Male Feminists

later12

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Why should it be to anyone's shame what someone else did or didn't do 50 years ago? Should people with a moustache be ashamed because hitler had a moustache?

The struggle isn't over, sister.

dotsman wrote: »

I don't think you understand what feminism actually is.

Ok. I think I do. Lets carry on.

Bannasidhe

finality wrote: »

Maybe there is, but that wasn't the point I was making. The fact is that women are naturally more inclined towards those roles, I would go so far as to say it's an evolutionary thing. Yes, we definitely see how the idea of gender roles exists in society, my point is that women have the choice of what careers to pursue and trying to encourage people to pursue careers they don't want to is a bad move.

I'm completely against imposing gender roles on children, but that's different to attempting to push someone into a career they're not interested in. Whether someone is being encouraged to be an engineer or a nurse, it's wrong either way, people should be allowed to make their own minds up.

Gender roles are pushed on children tho and those roles do have an influence. Go and look at the dress-up clothes aimed at boys and those aimed at girls. I recently walked past Mothercare and was horrified to see that the dress up costumes for boys were firefighters, superheros, police, doctors while girls had a choice between which Disney princess they wanted to be...

Have you looked at children's clothes lately? Girls clothes are not only sexualised (bras for toddlers - FFS!) but seem to be designed for never setting foot outside the door. Girls get sleeveless dresses and skimpy lightweight tops (9 times out of 10 in every possible shade of pink) while boys get clothes designed to allow them to actively play outdoors.

Or the genderisation of toys?

Children are not being allowed to make up their own minds - girls are being taught that they should all aspire to be princess ( by marrying a prince) while boys are being taught to have active, 'official' roles in wider society.

Millicent

finality wrote: »

Maybe there is, but that wasn't the point I was making. The fact is that women are naturally more inclined towards those roles, I would go so far as to say it's an evolutionary thing. Yes, we definitely see how the idea of gender roles exists in society, my point is that women have the choice of what careers to pursue and trying to encourage people to pursue careers they don't want to is a bad move.

I'm completely against imposing gender roles on children, but that's different to attempting to push someone into a career they're not interested in. Whether someone is being encouraged to be an engineer or a nurse, it's wrong either way, people should be allowed to make their own minds up.

Are they? Are they really? By what science are women evolved towards care-giving? Imposing gender roles on children DOES lead to this sort of conditioning though.

I'll give you an example that worried me lately: my one year old niece being handled a doll and told to mind her baby.

Her older brother owns cars, books, age-appropriate building sets etc. etc. and is actively discouraged by his father from playing with "girls'" toys. Do you suppose he will see himself as the caregiver in future or will she? And which of them is more likely to tend towards a role in engineering? Just based on the lessons they have already been taught at one and four, I would say it is highly unlikely that he would ever choose to be a nurse.

Scanlas The 2nd

Bannasidhe wrote: »

finality wrote: »

Maybe there is, but that wasn't the point I was making. The fact is that women are naturally more inclined towards those roles, I would go so far as to say it's an evolutionary thing. Yes, we definitely see how the idea of gender roles exists in society, my point is that women have the choice of what careers to pursue and trying to encourage people to pursue careers they don't want to is a bad move.

I'm completely against imposing gender roles on children, but that's different to attempting to push someone into a career they're not interested in. Whether someone is being encouraged to be an engineer or a nurse, it's wrong either way, people should be allowed to make their own minds up.

Gender roles are pushed on children tho and those roles do have an influence. Go and look at the dress-up clothes aimed at boys and those aimed at girls. I recently walked past Mothercare and was horrified to see that the dress up costumes for boys were firefighters, superheros, police, doctors while girls had a choice between which Disney princess they wanted to be...

Have you looked at children's clothes lately? Girls clothes are not only sexualised (bras for toddlers - FFS!) but seem to be designed for never setting foot outside the door. Girls get sleeveless dresses and skimpy lightweight tops (9 times out of 10 in every possible shade of pink) while boys get clothes designed to allow them to actively play outdoors.

Or the genderisation of toys?

Children are not being allowed to make up their own minds - girls are being taught that they should all aspire to be princess ( by marrying a prince) while boys are being taught to have active, 'official' roles in wider society.

