. A lot of people, men and women like to be 'degraded'. Some people find it degrading to sunbath topless, others walk around butt naked and don't care.
    Kooli wrote: »
    I'm not saying you are trying to be offensive. I'm just saying that it was such a stereotypical sexual objectification, I assumed it was a knowing in-joke.
    It was a joke though.


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    #520
    Gummy Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,919 ✭✭✭✭Gummy Panda


    Dudess wrote: »
    Bad Panda wrote: »
    Kooli wrote: »
    I believe it's ironic because a lot of feminists including myself would be uncomfortable with the fact that in our culture, women are often seen as sexual objects, whose purpose is to be attractive, desirable and sexually available to men. This can manifest itself in really obvious ways, like the constant objectification of women in advertising and media, and in slightly more subtle ways like the fact that no matter how much a woman has achieved, her body and her looks are always on the agenda for discussion, often before her accomplishments.

    And this objection is not about being sex-negative or prudish, because I would have no objection to discussions or depictions of female sexuality or sexual pleasure.

    But quite often, female sexuality is often discussed from a male perspective in terms of what will be 'done to them'.

    And here, in a thread about feminism, we are talking about which type of women is the best to have sex with. WHich is more likely to do the degrading stuff.

    I'm not saying you are trying to be offensive. I'm just saying that it was such a stereotypical sexual objectification, I assumed it was a knowing in-joke.

    Yeah so are men, get over it. Sex sells etc etc....who cares!
    Plenty of people do. I just think what Kooli pointed out is a bit of fun, it doesn't bother me. But your reaction is exactly what leads to the hostility being talked about. Sexual objectification doesn't bother me (within reason) but men DO NOT experience the same amount as women do, and if a person writes a long post with thought put into it, they don't deserve to be snidely dismissed like that.

    Tbh there is a lot more of male sex object now. Just walking pass arnotts yesterday and you see some semi naked guy selling aftershave. Now that imagine isn't to sell to guys. It's to sell to women who will buy it for guys.


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    #521
    Gummy Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,919 ✭✭✭✭Gummy Panda


    themadchef wrote: »
    WindSock wrote: »
    yokes.

    Her Mrs, ya wanna buy some yolks? :p


    Feminists, pacifists, activists, alarmists ,purists, bull shítartists (yayhey :D)

    (Where are the cool people hiding)

    Load of balls to me (no pun intended) .

    20 pages later the wagons will still be circling.

    My pastry lecutrer used to say, "the sun is warm and the grass is green" and just close her eys as the place filled with smoke :D

    Walk away, walk away ;) through smoke filled eyes, walk away.

    Scrub your doorstep!! :mad:


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    #522
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    TheZohan wrote: »
    I've just decided to become a feminist, now if anyone disagrees with my opinion in future you're bullying me.
    Disingenuous obtuse shyte to the point of looking like trolling. Didn't think you'd resort to that crap, you've more intelligence than that.
    You know perfectly well I and others said this because of a LOT more than people merely "disagreeing with" Millicent, and she explained over and over why she felt people were being out of order towards her (the implying she was a radical etc - utter nastiness) - the fact they disagree with (their own narrow definition of) feminism figured extremely fleetingly. FFS...


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    #523
    jaja321
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭jaja321


    Kooli wrote: »
    The fact that feminism has become a dirty word is testament to the success of those who attempt to attack and corner anyone who declares themselves a supporter of women's rights, berating them and questioning them over and over again in attempt to prove them wrong.

    Now women who are pro-women's rights and pro-equality don't feel they can identify with the word 'feminism' even though that's what feminism is.

    There can never, ever be a discussion on women's rights on Boards without it becoming a discussion on father's rights (which is described as 'men's rights').

    Just like there can never be a discussion about rape without it becoming a discussion about false accusations of rape, and how men are the real victims here.

    So forgive me if, as a feminist, my goal is not to campaign for the rights of men.

    I will not object to others campaigning for the rights of men, nor will I stand in their way. I will not fight to hold on to any of the few privileges that my gender affords me if these are unfair.

    However, my belief in equality and the promotion of women's rights does address issues of equality in childcare and homemaking as well as in the workplace. The problem with father's rights is a side effect of this, and if women achieved equality in the workplace AND were not seen by society as the default primary caregivers and nurturers, then this would have a positive impact on the rights of fathers. This would be great for those fathers who want a role in their childrens lives but aren't being given that at present, and I doubt there is a feminist in the world who doesn't want that. So fathers rights are tied up in the feminist agenda to some extent, but that does not mean that feminists need to prioritise campaigning for the rights of men!

