Rangers FC lodge papers to go into administration

Dempsey

Seaneh wrote: »

Lots of high horses in here.

I actually couldn't give a toss about Rangers or the SPL, I'm just pointing out the obvious, the SPL needs rangers, for lots of reasons.

The SPL doesnt need Rangers, what the SPL needs is clubs not basing their entire business models around income that they cannot control. As said fresh thinking and sporting integrity are paramount.

donfers

I think the all spl clubs apart fromc eltic will let them back in, they'll spin it like "on the assurance that nothing like this will ever happen again" and letting them back in will prove how utterly lacking in integrity the league is, something celtic fans have known for a long time

Jelle1880

They'll probably do, but with massive penalties.

Not a clue what will happen now

As for that whole 'sporting integrity' bollocks, we've all heard it before :rolleyes:

Coillte_Bhoy

Jelle1880 wrote: »

They'll probably do, but with massive penalties.

Not a clue what will happen now

As for that whole 'sporting integrity' bollocks, we've all heard it before :rolleyes:

Whats your preference for what might happen next?

General Zod

Jelle1880 wrote: »

They'll probably do, but with massive penalties.

Not a clue what will happen now

As for that whole 'sporting integrity' bollocks, we've all heard it before :rolleyes:

Rangers 2012 won't have heard it all before, they'll be an entirely new club with no history and no titles.

There will still be an SPL. There will still be a TV deal. Football will continue. The Mainstream Media will be doing their bit in the next few days to wail and gnash their teeth and start the push for Rangers straight back into the top flight, but it won't work.

Rangers troubles have only just begun. And Hell mend them for their decades of cheating.

Seaneh

It's going to be hillarious when about 15 other clubs in Scotland and England get caught for the same thing.

The idea that Rangers are somehow the only ones doing this is ridiculous.

Savage Tyrant

RoryMac

Seaneh wrote: »

It's going to be hillarious when about 15 other clubs in Scotland and England get caught for the same thing.

The idea that Rangers are somehow the only ones doing this is ridiculous.

I'm not sure anyone who has taken an interest in this story believes Rangers are the only ones, it is a fairly widespread belief that Rangers are the test case for the HMRC. Celtic and Arsenal being 2 clubs who are thought to have used them at some point, the difference being that both of those clubs are thought to have resolved their issues with HMRC before it got to this stage.

Orando Broom

Seaneh wrote: »

Lots of high horses in here.

I actually couldn't give a toss about Rangers or the SPL, I'm just pointing out the obvious, the SPL needs rangers, for lots of reasons.

Pre Rangers becoming the biggest spenders on the British Isles, the Scottish league was actually a decent standard. Aberdeen won a Cup Winners Cup, Dundee United got to a European Cup semi final in 1984. It wasn't just Celtic that got fúcked over.

there is a really good documentary on Scottish football on You Tube that does better than I can at explaining the nuances of Scottish football.

Coillte_Bhoy

Orando Broom wrote: »

Pre Rangers becoming the biggest spenders on the British Isles, the Scottish league was actually a decent standard. Aberdeen won a Cup Winners Cup, Dundee United got to a European Cup semi final in 1984. It wasn't just Celtic that got fúcked over.

there is a really good documentary on Scottish football on You Tube that does better than I can at explaining the nuances of Scottish football.

link?

Orando Broom

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

link?

Sorry can't link You Tube in work. It is in four or five parts on You Tube, try history of Scottish football.

Fr Tod Umptious

Orando Broom wrote: »

Sorry can't link You Tube in work. It is in four or five parts on You Tube, try history of Scottish football.

It this it ?

Only a Game? The Story of Scottish Football - The Game 1/5

Jelle1880

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Whats your preference for what might happen next?

I honestly don't know.

Obviously I think there will still be some team called Rangers playing at Ibrox, but it will feel weird if they have nothing of the history of the old club.

This goes further than what Celtic did, making a new company but keeping the history.

This will be a completely new club.

I'll have to wait to see how it works out I guess.

As for preference: Dunno, I take it third division will be the best option, I don't think the other SPL clubs will allow us in anyway and I'm not sure I would want it.

As for General Zod: Wait, are you saying that the Scottish media love Rangers and want them back in the SPL asap ?
Deluded or what.

They are loving this, don't think anything else.

Orando Broom

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It this it ?

Only a Game? The Story of Scottish Football - The Game 1/5

That be it.

PauloMN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-dJpf3zOXd4

To the Queen! God bless her.

