The State of O'Connell St

starviewadams

HellFireClub wrote: »

I'd start with those who Gardai receive a complaint about, who are harassing law abiding people in the city centre. If that person, who is the subject of the complaint, has a string of previous convictions, (convictions which have obviously failed to rectify the problematic behavior of the drug user if they are still re-offending), then I'd make it compulsory for a judge to have to place the person into the medical state facility that can deal with the root cause of the issue which is a drug dependency, once that person appears before them on a fixed number of drug related public order charges.

There is nowhere near enough Gardai to do basic day to day policing currently,there would be none left whatsoever if they were all tied down pointlessly chasing after drug addicts for minor offences.

Overthrow

Over 20 pages long and the only proposed solutions to the problems have been 'round them all up', 'move them on', 'zero tolerance arrests'.

Don't you think that the Gardai have probably already thought of these strategies, ye know, considering it's their job and everything?

'Move them on'...to where?
'Arrest them'...prisons are at bursting point already.
'Round them all up and put them in a camp'...:rolleyes:

Nobody seems to chat much about going after the root cause of these issues and reducing the number of addicts that are there to begin with. If more resources were put in now to curb the number of people ending up leading that type of life, then in a few years a lot of the periphery problems that stem from drug use would reduce.

Of course, it's easier to throw out reactionary/aggressive statements that will only very temporarily deal with the problem.

Before anyone says 'why should the state babysit them blah blah', a crime oriented addict will cost the state many thousands in legal fees, gardai man hours, prison time etc. If those resources are invested at the first stages, then the cost can be curbed early. An addict costs way more than the damage they do to themselves during the span of their addiction - from assault on innocents, to influencing and accommodating others to becoming addicts, the list goes on.

So, one addict prevented has way greater benefit than one addicted contained or controlled.

I don't see why the conversation has to be fixated around the reactionary rather than the preventative.

BFDCH.

I have this plan for dalkey island, have you seen battle royale?...

Overthrow wrote: »

Over 20 pages long and the only proposed solutions to the problems have been 'round them all up', 'move them on', 'zero tolerance arrests'.

Don't you think that the Gardai have probably already thought of these strategies, ye know, considering it's their job and everything?

'Move them on'...to where?
'Arrest them'...prisons are at bursting point already.
'Round them all up and put them in a camp'...:rolleyes:

Nobody seems to chat much about going after the root cause of these issues and reducing the number of addicts that are there to begin with. If more resources were put in now to curb the number of people ending up leading that type of life, then in a few years a lot of the periphery problems that stem from drug use would reduce.

Of course, it's easier to throw out reactionary/aggressive statements that will only very temporarily deal with the problem.

Before anyone says 'why should the state babysit them blah blah', a crime oriented addict will cost the state many thousands in legal fees, gardai man hours, prison time etc. If those resources are invested at the first stages, then the cost can be curbed early. An addict costs way more than the damage they do to themselves during the span of their addiction - from assault on innocents, to influencing and accommodating others to becoming addicts, the list goes on.

So, one addict prevented has way greater benefit than one addicted contained or controlled.

I don't see why the conversation has to be fixated around the reactionary rather than the preventative.

Holsten

It's a horrible, horrible place and I try to avoid it as much as I can.

Grey, dull and dangerous.

frag420

Holsten wrote: »

It's a horrible, horrible place and I try to avoid it as much as I can.

Grey, dull and dangerous.

THis is a thread about Dublin. Cork have their own thread!!!:D

The problem is that all the methadone clinics are concentrated within a 2 mile square radius in the city centre. There is about 7-9 of them. Addicts are having to travel from down the country daily to get medicated. this agian costs the tax payer money for their travel costs!! decentralise these clinics. have maybe one northside, one south side but away from the tourist hotspots in the city centre. Its detrimental to the city development..............

Piliger

So guys ............... who do we all complain to ? Because if we just whinge about it here NO ONE will listen and no one should listen. We need to write to the people that make decisions and tell them !

