Roadworks: Font & Morris Roundabouts

desaparecidos

Don't know. They had it blocked off for about 30mins.

Around half way down Bóthar na dTreabh there's a strip of yellow dust/sand/grit on the ground. Might have been to cover up an oil spill.

paulgalway

desaparecidos wrote: »

Don't know. They had it blocked off for about 30mins.

Around half way down Bóthar na dTreabh there's a strip of yellow dust/sand/grit on the ground. Might have been to cover up an oil spill.

Heard there was an accident there about 6 this evening. Dont know any details.

KevR

Traffic was very heavy at around 8pm. There was a huge queue for the Tuam Rd lights heading East on BNT. I did think at the time that something was up because it's never usually anywhere near that busy late on a Sunday evening.

The anti-intuitive lane layout heading East on the N6 through the Ballybane lights did cause problems for the dense traffic. Needs fixing!!!

antoobrien

sentient_6 wrote: »

This is how it should work(excusing my crude paint skills!):

I got a good look at this one at about 5.45 last night - the mervue/ballybane turn traffic was backed up about 3/4 of the way back along the red line (it was 5/6/7 cars). I'd image that for most of the rush there could be twice that number waiting. You'd have to stop inbound traffic to allow outbound clear the junction. It'd get messier than it already is.

I hate to say this, but the current lane layout is the only real option given the physical layout of the surrounding land (they can't take any more land, like was done at the other end).

The real problem is the p*ss poor sign with a left arrow but no notion of how the lanes are actually set up. It'd help if they had the same style of sign as the one on the DC approaching from Briarhill, showing how the lanes fork.

antoobrien

aido76 wrote: »

I am not sure where exactly you are on about here. Maybe the airport rd. If so I think alot of people, including myself, use the DC because of the stupid 60KM/H speed limit and the speed camera enforcing it. It is alot quicker to go the DC than the airport rd way. Also the lights at the junction turning up to Parkmore skip the right turn on occasions in the mornings and you could be sitting at these lights for 2 or 3 sequences before you get a green to turn right.:mad:

That's the bit I'm referring to. I live on the Monivea Rd and I use the dc to avoid that speed limit - it's quicker despite having to wait at the lights for 1-2 minutes almost every time I approach them (and then up to another minute on at the Parkmore lights).

The speed limits and junction layout need changing - should have been done as part of the Briarhill change, but hey we gotta live with it.

Iwannahurl

paulgalway wrote: »

Heard there was an accident there about 6 this evening. Dont know any details.

From Galway News website:

SIX HOSPITALISED AFTER TWO CAR COLLISION IN CITY
June 18, 2012 - 9:13am

Six people were taken to hospital last evening [Jun 17] following a two vehicle collision in the city.

Two units of the fire brigade attended the scene of the crash on Bothar na dTreabh at around 6.20pm.

Five men and one woman were taken to University Hospital Galway where they were treated for non serious injuries.

Elsewhere, a couple was hospitalised overnight following another two vehicle crash on the Headford Road.

The collision took place at Cloughanover at 2.20 this morning near the Trading Post.


BTW & OT, mention of the Trading Post on the Headford Road gives me a slight dose of the heebiejeebies. I was exiting there once, and was about to look left after looking right before heading towards Headford, when a car flashed by, crossing the continuous white line at about 100 km/h in a 50 km/h zone. Scary, most especially with two kids in the back.

paulgalway

This morning noticed a car who wanted to turn right to the ballybane rd; he didn't wait on the filter and was lucky not to get hit. Also, thought the speed limit coming of the DC was 50Km/h, most of the cars were doing at least 80km/h others were definatelt closer to 100km/h.

Have in the past week seen some cars turning right onto the ballybane rd going to the right of the traffic island instead of left. I think a single line with arrows on it would be a good idea.

pepe00

so do you think it makes travel any better?

I had no problems with roundabouts, just think they are faster than lights.

kippy

pepe00 wrote: »

so do you think it makes travel any better?

I had no problems with roundabouts, just think they are faster than lights.

Roundabouts are generally faster than lights at off peak times for everyone using them, however at peak times lights can be controlled and in theory will speed up the commute of MOST people using that junction.
To be fair, that is what I have seen happen at the junction at briarhill.

pepe00

when I see how big are those junction now, comparing to those small roundabouts that where in place few weeks ago... cant belive it is the same place

pepe00

some German cities go different direction and change lights into roundabouts ...