    The fact is that the promotion of the rights of women (to the point of equality, not advantage) would benefit both sexes.

    For those who are saying it is about taking away men's rights, it really isn't. But is it about reducing male privilege? I guess it is. The same way that any attempt to increase equality will reduce the privilege of one group. So it's understandable that some men would resist it, because genuine equality would necessarily mean reducing the privileged position of men.
    This is it really. I believe in human rights and equality for all. Within human rights you have specific legislation designed to promote the rights of various groups of society, because they experience specific challenges in attaining those rights purely based on gender, race, age or whatever. Feminism is a movement that promotes one aspect of this, women's rights, under the umbrella of human rights and equality for all. It's about promoting women's rights so that women have equal access and opportunity. It's not about discriminating against men, but gaining equal opportunity for women.


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    #524
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Dudess wrote: »
    Disingenuous obtuse shyte to the point of looking like trolling. Didn't think you'd resort to that crap, you've more intelligence than that.

    But he's only joking. Granted it is a bit dismissive but still...
    jaja321 wrote: »
    It's not about discriminating against men, but gaining equal opportunity for women.
    It may not be about this, but sometimes it comes across like it because during a feminism discussion a lot of male viewpoints will be cast aside because they're not women.


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    #525
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    It wasn't a joke, it was a meanspirited and poorly supported dig.


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    #526
    Millicent
    Registered Users Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    TheZohan wrote: »
    I've just decided to become a feminist, now if anyone disagrees with my opinion in future you're bullying me.

    Really, Zohan? That's really what you think of me? Gotta say I'm surprised.


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    #527
    jaja321
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭jaja321


    smash wrote: »
    Dudess wrote: »
    Disingenuous obtuse shyte to the point of looking like trolling. Didn't think you'd resort to that crap, you've more intelligence than that.

    But he's only joking. Granted it is a bit dismissive but still...
    jaja321 wrote: »
    It's not about discriminating against men, but gaining equal opportunity for women.
    It may not be about this, but sometimes it comes across like it because during a feminism discussion a lot of male viewpoints will be cast aside because they're not women.
    Well I'm sorry if you feel this way, but this is not the essence of feminism


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    #528
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Some people would resort to any old crap to show the world they hate feminism (well just one ignorant definition of it).


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    #529
    Kooli
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    Smash I've no interest in point-by-point dissections, and I've no interest in debating with a man who tells me what I should or shouldn't be offended by (numerous times)

    And by the way, not all women are feminists, and not all sexists are men.

    For those who think that sexual objectification is 'equal opportunities', I'd welcome you to watch this video. I think it's great:

    http://vimeo.com/28066212

    It is so blatantly and objectively untrue that men are objectified EQUALLY to women that I wouldn't even know where to start in arguing that one!


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    #530
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    smash wrote: »
    Dudess wrote: »
    Disingenuous obtuse shyte to the point of looking like trolling. Didn't think you'd resort to that crap, you've more intelligence than that.

    But he's only joking. Granted it is a bit dismissive but still...
    jaja321 wrote: »
    It's not about discriminating against men, but gaining equal opportunity for women.
    It may not be about this, but sometimes it comes across like it because during a feminism discussion a lot of male viewpoints will be cast aside because they're not women.
    And it's fair enough to express this concern but possible to do so without all the hostile "all feminists hate men" stuff.


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    #531
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    Dudess wrote: »
    Disingenuous obtuse shyte to the point of looking like trolling. Didn't think you'd resort to that crap, you've more intelligence than that.
    You know perfectly well I and others said this because of a LOT more than people merely "disagreeing with" Millicent, and she explained over and over why she felt people were being out of order towards her (the implying she was a radical etc - utter nastiness) - the fact they disagree with (their own narrow definition of) feminism figured extremely fleetingly. FFS...
    Millicent wrote: »
    Really, Zohan? That's really what you think of me? Gotta say I'm surprised.

    Why are you guys ganging up on me????

    No Millicent that comment wasn't aimed at you. To be honest after seeing later12's comments about feminists I now only have a fleeting interest in this thread.


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    #532
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Dudess wrote: »
    It wasn't a joke, it was a meanspirited and poorly supported dig.
    Ok ok... I took it as a joke in the same regard as somebody saying "I've just decided to become a traveller, now if anyone disagrees with my opinion in future you're a racist."


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    #533
    Kooli
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    TheZohan wrote: »

    No Millicent that comment wasn't aimed at you.

    Who was it aimed at then?

    Or was it just a passive aggressive way to dismiss all feminists as hysterical and unreasonable?