Coillte_Bhoy

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I honestly don't know.

Obviously I think there will still be some team called Rangers playing at Ibrox, but it will feel weird if they have nothing of the history of the old club.

This goes further than what Celtic did, making a new company but keeping the history.

This will be a completely new club.

I'll have to wait to see how it works out I guess.

As for preference: Dunno, I take it third division will be the best option, I don't think the other SPL clubs will allow us in anyway and I'm not sure I would want it.

As for General Zod: Wait, are you saying that the Scottish media love Rangers and want them back in the SPL asap ?
Deluded or what.

They are loving this, don't think anything else.

Nonsense

Pompey Magnus

PauloMN wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-dJpf3zOXd4

To the Queen! God bless her.

Or as Craig Whyte would put it:

"To the aye Queen aye! Aye God bless her aye."

TheBuilder

According to Paul Clark, history will be intact, player contracts transferred.

the realpigiron

The 11 SPL clubs must vote down the proposal to allow this newco Rangers straight into the SPL. Rangers for their own sake and for the sake of football in Scotland must be made to start from Division 3. The rest of the SPL will have to do without the revenue from Rangers presence, in 3 years time they'll be back. Any other decision will irrevocably destroy the integrity of football in Scotland.

Also, I'm not sure if UEFA will stand idly by if the other SPL clubs take what looks like the easy way out but would be a deathknell decision to allow Rangers to compete in the Scottish top flight next season. Another thing, the newco Rangers FC themselves can and should do the honourable thing too, and start from Division 3 regardless of what way other SPL clubs vote.

It is crucial that the right thing is done here for all concerned - including the newco Rangers - with football in Scotland.

Mitch Connor

TheBuilder wrote: »

According to Paul Clark, history will be intact, player contracts transferred.

so despite what people have been telling City and Chelsea fans, you can indeed buy history. interesting.

Dempsey

TheBuilder wrote: »

According to Paul Clark, history will be intact, player contracts transferred.

Do you really believe anything D&P are saying at this stage?

PauloMN

A new company is a new club. History gone.

TheBuilder

Dempsey wrote: »

TheBuilder wrote: »

According to Paul Clark, history will be intact, player contracts transferred.

Do you really believe anything D&P are saying at this stage?

Never said I believed it mate, just pointing out what he said to the BBC.

HMRC say 'Club will continue to play football as normal, just with a new company structure'

As for the where do we play argument, I said all along division 3.

the realpigiron

TheBuilder wrote: »

According to Paul Clark, history will be intact, player contracts transferred.

It's Year Zero for the Newco Rangers FC. They are seeking readmission to play football in the Scottish league, which will have to be voted on by the other clubs.

Newco Rangers should of course start in Div 3 otherwise the integrity of football in Scotland is shot, and that could have far reaching consequences in relation to the economic wellbeing of Scottish football as much as anything to do with sporting integrity. A lot of fans will simply just not wear it and will turn their back on the sport in Scotland.

No matter where they start, in real terms, just like Jaws 1 and Jaws 2 it'll be a different fish, it'll be a different shark.

Dempsey

TheBuilder wrote: »

Never said I believed it mate, just pointing out what he said to the BBC.

HMRC say 'Club will continue to play football as normal, just with a new company structure'

As for the where do we play argument, I said all along division 3.

Fair enough but what he says flies in the face of reality.

This is from the BBC

The Rangers Football Club PLC is a public limited company registered in Scotland (company number: SC004276) and was incorporated on 27 May 1899. When the current company is officially liquidated, all of its corporate business history will come to an end.

When this happened to Airdrieonians in 2002, all of the trophies, titles and records associated with the club discontinued - a new club, Airdrie United FC took over. Airdieonians' official history ended in 2002, then Airdrie United's took over.

and

Under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006, all employees have the legal right to transfer to the new employer on their existing terms and conditions of employment and with all their existing employment rights and liabilities intact.

It could prove problematic for the newco to maintain the level of wages currently being paid to players if the club's income is reduced. Similarly, employees are under no obligation to accept the terms of the transfer to the new company and can terminate their employment contracts.

Effectively, this means that when Rangers is liquidated, all current players would be free to seek new clubs and there would be no transfer fees due to the newco. However, there could be complications with player contracts under Fifa, Uefa and SFA regulations.

There can be no argument from anyone about the bolded yet that clown Clark spins that bull**** probably so his car isnt vandalised too badly by angry fans!