Odysseus

frag420 wrote: »

THis is a thread about Dublin. Cork have their own thread!!!:D

The problem is that all the methadone clinics are concentrated within a 2 mile square radius in the city centre. There is about 7-9 of them. Addicts are having to travel from down the country daily to get medicated. this agian costs the tax payer money for their travel costs!! decentralise these clinics. have maybe one northside, one south side but away from the tourist hotspots in the city centre. Its detrimental to the city development..............

There are more clinics outside of the city than in it. I wish people would stop blaming clinics on it. I think we have six in the city, sure there are five in Tallaght alone

Rhand

Firegaurd wrote: »

I travel around a bit and have to stay over in most of cities and when Im in Dublin its the only time I dont feel safe. Admittedly every city including my own has dodgy areas but Dublin seems to have its dody area where visitors and tourists stay.

Its an absolute disgrace that you can't walk down the main street without being hassled by some scobe or begged off by some group of gypsies. Im all for tolerant policing but the druggies and scumbags know little or nothing will be done when they step out of line.

Instead of investing money in Bord Failte to promote Dublin we should spend the money cleaning up the streets from the scum who now seem to control it.

Funny, Dublin is one of the cities I feel most safe in. I do everything by walking in the evening, and in almost a year I've never had a problem.

Please, get on your knees and thank whichever God you believe in that you don't live in Paris, Brussels, Rotterdam or even Antwerp. Cos you wouldn't be able to do that there.

Vunderground

Mance Rayder wrote: »

Arrest every addict and put them into a closed mental facility untill they are well enough to re-enter normal society.

Does this apply to alcohol addicts? I think you are far more likely to get battered by one of them from my experience.

MadsL

Overthrow wrote: »

Over 20 pages long and the only proposed solutions to the problems have been 'round them all up', 'move them on', 'zero tolerance arrests'.

I beg to differ. I suggested some pages back following the same course of action as Portugal and Czech republic and decriminalise *all* drugs. Portugal has seen a 25% fall (iirc) in intravenous drug use since decriminalisation.

paddyandy

O'Connell street is a reflection of the state of the Nation ?????

Renn

Who said that?

2cool4school

Overthrow wrote: »

Over 20 pages long and the only proposed solutions to the problems have been 'round them all up', 'move them on', 'zero tolerance arrests'.

Don't you think that the Gardai have probably already thought of these strategies, ye know, considering it's their job and everything?

lash these dirtbags in a camp and put them breaking rocks for a while after going cold turkey and my guess is people will be less likely to get into drugs / scumminess when they see what happens as a result

it is a legitimate solution - but its one we arent going to see put in place

mores the pity

hardline will work if the authorities have the stomach to stick it out

admiralofthefleet

ive said this before - i think the whole area north of the old public toilets on college green as far as parnell street should be pedestrianised, and the buildings seperating d'olier street and westmoreland street knocked. [i know this will never happen as they are listed] but maybe keep the faces and create a square through the buildings (think italian quarter).
the whole public space could then be given a dedicated police force (like city centre only police) and the only through traffic would be the north and south quays although bus/taxi only

i know this will never happen, especially on the northside as DCC have an anti north dublin bias, always have and always will but its what i would like to see

now yis can start slagging me

Faith+1

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

ive said this before - i think the whole area north of the old public toilets on college green as far as parnell street should be pedestrianised, and the buildings seperating d'olier street and westmoreland street knocked. [i know this will never happen as they are listed] but maybe keep the faces and create a square through the buildings (think italian quarter).
the whole public space could then be given a dedicated police force (like city centre only police) and the only through traffic would be the north and south quays although bus/taxi only

i know this will never happen, especially on the northside as DCC have an anti north dublin bias, always have and always will but its what i would like to see

now yis can start slagging me

No chance, I love you man :P

starviewadams

Noticed a much increased Garda presense around O'Connell/Henry and Parnell Street's today.Even saw two plainclothes,drug addicted looking Gardai arresting two gougers on Henry Street.Hopefully this will continue and not just last a few days like it normally does.

Neeson

starviewadams wrote: »

Even saw two plainclothes,drug addicted looking Gardai arresting two gougers on Henry Street.

You sure they weren't really scumbags in tracksuits wrestling their mates over a few little balls of powder-filled clingfilm!

starviewadams

Nah they had Garda radios and were putting the two handcuffed gougers into the back of a Garda van.