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    #534
    donfers
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭donfers


    Millicent wrote: »
    Right, and have you seen the names I have been called and the slurs against my character throughout the thread? I am more than capable of speaking for myself, but don't be so disingenuous as to suggest that because I'm a woman I need someone to ride to my rescue. That's the not the situation and if you think it is, read the thread again.

    what names and slurs are you talking about?

    anything out of order and the mods would deal with it

    try to get this through your head - you do not get special treatment on here and you should not be treated differently from anybody else, if you don't like that a lot of people here disagree with your view then take your debate to tll or something

    but as usual we get the backseat modding, smearing and self-pity tactics from a select few when they can't handle the fact that others disagree with their views so instead of having the debate seek to gain sympathy and discredit the opposing voice - I believe this kind of offense-seeking victimhood suggests a lack of integrity

    if you can't stand the heat (and it's not even that hot) then get out of the kitchen, as proud feminists I'm sure abandoning the kitchen isn't unappealing

    or


    just have the debate without resorting to the crybaby tactics


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    #535
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »
    I would expect that feminists would more often seek increases in women'srights, but the fact I have never come across feminist campaigns for increases in men's rights leads me to believe these so called feminists are hypocryts and equality of gender isn't really the primary goal.

    It is not the only goal it is also about empowerment and supporting women.


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    #536
    Kooli
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    smash wrote: »
    Ok ok... I took it as a joke in the same regard as somebody saying "I've just decided to become a traveller, now if anyone disagrees with my opinion in future you're a racist."

    Well actually that kind of line could be used in a similar way (to dismiss quite genuine accusations of racism by painting travellers as those who play the race card at every opportunity without justification)


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    #537
    Millicent
    Registered Users Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Why are you guys ganging up on me????

    No Millicent that comment wasn't aimed at you. To be honest after seeing later12's comments about feminists I now only have a fleeting interest in this thread.

    Who was it aimed at then? If I have misread you, I am more than happy to apologise. But since the only claim of bullying came from Dudess in support of me, I'm not sure how else to read it.


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    #538
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    smash wrote: »
    Dudess wrote: »
    It wasn't a joke, it was a meanspirited and poorly supported dig.
    Ok ok... I took it as a joke in the same regard as somebody saying "I've just decided to become a traveller, now if anyone disagrees with my opinion in future you're a racist."
    The joke resorted to by people who get butt-hurt when they're challenged for saying appalling ****, not simply because they're "disagreed with".


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    #539
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Dudess wrote: »
    Disingenuous obtuse shyte to the point of looking like trolling. Didn't think you'd resort to that crap, you've more intelligence than that.
    You know perfectly well I and others said this because of a LOT more than people merely "disagreeing with" Millicent, and she explained over and over why she felt people were being out of order towards her (the implying she was a radical etc - utter nastiness) - the fact they disagree with (their own narrow definition of) feminism figured extremely fleetingly. FFS...
    Millicent wrote: »
    Really, Zohan? That's really what you think of me? Gotta say I'm surprised.

    Why are you guys ganging up on me????
    Because of what you said, as opposed to us pretending you're something you're not, which is what folks resorted to in order to attack Millicent. And surprise! No mods did anything, hence others supporting her.


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    #540
    Millicent
    Registered Users Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    donfers wrote: »
    what names and slurs are you talking about?

    anything out of order and the mods would deal with it

    try to get this through your head - you do not get special treatment on here and you should not be treated differently from anybody else, if you don't like that a lot of people here disagree with your view then take your debate to tll or something

    but as usual we get the backseat modding, smearing and self-pity tactics from a select few when they can't handle the fact that others disagree with their views so instead of having the debate seek to gain sympathy and discredit the opposing voice - I believe this kind of offense-seeking victimhood suggests a lack of integrity

    if you can't stand the heat (and it's not even that hot) then get out of the kitchen, as proud feminists I'm sure abandoning the kitchen isn't unappealing

    or


    just have the debate without resorting to the crybaby tactics

    Zzzzzzzz.

    I've decided to start answering posts with the respect they deserve. Congratulations for being the first recipient.


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    #541
    44leto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭44leto


    Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »
    I would expect that feminists would more often seek increases in women'srights, but the fact I have never come across feminist campaigns for increases in men's rights leads me to believe these so called feminists are hypocryts and equality of gender isn't really the primary goal.

    Perhaps its the language you don't understand feminist as in female as in women womens rights.

    OK we go back to American civil rights, was Martin Luther King a hypocrite for not fighting for rights of white men. I would say he had enough on his plate as do women.


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