Pompey Magnus

Dempsey wrote: »

Fair enough but what he says flies in the face of reality.

The whole history thing seems pretty confusing, I have one question about it, The Rangers Football Club was founded in 1899 but 1 of the 54 titles was won in 1891. If titles are linked to the company then why is the 1891 included?

Jelle1880

Doncaster said that a Newco would still have the history of the old club, so at this point nobody seems to know for sure what will happen.

TheBuilder

Before anyone jumps down my throat, this is a genuine question of wondering, The Celtic Football and Athletic Club won the European Cup not The Celtic Football Club PLC which is the current company, is that not a new company?

We formed in 1872 and the current company in 1899, yet previous history still stands, so how can it disappear now?

As I say, I'm not an expert or anything do just wondering about those things.

Jelle1880

They simply changed company, completely different thing from being liquidated.

Pompey Magnus

TheBuilder wrote: »

Before anyone jumps down my throat, this is a genuine question of wondering, The Celtic Football and Athletic Club won the European Cup not The Celtic Football Club PLC which is the current company, is that not a new company?

We formed in 1872 and the current company in 1899, yet previous history still stands, so how can it disappear now?

As I say, I'm not an expert or anything do just wondering about those things.

The difference with Celtic was it was just a name change for the company, the Date of Incorporation for the current Celtic PLC is 12/04/1897. The Celtic Football and Athletic Club still exists, just under a different name. Rangers 2012 would be a completely different company to Rangers 1899.

I am not sure about the question of history either though. Airdrie Utd and MK Dons didn't keep their history, Leeds Utd did even though Leeds Utd FC Ltd was registered in 2007.

Red Crow

TheBuilder wrote: »

Before anyone jumps down my throat, this is a genuine question of wondering, The Celtic Football and Athletic Club won the European Cup not The Celtic Football Club PLC which is the current company, is that not a new company?

We formed in 1872 and the current company in 1899, yet previous history still stands, so how can it disappear now?

As I say, I'm not an expert or anything do just wondering about those things.

Through various subsidiaries clubs would be allowed to retain there history becuase they still belong to the original entity.

A name change is still similar in that your changing the name of an existing entity not liquidating it and forming another.

In Rangers' case they will not be allowed to offically consider their history to part part of the newco but they can still show the replica cups and any other history and such associated with Rangers.

Jelle1880

Eli Manning wrote: »

Through various subsidiaries clubs would be allowed to retain there history becuase they still belong to the original entity.

A name change is still similar in that your changing the name of an existing entity not liquidating it and forming another.

In Rangers' case they will not be allowed to offically consider their history to part part of the newco but they can still show the replica cups and any other history and such associated with Rangers.

Are they not part of the assets ?

Red Crow

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

The difference with Celtic was it was just a name change for the company, the Date of Incorporation for the current Celtic PLC is 12/04/1897. The Celtic Football and Athletic Club still exists, just under a different name. Rangers 2012 would be a completely different company to Rangers 1899.

I am not sure about the question of history either though. Airdrie Utd and MK Dons didn't keep their history, Leeds Utd did even though Leeds Utd FC Ltd was registered in 2007.

Leeds were never liquidated. HMRC eventually accepted the CVA.

Red Crow

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Are they not part of the assets ?

Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking.

Jelle1880

Eli Manning wrote: »

Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking.

I mean: Aren't all those trophies part of the assets that can be sold off ?

PauloMN

TheBuilder wrote: »

Before anyone jumps down my throat, this is a genuine question of wondering, The Celtic Football and Athletic Club won the European Cup not The Celtic Football Club PLC which is the current company, is that not a new company?

We formed in 1872 and the current company in 1899, yet previous history still stands, so how can it disappear now?

As I say, I'm not an expert or anything do just wondering about those things.

My understanding is that it all revolves around the company number. You can make a company a PLC without changing the registered company number. This is what pretty much all football clubs would have done in their past.

However, Newco Rangers would have a brand new company number, the old number would be liquidated with the old company.

Red Crow

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I mean: Aren't all those trophies part of the assets that can be sold off ?

Yeah, you're 100% correct there.

d.anthony

PauloMN wrote: »

My understanding is that it all revolves around the company number. You can make a company a PLC without changing the registered company number. This is what pretty much all football clubs would have done in their past.

However, Newco Rangers would have a brand new company number, the old number would be liquidated with the old company.

CSF

In the same way as Cork and Derry here, Rangers fans will claim to have the same club and history as they always did. The rest of the world will know though.