You do realise the brains of boys and girls are different.

SeanW

If by "Feminism" you mean giving women the same opportunities (i.e. not necessarily outcomes) as men, getting rid of anti-woman discrimination wherever it might be etc then I'm all for it.

However as I currently understand the ideology, feminists want gender quotas in politics and whatnot, and have a Bridget Jones "all men are bastards" approach to life, one example being what we're seeing with the moves to copy the Scandinavian approach to prostitution. But it's mirrored across society where things that affect women are, according to feminists, the only things worth caring about. On everything else they are silent.

In short, the complete opposite of what a free, just and fair society should be doing. In this sense, the feminist-left are as much a threat to human freedom as the religious-right.

Any man who supports this insanity needs to seriously stop and think what he's doing!

That to me is still a pressing concern for a supposedly developed country, as is the poor reporting and conviction rate for rape in Ireland.

That may be true, and is a matter of concern, but remember the Polish men that was stabbed to death a while back by a pack of scumbags? The DPP decided not to prosecute the women that conspired with the murderers, for no given reason. This despite having clear access to incriminating text messages and the like.

The only media person to report this was Kevin Myers (or, if you prefer, Kevin Myarse )

That interesting as I want actual equality

Define "equality."

Millicent

Sindri wrote: »

Aye it is, I remember getting a talk in school from the KAS rape people and learning about the state of the judicial system.

One story was about how a woman was raped and the man received a 4 year suspended sentence and this was in the 90's.:eek:

It nearly is that simple though, empower women and you reduce poverty and child mortality, disease, they can contribute to the economy the whole 9 yards. I mean it really is the greatest contributing factor to solving most of the developing worlds problems, and it's so easy.

Sadly, I've heard worse than that. There are a few examples in the thread I linked to but they're horrific.

I am all for empowering women in developing countries too, but that is something the women of those countries must come to by themselves (with whatever support is needed from the developed world), not imposed on them. It's their victory to achieve and ours to support wherever possible.

later12

later10 wrote: »

A bit like the way whites who stood up for minority civil rights in the 60s were "nigger lovers".

I know it's pretty sad to quote yourself, but just spotted this coincidental way of evading the swear filter... lol

SeanW

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Gender roles are pushed on children tho and those roles do have an influence. Go and look at the dress-up clothes aimed at boys and those aimed at girls. I recently walked past Mothercare and was horrified to see that the dress up costumes for boys were firefighters, superheros, police, doctors while girls had a choice between which Disney princess they wanted to be...

I agree, to a point, but the problem is that some attempts to correct this have served to highlight the need for extreme caution.

Like the story of Sasha Laxton.

Millicent

SeanW wrote: »

If by "Feminism" you mean giving women the same opportunities (i.e. not necessarily outcomes) as men, getting rid of anti-woman discrimination wherever it might be etc then I'm all for it.

However as I currently understand the ideology, feminists want gender quotas in politics and whatnot, and have a Bridget Jones "all men are bastards" approach to life, one example being what we're seeing with the moves to copy the Scandinavian approach to prostitution. But it's mirrored across society where things that affect women are, according to feminists, the only things worth caring about. On everything else they are silent.

In short, the complete opposite of what a free, just and fair society should be doing. In this sense, the feminist-left are as much a threat to human freedom as the religious-right.

Any man who supports this insanity needs to seriously stop and think what he's doing!

That may be true, and is a matter of concern, but remember the Polish men that was stabbed to death a while back by a pack of scumbags? The DPP decided not to prosecute the women that conspired with the murderers, for no given reason. This despite having clear access to incriminating text messages and the like.

The only media person to report this was Kevin Myers (or, if you prefer, Kevin Myarse )

Define "equality."

Where did you get that view of feminists? I'm in favour of prostitution; you can check my post history to confirm it. You really don't want to lean on Kevin Myers as a reliable source either.

Also:

In this sense, the feminist-left are as much a threat to human freedom as the religious-right.

I lol'ed!

Scanlas The 2nd

I'm so sick of hearing the term "equality" I'd love to hear of some people campaigning for arbitrary inequality.

Millicent

SeanW wrote: »

I agree, to a point, but the problem is that some attempts to correct this have served to highlight the need for extreme caution.