Degsy

starviewadams wrote: »

Nah they had Garda radios and were putting the two handcuffed gougers into the back of a Garda van.

So you reckon they were guards?

starviewadams

Yeah I'd reckon so,but they were dressed up like the addicts you'd see hanging around town.

Good idea imo.

admiralofthefleet

starviewadams wrote: »

Noticed a much increased Garda presense around O'Connell/Henry and Parnell Street's today.Even saw two plainclothes,drug addicted looking Gardai arresting two gougers on Henry Street.Hopefully this will continue and not just last a few days like it normally does.

yeah i saw a female garda leaving the station on o connell street today dressed as a skanger with her walkie talkie in her hand

Eru

MadsL wrote: »

I beg to differ. I suggested some pages back following the same course of action as Portugal and Czech republic and decriminalise *all* drugs. Portugal has seen a 25% fall (iirc) in intravenous drug use since decriminalisation.

Hang on a second here, now just how the **** can anyone can say theres 25% less people injecting drugs and actually claim to have hard evidence of this. Are drug dealers keeping books and submitting tax returns now? Are junkies claiming heroin on the medical? C'mon for Gods sake and start questioning these statements.


Its been suggested (but again stats on drugs is dodgy at best) that Portugal, Spain and Holland have the highest rate of drug addiction in Europe with Spain being the import hub for cocaine and Amsterdam being just about the hub for everything else.

None of those countries can claim any victory in their war on drugs. Sure if the same scene was in Madrid the cops wouldn't even be able to arrest the junkies for a search because they cant or even personal possession cause its legal there.

Plain and simple, junkies will go where the dealers are and the dealers will go where theres a steady supply of easy in and out customers. Where do Junkines tend to go? In and around the clinics. Someone said that theres clinics in tallaght, correct and they aint nice places to be around either.

No clinic in Swords or Raheny or Howth or Clontarf or Bayside or Malahide. Do we see masses of junkies? Coincidence?

Eru

2cool4school wrote: »

its disgracful how the guards just ignore the problem as if its not there and theres no problem

Not all problems are for the Gardai to solve. Being a lowlife is not as of yet, a crime. Looking like **** and wearing a hoody possible should be a crime but at this moment in time the Gardai are not the SS and this isn't ****ing Nazi Germany!

2cool4school wrote: »

im embarased being from dublin when this is what visitors see when they come to ireland

Madrid is one of the most dangerous places in europe. The chances of being robbed and injured is higher there than anywhere in Ireland. Ever been to Rome? Gypsies everywhere that harass the bejaysus out of tourists and pull all sorts of scams. London, yep Oxford Street is lovely but walk down the road in Croydon, Brixton or many many other places. I could easily go on.

2cool4school wrote: »

b. the scum have to be tackled and kept away

Define scum? Will it be your own view of whats acceptable that decides who we gas? There was a chap who decided people he just didn't like were no longer human beings, cant remember the name.......


Point being, think before you post and then post a sensible option that shows thought and effort on your part to solve the issue in a reasonable manner within the law.

To recap.
Being a junkie = not a crime.
Selling zimmos, d5's and the assortment of smarties you will find these guys are selling = not a crime.
Being on O'Connell Street for no other reason that you feel like it = a free country and thankfully not a crime.

Personally I like living in a free country and also enjoy being a police officer in one. I did not nor would I want to join the KGB, SS or any other secret police that simple 'solved the problem'.

Oh and yes, wearing a bloody great big yellow jacket does tend to make it a bit harder to sneak up on the genuine dealers when they arrive but folks, they are in and out in a minute. The ones hanging around are the ones that cant be prosecuted.

FreudianSlippers

Eru wrote: »

Not all problems are for the Gardai to solve. Being a lowlife is not as of yet, a crime. Looking like **** and wearing a hoody possible should be a crime but at this moment in time the Gardai are not the SS and this isn't ****ing Nazi Germany!


Madrid is one of the most dangerous places in europe. The chances of being robbed and injured is higher there than anywhere in Ireland. Ever been to Rome? Gypsies everywhere that harass the bejaysus out of tourists and pull all sorts of scams. London, yep Oxford Street is lovely but walk down the road in Croydon, Brixton or many many other places. I could easily go on.