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20110311-33651.html

what_traffic

pepe00 wrote: »

when I see how big are those junction now, comparing to those small roundabouts that where in place few weeks ago... cant belive it is the same place

Thats not true. If you look at the plans the roundabouts are still outlined and took up a large amount of space.
http://www.galwaycity.ie/N6/130212_02.pdf
I rest my case

antoobrien

The original plans are (still) available on the Galway city website, including (something I confess to having missed before) an analysis of the traffic flows at each junction during peak hours (see section 2.3 of the doc).

It explains why some decisions have been made - including the reasons for the layout of the right turn to Ballybane (from Tuam Rd direction) that's frustrating a lot of people. Interestingly this was originally only supposed to be a 3 lane junction not the 4 lane layout that we have today.

Interestingly, despite it only being single carriageway, the
Tuam Rd handles 2/3 of the amount of (outbound) traffic that BNT does during the afternoon rush.

What I can't figure out is that if they had the traffic flows (as seems to be clear from this that hey had), why the hell did they need to "go dumb" with the lights instead of having the "smart" flow models ready to go.

galwaycyclist

pepe00 wrote: »

some German cities go different direction and change lights into roundabouts ...

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20110311-33651.html

Not the same thing. They are using roundabouts that provide for cyclists and pedestrians - something that the GTU opposes.

Cologne, for example, has replaced 200 traffic lights with roundabouts and zebra stripes in the past several years, a move which could save the city almost 4 million in energy and maintenance costs, according to the citys own estimates. A further 90 traffic light eliminations are still expected

This type of solution could also be applied at a lot of Galways roundabouts at fraction of the cost of converting to traffic lights. (Although the Font and Morris may not have been candidates)

antoobrien

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Not the same thing.

German Cyclists’ Federation seem to think it's a good idea.

Among groups in favour of a large-scale switch, the German Cyclists’ Federation (ADFC) has a prominent voice.

“We absolutely support the trend,” said ADFC traffic expert Wilhelm Hörmann.

Hörmann added that traffic lights provide a false illusion of safety, pointing to the dangers of impatient drivers and children who cross the street despite there being a red light.

galwaycyclist

antoobrien wrote: »

German Cyclists’ Federation seem to think it's a good idea.

So does the Galway Cycling Campaign and Cyclist.ie

antoobrien

galwaycyclist wrote: »

So does the Galway Cycling Campaign and Cyclist.ie

just as a matter of interest could you post links to what the Germans are proposing/doing as details are lacking in the article quoted, but I don't see anything that suggests the roundabouts are any different to our own.

galwaycyclist

antoobrien wrote: »

just as a matter of interest could you post links to what the Germans are proposing/doing as details are lacking in the article quoted, but I don't see anything that suggests the roundabouts are any different to our own.

http://www.teachamerica.com/roundabouts/RA055A_ppr_Brilon.pdf

Do a google on Werner Brilon as well

However, I should note that an underlying assumption of German roundabout design is the presence of an effective National Police Service and an effective system of driver training - neither of which may apply in this country at this time. They also assume a system of speed enforcement in urban areas - something that again may not apply in Ireland.

I should also note that under German law motorists are specifically liable for their behaviour around vulnerable road users - particularly children. Indeed a German motorist encountering children is required to lift their foot off the accelerator and cover their brakes. Something we also favour given that Ireland is historically one of the most dangerous countries in Western Europe in which to be a child pedestrian.

galwaycyclist

Might be easier to get - based on a Power point

http://www.nmfv.dk/PDF-filer/Vejnormalgruppen/Seminar_stockholm_juli_2011/RDC_Germany.pdf

antoobrien

galwaycyclist wrote: »

http://www.nmfv.dk/PDF-filer/Vejnormalgruppen/Seminar_stockholm_juli_2011/RDC_Germany.pdf

Thanks for the links.

Being a few years newer there's a fair bit of extra info in the ppt. I like the look of the Turbo roundabout - no lane changes on the roundabout (that'd give people here heart attacks).

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Not the same thing. They are using roundabouts that provide for cyclists and pedestrians - something that the GTU opposes.

At the risk of dragging this o.t. (a different thread perhaps) how would those designs fit into the precedence rules we have here? It's worth remembering that the German rules are inverted to the ones we inherited from the UK (there's less point in taking the European rules as we're more likely to drive in the UK than Europe) - it being closer and all that.

galwaycyclist

antoobrien wrote: »

Thanks for the links.

At the risk of dragging this o.t. (a different thread perhaps) how would those designs fit into the precedence rules we have here? It's worth remembering that the German rules are inverted to the ones we inherited from the UK (there's less point in taking the European rules as we're more likely to drive in the UK than Europe) - it being closer and all that.