Like the story of Sasha Laxton.

Those parents are nutjobs and no better than who they decry. They are pushing a "feminine" gender role on him; that's no better than those who push a "male" gender role on a child at all.

ETA: I may be thinking of the other parents who did this. They refused to let their son wear "male" clothing, like that with skulls and crossbones on it.

Sindri

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Gender roles are pushed on children tho and those roles do have an influence. Go and look at the dress-up clothes aimed at boys and those aimed at girls. I recently walked past Mothercare and was horrified to see that the dress up costumes for boys were firefighters, superheros, police, doctors while girls had a choice between which Disney princess they wanted to be...

Have you looked at children's clothes lately? Girls clothes are not only sexualised (bras for toddlers - FFS!) but seem to be designed for never setting foot outside the door. Girls get sleeveless dresses and skimpy lightweight tops (9 times out of 10 in every possible shade of pink) while boys get clothes designed to allow them to actively play outdoors.

Or the genderisation of toys?

Children are not being allowed to make up their own minds - girls are being taught that they should all aspire to be princess ( by marrying a prince) while boys are being taught to have active, 'official' roles in wider society.

I remember as a young lad I actually got one Christmas a play kitchen with a pretend microwave and stove and all and every morning I came down stairs, ate my breakfast and fixed a pretend breakfast for my teddy. Gawd did my father and brothers think I was some sort of ghey.:D

This here is a good link about child brides.

Millicent

Sindri wrote: »

I remember as a young lad I actually got one Christmas a play kitchen with a pretend microwave and stove and all and every morning I came down stairs, ate my breakfast and fixed a pretend breakfast for my teddy. Gawd did my father and brothers think I was some sort of ghey.:D

This here is a good link about child brides.

Did they actually take the mick? That makes me kind of sad.

TheZohanS

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Feminism at its core is simply the promotion of equality between the sexes. It's come to mean something different due to more radical people adopting the term, but when it comes down to it that's what feminism means. In theory, every reasonable person is a feminist. It's almost become a dirty word at this stage, but it's not and shouldn't be seen as such.

No it's not. Feminism is about giving women rights equal to men where there are instances that their rights are not equal.

To say it is simply the promotion of equality between the sexes is false, if that was true then Feminists would be against women having more rights than men. I have never heard of any feminists campaigning for equal rights for mothers and fathers or equal insurance premiums when men were paying 2-3 higher premiums than their female counterparts.

It's "a la carte" equality.

Bannasidhe

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

You do realise the brains of boys and girls are different.

Indeed - I'm the only one in my family with a PhD - the 'best' the boys could manage was a Masters (and that's in nursing.) So girls must be cleverer.

How is that is relevant to girls toys and clothes discouraging physical play exactly?

You do realise that girls like to play outdoors?
That girls play sports?
Climb trees?

Actually, now that I think about it - I have caps for rugby at provincial and national level while the best the boys in my family could manage sports wise was a 3rd place medal in the sprint (under 12s) on school sports day.

Girls is obviously betterer at sport too.

K-9

Millicent wrote: »

Are they? Are they really? By what science are women evolved towards care-giving? Imposing gender roles on children DOES lead to this sort of conditioning though.

I'll give you an example that worried me lately: my one year old niece being handled a doll and told to mind her baby.

Her older brother owns cars, books, age-appropriate building sets etc. etc. and is actively discouraged by his father from playing with "girls'" toys. Do you suppose he will see himself as the caregiver in future or will she? And which of them is more likely to tend towards a role in engineering? Just based on the lessons they have already been taught at one and four, I would say it is highly unlikely that he would ever choose to be a nurse.

Doubt I was given any dolls to play with when I was a baby or toddler, didn't affect my ability to be the primary care for a couple of years. I think attitudes from parents when kids are teenagers are more important.

I do remember the looks from some women when I was the primary carer though. More cringe worthy was the condescending "aren't you doing a great job" type comments from women!

Millicent

TheZohan wrote: »

No it's not. Feminism is about giving women rights equal to men where there are instances that their rights are not equal.

To say it is simply the promotion of equality between the sexes is false, if that was true then Feminists would be against women having more rights than men. I have never heard of any feminists campaigning for equal rights for mothers and fathers or equal insurance premiums when men were paying 2-3 higher premiums than their female counterparts.