Define scum? Will it be your own view of whats acceptable that decides who we gas? There was a chap who decided people he just didn't like were no longer human beings, cant remember the name.......


Point being, think before you post and then post a sensible option that shows thought and effort on your part to solve the issue in a reasonable manner within the law.

To recap.
Being a junkie = not a crime.
Selling zimmos, d5's and the assortment of smarties you will find these guys are selling = not a crime.
Being on O'Connell Street for no other reason that you feel like it = a free country and thankfully not a crime.

Personally I like living in a free country and also enjoy being a police officer in one. I did not nor would I want to join the KGB, SS or any other secret police that simple 'solved the problem'.

Oh and yes, wearing a bloody great big yellow jacket does tend to make it a bit harder to sneak up on the genuine dealers when they arrive but folks, they are in and out in a minute. The ones hanging around are the ones that cant be prosecuted.

You're purposely misconstruing the facts of the situation now here. We're not talking about people standing on O'Connell Street. I would have hoped that a member of AGS would realise that there are significant issues in relation to crimes being committed contrary to many sections of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 alone.

Theft, aggressive begging, public urination, fighting, intimidation, affray, wilful obstruction, disorderly conduct and intoxication.
In fact, just pick a section and on most days you will get it on O'Connell Street or it's offshoots. Offences under Sections 2 and 7; all day every day.

dardhal

Eru wrote: »

Madrid is one of the most dangerous places in europe. The chances of being robbed and injured is higher there than anywhere in Ireland. Ever been to Rome? Gypsies everywhere that harass the bejaysus out of tourists and pull all sorts of scams. London, yep Oxford Street is lovely but walk down the road in Croydon, Brixton or many many other places. I could easily go on.

I can't talk for other cities, but being from Madrid and having lived off O'Connell street for six months, I believe you are not getting the point here. I won't say you can't be robbed in Madrid (by force or when not paying attention) anywhere in the city, specially in the most touristic places and in public transport (specially crammed buses and the underground "Metro").

There are areas of the city where even locals prefer not to get in, not for crime as such but because of ethnic "ghettos" having formed (and feeling a stranger in your own city doesn't feel good). In the very city center where most bars open till late at night every day you can, of course, bump into stupid people peeing on the street, the occasional fight, and the odd "strange" person here and there.

But the degree of open crime, harassment, nuisance and general antisocial behavior during the day and in the open, most visited places of the city, is something I haven't seen even during the worst years of the heroin epidemic of the late 70's and early 80's. Sure, the junkies around Dublin city center are easy to spot and avoid, you can simply look elsewhere and avoid the worst of the main places they gather and "trade", but it is a very sad thing that locals and foreigners alike have to avoid going to some places in the very heart of the city just to keep them safe.

And please remember someone criticizing something doesn't immediately mean there aren't worse places around. The easy thing to do is what most dubliners (or any other big city filled with crime inhabitants) do: just leave and let the rest handle the crap. Whining here doesn't fix a damn thing for sure, ignoring reality and moving to a nice estate 40 Km. from the problem doesn't either.

HellFireClub

starviewadams wrote: »

Noticed a much increased Garda presense around O'Connell/Henry and Parnell Street's today.Even saw two plainclothes,drug addicted looking Gardai arresting two gougers on Henry Street.Hopefully this will continue and not just last a few days like it normally does.

Fair play to them, but do you think the overall system of dealing with the problem has changed? It's the same old malarkey, Gardai arrest them, bring them to court, if they are unlucky they get a short term custodial sentence, but not before they get free legal aid and a solicitor, paid for handsomely by the taxpayer, feeds the district a load of absolute and utter bóllox about "their client trying to amend their ways and get a job"...

The system that deals with this problem is broken and hopelessly defective, so the problem will never actually be resolved or partially resolved, it's just one big revolving door procedure, where the problem gets pushed from the street, into the Garda station (if we are lucky), from the Garda station into the district court (if we are lucky), from the district court into prison (where nothing whatsoever of significance is done to deal in the long term with what is a clearly a complex medical problem as opposed to a simple criminal problem), the problem is then pushed from the prison back out onto the streets... And everywhere in the process, you have people getting highly paid to push the problem around the place, (Gardai, judges, probation officers, solicitors, prison officers, Dept of Justice civil servants, etc, etc, etc...)