AFAIK the Germans use our type of priority rules on all roundabouts - eg traffic on the roundabout gets priority over entering traffic. I would argue that away from roundabouts we should forget the UK and that we should go for standard German/French type priority - eg yield to entering traffic - in 30km/h zones and shared space schemes but that is getting way off "Morris Font" territory.

antoobrien

galwaycyclist wrote: »

AFAIK the Germans use our type of priority rules on all roundabouts - eg traffic on the roundabout gets priority over entering traffic. I would argue that away from roundabouts we should forget the UK and that we should go for standard German/French type priority - eg yield to entering traffic - in 30km/h zones and shared space schemes but that is getting way off "Morris Font" territory.

Sorry to keep this going but those two statements look contradictory to me. Is the second german a mistake, should it be dutch (don't know have not driven/cycled in either country)?

galwaycyclist

antoobrien wrote: »

Sorry to keep this going but those two statements look contradictory to me. Is the second german a mistake, should it be dutch (don't know have not driven/cycled in either country)?

No (although the same law applies in the Netherlands). The base law on yielding in France, Germany, the Netherlands etc is that traffic entering a road from the right, eg from a side road, gets priority over traffic travelling straight. Our traffic law assumes that straight-on or "main rd" traffic gets priority.

In order to create a road which has priority over side roads, the Germans etc use a sign that looks like yellow diamond with a white border. In practice, most of their main roads operate according to the same priority assumptions as we do (because they have this sign). But on minor roads, or a "shared space" type scheme with no road signs or road markings, then the base rules apply and you are supposed to slow down and let other drivers turn out.

If we were to do it then it would be "priority to the left" or "cede to traffic entering from the left".

antoobrien

galwaycyclist wrote: »

No (although the same law applies in the Netherlands). The base law on yielding in France, Germany, the Netherlands etc is that traffic entering a road from the right, eg from a side road, gets priority over traffic travelling straight. Our traffic law assumes that straight-on or "main rd" traffic gets priority.

In order to create a road which has priority over side roads, the Germans etc use a sign that looks like yellow diamond with a white border. In practice, most of their main roads operate according to the same priority assumptions as we do (because they have this sign). But on minor roads, or a "shared space" type scheme with no road signs or road markings, then the base rules apply and you are supposed to slow down and let other drivers turn out.

If we were to do it then it would be "priority to the left" or "cede to traffic entering from the left".

So basically you want us to invert the priority of the roads system for the benefit of the vast minority of the users.

galwaycyclist

antoobrien wrote: »

So basically you want us to invert the priority of the roads system for the benefit of the vast minority of the users.

Ahh you were just looking for an excuse to pick a fight with somebody - sorry misunderstood.

antoobrien

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Ahh you were just looking for an excuse to pick a fight with somebody - sorry misunderstood.

yeah, it's particularly badly worded isn't it.:o

What I'm trying to get at is changing the expections of road users can cause confusions and potentially be dangerous. If we inverted the priorities you'd get some people remembering, some forgetting potentially causing collisions.

Take the example with the right turn to Mervue/Ballybane here. For some reason there's an expection that one can stay in the right lane to stay on the N6 (which was never really valid - the only RAB east of the corrib that one should have been in the right lane for the 2nd exit was briarhill). Because of the expectation of te ability to go straigh, confusion has ensued. And as anyone that's been using roads for a while will know, confusion on the roads can be dangerous.

Add the fact that cyclists wear protection, unlike vehicles which are surrounded by it, the proposal could be more dangerous than it appears - despite being aimed at cyclists.

what_traffic

Are these junctions finished now?

kippy

what_traffic wrote: »

Are these junctions finished now?

They are open and almost finish, there seems to be a few small bits of work left to be done at them, landscaping and the looks of it.

pepe00

I am waiting for a feedback if its better for people

kippy

pepe00 wrote: »

I am waiting for a feedback if its better for people

I think I have something on this thread already but I would use the junction at briarhill fairly regularily (usually accessing it from both sides of the monivea road)
I do think that at rush hour the people on the dual carriageway and entering parkmore etc are definetly better off than with the roundabout. Even coming out of parkmore is probably better off as well. In general, at peak times I reckon most drivers are better off. Off peak the lights will hold you up, but not for too long. The sequences seem pretty good tbh.

I think there will be less accidents in the long run, but any accidents may be more serious than those that happened at the roundabouts.

I can only assume there will be similiar stories at the two new junctions as it does make sense that in theory signal controlled should work better however it might take a few weeks to get things right.

The next 6 weeks are going to test the three new signalised junctions and the seamus quirke road junctions but without the entire dual carriage way (including the quincentennial and headford road roundabouts changed to signalised junctions) signalised there are still major bottlenecks.