It's "a la carte" equality.

So it's women's responsibility to campaign for the rights of men, is what you are effectively saying?

Millicent

K-9 wrote: »

Doubt I was given any dolls to play with when I was a baby or toddler, didn't affect my ability to be the primary care for a couple of years. I think attitudes from parents when kids are teenagers are more important.

I do remember the looks from some women when I was the primary carer though. More cringe worthy was the condescending "aren't you doing a great job" type comments from women!

Oh God, that is cringeworthy! That kind of reinforces my point, though, that you weren't expected to be the caregiver and it surprised people to see you in that role.

Bannasidhe

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I'm so sick of hearing the term "equality" I'd love to hear of some people campaigning for arbitrary inequality.

Why would we campaign for something we already have?

Scanlas The 2nd

W

Millicent wrote: »

finality wrote: »

Maybe there is, but that wasn't the point I was making. The fact is that women are naturally more inclined towards those roles, I would go so far as to say it's an evolutionary thing. Yes, we definitely see how the idea of gender roles exists in society, my point is that women have the choice of what careers to pursue and trying to encourage people to pursue careers they don't want to is a bad move.

I'm completely against imposing gender roles on children, but that's different to attempting to push someone into a career they're not interested in. Whether someone is being encouraged to be an engineer or a nurse, it's wrong either way, people should be allowed to make their own minds up.

Are they? Are they really? By what science are women evolved towards care-giving? Imposing gender roles on children DOES lead to this sort of conditioning though.

I'll give you an example that worried me lately: my one year old niece being handled a doll and told to mind her baby.

Her older brother owns cars, books, age-appropriate building sets etc. etc. and is actively discouraged by his father from playing with "girls'" toys. Do you suppose he will see himself as the caregiver in future or will she? And which of them is more likely to tend towards a role in engineering? Just based on the lessons they have already been taught at one and four, I would say it is highly unlikely that he would ever choose to be a nurse.

Women are naturally more inclined to be caring, nurturing and to want to clean the home. Women's empathy is far more sensitive to men's, women literally feel what other people feel far more accurately than men due to much better developed "mirror neurona" in their brains. This was necessary to evolve as women were much more dependent on their peers for survival, it was very important that they were good at relationships. Of people around women are unhappy it makes women unhappy moreso than men, so they attempt to comfort and nurture those around them, they are rewarded with good emotions for doing so. Likewise women clean the house moreso than men because they get a greater emotional reward from doing so. There are huge differences between the sexes. One weird one is that women have better peripheral vision than men, probably because they needed to be more aware of threats.

Millicent

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

W
Women are naturally more inclined to be caring, nurturing and to want to clean the home. Women's empathy is far more sensitive to men's, women literally feel what other people feel far more accurately than men due to much better developed "mirror neurona" in their brains. This was necessary to evolve as women were much more dependent on their peers for survival, it was very important that they were good at relationships. Of people around women are unhappy it makes women unhappy moreso than men, so they attempt to comfort and nurture those around them, they are rewarded with good emotions for doing so. Likewise women clean the house moreso than men because they get a greater emotional reward from doing so. There are huge differences between the sexes. One weird one is that women have better peripheral vision than men, probably because they needed to be more aware of threats.

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

I can't even make a cogent point on this, I'm laughing so hard. I guess I'll tell my boyfriend to stop cleaning the kitchen so. While I'm in there cleaning, I'll probably make him a sammich, because that's what I've evolved to do.

TheZohanS

Millicent wrote: »

So it's women's responsibility to campaign for the rights of men, is what you are effectively saying?

What I am saying is that feminists are not looking for equality between the sexes, feminists are looking for rights for women, they don't care about men. They're not on a moral crusade for the betterment of man/woman-kind, they're out for themselves.

The Gender Quota Bill is blatant discrimination yet women's groups have welcomed it.

SeanW

Millicent wrote: »

So it's women's responsibility to campaign for the rights of men, is what you are effectively saying?

No, its the responsibility of everyone to campaign against injustice, or at least to seriously oppose it, regardless of which group is affected.