Eru

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I would have hoped that a member of AGS would realise that there are significant issues in relation to crimes being committed contrary to many sections of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 alone.

No, there isnt, Gardai act within legal powers, we dont make them up. The junkies are committing little actual crime and when they commit an offence that carries a power of arrest, its used.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Theft

You have no evidence that the junkies on O'Connell Street are stealing. In fact Im very confident that the thefts are not committed by them. Its locals doing the majority of phone snatches, etc.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

aggressive begging

Grow up and tell them to go away FFS! You need someone to help you cross the road as well? By the way, most beggers are gypsies not junkies.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

public urination

Not an arrestable offence. Gardai would be breaching your human rights if they arrested you during the day for this.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

fighting, intimidation, affray,

Despite media suggestions, affray is actually very rare. General public order aka fighting yes is sadly a common event and when it happens, people get arrested but we ain't everywhere. Numbers cut, budget cut. You may have noticed a few articles over the years about this.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

wilful obstruction,

Obstruction of who exactly? Obstruction is an offence when you obstruct a Garda in the execution of their duties. Are you seriously suggesting Gardai do not arrest people that assault them?

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

disorderly conduct and intoxication.

You realise that alcohol if not what a junkie actually abuses yes?

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

In fact, just pick a section and on most days you will get it on O'Connell Street or it's offshoots. Offences under Sections 2 and 7; all day every day.

Section 2 is begging and section 7 is the cash penalties under the public order Act 2011. Under the public order act 1994 section 2 is not about committing a specific act and section 7 relates to offensive leaflets, etc

What law is it you think your quoting cause none of them have any relevance to junkies?

dardhal wrote: »

I won't say you can't be robbed in Madrid (by force or when not paying attention) anywhere in the city, specially in the most touristic places and in public transport (specially crammed buses and the underground "Metro").

dardhal wrote: »

There are areas of the city where even locals prefer not to get in

So basically what it comes down to is that certain people should be placed in ghettos where we don't have to look at them and as long as that happens all is good, correct?

dardhal wrote: »

But the degree of open crime, harassment, nuisance and general antisocial behavior during the day and in the open, most visited places of the city,

And your all missing my point, WHERE something occurs doesn't change the act or the law. Its not a crime just because its O'Connell Street. Its not OK just because in Madrid its not on the main street.

The vast majority of junkies are not guilty of a single crime.
You don't have to like that, I don't like that.
You don't have to like junkies, I don't like junkies

BUT

You want Gardai to act within the law and I act within the law.
Junkies, regardless of smell or appearance are human beings
Junkies retain the same rights as all other people


Thats reality, you can misquote the law if you want, you can say you saw whatever happening once BUT I guarantee your not seeing as much or dealing with as much of these people as Gardai do.

Want the situation solved by Gardai? Get the government to change the law or introduce new laws and recruit a hell of a lot more Gardai (or possible just stop having so many wasted on stupid protection posts and other ****e duties) then get the courts to actually back the new laws, back the Gardai when they arrest and actually do something when they get a person in front of them.

Piliger

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

You're purposely misconstruing the facts of the situation now here. We're not talking about people standing on O'Connell Street. I would have hoped that a member of AGS would realise that there are significant issues in relation to crimes being committed contrary to many sections of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 alone.

Theft, aggressive begging, public urination, fighting, intimidation, affray, wilful obstruction, disorderly conduct and intoxication.
In fact, just pick a section and on most days you will get it on O'Connell Street or it's offshoots. Offences under Sections 2 and 7; all day every day.

I agree. The Garda need to enforce those laws that we have and clear this lot off the street. They have ample power to do it for all the reasons you set out.

Neeson

Public urination isn't an offence?

Leftyflip

Neeson wrote: »

Public urination isn't an offence?

Pretty sure if I started taking a piss in the middle of the street I'd be pulled up by a Garda over it...