Is there no hope of Rangers pulling something out of the bag before its too late?

A Dub in Glasgo

I doubt it, the way Green and D&P have gone about the whole CVA business was gung ho as if their plan all along was to go down the liquidation route.

Talk about a warchest of spending next season whilst offering creditors 8%-9% of what they are owed did not help the CVA route

CSF

Am I right in saying that if Rangers pack up and start again tomorrow and get in to the SPL, that they almost immediately become a real force in the title race based on the amount of income they can generate from having a larger fanbase than any of the other 10 sides in the league?

Dempsey

D&P/Green are saying that the players have to join the newco or they'll be in breach of contract. The players union is saying that the players are under no obligation to join a newco as stated in the protection of employment regulations. They really do like stumbling from one problem to the next.

A new company buying trophies doesnt mean that the new company won them!

Jelle1880

CSF wrote: »

Am I right in saying that if Rangers pack up and start again tomorrow and get in to the SPL, that they almost immediately become a real force in the title race based on the amount of income they can generate from having a larger fanbase than any of the other 10 sides in the league?

Which is why a Newco that is allowed into the SPL will be saddled with big point penalties, possible financial penalties,...

Good to see the Celtic fans on here towing the party line.
Technically a Newco will start from 0 with titles, but if a club plays at Ibrox in blue, called Rangers and still draws the same fans nobody will care.

Apart from one group of people, that is.

Dempsey

CSF wrote: »

Am I right in saying that if Rangers pack up and start again tomorrow and get in to the SPL, that they almost immediately become a real force in the title race based on the amount of income they can generate from having a larger fanbase than any of the other 10 sides in the league?

No, the punishments for a newco entering the SPL will be decided by the other clubs.

A Dub in Glasgo

CSF wrote: »

Am I right in saying that if Rangers pack up and start again tomorrow and get in to the SPL, that they almost immediately become a real force in the title race based on the amount of income they can generate from having a larger fanbase than any of the other 10 sides in the league?

You are right if the SPL let them in with no punishment. It is a cheaters charter if that happens

Dempsey

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Which is why a Newco that is allowed into the SPL will be saddled with big point penalties, possible financial penalties,...

Good to see the Celtic fans on here towing the party line.
Technically a Newco will start from 0 with titles, but if a club plays at Ibrox in blue, called Rangers and still draws the same fans nobody will care.

Apart from one group of people, that is.

You are deluded

CSF

Dempsey wrote: »

No, the punishments for a newco entering the SPL will be decided by the other clubs.

Surely any points deductions will only hurt the club in their first season back though? It seems like all of this will only affect Rangers for a very short time.

Jelle1880

Dempsey wrote: »

You are deluded

So far I've only heard this whole 'trophies taken away' bollocks from one set of fans, and that's you lot.

So perhaps you could wait until this liquidation process is over and we know what happens, instead of writing your biggest wishes down and stating them as facts.

CSF: One of the possible punishments mentioned was using a system of using the points total of the previous season as a focal point of a points deduction.

For example, if Rangers get a 15 point deduction next season (in a hypothetical scenario where a Newco is voted back in the SPL) and manage to get 70-80 points in the coming season (which is a possibility).

That punishment would then mean that (provided they set a clear rule for it, which I doubt given the history of the SPL) of those 70-80 points a certain percentage (I've heard it mention 20%) would then be used to determine the points deduction for season after that, meaning Rangers could end up with a point deduction that would be massive.

But that's all speculation, the SPL to this date have failed to clearly state what will happen.

But I highly doubt Rangers would get away with it on a relative short period of time.

Dempsey

CSF wrote: »

Surely any points deductions will only hurt the club in their first season back though? It seems like all of this will only affect Rangers for a very short time.

The punishment wont be just for one season, i can guarantee you that

Dempsey

Jelle1880 wrote: »

So far I've only heard this whole 'trophies taken away' bollocks from one set of fans, and that's you lot.

So perhaps you could wait until this liquidation process is over and we know what happens, instead of writing your biggest wishes down and stating them as facts.

I'm sure you have read all the fans forums! :rolleyes:

A new company buying trophies of another doesnt mean that the new company won them.

Again I'll say it, I dont care if Rangers is liquidated or not. I just want Rangers punished for over a decade of cheating.

But that's all speculation, the SPL to this date have failed to clearly state what will happen.

SPL clubs decide the punishment on a case by case basis