Millicent

TheZohan wrote: »

What I am saying is that feminists are not looking for equality between the sexes, feminists are looking for rights for women, they don't care about men. They're not on a moral crusade for the betterment of man/woman-kind, they're out for themselves.

The Gender Quota Bill is blatant discrimination yet women's groups have welcomed it.

You know feminists don't operate with a hive mind, right? I don't welcome quotas; I think it's a band-aid solution to deeper problems and introduces resentment into the workplace and the idea that a woman can't get there on merit.

Feminists are concerned with achieving equality for their own sex. They keep their own house in order. I'm not sure why you are upset that they are not keeping men's houses in order too (excuse the gender slanted pun there. :pac:)

Bannasidhe

TheZohan wrote: »

No it's not. Feminism is about giving women rights equal to men where there are instances that their rights are not equal.

To say it is simply the promotion of equality between the sexes is false, if that was true then Feminists would be against women having more rights than men. I have never heard of any feminists campaigning for equal rights for mothers and fathers or equal insurance premiums when men were paying 2-3 higher premiums than their female counterparts.

It's "a la carte" equality.

By ' I have never heard of any feminists campaigning for equal rights for mothers and fathers' do you mean you have done some research on this and found no instances where feminists have advocated rights for unmarried fathers or that you , having made zero effort to seek out the information, have personally never heard of this happening?

Ohh - here's an example (google search time 0.33 seconds) http://www.feminist.ie/tag/fathers-rights/

K-9

Millicent wrote: »

Oh God, that is cringeworthy! That kind of reinforces my point, though, that you weren't expected to be the caregiver and it surprised people to see you in that role.

All these years of Feminism and it seems a hell of a lot of women don't want to give up being the Irish Mammy!

Millicent

SeanW wrote: »

No, its the responsibility of everyone to campaign against injustice, or at least to seriously oppose it, regardless of which group is affected.

Again, the two things are not mutually exclusive. I would have no problem campaigning for father's rights or at least supporting their cause. Is it so wrong to expect that those who are affected primarily by it campaign for themselves? Women, including feminists, will absolutely support them.

Millicent

K-9 wrote: »

All these years of Feminism and it seems a hell of a lot of women don't want to give up being the Irish Mammy!

It's scarily engrained. The closer I get to thirty, the more I field the, "So, when are you going to start having babies?" question, from women and men. Because despite all the college I have been through and all the efforts to get a career off the ground, childbirth *must* be my greatest aspiration.

K-9

Millicent wrote: »

It's scarily engrained. The closer I get to thirty, the more I field the, "So, when are you going to start having babies?" question, from women and men. Because despite all the college I have been through and all the efforts to get a career off the ground, childbirth *must* be my greatest aspiration.

Male attitudes have changed a hell of a lot though in the last 20 years in relation to parenthood, I don't know if that has been reciprocated to the same degree at all.

TheZohanS

Millicent wrote: »

Feminists are concerned with achieving equality for their own sex. They keep their own house in order. I'm not sure why you are upset that they are not keeping men's houses in order too (excuse the gender slanted pun there. :pac:)

e·qual·i·ty/iˈkwälitē/
Noun:
The state of being equal, esp. in status, rights, and opportunities.
The condition of being equal in number or amount.

You've used the term equality incorrectly here, equality means that both sides are equal, not just women.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

By ' I have never heard of any feminists campaigning for equal rights for mothers and fathers' do you mean you have done some research on this and found no instances where feminists have advocated rights for unmarried fathers or that you , having made zero effort to seek out the information, have personally never heard of this happening?

Ohh - here's an example (google search time 0.33 seconds) http://www.feminist.ie/tag/fathers-rights/

Yes, did you actually read the article? It's acknowledging that men are looking for more rights and are in favour of paternity leave etc. It is not championing the rights of men.

Almost 75 per cent of Irish men think paid paternity leave should be available, according to research from Quinn Healthcare quoted in the MetroHerald today.

Men in the Leinster region were the biggest supporters of time off work for dads, with 74 per cent in favour of introducing paternity leave arrangements.

Half of the 1000 men surveyed would be happy to split the time of leave with their partner, with more than 23 per cent saying they would like to stay home full-time while their partner went back to work.

That's one article out of the whole feminist.ie website.